I think the main problem is the set (as all here so far acknowledge) was not very good to begin with.
The solution seems to have been mainly Ego Leach. The problem with the solution, though, is the Ego Leach by its mere existence makes every other power in the set worse through making an already expensive set cost more. Coupled with that is that Ego Leach doesn't really make you a better fighter, as most are reporting that they still have severe energy problems. Plus, there is already an Energy Unlock; if it's not enough or not working, then make it work.
I love extra little mechanics, and I would love to see Ego Leach work, but I don't think Energy is the solution. Removing it and Energy makes all the other powers cheaper and better, which frees it up to give something truly useful to the set.
Since the main complaint for the AT as a whole is squishyness without oomph, then one or the other of those two should be the focus of whatever Ego Leach ends up doing. Some solutions (many of which have already been discussed) are:
health over time
disorient
stacking damage buff
and my favorite...stacking defense buff (which could activate the awesome armor people like)
I dunno about you Robobo, but what I'm seeing in response to this post is that something is either horribly broken with melee powers or forms are massively overpowered....
They've already released ATs that use the massively overpowered stuff. The Blade and the Specialist, which aren't even notably strong ATs, should both beat the Disciple hollow.
suggestions
make the TK blades set have a mechanic with the debuffs for piercing defenses, it would make sense that blades of mental energy could bypass some physical defenses.
make some mechanic dependent on ego, or add a form that gives an extra bonus scaling with ego.
possibilities,
increase crit rate
increase dodge
increase recovery
another possibility is add some knock effects
a small knock up effect when attacking mobs with TK debuff on it.
The essential problem with TK is single blade or double blade do the same thing better.
make them do something different.
right now my ideas are
better armor piercing
more knocking stuff around (not large knocks because that ruins their damage)
The AT is really really squishy btw. i dont know how its dmg measures up, but squish city
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but if Telekinesis worked on MVs, Villains, Henchmen and players it would suddenly be pretty awesome. Like if I could throw one hostile into another and they bonked heads and both took falling damage (standard knock resist, scaled by EGO instead of STR).
...
There could actually be several more telekinesis-related attacks.
If would be neat to have a major pull-to, a lasso attack without the lasso.
Another option would be an Ebon Rift type deal, where you maintain with a heatwave type animation, and everybody within 25' just keeps bonking heads with each other, including pets, crates, etc.
Shadow Embrace, Vicious Cyclone, Tractor Beam are more powers that could be TK-ized.
Could also create a new long-range crushing damage attack by starting with TK Maelstrom animation but combining the rocks to form something like Focused Shot (a Storm of Arrows would be a cool variant as well).
...
The more I think about the powers, the more I agree with those who think the set should be split in two. Throwing existing objects with your mind and blades that do mental damage don't seem to belong together at all.
It wouldn't hurt if Ego (and Strength) did what is says on the tin - provided increased breakfree damage against intangible holds (tangible for Strength).
My main has been Ego/Recovery stated since launch - because I THOUGHT I was getting some protection from half the mez in the game. Joke's on me.
The more I think about the powers, the more I agree with those who think the set should be split in two. Throwing existing objects with your mind and blades that do mental damage don't seem to belong together at all.
Nothing is gained from dividing powers into smaller boxes except LESS synergistic interactions. The current ego leech (live and test) is doomed to failure because there is nothing about energy efficiency that ties together the two sides of this set. It's a mechanic without a flavor. Honestly the designers have been obsessing over energy return for a while now and stopped developing flavor and variety of playstyle. Where is the mission statement for TK? What do the Devs want it to feel like? Right now the only observable answer is "it feels like every other melee set, just nerfed insensate." It has ranged attacks, but they don't feel integrated or worthwhile. Every ranged attack should feel like it's setting up a melee follow up. Even if the damage comes up and the energy floweth over in an unlimted bounty, the set adds very little to the Champions experience.
The PBAoE in this set would be sweet if anything else in the set helped you set it up. I'd love to have a competitive multi-range combatant, but that right there tells you neither of the existing offensive stances is valid - which means if you are gonna do a multi-range set you either need a new offensive posture (unlikely) OR you need to build it around a Tank or Suport stance. Making a multi-range tank would be awesome on toast, but it means looking at the tools in that light - secondary effects that enhance survivability. A multi range support build would be fine if the support was in the form of soft mez and battlefield manipulaiton - secondary effeects including lots of pulls and pushes.
Defining these kinds of goals, and working towards them would add something to Champions.
Yet another melee DPS'r framework with some forgotten CC and ranged attacks does not.
They've already released ATs that use the massively overpowered stuff. The Blade and the Specialist, which aren't even notably strong ATs, should both beat the Disciple hollow.
I'm willing to bet most of the original 8 ATs could waste the Disciple without much hassle.
I think all the "Delay the Disciple" posts here are all right. But, when push comes to shove, you still need to move a product when you say you will. Catch 22? No.
Make a different AT out of powers that aren't as broken. I'm sure, through the passionate response evident here that this community will be more than willing to help create a viable AT out of existing powers that will meet the needs of the company.
Why not make an offensive Might AT? A defensive Infernal AT? A knockback heavy Force AT? None of those sets look like they'll be seeing passes in the near future, and for the most part, are solid sets.
We will work with you to make this happen, but please don't try to push an unfinished product. It will hurt us both.
Make a different AT out of powers that aren't as broken.
Or make a functional TK AT. The TK powers aren't that bad, it's just that the AT is horribly put together, in part because it has ranged powers on a Brawler build, in part because it's not well set up in general. Consider this rebuild:
Level 1: Ego Blade
Level 1: Ego Blade Frenzy
Level 6: Ego Blade Dash
Level 6: Super-Dexterity
Level 8: Ego Form
Level 11: Protection Field (yeah, we don't really have good stats for it. It's still a good power that's in-theme).
Level 13: Super-Ego
Level 14: Telekinetic Shield
Level 17: Form of the Tempest
Level 22: Ego Choke or Ego Blade Annihilation (Ego Choke is ranged, but mostly used for CC)
Level 27: Ego Surge
Level 32: TK Eruption or TK Maelstrom (again, mostly used for CC)
Level 40: Ego Blade Breach
We left out ego reverberation, but I'm not sure what it would replace.
These few things i foresee their never gonna change in this framework.
Ego form must produce ID blades.
Telekinesis set must combine of range and melee skills to be used togeather.
Must have ego leech, what ever the effects are on them.
Telekinetic Maelstrom must deal physical damage because it throws stone.
The set skills must be high energy cost and high charging time because it uses range powers.
Framework must work with Ego super stat because it deals ego damage.
Their not gonna change the squishyness of this power set.
NO matter what better suggestions have been made for this set will not stray the developers away from their original telekinesis concept.
If they're never going to change it, don't waste your time complaining about it - especially here, in a topic that's dedicated to providing constructive criticism to the developers. Vent elsewhere, please.
Until I hear otherwise from a developer, I'm going to assume that they remain open to suggestions.
Ok so its clear that the TK framework isnt going to get the overhaul we all hoped for. Instead we are getting some tweaks aimed at pushing an archetype out. OK I can live with that for the moment, but the archetype and the framework still need a lot more work. Below Im going to try and give some constructive (and hopefully achievable) suggestions to this end:-
1) The ID Blades effect needs to be easily procced without Ego Form to allow the more mixing and matching with passives outside the framework. Tying it to the ego blades powers (as the Devs. have suggested) would be a start.
2) (as said by others) EB Lunge needs a different animation and the NTG & Crip Ch advantages. It would be nice if it could be more modelled on Void Shift (e.g. granting Ego Leech on characters in the vicinity and possibly a slow or confuse effect).
3) Ego Reverb (thanks for changing the name!) and TP Reverb need to synergise with both Mentalist frameworks (ie Energy gain when struck with Ego damage) (or even better yet with all Paranormal damage!)
4) The framework and archetype need more melee-type crowd control/utility powers. TK Wave, Eruption and Maelstrom either take too long to charge or are maintains. Melee depends on a degree of speed/surprise especially when you are squishy melee. TK needs something like force snap and perhaps some slow/snare/pull effects.
5) It would help if TK Eruption (as has been stated before by others) could have its charge/cost time reduced so that we could get the benefit of the defensive buff without being slaughtered while we set it off!
6) Ego form needs more melee advantages. Ice form gets the chill/freeze/slow effects on those near or those attacking the character. Could Ego Form get something similar some kind of TK backwash effect your power reaches out and snares your opponent type thing?
7) Its still too squishy as a melee set. WOTW gets a dodge bonus that is easily augmentable via other powers (eg E.M. Elusive Monk) and gear, and the bonus is effective against all damage types. Perhaps TK could get some kind of defensive toggle (maybe even giving Knockback resistance based on Ego as well) that would augment dodge/damage resistance. Or perhaps the Energy Builder could proc a shield effect (as with Force)? More defensive advantages on the weaponery powers would also be a start (dual blades gets Eye of the Storm, why couldn't TK have something similar?).
1) The ID Blades effect needs to be easily procced without Ego Form to allow the more mixing and matching with passives outside the framework. Tying it to the ego blades powers (as the Devs. have suggested) would be a start.
I've said it before and i'll say it again..
Give TK a Form similar to Martial Arts forms that give Focus buffs. This way the set can compete with every other melee set out there in damage.
Put ID blades on the damn toggle. This allows a choice for a defensive passive as you'll still get ID blades. People taking Shadow Form and want to dip into TK for some melee attacks will also have access to ID blades.
Since the Devs are likely stuck on putting the 20% boosted damage ID blades grant, ID blades needs another concept to make it something aside from cosmetic thing. I would hate for a cool idea like ID blades to go to waste on cosmetics.
I propose ID blades (2 blades) grants faster activation time on blade attacks. This isn't some overly huge buff, but it would allow TK to have a similar quick attack style Martial Arts has.
This thread is FULL OF AMAZING IDEAS that it should be a walk in the park for devs to make this a competitive and enjoyable set. In all honesty, just look at other melee sets and analyze what makes them so much better than TK, and apply those concepts to the framework. Once that's done, start adding TK-specific flare to make it unique.
Hell, make an Ego Blade Leech attack. Let it be an attack that consumes stacks of Ego Leech and heals you.
Make Ego Annihilation consume stacks of Ego Leech and for every stack consumed does a set amount of damage. This goes hand in hand with it's "Finisher" style attack.
Here is a list for you devs of ideas suggested by myself and ideas suggested by others. I believe this list is changes that will move the set in the right direction to be on par with other melee and to give it more utility.
1. Give TK a Form like Martial Arts. Put ID blades on the toggle. People, stop suggesting aggressor style toggle. Might/Heavy Weapons gets Aggressor/Enrage, Martial arts gets Crits/Form Focus. See the pattern here?
2. ID blades grant faster activation times than single blade. I'd hate for such a cool mechanic to go to waste on cosmetics.
3. Ego Form still increases Ego damage by a set amount, still has cost reduction, but now gives a damage resistant buff to all damage.
4. Reduce endurance costs.
5. Create synergy with ranged powers. Brawler stance and ranged doesn't mix.
6. Ego Blade Leech. Saps the targets defenses and converts it to you, granting you a damage resistant buff for a short time. Consumes all stacks of Ego leech, healing you depending on how many stacks. You can either make it so you get stacks of defensive buff or all in one chunk.
7. Ego Blade Annihilation. Consumes stacks of Ego Leech and does bonus damage depending on how many stacks were consumed.
8. TK eruption should mainly be focused on it's slight damage/damage resistant buff it gives. I've always viewed it as a power booster and nothing else. TK already has Ego Blade Frenzy for a close AoE attack. I also love the FX it adds to further show it as a cool enhancement power.
9. Fix the Lunge fx
10. Fix Ego Weaponry. I'm still at loss as to why it does less damage in ID blade form.
11. Fix TK shield. Let it block against all damage instead of just physical.
Those changes alone would put TK at a competitive spot. These suggestions also give a reason to actually get Ego Annihilation, and add a healing blade attack called Ego Blade Leech. They also create synergy with Ego Leech. Now the set has a proper finisher and a proper heal/defense boost blade attack.
Faster activation times would put TK blade attacks on par with Martial Arts attacks. It wouldn't have to be huge, but something a tad better than what we got now. Making TK eruption into a power that focuses on enhancing your damage and damage resistant would give it a clear defined purpose instead of "Yawn lame damage, Yawn lame boost" that it has now.
Let me also note, these are just a fraction of the cool ideas suggested in this thread. Reading this thread should make it childs play for the devs to make TK a better set.
2. ID blades grant faster activation times than single blade.
I think most of the points you listed are good or okay, except this one. Unlike the others, which are generally fine, this one is somewhat questionable, and doesn't really contribute that much to solving TK's problems. I also feel that a lot of people are really, really underestimating how significant even a .17s activation reduction is, and how weirdly it will affect the balance equations as defined by The Spreadsheet.
I don't feel that Id Blades really needs to have such a big effect, nor that it should, given the way it's currently implemented. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that, since it's a baked-in component of the Blade powers, its effects must be calculated into the powers' costs, according to The Spreadsheet. This means that the powers will essentially be balanced around having it up all or most of the time, so the powers will be under-strength without it. This makes them less attractive to cross-frame builds, as well as penalizing people who might prefer the single blade animations.
I'd have to leave it to either a dev or something with the time to do a mathematical comparison of various powers, but I'm under the impression that there's a baseline number for what damage a power is allowed to do in a given time, for a given energy cost. Other effects, like Clinging Flames, roots, etc, all have a value associated with them that affects those equations as well. However, since activation time is such a small number already, modifications to it will likely have very large effects. Even the "minor" .17 reduction (from .67 to .50) that I've seen tossed around is a 25% decrease. That's going to have some pretty big effects.
Since Robobo was asking for the glaring problems with TK and the AT, in the interest of having The Disciple not be horrid when it comes out, I think the really show-stopping problems should be what we focus on, at least in this thread.
The urgent concern right now is the AT. The AT will come with Ego Form, so the method for proc'ing Id Blades is irrelevant in that regard. What we need to focus on is making the Disciple as good as possible in the next week!
I like Pantagruel's build. I'd try to fit MR in there instead of Protection Field for theme reasons, and I'd probably make the choice be between MR and Ego Blade Annihilation. Then I'd make stacks of Ego Leech significantly buff all Ego Blade attacks (like how Ego Weaponry works in the latest builds), and replace the Form with the Reverb.
I like Pantagruel's build. I'd try to fit MR in there instead of Protection Field for theme reasons, and I'd probably make the choice be between MR and Ego Blade Annihilation.
MR is the Mind's level 40, it's not appropriate to give it to another AT at a lower level. It also can't be taken before level 32 on an AT.
Since Robobo was asking for the glaring problems with TK and the AT, in the interest of having The Disciple not be horrid when it comes out, I think the really show-stopping problems should be what we focus on, at least in this thread.
To address the earlier stuff in your post, I wasn't talking a number anywhere near .17
In fact, the number range I was thinking of would be .05 as I said it's a small buff but gives reason for ID blades.
As for addressing problems for TK and the AT, most of my suggestions DO address those problems, such as no purpose for Ego Blade Annihilation, being squishy, energy problems, etc. EVERYONE before me has already quoted Robobo and pointed this out, so It should be very common knowledge on what the first step should be.
The urgent concern right now is the AT. The AT will come with Ego Form, so the method for proc'ing Id Blades is irrelevant in that regard. What we need to focus on is making the Disciple as good as possible in the next week!
People have already said stop rushing the release of the AT. It will only **** off customers. Release it when the TK set has been changed to make this process a crap load easier to do.
Why can't people see the problem with the AT lies in the framework? Stop suggesting bandaid fixes.
Ego Form gets buffed. Guess what? AT got a buff. Ego Blade Annihilation gets buffed. Guess what? AT got buffed. Framework gets a toggle. Guess what? AT got buffed. TK powers get endurance costs reduced. Guess what? AT gets buffed. I hope you see the pattern. The problem is the framework, which should be addressed first. Once those changes are made, THEN you release the AT.
TK eruption: should probably be flagged as melee and ranged
All TK powers should cost less energy, or ego leech/reverb mechanics need to return more energy
Ego Form needs to grant more bonus damage
Idblades mode needs to be triggered by more stuff, I'm down with a toggle but I think it's less fun than a mechanic built around say, consuming ego leech debuffs
Absolutely disagree on TK shield: the bonus resistance should stay physical, both for theme and for balance
On Panta's retool of Disciple: Ego Reverb should be at 22, and I'd probably get rid of PF (not saying it's bad, just that I'd personally do it)
I absolutely love the idea of EBA consuming ego leech stacks for burst damage, /signed /signed /signed
Avenger role should buff all damage, not just ranged damage
I absolutely love the idea of EBA consuming ego leech stacks for burst damage, /signed /signed /signed
Gives it a point, at least; currently there's no good reason to use EBA instead of spamming EBB. It could also consume EBB stacks, though unless the boost was quite large it would be more annoying than useful.
TK eruption: should probably be flagged as melee and ranged
My proposed solution to the mix of melee and ranged attacks with ego form, is to have the ego blade attacks buffed by avenger role and run the disciple AT in avenger role. Basically the choice is to have ego blades boosted by avenger, or to have maelstrom, eruption, and choke boosted by brawler. Avenger needs a buff more than brawler does, "Ego blades boosted by avenger" is an easy to understand rule/exception, all other paranormal damage besides ego blades is ranged and hence goes better with avenger (thinking freeform), kinetic darts would continue being a viable EB for freeform TK blade builds. It's not a coincidence that things work out so nicely since TK as a set was originally designed to work with the old avenger role that boosted melee as well as ranged damage.
Avenger role should buff all damage, not just ranged damage
Yeah that would solve this issue as well, I think TK as a set was not given proper consideration when the old avenger role was split into brawler and 'new avenger'.
As for the missing martial arts form, I perceive an unusually large disconnect between the way players and devs view the importance of these toggles. It's a lot of damage, a lot of energy return, and the scaling with Dex adds more character progression (i.e. it makes the improvement from getting better gear while leveling more noticeable). If I was playing a Disciple and given the choice between ego form and form of the unleashed tempest, it would be a no brainer to go with FoUT. Ego leech / ego reverb is no comparison at this point, and it can't be buffed up to the level of a MA form without being mutually exclusive to MA forms.
If you could fit form of the unleashed tempest into the Disciple's build progression that would solve the problem. There just isn't room though, without giving up on ego reverb. A more radical solution would be something like reskinning ego reverb into a stack granting toggle with a similar damage boost to the MA toggles, but with energy gain tied to stacks of ego leech.
If you could fit form of the unleashed tempest into the Disciple's build progression that would solve the problem. There just isn't room though, without giving up on ego reverb.
Gives it a point, at least; currently there's no good reason to use EBA instead of spamming EBB. It could also consume EBB stacks, though unless the boost was quite large it would be more annoying than useful.
Given the nature of Rupture currently I think it's wishful thinking to have it be really respectable, but I can dream.
Regarding focus: I'm firmly in the 'nerf focus/enrage' crowd, but whatever, pretty sure we lost that battle a long time ago.
People have already said stop rushing the release of the AT. It will only **** off customers. Release it when the TK set has been changed to make this process a crap load easier to do.
Why can't people see the problem with the AT lies in the framework? Stop suggesting bandaid fixes.
Because... what if they don't delay the AT? Should we boycott giving feedback, or should we do our best to make it suck as little as possible?
You do realize that it's not up to Akinos or Ame, right? It may not even be up to RoBoBo on whether to release this thing or not. So stop shooting down ideas and start providing constructive criticism.
To address the earlier stuff in your post, I wasn't talking a number anywhere near .17
In fact, the number range I was thinking of would be .05 as I said it's a small buff but gives reason for ID blades.
I apologize if I conflated your suggest with someone else's, but since that was the only hard number I've seen anyone give, it was what I used. Regardless, I think messing with the activation times is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened. That number is just too integral to the power to be able to mess with much. I firmly believe Id Blades should be more of a customization decision, and there's just no good way to keep that kind of boost minor enough to be skippable, not affect the powers' costs, and at the same time be noticeable.
I wouldn't tear out my hair if they made Id Blades have some inherent boost, but I don't think that what the blades buff itself provides should be very large, instead, give the "trigger-buffs" like Incisive Wit, Ego Surge, and TK Eruption most of the buff. That way, the Id Blades effect itself is devalued to the point where Ego Form, or even the much-discussed "Toggle-Form", can trigger it without being too much weaker for non-Blades characters.
Essentially, if they can't outright make it a customization choice like Emanation Points, separate the buffs from the blades so that it essentially is one.
I'm sorry if it sounded like I was jumping on you. Some of your other suggestions were good, I just started writing on the Id Blades one because I keep seeing that particular suggestion floated and I really, really think it's a bad idea.
Why can't people see the problem with the AT lies in the framework? Stop suggesting bandaid fixes.
....
You guys got this entire process ****-backwards.
I totally agree that the AT and the Framework are inextricably tied. However, since their last word on this was that they're going to push the AT out regardless, I at least want to make sure they know what everyone thinks is wrong with it. I don't want to give up on the Framework review either, but at least we can focus on the things that make the AT dysfunctional.
That said, here are the problems I see with the AT:
Poor Energy Management. The Costs are too high and the income is too low.
Very, very Fragile, but power set up doesn't support it. Instead of a Glass Cannon, it's a Glass Super Soaker.
Limited survivability.
Poor synergies, useless power picks.
The energy management and the lack of punch go hand-in-hand.
Ego Form is lacks meaningful defense, so it favors quick, decisive combats where things die before they have a chance to hit you too hard. However, Ego Leech, with the way it stacks, favors longer combats where it has time to build up. At the same time, Ego Leech's actual effects aren't very good, yet they artificially inflate the costs of the powers to the point where you don't have enough energy to burst things down without stopping to build up more energy.
Since Ego Reverb/Ego Leech are such a weak energy mechanic, and because the AT is locked into DEX/EGO, it doesn't have the energy income to afford its own attacks. Energy on Defeat is next-to useless, and should not be a base component of the powers. It's just too niche to use in a lot of situations, so being forced to pay out the nose for it sucks.
Since DEX/EGO competes with all of the Energy stats, the AT really has to have solid energy-gaining powers. A lot of people have suggested a Form of the Tempest-clone. Whatever it is, there needs to be more things that provide additional benefits from stack EGO, by far the worst stat. Giving Ego Form a mechanic like Quarry's Audacity stacks would work great, potentially giving some END, REC, INT, or even a flat-out power discount, as a buff that scaled with EGO.
As for the powers themselves, I agree with a lot of what's been said: the charge times and energy costs are too high, even before the increases to account for Ego Leech. (Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe it was left out of the balance equations for a reason? Do you guys have records on that stuff?) Annihilate lacks purpose, giving it the ability to "rupture" Ego Leech or Breach stacks for additional effects would play to the "finisher" style of the power better that what it has currently.
EGO should do something else besides crit severity. I don't know what it should do, but a new function that has something to do with killing things needs to be folded into EGO. Not CC duration (that's bad news). I think the problem is that there are too many stats and not enough functions; if this were closed beta prior to CO launch I'd suggest dropping EGO altogether and folding crit severity into PRE. I realize it makes PRE too good, but whatever, I don't care :P
What if Ego added a small amount of KB strength and resistance and Strength was given a bit of crit severity, so that they could be more interchangeable?
EGO should do something else besides crit severity. I don't know what it should do, but a new function that has something to do with killing things needs to be folded into EGO. Not CC duration (that's bad news). I think the problem is that there are too many stats and not enough functions; if this were closed beta prior to CO launch I'd suggest dropping EGO altogether and folding crit severity into PRE. I realize it makes PRE too good, but whatever, I don't care :P
What if Ego added a small amount of KB strength and resistance and Strength was given a bit of crit severity, so that they could be more interchangeable?
Given how EGO competes against INT and END on gear, and how the AT has really bad energy management, maybe it should be something else Energy related. (Currently, it determines how much you get from Blocking)
I'm not sure what it could realistically be though. It might be better just to give the AT a power, potentially Ego Form, that gives them some energy-related benefits that scale with EGO, in addition to strengthening Ego Reverb.
Personally, I'd like to see TK go back to being CON/EGO, but making that viable would take way more work than it's worth.
Given how EGO competes against INT and END on gear, and how the AT has really bad energy management, maybe it should be something else Energy related. (Currently, it determines how much you get from Blocking)
I'm not sure what it could realistically be though. It might be better just to give the AT a power, potentially Ego Form, that gives them some energy-related benefits that scale with EGO, in addition to strengthening Ego Reverb.
Yeah; the oft-suggested Toggle could play to that, too.
Hey guys! Sorry I haven't been active in these TK threads, been pretty heads down on Resistance polish. But, since Ame is off getting married (the nerve of that guy), here I am!
Simply put, you all are 100% correct: TK needs more work. I feel the changes so far are in the right direction, and we're releasing the changes thus far as well as The Disciple along with Resistance, but we are not considering this to be the TK review.
I am going to head up a more comprehensive TK review myself once Resistance is out the door. We've definitely seen your top concerns and have talked about what we can do. Hopefully I'll be able to say more soon.
Thanks again for your feedback so far. I'll be looking for more soon. I'll likely start an in-game chat channel like we did with the melee review, for those of you that remember that. Looking forward to working through these issues with you guys again.
I TOTALLY get this is not your decision (we all blame a bean counter somewhere...) but saying the set still needs work but your releasing the AT for sale anyway is an epic fail. We all understand delays for quality but every AT is potentially a new player turned off the game forever.
Think harder Homer....
edit: This isn't like saying we're putting in framework changes now and adding more later. This is a sale item that will be charged for in and of itself. A commercial product that you know has flaws is only going to lead to more problems.
EGO should do something else besides crit severity. I don't know what it should do, but a new function that has something to do with killing things needs to be folded into EGO. Not CC duration (that's bad news). I think the problem is that there are too many stats and not enough functions; if this were closed beta prior to CO launch I'd suggest dropping EGO altogether and folding crit severity into PRE. I realize it makes PRE too good, but whatever, I don't care :P
I forget who, but someone once suggested having Ego reduce charge times in a manner similar to Int's energy cost reduction. Of course this would absolutely kill LR in PvP, but I think that there are plenty of functions that could be added in theory. Implementing them is something else entirely of course.
That should be obvious from the stats of the toggles. It's like the devs think players can't maintain more than 2-3 stacks.
I disagree because I don't take "passives should be better than toggles" as an assumption, I just view the situation on live as every melee character who wants to do competitive dps takes either an MA form or enrage with an aspect, those two options are balanced with each other and different enough to make it an interesting choice. Enrage and toggles are better than passives but I don't view that as a problem, and I think the net effect of nerfing DPS is to make NPC fights last longer, which also has no appeal.
Sure, that would make it easy, but since many archetypes are forced to take suboptimal tier 0 power choices I figured removing ego weaponry isn't an option.
What would you think about changing Ego Leech to act as a "drain-over-time" effect that gradually transfers energy from the target to you, with an energy gain on par with Focus but scaling with Ego? This alone would address many of Disciple's energy management issues without having to change the AT at all.
I disagree because I don't take "passives should be better than toggles" as an assumption, I just view the situation on live as every melee character who wants to do competitive dps takes either an MA form or enrage with an aspect, those two options are balanced with each other and different enough to make it an interesting choice. Enrage and toggles are better than passives but I don't view that as a problem, and I think the net effect of nerfing DPS is to make NPC fights last longer, which also has no appeal.
Just to throw my two cents in, why are you comparing Toggles and Passives in the first place? I mean, other than their relative strengths power-to-power, and in certain ranged builds, they don't compete the toggles and the passives don't really compete. From what I see, most of the time the current competition is between the MA Forms vs. Enrage+Aspect. Outside of AoPM builds, which are usually ranged, the Passive is something to be used in addition to the Toggles, as far as I've seen; Might will usually use Unstoppable, MA (and some Bestial builds) use Way of the Warrior, etc.
I'm not sure how they've worked that with the ATs, because honestly, up to this point I haven't really cared, but it seems like since the Disciple has neither Focus nor Enrage, nor a new mechanic to compete with either of them, its performance suffers.
What would you think about changing Ego Leech to act as a "drain-over-time" effect that gradually transfers energy from the target to you, with an energy gain on par with Focus but scaling with Ego? This alone would address many of Disciple's energy management issues without having to change the AT at all.
The problem with that would be having to account for it on every power, since Ego Leech is baked-in. As long as Ego Leech remains integrated like that, it will either need to be very minor like other baked-in effects, such as Fear, or its cost will be too high. If they were to say, off-load it to a passive or toggle, that would solve the cost issue, but might raise new problems.
As a passive, I have no idea how that would work number-wise, though Pestilence would suggest that it's not an impossible problem. As a toggle, though, it'd probably have to be exclusive to Forms, and maybe Enrage too, to avoid serious balance issues with people stacking them. Then, it'd also have to be competitive with Forms, at least for TK-focused characters. That's not impossible either. It seems though, that the developers don't want to just clone the Forms, and I can't really say that I blame them. After all, wouldn't you rather have new and interesting mechanics rather than simply rehashing the same ones over and over? Particularly since up to now, they've somewhat tried to keep the "Super-Frameworks" distinct. Martial Arts has Focus, Might has Enrage. It seems like they'd like to give Mentalist something different than those two, rather than just cloning Focus.
Anyways, I do think that maybe they should go down the "Toggle-Form" route, and maybe differentiate it a little by having it apply a debuff to your enemies for the Energy rather than grant it on the stacking condition.
Here are a few of my ideas that i'll list again to give more purpose and flare to Ego Leech.
1. I'm glad I finally got some people to catch on to this and agree with me. Ego Blade Annihilation could consume all stacks of Ego Leech on a target, doing bonus damage per stack. Similar to how rupturing bleeds work. This kills two birds with one stone. You give Ego Leech purpose beyond crappy energy returns, and Ego Blade Annihilation better serves as a "Finisher" style attack.
2. Everyone seems to not like Ego Weaponry, but I love it for the numbers it produces in boss fights and it's low energy cost. Perhaps giving an advantage that consumes Ego Leech stacks and heals you based on how many stacks. This would give Ego Weaponry some purpose to act as a utility blade attack at higher levels.
3. For each Ego Leech buff you have on you (Currently max is 5) you're granted a defensive buff. The defense granted scales with your Ego.
I apologize if I conflated your suggest with someone else's, but since that was the only hard number I've seen anyone give, it was what I used. Regardless, I think messing with the activation times is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened. That number is just too integral to the power to be able to mess with much. I firmly believe Id Blades should be more of a customization decision, and there's just no good way to keep that kind of boost minor enough to be skippable, not affect the powers' costs, and at the same time be noticeable.
Not a problem. I always enjoy having a civil discussion with someone whos end result is making something better. It's clear we both passionately care about this framework and just want the best things to happen with it.
As for ID blades being just customization, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
The urgent concern right now is the AT. The AT will come with Ego Form, so the method for proc'ing Id Blades is irrelevant in that regard. What we need to focus on is making the Disciple as good as possible in the next week!
No, no, NO.
Once you release the Disciple it is too late to change it, and by extension too late to change TK. The damage will already be done.
Heh. You want to buff EGO? Make it do to ranged attacks what STR does to melee attacks.
What? Lower all ranged damage by 16% unless you have 70+ points of EGO? Because that's what STR does to melee. Melee is balanced around the assumption that the character has 70+STR. Getting that STR does not put you above the curve - you start off below the curve and have to put points into STR to raise your performance back up to par.
It's not a bonus for having STR, it's a tax on your attribute points which you have to pay to get up to the expected level.
Okay, look at them designing melee ATs without either enrage or a form.
I was responding to the "this should be obvious from the stats on the toggles" part of your statement. Archetypes being limited from using obvious buffs could be taken as an intentional choice to make freeform characters more powerful and therefore worth paying for.
I cannot stress how bad it will be to launch Disciple in a half-baked, nigh-unplayable state.
I don't think that the new idblades mechanic should feature a toggle. I think it should be inherent with ego form (still), but should be baked into some TK powers and advantaged into others, similar to the way Incisive Wit does things, except better.
It's not a bonus for having STR, it's a tax on your attribute points which you have to pay to get up to the expected level
I have several melee toons. The only one of them that has 70 STR is my TK blades character. My performance is not at al subpar so how is it that this is a tax ?
Comparing wiki numbers and actual play for some of the top powers seems to indicate that individual melee attacks (perhaps Haymaker or Dragon's Wrath) do comparable, or even better, damage to individual ranged attacks (such as perhaps Defile or Ebon Ruin) even without the 20% buff from STR.
I have several melee toons. The only one of them that has 70 STR is my TK blades character. My performance is not at al subpar so how is it that this is a tax ?
Comparing wiki numbers and actual play for some of the top powers seems to indicate that individual melee attacks (perhaps Haymaker or Dragon's Wrath) do comparable, or even better, damage to individual ranged attacks (such as perhaps Defile or Ebon Ruin) even without the 20% buff from STR.
As far as I know STR doesn't give any bonus to TK melee attack, it is EGO that is doing that.
I have several melee toons. The only one of them that has 70 STR is my TK blades character. My performance is not at al subpar so how is it that this is a tax ?
Comparing wiki numbers and actual play for some of the top powers seems to indicate that individual melee attacks (perhaps Haymaker or Dragon's Wrath) do comparable, or even better, damage to individual ranged attacks (such as perhaps Defile or Ebon Ruin) even without the 20% buff from STR.
Ego Blades do not get benefits from str. You're wasting stats, lol.
TK blades are the ONLY melee powers that require you to spend a power point (EgoForm=ID blades) to get your 20% melee bonus (From ego) 100% of the time.
Need some tips on an Ego Blades champ or something?
Comments
The solution seems to have been mainly Ego Leach. The problem with the solution, though, is the Ego Leach by its mere existence makes every other power in the set worse through making an already expensive set cost more. Coupled with that is that Ego Leach doesn't really make you a better fighter, as most are reporting that they still have severe energy problems. Plus, there is already an Energy Unlock; if it's not enough or not working, then make it work.
I love extra little mechanics, and I would love to see Ego Leach work, but I don't think Energy is the solution. Removing it and Energy makes all the other powers cheaper and better, which frees it up to give something truly useful to the set.
Since the main complaint for the AT as a whole is squishyness without oomph, then one or the other of those two should be the focus of whatever Ego Leach ends up doing. Some solutions (many of which have already been discussed) are:
make the TK blades set have a mechanic with the debuffs for piercing defenses, it would make sense that blades of mental energy could bypass some physical defenses.
make some mechanic dependent on ego, or add a form that gives an extra bonus scaling with ego.
possibilities,
increase crit rate
increase dodge
increase recovery
another possibility is add some knock effects
a small knock up effect when attacking mobs with TK debuff on it.
The essential problem with TK is single blade or double blade do the same thing better.
make them do something different.
right now my ideas are
better armor piercing
more knocking stuff around (not large knocks because that ruins their damage)
The AT is really really squishy btw. i dont know how its dmg measures up, but squish city
I didn't know it was possible to make an AT worse than Specialist, but somehow, it was done.
TK is just not ready. Ego Form needs buffed, EGO the stat needs buffs, and TK NEEDS better end management.
I like polarized builds like ego blades, but it's a little too much glass and not enough cannon.
...
There could actually be several more telekinesis-related attacks.
If would be neat to have a major pull-to, a lasso attack without the lasso.
Another option would be an Ebon Rift type deal, where you maintain with a heatwave type animation, and everybody within 25' just keeps bonking heads with each other, including pets, crates, etc.
Shadow Embrace, Vicious Cyclone, Tractor Beam are more powers that could be TK-ized.
Could also create a new long-range crushing damage attack by starting with TK Maelstrom animation but combining the rocks to form something like Focused Shot (a Storm of Arrows would be a cool variant as well).
...
The more I think about the powers, the more I agree with those who think the set should be split in two. Throwing existing objects with your mind and blades that do mental damage don't seem to belong together at all.
My main has been Ego/Recovery stated since launch - because I THOUGHT I was getting some protection from half the mez in the game. Joke's on me.
Nothing is gained from dividing powers into smaller boxes except LESS synergistic interactions. The current ego leech (live and test) is doomed to failure because there is nothing about energy efficiency that ties together the two sides of this set. It's a mechanic without a flavor. Honestly the designers have been obsessing over energy return for a while now and stopped developing flavor and variety of playstyle. Where is the mission statement for TK? What do the Devs want it to feel like? Right now the only observable answer is "it feels like every other melee set, just nerfed insensate." It has ranged attacks, but they don't feel integrated or worthwhile. Every ranged attack should feel like it's setting up a melee follow up. Even if the damage comes up and the energy floweth over in an unlimted bounty, the set adds very little to the Champions experience.
The PBAoE in this set would be sweet if anything else in the set helped you set it up. I'd love to have a competitive multi-range combatant, but that right there tells you neither of the existing offensive stances is valid - which means if you are gonna do a multi-range set you either need a new offensive posture (unlikely) OR you need to build it around a Tank or Suport stance. Making a multi-range tank would be awesome on toast, but it means looking at the tools in that light - secondary effects that enhance survivability. A multi range support build would be fine if the support was in the form of soft mez and battlefield manipulaiton - secondary effeects including lots of pulls and pushes.
Defining these kinds of goals, and working towards them would add something to Champions.
Yet another melee DPS'r framework with some forgotten CC and ranged attacks does not.
I'm willing to bet most of the original 8 ATs could waste the Disciple without much hassle.
Make a different AT out of powers that aren't as broken. I'm sure, through the passionate response evident here that this community will be more than willing to help create a viable AT out of existing powers that will meet the needs of the company.
Why not make an offensive Might AT? A defensive Infernal AT? A knockback heavy Force AT? None of those sets look like they'll be seeing passes in the near future, and for the most part, are solid sets.
We will work with you to make this happen, but please don't try to push an unfinished product. It will hurt us both.
Level 1: Ego Blade
Level 1: Ego Blade Frenzy
Level 6: Ego Blade Dash
Level 6: Super-Dexterity
Level 8: Ego Form
Level 11: Protection Field (yeah, we don't really have good stats for it. It's still a good power that's in-theme).
Level 13: Super-Ego
Level 14: Telekinetic Shield
Level 17: Form of the Tempest
Level 22: Ego Choke or Ego Blade Annihilation (Ego Choke is ranged, but mostly used for CC)
Level 27: Ego Surge
Level 32: TK Eruption or TK Maelstrom (again, mostly used for CC)
Level 40: Ego Blade Breach
We left out ego reverberation, but I'm not sure what it would replace.
Ego form must produce ID blades.
Telekinesis set must combine of range and melee skills to be used togeather.
Must have ego leech, what ever the effects are on them.
Telekinetic Maelstrom must deal physical damage because it throws stone.
The set skills must be high energy cost and high charging time because it uses range powers.
Framework must work with Ego super stat because it deals ego damage.
Their not gonna change the squishyness of this power set.
NO matter what better suggestions have been made for this set will not stray the developers away from their original telekinesis concept.
Until I hear otherwise from a developer, I'm going to assume that they remain open to suggestions.
1) The ID Blades effect needs to be easily procced without Ego Form to allow the more mixing and matching with passives outside the framework. Tying it to the ego blades powers (as the Devs. have suggested) would be a start.
2) (as said by others) EB Lunge needs a different animation and the NTG & Crip Ch advantages. It would be nice if it could be more modelled on Void Shift (e.g. granting Ego Leech on characters in the vicinity and possibly a slow or confuse effect).
3) Ego Reverb (thanks for changing the name!) and TP Reverb need to synergise with both Mentalist frameworks (ie Energy gain when struck with Ego damage) (or even better yet with all Paranormal damage!)
4) The framework and archetype need more melee-type crowd control/utility powers. TK Wave, Eruption and Maelstrom either take too long to charge or are maintains. Melee depends on a degree of speed/surprise especially when you are squishy melee. TK needs something like force snap and perhaps some slow/snare/pull effects.
5) It would help if TK Eruption (as has been stated before by others) could have its charge/cost time reduced so that we could get the benefit of the defensive buff without being slaughtered while we set it off!
6) Ego form needs more melee advantages. Ice form gets the chill/freeze/slow effects on those near or those attacking the character. Could Ego Form get something similar some kind of TK backwash effect your power reaches out and snares your opponent type thing?
7) Its still too squishy as a melee set. WOTW gets a dodge bonus that is easily augmentable via other powers (eg E.M. Elusive Monk) and gear, and the bonus is effective against all damage types. Perhaps TK could get some kind of defensive toggle (maybe even giving Knockback resistance based on Ego as well) that would augment dodge/damage resistance. Or perhaps the Energy Builder could proc a shield effect (as with Force)? More defensive advantages on the weaponery powers would also be a start (dual blades gets Eye of the Storm, why couldn't TK have something similar?).
1. Give TK a Form like Martial Arts. Put ID blades on the toggle. People, stop suggesting aggressor style toggle. Might/Heavy Weapons gets Aggressor/Enrage, Martial arts gets Crits/Form Focus. See the pattern here?
2. ID blades grant faster activation times than single blade. I'd hate for such a cool mechanic to go to waste on cosmetics.
3. Ego Form still increases Ego damage by a set amount, still has cost reduction, but now gives a damage resistant buff to all damage.
4. Reduce endurance costs.
5. Create synergy with ranged powers. Brawler stance and ranged doesn't mix.
6. Ego Blade Leech. Saps the targets defenses and converts it to you, granting you a damage resistant buff for a short time. Consumes all stacks of Ego leech, healing you depending on how many stacks. You can either make it so you get stacks of defensive buff or all in one chunk.
7. Ego Blade Annihilation. Consumes stacks of Ego Leech and does bonus damage depending on how many stacks were consumed.
8. TK eruption should mainly be focused on it's slight damage/damage resistant buff it gives. I've always viewed it as a power booster and nothing else. TK already has Ego Blade Frenzy for a close AoE attack. I also love the FX it adds to further show it as a cool enhancement power.
9. Fix the Lunge fx
10. Fix Ego Weaponry. I'm still at loss as to why it does less damage in ID blade form.
11. Fix TK shield. Let it block against all damage instead of just physical.
Those changes alone would put TK at a competitive spot. These suggestions also give a reason to actually get Ego Annihilation, and add a healing blade attack called Ego Blade Leech. They also create synergy with Ego Leech. Now the set has a proper finisher and a proper heal/defense boost blade attack.
Faster activation times would put TK blade attacks on par with Martial Arts attacks. It wouldn't have to be huge, but something a tad better than what we got now. Making TK eruption into a power that focuses on enhancing your damage and damage resistant would give it a clear defined purpose instead of "Yawn lame damage, Yawn lame boost" that it has now.
Let me also note, these are just a fraction of the cool ideas suggested in this thread. Reading this thread should make it childs play for the devs to make TK a better set.
I think most of the points you listed are good or okay, except this one. Unlike the others, which are generally fine, this one is somewhat questionable, and doesn't really contribute that much to solving TK's problems. I also feel that a lot of people are really, really underestimating how significant even a .17s activation reduction is, and how weirdly it will affect the balance equations as defined by The Spreadsheet.
I don't feel that Id Blades really needs to have such a big effect, nor that it should, given the way it's currently implemented. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that, since it's a baked-in component of the Blade powers, its effects must be calculated into the powers' costs, according to The Spreadsheet. This means that the powers will essentially be balanced around having it up all or most of the time, so the powers will be under-strength without it. This makes them less attractive to cross-frame builds, as well as penalizing people who might prefer the single blade animations.
I'd have to leave it to either a dev or something with the time to do a mathematical comparison of various powers, but I'm under the impression that there's a baseline number for what damage a power is allowed to do in a given time, for a given energy cost. Other effects, like Clinging Flames, roots, etc, all have a value associated with them that affects those equations as well. However, since activation time is such a small number already, modifications to it will likely have very large effects. Even the "minor" .17 reduction (from .67 to .50) that I've seen tossed around is a 25% decrease. That's going to have some pretty big effects.
Since Robobo was asking for the glaring problems with TK and the AT, in the interest of having The Disciple not be horrid when it comes out, I think the really show-stopping problems should be what we focus on, at least in this thread.
I like Pantagruel's build. I'd try to fit MR in there instead of Protection Field for theme reasons, and I'd probably make the choice be between MR and Ego Blade Annihilation. Then I'd make stacks of Ego Leech significantly buff all Ego Blade attacks (like how Ego Weaponry works in the latest builds), and replace the Form with the Reverb.
To address the earlier stuff in your post, I wasn't talking a number anywhere near .17
In fact, the number range I was thinking of would be .05 as I said it's a small buff but gives reason for ID blades.
As for addressing problems for TK and the AT, most of my suggestions DO address those problems, such as no purpose for Ego Blade Annihilation, being squishy, energy problems, etc. EVERYONE before me has already quoted Robobo and pointed this out, so It should be very common knowledge on what the first step should be.
People have already said stop rushing the release of the AT. It will only **** off customers. Release it when the TK set has been changed to make this process a crap load easier to do.
Why can't people see the problem with the AT lies in the framework? Stop suggesting bandaid fixes.
Ego Form gets buffed. Guess what? AT got a buff. Ego Blade Annihilation gets buffed. Guess what? AT got buffed. Framework gets a toggle. Guess what? AT got buffed. TK powers get endurance costs reduced. Guess what? AT gets buffed. I hope you see the pattern. The problem is the framework, which should be addressed first. Once those changes are made, THEN you release the AT.
You guys got this entire process ****-backwards.
TK eruption: should probably be flagged as melee and ranged
All TK powers should cost less energy, or ego leech/reverb mechanics need to return more energy
Ego Form needs to grant more bonus damage
Idblades mode needs to be triggered by more stuff, I'm down with a toggle but I think it's less fun than a mechanic built around say, consuming ego leech debuffs
Absolutely disagree on TK shield: the bonus resistance should stay physical, both for theme and for balance
On Panta's retool of Disciple: Ego Reverb should be at 22, and I'd probably get rid of PF (not saying it's bad, just that I'd personally do it)
I absolutely love the idea of EBA consuming ego leech stacks for burst damage, /signed /signed /signed
Avenger role should buff all damage, not just ranged damage
My proposed solution to the mix of melee and ranged attacks with ego form, is to have the ego blade attacks buffed by avenger role and run the disciple AT in avenger role. Basically the choice is to have ego blades boosted by avenger, or to have maelstrom, eruption, and choke boosted by brawler. Avenger needs a buff more than brawler does, "Ego blades boosted by avenger" is an easy to understand rule/exception, all other paranormal damage besides ego blades is ranged and hence goes better with avenger (thinking freeform), kinetic darts would continue being a viable EB for freeform TK blade builds. It's not a coincidence that things work out so nicely since TK as a set was originally designed to work with the old avenger role that boosted melee as well as ranged damage.
Yeah that would solve this issue as well, I think TK as a set was not given proper consideration when the old avenger role was split into brawler and 'new avenger'.
As for the missing martial arts form, I perceive an unusually large disconnect between the way players and devs view the importance of these toggles. It's a lot of damage, a lot of energy return, and the scaling with Dex adds more character progression (i.e. it makes the improvement from getting better gear while leveling more noticeable). If I was playing a Disciple and given the choice between ego form and form of the unleashed tempest, it would be a no brainer to go with FoUT. Ego leech / ego reverb is no comparison at this point, and it can't be buffed up to the level of a MA form without being mutually exclusive to MA forms.
If you could fit form of the unleashed tempest into the Disciple's build progression that would solve the problem. There just isn't room though, without giving up on ego reverb. A more radical solution would be something like reskinning ego reverb into a stack granting toggle with a similar damage boost to the MA toggles, but with energy gain tied to stacks of ego leech.
Given the nature of Rupture currently I think it's wishful thinking to have it be really respectable, but I can dream.
Regarding focus: I'm firmly in the 'nerf focus/enrage' crowd, but whatever, pretty sure we lost that battle a long time ago.
Because... what if they don't delay the AT? Should we boycott giving feedback, or should we do our best to make it suck as little as possible?
You do realize that it's not up to Akinos or Ame, right? It may not even be up to RoBoBo on whether to release this thing or not. So stop shooting down ideas and start providing constructive criticism.
I wouldn't tear out my hair if they made Id Blades have some inherent boost, but I don't think that what the blades buff itself provides should be very large, instead, give the "trigger-buffs" like Incisive Wit, Ego Surge, and TK Eruption most of the buff. That way, the Id Blades effect itself is devalued to the point where Ego Form, or even the much-discussed "Toggle-Form", can trigger it without being too much weaker for non-Blades characters.
Essentially, if they can't outright make it a customization choice like Emanation Points, separate the buffs from the blades so that it essentially is one.
I'm sorry if it sounded like I was jumping on you. Some of your other suggestions were good, I just started writing on the Id Blades one because I keep seeing that particular suggestion floated and I really, really think it's a bad idea.
I totally agree that the AT and the Framework are inextricably tied. However, since their last word on this was that they're going to push the AT out regardless, I at least want to make sure they know what everyone thinks is wrong with it. I don't want to give up on the Framework review either, but at least we can focus on the things that make the AT dysfunctional.
That said, here are the problems I see with the AT:
The energy management and the lack of punch go hand-in-hand.
Since Ego Reverb/Ego Leech are such a weak energy mechanic, and because the AT is locked into DEX/EGO, it doesn't have the energy income to afford its own attacks. Energy on Defeat is next-to useless, and should not be a base component of the powers. It's just too niche to use in a lot of situations, so being forced to pay out the nose for it sucks.
Since DEX/EGO competes with all of the Energy stats, the AT really has to have solid energy-gaining powers. A lot of people have suggested a Form of the Tempest-clone. Whatever it is, there needs to be more things that provide additional benefits from stack EGO, by far the worst stat. Giving Ego Form a mechanic like Quarry's Audacity stacks would work great, potentially giving some END, REC, INT, or even a flat-out power discount, as a buff that scaled with EGO.
As for the powers themselves, I agree with a lot of what's been said: the charge times and energy costs are too high, even before the increases to account for Ego Leech. (Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe it was left out of the balance equations for a reason? Do you guys have records on that stuff?) Annihilate lacks purpose, giving it the ability to "rupture" Ego Leech or Breach stacks for additional effects would play to the "finisher" style of the power better that what it has currently.
EGO should do something else besides crit severity. I don't know what it should do, but a new function that has something to do with killing things needs to be folded into EGO. Not CC duration (that's bad news). I think the problem is that there are too many stats and not enough functions; if this were closed beta prior to CO launch I'd suggest dropping EGO altogether and folding crit severity into PRE. I realize it makes PRE too good, but whatever, I don't care :P
Given how EGO competes against INT and END on gear, and how the AT has really bad energy management, maybe it should be something else Energy related. (Currently, it determines how much you get from Blocking)
I'm not sure what it could realistically be though. It might be better just to give the AT a power, potentially Ego Form, that gives them some energy-related benefits that scale with EGO, in addition to strengthening Ego Reverb.
Personally, I'd like to see TK go back to being CON/EGO, but making that viable would take way more work than it's worth.
I TOTALLY get this is not your decision (we all blame a bean counter somewhere...) but saying the set still needs work but your releasing the AT for sale anyway is an epic fail. We all understand delays for quality but every AT is potentially a new player turned off the game forever.
Think harder Homer....
edit: This isn't like saying we're putting in framework changes now and adding more later. This is a sale item that will be charged for in and of itself. A commercial product that you know has flaws is only going to lead to more problems.
I forget who, but someone once suggested having Ego reduce charge times in a manner similar to Int's energy cost reduction. Of course this would absolutely kill LR in PvP, but I think that there are plenty of functions that could be added in theory. Implementing them is something else entirely of course.
I disagree because I don't take "passives should be better than toggles" as an assumption, I just view the situation on live as every melee character who wants to do competitive dps takes either an MA form or enrage with an aspect, those two options are balanced with each other and different enough to make it an interesting choice. Enrage and toggles are better than passives but I don't view that as a problem, and I think the net effect of nerfing DPS is to make NPC fights last longer, which also has no appeal.
Sure, that would make it easy, but since many archetypes are forced to take suboptimal tier 0 power choices I figured removing ego weaponry isn't an option.
Just to throw my two cents in, why are you comparing Toggles and Passives in the first place? I mean, other than their relative strengths power-to-power, and in certain ranged builds, they don't compete the toggles and the passives don't really compete. From what I see, most of the time the current competition is between the MA Forms vs. Enrage+Aspect. Outside of AoPM builds, which are usually ranged, the Passive is something to be used in addition to the Toggles, as far as I've seen; Might will usually use Unstoppable, MA (and some Bestial builds) use Way of the Warrior, etc.
I'm not sure how they've worked that with the ATs, because honestly, up to this point I haven't really cared, but it seems like since the Disciple has neither Focus nor Enrage, nor a new mechanic to compete with either of them, its performance suffers.
The problem with that would be having to account for it on every power, since Ego Leech is baked-in. As long as Ego Leech remains integrated like that, it will either need to be very minor like other baked-in effects, such as Fear, or its cost will be too high. If they were to say, off-load it to a passive or toggle, that would solve the cost issue, but might raise new problems.
As a passive, I have no idea how that would work number-wise, though Pestilence would suggest that it's not an impossible problem. As a toggle, though, it'd probably have to be exclusive to Forms, and maybe Enrage too, to avoid serious balance issues with people stacking them. Then, it'd also have to be competitive with Forms, at least for TK-focused characters. That's not impossible either. It seems though, that the developers don't want to just clone the Forms, and I can't really say that I blame them. After all, wouldn't you rather have new and interesting mechanics rather than simply rehashing the same ones over and over? Particularly since up to now, they've somewhat tried to keep the "Super-Frameworks" distinct. Martial Arts has Focus, Might has Enrage. It seems like they'd like to give Mentalist something different than those two, rather than just cloning Focus.
Anyways, I do think that maybe they should go down the "Toggle-Form" route, and maybe differentiate it a little by having it apply a debuff to your enemies for the Energy rather than grant it on the stacking condition.
1. I'm glad I finally got some people to catch on to this and agree with me. Ego Blade Annihilation could consume all stacks of Ego Leech on a target, doing bonus damage per stack. Similar to how rupturing bleeds work. This kills two birds with one stone. You give Ego Leech purpose beyond crappy energy returns, and Ego Blade Annihilation better serves as a "Finisher" style attack.
2. Everyone seems to not like Ego Weaponry, but I love it for the numbers it produces in boss fights and it's low energy cost. Perhaps giving an advantage that consumes Ego Leech stacks and heals you based on how many stacks. This would give Ego Weaponry some purpose to act as a utility blade attack at higher levels.
3. For each Ego Leech buff you have on you (Currently max is 5) you're granted a defensive buff. The defense granted scales with your Ego.
Not a problem. I always enjoy having a civil discussion with someone whos end result is making something better. It's clear we both passionately care about this framework and just want the best things to happen with it.
As for ID blades being just customization, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
No, no, NO.
Once you release the Disciple it is too late to change it, and by extension too late to change TK. The damage will already be done.
What? Lower all ranged damage by 16% unless you have 70+ points of EGO? Because that's what STR does to melee. Melee is balanced around the assumption that the character has 70+STR. Getting that STR does not put you above the curve - you start off below the curve and have to put points into STR to raise your performance back up to par.
It's not a bonus for having STR, it's a tax on your attribute points which you have to pay to get up to the expected level.
I vote 'no' to this.
I was responding to the "this should be obvious from the stats on the toggles" part of your statement. Archetypes being limited from using obvious buffs could be taken as an intentional choice to make freeform characters more powerful and therefore worth paying for.
You do realize it's not up to you, right?
"Oh crap! My AT got changed, i guess i'll have to use the FREE retcon they gave me!"
I'll take the delay TYVfM
IMhO, do what ever it takes to get it done right the first time.
Because we may never get another shot at it
I don't think that the new idblades mechanic should feature a toggle. I think it should be inherent with ego form (still), but should be baked into some TK powers and advantaged into others, similar to the way Incisive Wit does things, except better.
I have several melee toons. The only one of them that has 70 STR is my TK blades character. My performance is not at al subpar so how is it that this is a tax ?
Comparing wiki numbers and actual play for some of the top powers seems to indicate that individual melee attacks (perhaps Haymaker or Dragon's Wrath) do comparable, or even better, damage to individual ranged attacks (such as perhaps Defile or Ebon Ruin) even without the 20% buff from STR.
As far as I know STR doesn't give any bonus to TK melee attack, it is EGO that is doing that.
Ego Blades do not get benefits from str. You're wasting stats, lol.
TK blades are the ONLY melee powers that require you to spend a power point (EgoForm=ID blades) to get your 20% melee bonus (From ego) 100% of the time.
Need some tips on an Ego Blades champ or something?