If I wanted to play TK blades, why would I choose Id Mastery, which is paranormal melee only, when it gives 5-6% less damage than ego form which will boost Tk blades as well as other things.
Okay, just went and did a bunch of testing on comparative damages between melee types that are current considered the kings of spike damage (dragon's claws/wrath), and the two big TK blade attacks annihilation and breech. This also meant for the purpose of the test I could stick with just DEX/EGO without trying to work in how a STR/CON enrage might or heavy weapons toon would work in.
I apologize that my stats for the test weren't perfect. I was trying to get balanced dex/ego and that made it hard to get back to 70+ STR. I even tried using the free gift boxes on test, but after 40-50 of 'em, I just meh and got down to testing.
Initially I was also going to do a full on DPS test. I gave that up when I realized that both MA attacks could spam fully charged attacks forever whereas the TK attacks could not.
relevant stats:
STR 53
DEX 255
EGO 252
(oh, a side note based on the fun stuff from last patch's stat discussion: critical chance 36.4 severity 87.4)
For the two MA attacks, I had both Way of the Warrior and 8 stacks of Focus from Form of the Tempest
For the two ego blade attacks, I tested with both ego passives and Mental Discipline
All damage ranges are for critical hits only (rounded to 100's):
Dragon's Wrath: 6400-7900
Dragon's Claws: 8000-9600
EBA w/ Ego : 7100 - 8700*
EBA w/ Id: 7200 - 9400*
EBB w/ Ego: 7600 - 8900**
EBB w/ Id: 7800 - 9600**
*Ego Blade Annihilation damage is split into two attacks. The first attack was ~5-6k in damage. The second was ~2-3k.
**Ego Blade Breech is split into two approximately equal attacks. The high end of the range benefited greatly from the built-in debuff stacks.
If I'd done the DPS test I initially planned, the ego attacks wouldn't have been in the running. Even using Ego Reverberation and having the cost reduction of max leech stacks, they couldn't spam fully charged attacks like MA did without a passive. This meant that EBB had to pause every third attack or so for a second or two to let the EB run. EBB also had to wait for its full 3 stacks of debuff before it really got working.
EBA in a DPS test would be horribad as it eats all the leech stacks forcing a quick spam of TK Burst to get them back (side note: TK Burst as a leech applier is perfectly spammable and hence, a good support power as is). EBA also suffers a bit since I don't think the second attack gets as much benefit from ID Mastery as the first attack does. This is also my theory on why EBA slightly underperformed EBB with the "melee" ego passive.
For TK blades, It's likely the best possible attack sequence is TK Burst x5, EBB x2, EBA. The best possible attack sequence for MA is DW x whatever or DC x whatever. I'm okay with differing levels of complexity in attack sequences, but there really should be some reward for taking the harder path. In this case, there's really not.
The ego damage ranges seem okay until you factor in their split nature and damage reduction powers like IDF and Invuln which will get to reduce them twice. And again, it took the debuff stacks of EBB to get into line with what a melee power should be doing (I consider the wrath and claws to be good baselines for what all top end melee attacks should do since they are slightly better than the top end ranged attacks).
My suggestions:
1. Get rid of the split damage in EBB entirely. Two approx equal attacks weakens it unnecessarily. Plus, it doesn't fit the animation. Then buff the damage slightly.
2. Buff EB Annihilation. If it's going to eat leech stacks and leave you doing lower DPS afterwards, it better be worth it.
3. Buff Ego Reverberation. It's not as good as MSA, Spirit Reverb, Thermal Reverb, or apparently the combination of Rush from dragon's and focus from MA forms.
4. Look at the differences between Ego Mastery and Id Mastery. As things stand, the slight damage buff doesn't seem to be worth the melee focus of Id, especially in a set with so many ranged attacks.
Hey while we're working on changes particular to the mentalist framework; is there any chance that the advantage to psychic vortex get any love? Cause as of now it's hardly or bearably noticeable one bit duiring combat. It's actually a pretty clever power yet it seems to get virtually no love . I would like to have a reason to use it more often than not is all.
Also a graphical glow of some kind while mental discipline is active would be groovy too
Yes, but they get the damage bonus now. Instead of getting an 8% bonus to crit chance, they get a 42% increase to damage.
Right. I see what you did there. The making it affect all damage means an overall damage increase, because crits are chance. Still gonna make some people upset who used it as an overall crit increase, but this makes sense for damage.
Hey Ame mind looking at the Kinetic Darts advantage that procs a Surge now? Incisive Wit. Seems less reason to keep it from appearing with another energy now and might not need that old nerf? People used to use Wit for blades and triple stack energy forms and damage increases, but is that still a concern? The advantage is basically not used as a result because of the nerf.
Also would you mind clarifying how Ego and Str will work now? For a non crit based character who uses blades (Do they exist?) do you just need 70 Ego for max melee blades bonus just like Str?
And having now read the thread on the ID - Ego mastery thing and checking my toon on test...
Ego says 75% buff for all paranormal. Id says 74% buff for melee paranormal.
That's not what happened in testing. What happened is that both EBB and EBA got a wee bit better with ID on their melee part. The EBA secondary damage didn't seem to change at all between the two forms.
TK shield advantage should be buffed/changed somehow. a lingering dmg resistance to only physical dmg is not really, err not all that great. not all mobs hit with physical dmg, thus really rendering the dmg resistance of this adv work in certain situations. The adv could instead provide a lingering resistance to all dmg, or something that will help the framework.
/agree
Force Sheath & Lazer Knight much better, both good for TK & ID.
1. Get rid of the split damage in EBB entirely. Two approx equal attacks weakens it unnecessarily. Plus, it doesn't fit the animation. Then buff the damage slightly.
Uh, you stab your sword(s) into the guy and tear them out. How does the animation not fit?
And I think if you ask around, people might have something to say about the current balance of those 4 defensive passives, let alone what would happen if we introduced new ones.
I'm still waiting until we can snag Unstable Form from Npcs. The idea of a defensive passive with extremely high but specific resists thats a bit random is very appealing. And would be fairly easy to add in since its already in game, all that needs to sorta happen is make each of the buffs it can grant scale to super stats for resist and have rank determine how many buff stacks can be out at any one time.
Though I suppose unstable form can potentially be a bit risky to put in since against single damage type villain groups you'll always have the resist buff to said type once you get hit. Though against multitype groups like Viper you'd probably be hurting.... Still I'd love to see it in game especially since it practically fits either Gadget or Primal trees
Xavori: Did you get a chance to do those same tests with Focus stacks on the TK Blade set? I'm curious as to whether the numbers would benefit more from using Forms or Mental Discipline.
Something else to consider: Is the goal to make melee DPS as strong as Dragon's Wrath/Claws, or is the goal to bring Dragon's Wrath/Claws down to the level of other melee DPS?
Xavori: Did you get a chance to do those same tests with Focus stacks on the TK Blade set? I'm curious as to whether the numbers would benefit more from using Forms or Mental Discipline.
Something else to consider: Is the goal to make melee DPS as strong as Dragon's Wrath/Claws, or is the goal to bring Dragon's Wrath/Claws down to the level of other melee DPS?
I already tested focus vs. discipline, for TK blades + ego form/id mastery you'd want discipline, you start out the fight at equivalent damage to 6-7 stacks of focus and gain 10% crit chance through the fight, instead of just the little bit more top end damage you get with focus.
Also, i have no energy issues just running ego reverberation so your mileage may vary... My full charge ego breeches refund enough energy to do another full charge ego breech right afterward, which used to be impossible when i was stuck with only focus for energy return.
Xavori: Did you get a chance to do those same tests with Focus stacks on the TK Blade set? I'm curious as to whether the numbers would benefit more from using Forms or Mental Discipline.
If I was building for raw DPS, I might have tested that since I suspect the energy return would help with the biggest obstacle TK blades face right now. Heck, I know fully well my build was suboptimal just for the MA stuff since DEX buffing focus means skewing somewhat (but not as much as on live) towards DEX works better.
I was just curious about how the damage levels compared since I think Claws and Wrath are really good baselines for what I think all melee powers should be in terms of damage, so I built a toon where all things could be left equal between the various power setups.
Wrath and Claws also have a significant diversity in how they work. Wrath cuts defense. Claws hits harder. I like that kind of difference in powers.
Something else to consider: Is the goal to make melee DPS as strong as Dragon's Wrath/Claws, or is the goal to bring Dragon's Wrath/Claws down to the level of other melee DPS?
Bring TK up to other melee. Like I said above, I think Claws and Wrath are just about right on. If you build properly, they can hit harder than ranged toons which is fitting for the added difficulty and vulnerability of being a melee attack.
Also, even tho I didn't test it this time, Massacre from bestial and Haymaker/Uppercut from Might are all solid too. Haven't really worked with Heavy Weapons enough to know if its big hitter matches up.
As others have said, TK Assault still has an animation bug that keeps it from animating.
That said, TK Lance looks great, but it locks you in place on taps. Also, is the skewer anim the final one for it, or will we get the option to shoot it from palm/fist/chest/head? I mean, either way is fine with me, tbh, just would like to know.
All in all, this will make my light/sound manipulator toon VERY happy. Great work on it all!
I already tested focus vs. discipline, for TK blades + ego form/id mastery you'd want discipline, you start out the fight at equivalent damage to 6-7 stacks of focus and gain 10% crit chance through the fight, instead of just the little bit more top end damage you get with focus.
Also, i have no energy issues just running ego reverberation so your mileage may vary... My full charge ego breeches refund enough energy to do another full charge ego breech right afterward, which used to be impossible when i was stuck with only focus for energy return.
Yes. But you're not running normal people stats either
Doh! This has been fixed internally, and will be included with the next PTS push.
Another fix-it mood notification, Ame! Justiciar in Stronghold. He has two passives (Defiance and invuln), but he's only supposed to have invuln like dreadmetal. Obviously justiciar needs to have defiance removed. I'm sure it wouldn't be a very difficult fix...
Id Mastery has damage buffs inline with Way of the Warrior and Unstoppable, instead of inline with the typically ranged Energy Form passives...
Did i miss the text, or can we just assume IM will get the new cosmetic "Id Blades" ZPA that Ego Form/Mental Disciple is slated for?
If so, that makes 3 powers the new ZPA is available for.
With this logic, i'd like to RE-suggest that the ZPA simply just be put on the "blade" powers to make customization easier and more complete.
...Mental Discipline needs some kind of energy return mechanic as well otherwise most people would just use Form of the Tempest+Ego Reverb for all their energy purposes leaving Mental Discipline in the water...maybe a lesser form of energy return than form of the tempest?...
/agreed
(QFT from HERE) *Disclaimer: "smiley" added by me*
I've taken a look [at Ego's STR on lifting], and the math is definitely off.
At rank 1, it requires somewhere around 900 Ego to lift a titanic object.
That's... a bit high :rolleyes:
For reference, it takes 320 Strength to lift a Titanic Object, though you pick it up rather slowly.
We're looking at it, and you can definitely expect a reduction in the amount of Ego needed to lift objects.
Good to hear, then. I'm still hoping for Mental Discipline to work for all Ego damage rather than just melee so I don't have to feel as bad mixing range and melee, but this does make me happy in terms of keeping it on even ground damage-wise with the Forms.
Extra Ego Leech energy/cost reduction would still be nice, though. Synergy with Ego Reverberation!
Admittedly, my experience with Heavy Weapons has been more on the tanking side rather than the DPS side. That said, I think Skewer with the tap-boosting advantage and Annihilate would be the main heavy hitters. Skewer seems to get higher base DPS over time than Annihilate, but I'm not sure how much of a damage boost Annihilate would get against knockback-immune enemies. I do recall hearing that Haymaker does more damage than Burning Chi Fist because of the knockback-immunity boost despite the latter having higher base damage and raw DPS.
I'd like to recommend before the patch goes live to please turn the Malevolent Manifestation version of Ego Storm into a 7 second constant hold instead of a hold that refreshes the application each tick. Here's why.
A mentalist who is standing still and maintaining ego storm ought to be rewarded with a strong hold that does its job, but even non-mentalists who are using Ego Storm with Malevolent Manifestation are taking advantage of its ability to forget breakfree contribution from damage and victim breakfree abilities including Z.
With its quirks, it has already become "the clear choice" when seeking a hold in all aspects of gameplay.
Without ticks(and there is always a chance my observations are fooling me) hold health reduction, breakfree from damage received, breakfree from Z taps, and time expiration, should contribute to a single healthbar, and the hold will not "forget" all the breakfree damage done and start over at full strength.
I'd like to recommend before the patch goes live to please turn the Malevolent Manifestation version of Ego Storm into a 7 second constant hold instead of a hold that refreshes the application each tick. Here's why.
A mentalist who is standing still and maintaining ego storm ought to be rewarded with a strong hold that does its job, but even non-mentalists who are using Ego Storm with Malevolent Manifestation are taking advantage of its ability to forget breakfree contribution from damage and victim breakfree abilities including Z.
With its quirks, it has already become "the clear choice" when seeking a hold in all aspects of gameplay.
Without ticks(and there is always a chance my observations are fooling me) hold health reduction, breakfree from damage received, breakfree from Z taps, and time expiration, should contribute to a single healthbar, and the hold will not "forget" all the breakfree damage done and start over at full strength.
Ego storm is just the obvious PvP example of how the new resist mechanics make the game notfun.
You get the same effect from any NPC's that spam control powers in PvE as well. And maintained NPC holds are simply unbreakable until the NPC stops maintaining them.
Another oof on the Lock and Load change here. Chainsaw and Laser Sword both just got a nice upgrade (since the changes say all attacks, not just ranged), while Sword Cyclone got a downgrade.
Sword Cyclone in WotW or Quarry has a million damage buffs already, that crit chance and energy discount were golden. Maybe Sword Cyclone in AoPM got better.
Did some testing with the TK shield linger vs Force Sheath. TK shield linger was *slightly* better resist (physical only) yet it does not return energy like Force Sheath. Both effects last only 8 seconds and cost 1 adv point. In my opinion the TK shield linger needs to affect all damage types and provide more mitigation or some other benefit to be worthwhile.
TK is a mixed ranged/melee set. Making a toggle for melee only does not make any sense when mixed ranged/melee toggles already exist. Either make yet another toggle power for ranged ego damage (not preferred) or just make Mental Discipline work with all ego damage (preferred).
TK Assault sometimes does not animate.
TK Lance feels like it's missing something. The damage is decent, but not amazing. The animation roots you in place even on tap, which can be deadly since it's so long. Consuming stacks of Ego Leech for a paltry amount of AoE damage is not worth the time or effort to build the stacks back up again.
Splitting damage or damage types... I realize this makes sense in some ways for many powers but due to how certain defenses work (flat damage absorb specifically) simply splitting the damage in half and making it tick twice in the same instant is *not* the same. Maybe make the extra tick(s) of damage ignore flat damage absorb?
Ego Form and Id Mastery. Maybe I'm missing something but they're nearly identical except one is melee only.
Maintained holds (Ego Storm, Ego Choke, Bindings of Aratron, Crippling Coils) are too effective with the current hold mechanics and resistances.
You get the same effect from any NPC's that spam control powers in PvE as well. And maintained NPC holds are simply unbreakable until the NPC stops maintaining them.
yes yes yes yes!!!! I don't PVP - I'm sure that's well know and PVE holds are annoying as heck. At least they stop maintaining them at some point - i can't imagine PVP where they just hold forever.
not fun, in any way.
I'm ok with a hold, you know, as long as the z button does something, ANYTHING, at all.
yes yes yes yes!!!! I don't PVP - I'm sure that's well know and PVE holds are annoying as heck. At least they stop maintaining them at some point - i can't imagine PVP where they just hold forever.
not fun, in any way.
I'm ok with a hold, you know, as long as the z button does something, ANYTHING, at all.
Lets not forget the zombie munch-hold or whatever it is, where the fat ones start eating you...y'know, the one that DOESNT go AWAY! :mad:
Lock n Load was chosen more for the power cost reduction and because with the advantage you could spam the power if you used a fast-ticking AoE melee power like Sword Cyclone. It may be even more valuable to have the damage bonus combined with the spammability, come to think of it.
My EoTS toon at least is happy with that change, since energy is not really a problem for her
Leave Ego Storm alone! It has a fairly long cooldown and you usually can't die in the time it is working. If this gets nerfed, it would be yet another thing you can chalk up to PVP whiners messing with powers that are actually good in PVE but are only slightly overpowered in PVP. Slightly. PVE this is the best way to stop mobs attacking you, and it needs to be left alone for the sake of the squishies who use it to save lives.
Also agreed with Angel that you should be allowed to choose single or double per attack, not for all or none.
Leave Ego Storm alone! It has a fairly long cooldown and you usually can't die in the time it is working. If this gets nerfed, it would be yet another thing you can chalk up to PVP whiners messing with powers that are actually good in PVE but are only slightly overpowered in PVP. Slightly.
Substantially. Seriously, it has a short cooldown (give it a 90s cooldown, sure, it's not overpowered) and how is an offensive power that makes you able to leap into a clump of tough MVs and take no damage a minor effect?
Ego storm was a decently useful power back when it took three tics to hold people. Now it's silly.
TK is a mixed ranged/melee set. Making a toggle for melee only does not make any sense when mixed ranged/melee toggles already exist. Either make yet another toggle power for ranged ego damage (not preferred) or just make Mental Discipline work with all ego damage (preferred).
I was under the impression the bonus critical strike chance worked for all powers, not just melee.
Ame, any chance we can get the energy proc from ego leach to come a bit faster? You get the energy like 1 whole second after the buff comes on.
Not seeing what you mean. I just made some tests to check, and my Energy procs from Ego Reverberation when gaining a stack of Ego Leech happen on the same server tick the damage is dealt and the Ego Leech buff is applied. Are you having issue with a particular power?
With this logic, i'd like to RE-suggest that the ZPA simply just be put on the "blade" powers to make customization easier and more complete.
This would require completely reworking how all of the Ego/Id Blade powers function. They currently all look for the same thing, and all 3 of the powers with the Id Blades ZPA are actually all the exact same ZPA, and provide the exact same thing that used to get passively provided by default on Ego Form, it now just gets turned on via the advantage. Sorry, but this isn't likely to happen any time soon.
While I'm here - let's not turn this thread into a discussion on Hold mechanics again. We have plans that I wish were shorter term, but they are not.
As for comments on Telepathy powers or Mind Link - this is "just" a review of the Telekinesis framework (which is plenty involved as is, heh) and we're not currently planning on making any direct changes to Telepathy powers or Mind Link. Mind Link and the other "Tier 4" powers need a review of their own.
Also saw some comments on split damage types/multiple hits, and wanted to clarify something. We are definitely aware that flat damage absorbs exist, and in general (as I'm sure a few outliers might still remain somewhere that we'll find as we do more framework reviews...) they have a benefit to their damage to compensate for them hitting multiple times, and an extra benefit if the hits are of different damage types. This can be seen in the recent change to TK Maelstrom - it was changed to multiple damage types, and the damage of the power was increased at the same time. It makes these powers a little bit better against normal resistance (as they deal more total damage) and a little bit worse against flat damage absorption.
And one more thing - it looks like the weird number scaling I was seeing on Ego Form was just a local issue. The issue that was brought up about the discrepancy between Id Mastery and Ego Form is a larger problem, since Id Mastery is using the same formula that Way of the Warrior and Unstoppable use. I have to talk to some people about that problem tomorrow, but I would expect to see Id Mastery providing a consistently higher bonus to melee paranormal damage than Ego Form does. If you look at Ego Form vs. Id Mastery with lower values of Super Stats (say in the low 200s) you should see what the intent is. The idea behind the 2 passives is that Id Mastery will be used by players that primarily want to be TK Blades and may pick up a handful of ranged powers, while Ego Form will be used primarily by Ranged TK builds that may pick up a few melee attacks.
New Powers:
Telekinesis the power is AMAZING. The only thing that could make it mor usefull is to add a damageless knockback to the power (like a throw) when there is no object
TK Lance - what are the chances i can get jsut a regular spear or javelin?
TK Assault - can we please get the palm animation from Snow Storm? any orher animation than stand and lean would look better (opinion) however i do like that if you tap it it looks like invisible damage!
The TK Burst animation i could do without too, but i see that it's a reskin of force so i'll just be quiet.
Slightly new powers:
Ego Leech is good, the new form to make it more important is great. Keep these in mine when you do the telepathy pass and make a form for holds.. it should tie directly into telepathic reverb
Ego Blade Dash is also a welcome addition to the blade side of things. Animation is good enough.
New passive:
I can see the difference in the two passives, one more melee focused (with a general damage resist) and one more ranged built.. I propose you keep the ID Mastery for telekinesis, not Ego Form. The blades will always outshine ranged TK in damage output.
then rebuild (COMPLETELY rebuild) Ego Form to work specifically with telepathy (in Sentinel role). The blades may outshine ranged TK in damage output, however if you want to focus on ranged damage/effects i think it's a great idea to put this damage increase in telepathy (where it has ranged ego damage as well). Power cost discount is fairly good idea but a self cooldown reduction is a better idea since so manyof the ranged powers are on cooldowns (TK Wave, Ego Hold, Ego Choke, TK Eruption, Ego Storm, TK Maelstrom, Mind Lock, Psychic Vortex, Ego Sleep, Mind Link) This would also lend this set to use active defenses/ offenses more often even in sentinel/guardian role too). Hopefully this surpasses Aura of Clarity's since it is self only not for a whole team. And the BIGGEST and best thing you could do is tie a +Hold Strength tied to superstats (up to +100% hold strength with maxed superstats for 2x hold duration). With this ranged TK toons can still have a boost in damage (70%+ since they're forced into gaurdian at best instead of offensive) enjoy their effects of choke, ego hold and maelstrom, and still do good damage compared to their bladed/brawler counterparts. What this new passive does NOT address is efficacy of controllers against bosses.. but it'd go a long way to helping telepathy out of the deep too.
I was under the impression the bonus critical strike chance worked for all powers, not just melee.
Sure, but the damage gained from that compared to the base effect of % damage buff to melee ego damage is minimal. Aspect of the Infernal affects ranged and melee toxic. The precedent has been set such that in a mixed ranged/melee set a ranged/melee toggle is used. Making the toggle for TK, which is now a hybrid ranged/melee set, effectively melee only is not the way to go in my opinion.
I was too busy yesterday with Hideout, last part of resistance and the awesome new costume set that I didn't saw the PTS push
The changes look awesome, I love that ego form now boost as well physical damage.
I will have to buy again new character slots after these changes.
New passive seems great.
Also I like the idea of a push if the new incredibly awesome Telekinesis where there is no object.
I still would like to see a LK advantage on TK Shield as it would benefit more in this set than power armor.
And one more thing - it looks like the weird number scaling I was seeing on Ego Form was just a local issue. The issue that was brought up about the discrepancy between Id Mastery and Ego Form is a larger problem, since Id Mastery is using the same formula that Way of the Warrior and Unstoppable use. I have to talk to some people about that problem tomorrow, but I would expect to see Id Mastery providing a consistently higher bonus to melee paranormal damage than Ego Form does. If you look at Ego Form vs. Id Mastery with lower values of Super Stats (say in the low 200s) you should see what the intent is. The idea behind the 2 passives is that Id Mastery will be used by players that primarily want to be TK Blades and may pick up a handful of ranged powers, while Ego Form will be used primarily by Ranged TK builds that may pick up a few melee attacks.
Just looking quickly on live using a toon with 554 total stats. The ranged forms (shadow, ice, fire, electric) are 55% damage buff for rank 1. The melee forms (Unstoppable and WotW) are 69%. The secondary effect on Unstoppable is 34% (non-physical melee damage).
Why not use those formulas for Ego Form and Id Mastery? Give Id Mastery the slightly better paranormal melee that would be 69% on a toon like mine and let it also have the 34% towards all other paranormal damage. Then give Ego Form the same formula as the elemental and shadow forms which would work out to 55% on my toon.
This way, Id Mastery would be exactly like the other melee passives in terms of damage buffing for melee and still have the secondary benefit of other paranormal damage, and Ego Form would work exactly like the other forms for damaging buffing except for paranormal damage.
As for differentiating between Ego Formand Shadow Form, I'd give EM another tiny tweak up in its damage resistance, and I'd make the stealth part of Shadow Form a lot better.
Lock n Load was chosen more for the power cost reduction and because with the advantage you could spam the power if you used a fast-ticking AoE melee power like Sword Cyclone. It may be even more valuable to have the damage bonus combined with the spammability, come to think of it.
I actually like the change, we now have a active offense that doesn't place a massive sfx all over your character
TK shield advantage should be buffed/changed somehow. a lingering dmg resistance to only physical dmg is not really, err not all that great. not all mobs hit with physical dmg, thus really rendering the dmg resistance of this adv work in certain situations. The adv could instead provide a lingering resistance to all dmg, or something that will help the framework.
I'm surprised that this hasn't really gotten much support. =/
/signed.
Force Shield and Ebon Void have 1 point adv that will perform alot better than this shield would with it's adv.
...
While I'm here - let's not turn this thread into a discussion on Hold mechanics again. We have plans that I wish were shorter term, but they are not.
As for comments on Telepathy powers or Mind Link - this is "just" a review of the Telekinesis framework (which is plenty involved as is, heh) and we're not currently planning on making any direct changes to Telepathy powers or Mind Link. Mind Link and the other "Tier 4" powers need a review of their own.
...
How many months are we talking about for hold mechanics or telepathy review? Because right now players can use Ego Storm as an aoe maintained hold (that they don't have to maintain) to turn things like Stronghold and Zombie Apocalypse into a slog.
As for differentiating between Ego Formand Shadow Form, I'd give EM another tiny tweak up in its damage resistance, and I'd make the stealth part of Shadow Form a lot better.
This! I would totally make a Shadowblade assassin.
Just looking quickly on live using a toon with 554 total stats. The ranged forms (shadow, ice, fire, electric) are 55% damage buff for rank 1. The melee forms (Unstoppable and WotW) are 69%. The secondary effect on Unstoppable is 34% (non-physical melee damage).
Why not use those formulas for Ego Form and Id Mastery? Give Id Mastery the slightly better paranormal melee that would be 69% on a toon like mine and let it also have the 34% towards all other paranormal damage. Then give Ego Form the same formula as the elemental and shadow forms which would work out to 55% on my toon.
From everything Ame has said so far, it seems like this is the intent. At a given level of superstats, Id Mastery, WotW, and Unstoppable should all have the same damage boost, while Ego Form, Shadow Form, Fiery Form, etc., will all match. If you are seeing something different, post the numbers (stats and damage bonus) so Ame can fix it.
Also, Ame, please update the Disciple to use Id Mastery in the next patch.
Comments
This....
Also the damage scaling on pts is the same as live for ego form:
Live: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/5T33LV1P3R/2011-07-07_00007.jpg
PTS: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/5T33LV1P3R/2011-07-07_00006.jpg
I apologize that my stats for the test weren't perfect. I was trying to get balanced dex/ego and that made it hard to get back to 70+ STR. I even tried using the free gift boxes on test, but after 40-50 of 'em, I just meh and got down to testing.
Initially I was also going to do a full on DPS test. I gave that up when I realized that both MA attacks could spam fully charged attacks forever whereas the TK attacks could not.
relevant stats:
STR 53
DEX 255
EGO 252
(oh, a side note based on the fun stuff from last patch's stat discussion: critical chance 36.4 severity 87.4)
For the two MA attacks, I had both Way of the Warrior and 8 stacks of Focus from Form of the Tempest
For the two ego blade attacks, I tested with both ego passives and Mental Discipline
All damage ranges are for critical hits only (rounded to 100's):
Dragon's Wrath: 6400-7900
Dragon's Claws: 8000-9600
EBA w/ Ego : 7100 - 8700*
EBA w/ Id: 7200 - 9400*
EBB w/ Ego: 7600 - 8900**
EBB w/ Id: 7800 - 9600**
*Ego Blade Annihilation damage is split into two attacks. The first attack was ~5-6k in damage. The second was ~2-3k.
**Ego Blade Breech is split into two approximately equal attacks. The high end of the range benefited greatly from the built-in debuff stacks.
If I'd done the DPS test I initially planned, the ego attacks wouldn't have been in the running. Even using Ego Reverberation and having the cost reduction of max leech stacks, they couldn't spam fully charged attacks like MA did without a passive. This meant that EBB had to pause every third attack or so for a second or two to let the EB run. EBB also had to wait for its full 3 stacks of debuff before it really got working.
EBA in a DPS test would be horribad as it eats all the leech stacks forcing a quick spam of TK Burst to get them back (side note: TK Burst as a leech applier is perfectly spammable and hence, a good support power as is). EBA also suffers a bit since I don't think the second attack gets as much benefit from ID Mastery as the first attack does. This is also my theory on why EBA slightly underperformed EBB with the "melee" ego passive.
For TK blades, It's likely the best possible attack sequence is TK Burst x5, EBB x2, EBA. The best possible attack sequence for MA is DW x whatever or DC x whatever. I'm okay with differing levels of complexity in attack sequences, but there really should be some reward for taking the harder path. In this case, there's really not.
The ego damage ranges seem okay until you factor in their split nature and damage reduction powers like IDF and Invuln which will get to reduce them twice. And again, it took the debuff stacks of EBB to get into line with what a melee power should be doing (I consider the wrath and claws to be good baselines for what all top end melee attacks should do since they are slightly better than the top end ranged attacks).
My suggestions:
1. Get rid of the split damage in EBB entirely. Two approx equal attacks weakens it unnecessarily. Plus, it doesn't fit the animation. Then buff the damage slightly.
2. Buff EB Annihilation. If it's going to eat leech stacks and leave you doing lower DPS afterwards, it better be worth it.
3. Buff Ego Reverberation. It's not as good as MSA, Spirit Reverb, Thermal Reverb, or apparently the combination of Rush from dragon's and focus from MA forms.
4. Look at the differences between Ego Mastery and Id Mastery. As things stand, the slight damage buff doesn't seem to be worth the melee focus of Id, especially in a set with so many ranged attacks.
Also a graphical glow of some kind while mental discipline is active would be groovy too
Hey Ame mind looking at the Kinetic Darts advantage that procs a Surge now? Incisive Wit. Seems less reason to keep it from appearing with another energy now and might not need that old nerf? People used to use Wit for blades and triple stack energy forms and damage increases, but is that still a concern? The advantage is basically not used as a result because of the nerf.
Also would you mind clarifying how Ego and Str will work now? For a non crit based character who uses blades (Do they exist?) do you just need 70 Ego for max melee blades bonus just like Str?
Ego says 75% buff for all paranormal. Id says 74% buff for melee paranormal.
That's not what happened in testing. What happened is that both EBB and EBA got a wee bit better with ID on their melee part. The EBA secondary damage didn't seem to change at all between the two forms.
/agree
Force Sheath & Lazer Knight much better, both good for TK & ID.
Uh, you stab your sword(s) into the guy and tear them out. How does the animation not fit?
I'm still waiting until we can snag Unstable Form from Npcs. The idea of a defensive passive with extremely high but specific resists thats a bit random is very appealing. And would be fairly easy to add in since its already in game, all that needs to sorta happen is make each of the buffs it can grant scale to super stats for resist and have rank determine how many buff stacks can be out at any one time.
Though I suppose unstable form can potentially be a bit risky to put in since against single damage type villain groups you'll always have the resist buff to said type once you get hit. Though against multitype groups like Viper you'd probably be hurting.... Still I'd love to see it in game especially since it practically fits either Gadget or Primal trees
Unless I attach barbs to the ends of my blades, I'm not tearing anything out.
Not to mention it's ego damage, not physical damage...
Dragon's Wrath has the same animation, but doesn't get the damage split. Would make more sense on a physical weapon rather than a brainsword, IMO.
I have barbs on the ends of my blades now, actually, it's more like a double sided hook.
Something else to consider: Is the goal to make melee DPS as strong as Dragon's Wrath/Claws, or is the goal to bring Dragon's Wrath/Claws down to the level of other melee DPS?
I already tested focus vs. discipline, for TK blades + ego form/id mastery you'd want discipline, you start out the fight at equivalent damage to 6-7 stacks of focus and gain 10% crit chance through the fight, instead of just the little bit more top end damage you get with focus.
Also, i have no energy issues just running ego reverberation so your mileage may vary... My full charge ego breeches refund enough energy to do another full charge ego breech right afterward, which used to be impossible when i was stuck with only focus for energy return.
If I was building for raw DPS, I might have tested that since I suspect the energy return would help with the biggest obstacle TK blades face right now. Heck, I know fully well my build was suboptimal just for the MA stuff since DEX buffing focus means skewing somewhat (but not as much as on live) towards DEX works better.
I was just curious about how the damage levels compared since I think Claws and Wrath are really good baselines for what I think all melee powers should be in terms of damage, so I built a toon where all things could be left equal between the various power setups.
Wrath and Claws also have a significant diversity in how they work. Wrath cuts defense. Claws hits harder. I like that kind of difference in powers.
Bring TK up to other melee. Like I said above, I think Claws and Wrath are just about right on. If you build properly, they can hit harder than ranged toons which is fitting for the added difficulty and vulnerability of being a melee attack.
Also, even tho I didn't test it this time, Massacre from bestial and Haymaker/Uppercut from Might are all solid too. Haven't really worked with Heavy Weapons enough to know if its big hitter matches up.
That said, TK Lance looks great, but it locks you in place on taps. Also, is the skewer anim the final one for it, or will we get the option to shoot it from palm/fist/chest/head? I mean, either way is fine with me, tbh, just would like to know.
All in all, this will make my light/sound manipulator toon VERY happy. Great work on it all!
Yes. But you're not running normal people stats either
If you're going for more standardised Active Offenses, could Lock n Load at least be also made an Energy Form like all the others?
Also, Shadow Shroud. I can't think of a reason beyond the cosmetic to choose it.
Another fix-it mood notification, Ame! Justiciar in Stronghold. He has two passives (Defiance and invuln), but he's only supposed to have invuln like dreadmetal. Obviously justiciar needs to have defiance removed. I'm sure it wouldn't be a very difficult fix...
If so, that makes 3 powers the new ZPA is available for.
With this logic, i'd like to RE-suggest that the ZPA simply just be put on the "blade" powers to make customization easier and more complete.
:eek:
There's more than the old R1,2,3 graphics available as skin options?
/agreed
(QFT from HERE)
*Disclaimer: "smiley" added by me* Very groovy Ame, TYVM...
Good to hear, then. I'm still hoping for Mental Discipline to work for all Ego damage rather than just melee so I don't have to feel as bad mixing range and melee, but this does make me happy in terms of keeping it on even ground damage-wise with the Forms.
Extra Ego Leech energy/cost reduction would still be nice, though. Synergy with Ego Reverberation!
Admittedly, my experience with Heavy Weapons has been more on the tanking side rather than the DPS side. That said, I think Skewer with the tap-boosting advantage and Annihilate would be the main heavy hitters. Skewer seems to get higher base DPS over time than Annihilate, but I'm not sure how much of a damage boost Annihilate would get against knockback-immune enemies. I do recall hearing that Haymaker does more damage than Burning Chi Fist because of the knockback-immunity boost despite the latter having higher base damage and raw DPS.
A mentalist who is standing still and maintaining ego storm ought to be rewarded with a strong hold that does its job, but even non-mentalists who are using Ego Storm with Malevolent Manifestation are taking advantage of its ability to forget breakfree contribution from damage and victim breakfree abilities including Z.
With its quirks, it has already become "the clear choice" when seeking a hold in all aspects of gameplay.
Without ticks(and there is always a chance my observations are fooling me) hold health reduction, breakfree from damage received, breakfree from Z taps, and time expiration, should contribute to a single healthbar, and the hold will not "forget" all the breakfree damage done and start over at full strength.
Ego storm is just the obvious PvP example of how the new resist mechanics make the game notfun.
You get the same effect from any NPC's that spam control powers in PvE as well. And maintained NPC holds are simply unbreakable until the NPC stops maintaining them.
Sword Cyclone in WotW or Quarry has a million damage buffs already, that crit chance and energy discount were golden. Maybe Sword Cyclone in AoPM got better.
Speaking of powers that ignore dodge completely... power armor's rocket launcher is another one.
TK is a mixed ranged/melee set. Making a toggle for melee only does not make any sense when mixed ranged/melee toggles already exist. Either make yet another toggle power for ranged ego damage (not preferred) or just make Mental Discipline work with all ego damage (preferred).
TK Assault sometimes does not animate.
TK Lance feels like it's missing something. The damage is decent, but not amazing. The animation roots you in place even on tap, which can be deadly since it's so long. Consuming stacks of Ego Leech for a paltry amount of AoE damage is not worth the time or effort to build the stacks back up again.
Splitting damage or damage types... I realize this makes sense in some ways for many powers but due to how certain defenses work (flat damage absorb specifically) simply splitting the damage in half and making it tick twice in the same instant is *not* the same. Maybe make the extra tick(s) of damage ignore flat damage absorb?
Ego Form and Id Mastery. Maybe I'm missing something but they're nearly identical except one is melee only.
Maintained holds (Ego Storm, Ego Choke, Bindings of Aratron, Crippling Coils) are too effective with the current hold mechanics and resistances.
AMEN. QTF.
yes yes yes yes!!!! I don't PVP - I'm sure that's well know and PVE holds are annoying as heck. At least they stop maintaining them at some point - i can't imagine PVP where they just hold forever.
not fun, in any way.
I'm ok with a hold, you know, as long as the z button does something, ANYTHING, at all.
Lets not forget the zombie munch-hold or whatever it is, where the fat ones start eating you...y'know, the one that DOESNT go AWAY! :mad:
My EoTS toon at least is happy with that change, since energy is not really a problem for her
Also agreed with Angel that you should be allowed to choose single or double per attack, not for all or none.
Does this mean that the Id Mastery will be keeping Ego Forms old icon (Ego Blades), and Ego Form will be getting a new one?
Ego storm was a decently useful power back when it took three tics to hold people. Now it's silly.
I was under the impression the bonus critical strike chance worked for all powers, not just melee.
Just letting you know.
That is the plan.
This is correct.
Not seeing what you mean. I just made some tests to check, and my Energy procs from Ego Reverberation when gaining a stack of Ego Leech happen on the same server tick the damage is dealt and the Ego Leech buff is applied. Are you having issue with a particular power?
This would require completely reworking how all of the Ego/Id Blade powers function. They currently all look for the same thing, and all 3 of the powers with the Id Blades ZPA are actually all the exact same ZPA, and provide the exact same thing that used to get passively provided by default on Ego Form, it now just gets turned on via the advantage. Sorry, but this isn't likely to happen any time soon.
While I'm here - let's not turn this thread into a discussion on Hold mechanics again. We have plans that I wish were shorter term, but they are not.
As for comments on Telepathy powers or Mind Link - this is "just" a review of the Telekinesis framework (which is plenty involved as is, heh) and we're not currently planning on making any direct changes to Telepathy powers or Mind Link. Mind Link and the other "Tier 4" powers need a review of their own.
Also saw some comments on split damage types/multiple hits, and wanted to clarify something. We are definitely aware that flat damage absorbs exist, and in general (as I'm sure a few outliers might still remain somewhere that we'll find as we do more framework reviews...) they have a benefit to their damage to compensate for them hitting multiple times, and an extra benefit if the hits are of different damage types. This can be seen in the recent change to TK Maelstrom - it was changed to multiple damage types, and the damage of the power was increased at the same time. It makes these powers a little bit better against normal resistance (as they deal more total damage) and a little bit worse against flat damage absorption.
And one more thing - it looks like the weird number scaling I was seeing on Ego Form was just a local issue. The issue that was brought up about the discrepancy between Id Mastery and Ego Form is a larger problem, since Id Mastery is using the same formula that Way of the Warrior and Unstoppable use. I have to talk to some people about that problem tomorrow, but I would expect to see Id Mastery providing a consistently higher bonus to melee paranormal damage than Ego Form does. If you look at Ego Form vs. Id Mastery with lower values of Super Stats (say in the low 200s) you should see what the intent is. The idea behind the 2 passives is that Id Mastery will be used by players that primarily want to be TK Blades and may pick up a handful of ranged powers, while Ego Form will be used primarily by Ranged TK builds that may pick up a few melee attacks.
New Powers:
Telekinesis the power is AMAZING. The only thing that could make it mor usefull is to add a damageless knockback to the power (like a throw) when there is no object
TK Lance - what are the chances i can get jsut a regular spear or javelin?
TK Assault - can we please get the palm animation from Snow Storm? any orher animation than stand and lean would look better (opinion) however i do like that if you tap it it looks like invisible damage!
The TK Burst animation i could do without too, but i see that it's a reskin of force so i'll just be quiet.
Slightly new powers:
Ego Leech is good, the new form to make it more important is great. Keep these in mine when you do the telepathy pass and make a form for holds.. it should tie directly into telepathic reverb
Ego Blade Dash is also a welcome addition to the blade side of things. Animation is good enough.
New passive:
I can see the difference in the two passives, one more melee focused (with a general damage resist) and one more ranged built.. I propose you keep the ID Mastery for telekinesis, not Ego Form. The blades will always outshine ranged TK in damage output.
then rebuild (COMPLETELY rebuild) Ego Form to work specifically with telepathy (in Sentinel role). The blades may outshine ranged TK in damage output, however if you want to focus on ranged damage/effects i think it's a great idea to put this damage increase in telepathy (where it has ranged ego damage as well). Power cost discount is fairly good idea but a self cooldown reduction is a better idea since so manyof the ranged powers are on cooldowns (TK Wave, Ego Hold, Ego Choke, TK Eruption, Ego Storm, TK Maelstrom, Mind Lock, Psychic Vortex, Ego Sleep, Mind Link) This would also lend this set to use active defenses/ offenses more often even in sentinel/guardian role too). Hopefully this surpasses Aura of Clarity's since it is self only not for a whole team. And the BIGGEST and best thing you could do is tie a +Hold Strength tied to superstats (up to +100% hold strength with maxed superstats for 2x hold duration). With this ranged TK toons can still have a boost in damage (70%+ since they're forced into gaurdian at best instead of offensive) enjoy their effects of choke, ego hold and maelstrom, and still do good damage compared to their bladed/brawler counterparts. What this new passive does NOT address is efficacy of controllers against bosses.. but it'd go a long way to helping telepathy out of the deep too.
You are my new best friend. Call me every 5 minutes.
Sure, but the damage gained from that compared to the base effect of % damage buff to melee ego damage is minimal. Aspect of the Infernal affects ranged and melee toxic. The precedent has been set such that in a mixed ranged/melee set a ranged/melee toggle is used. Making the toggle for TK, which is now a hybrid ranged/melee set, effectively melee only is not the way to go in my opinion.
The changes look awesome, I love that ego form now boost as well physical damage.
I will have to buy again new character slots after these changes.
New passive seems great.
Also I like the idea of a push if the new incredibly awesome Telekinesis where there is no object.
I still would like to see a LK advantage on TK Shield as it would benefit more in this set than power armor.
Just looking quickly on live using a toon with 554 total stats. The ranged forms (shadow, ice, fire, electric) are 55% damage buff for rank 1. The melee forms (Unstoppable and WotW) are 69%. The secondary effect on Unstoppable is 34% (non-physical melee damage).
Why not use those formulas for Ego Form and Id Mastery? Give Id Mastery the slightly better paranormal melee that would be 69% on a toon like mine and let it also have the 34% towards all other paranormal damage. Then give Ego Form the same formula as the elemental and shadow forms which would work out to 55% on my toon.
This way, Id Mastery would be exactly like the other melee passives in terms of damage buffing for melee and still have the secondary benefit of other paranormal damage, and Ego Form would work exactly like the other forms for damaging buffing except for paranormal damage.
As for differentiating between Ego Formand Shadow Form, I'd give EM another tiny tweak up in its damage resistance, and I'd make the stealth part of Shadow Form a lot better.
I can perfectly envision a celestial/tk character carrying an hammer of light, while being protected by a TK shield with LK advantage
/signed.
Force Shield and Ebon Void have 1 point adv that will perform alot better than this shield would with it's adv.
How many months are we talking about for hold mechanics or telepathy review? Because right now players can use Ego Storm as an aoe maintained hold (that they don't have to maintain) to turn things like Stronghold and Zombie Apocalypse into a slog.
If a toon has 250 dex, 250 int, and 10 ego on live, how much ego will that toon need to take to keep the same crit rating with these changes?
That was the only desirable thing about the power *shrug*
Its awesome!!
Need more of those things!
This! I would totally make a Shadowblade assassin.
From everything Ame has said so far, it seems like this is the intent. At a given level of superstats, Id Mastery, WotW, and Unstoppable should all have the same damage boost, while Ego Form, Shadow Form, Fiery Form, etc., will all match. If you are seeing something different, post the numbers (stats and damage bonus) so Ame can fix it.
Also, Ame, please update the Disciple to use Id Mastery in the next patch.