Ame, i figured it would be a tricky fix but aim glad you came out and addressed it. :cool:
I know there are some concerns about the changes this bug fix would bring but, are we realy concerned that melee would go back to being gimped just because they have to be subject to roots like every one else. More importantly, is it fair for players to expect a balanced game and at the same time expect bugs balance the game for us?
Lets get these bugs fixed so that when Ame get a chance to look at CC in depth (which he surly will when time permits) there wont be any loose strings hanging around.
Since we're talking about Lunging out of Roots, can I do this then?
BUG: Dragon's Wrath is an absurdly overpowered attack that makes the rest of the Dual Wield attacks (short of Sword Cyclone, which is another story, and maybe Eye of the Storm) completely useless.
Not only does it have an Advantage that everyone takes (as it allows you to go outside of the normal damage scaling of R3, as everyone who gets this power is Dex based), but it also cuts through any defense you might have (50% defense penetration), AND it gives back Energy when you use it (assuming you have Focus, which everybody does), thus allowing you to spam fully charged attacks indefinitely.
And while I'm here:
BUG: Fall damage is completely broken (as far as how much of it you take, and how it can't be reduced in any way at all, short of a shield you might've put on beforehand).
Very basic example: If somebody uses Shotgun on me, I should NOT be taking more falling damage from flying 5 feet into the air than I do from the damage the power itself does.
That said - you should not be able to break out of a Root with a power that's on a 3 second cooldown. The various Sheathe attacks which break you out of everything (or try too - I'm looking at you, utterly broken Ego Storm's Advantage) are balanced because they're on a 90 second cooldown, and turn on a 30 second timespan where you can't use another if you had it.
This is the core problem with Ranged vs Melee. Melee (assuming they have half a brain) have a Lunge power of some sort (on the aforementioned 3 second cooldown), so they can quickly get into melee range (so they can do their damage). Range's only defense against this is to slow/root their opponent. If they can't, they get clobbered.
Also, all Lunges allow you to put on BOTH Crippling Challenge AND a Travel Power disabler, in addition (depending on which one you get) to slowing/stunning your opponent as a core feature of the power. AND if said player is in Brawler stance, they'll auto-slow you as well because that's how Brawler works (which is another problem).
Roots, Lunges, and how Ranged can keep themselves away from Melee are completely and totally screwed up. There's a reason why most of your PvPers are Meleers. And that's just not right, nor balanced.
Also, all Lunges allow you to put on BOTH Crippling Challenge AND a Travel Power disabler, in addition (depending on which one you get) to slowing/stunning your opponent as a core feature of the power. AND if said player is in Brawler stance, they'll auto-slow you as well because that's how Brawler works (which is another problem).
You forget fear...
Yea I think that Crippling challenge and nailed to the ground should be mutually exclusive on lunge powers. Is there any other power in the game that can apply so many affects in one application for next to no energy and on a 3 sec cooldown?
Yea I think that Crippling challenge and nailed to the ground should be mutually exclusive on lunge powers. Is there any other power in the game that can apply so many affects in one application for next to no energy and on a 3 sec cooldown?
BUG: I Reapers Embrace doesnt have a .67 activation time...I mean really, that animation takes forever...
You can start a second power before the animation is complete (yes, its animation time is more than 0.67s, but mechanically it doesn't actually matter).
It's not clearly a bug, though; changing it would be a balance change (I'm not sure whether it would be good or bad).
Well... it is clearly a bug in our minds (Roots prevent you from moving, and Lunging is moving), but it also has obvious balance ramifications. I want to fix that bug, but it will likely require more than a patch note that says "Roots now prevent you from Lunging."
Since we're talking about Lunging out of Roots, can I do this then?
BUG: Dragon's Wrath is an absurdly overpowered attack that makes the rest of the Dual Wield attacks (short of Sword Cyclone, which is another story, and maybe Eye of the Storm) completely useless.
BUG: Fall damage is completely broken (as far as how much of it you take, and how it can't be reduced in any way at all, short of a shield you might've put on beforehand).
While you're clearly (and intentionally, I'm sure) taking things a liiittle beyond the intended context... sure, you can do that. Things like "absurdly overpowered" aren't really measurements for bugs, though. Saying "this says you can't move, but I can still use this power that moves me" is pretty clearly in the bug range (unless said power specifically said it ignored those movement impairing effects). However, both of the things you brought up, Dragon's Wrath and fall damage, are things we are aware we need to look at.
BUG: I Reapers Embrace doesnt have a .67 activation time...I mean really, that animation takes forever...
Without looking directly at the power, I can tell you that animation time and activation time do not have to be the same. We have a handful of powers (Ego Blade Breach pops to mind first) that have a considerably longer animation than activation time. After the activate time is over, you should be able to interrupt the anim by either moving or using another power. It generally does not look super awesome when this happens, though, so it's something we like to avoid, and may even try to change (either the power or the anim) if it is bad enough.
I'm not a PvPer, so forgive me if there is a dynamic I don't understand. But the problem with rooting melee characters is that, unlike ranged characters, they cannot attack while rooted as long as you're more than a few feet away. And I'm not entirely sure it's fair to allow ranged characters to turn meleers into sitting ducks. It essentially makes all roots into extended-duration holds, something they are clearly not intended to be.
I always thought a lunge's ability to side-step roots was compensation for this. But now you're saying it's not, so I'm a bit perplexed.
It's not precisely similar to a hold since you can still heal up and throw PF/MR on yourself while rooted. You can also use Knock To powers on the ranged player (an important anti ranged ability that few people bother to pick up since PvP is 90% melee characters anyway).
Ranged characters aren't faring much better when rooted. Melees close on them then, and do double the amounts of damage to the ranged with DW or DC in rapid succession. I'm a ranged build running defiance with 15% mitigation per stack and many players can two shot, three shot me in melee. A ranged character that's rooted isn't focusing on offense, they focus on getting out of the root as fast as possible just like a melee character.
So it's not a ranged vs. melee efficiency situation, root is deadly against both.
Concerning: Telepathic Reverberation. When 'Radiant Sigils' are active and the character with the concerned ability is within them, that character will not get energy gain from having enemies controlled. I assume this is because the energy balls can't see you but who knows. Slightly annoying on my utility build, but I just don't use them while doing CC tasks to avoid this situation.
In regards to roots. Once a root expires on a character they have a root resistance buff for X amount of seconds, so I don't think spamming root on a melee character will work too well multiple times in a given time frame.
the problem with rooting melee characters is that, unlike ranged characters, they cannot attack while rooted as long as you're more than a few feet away. And I'm not entirely sure it's fair to allow ranged characters to turn meleers into sitting ducks. It essentially makes all roots into extended-duration holds, something they are clearly not intended to be.
I always thought a lunge's ability to side-step roots was compensation for this.
Very basic example: If somebody uses Shotgun on me, I should NOT be taking more falling damage from flying 5 feet into the air than I do from the damage the power itself does.
I think some of this might be from the fact that you take WAY more falling damage if you are blocking than if you are not.
I always thought a lunge's ability to side-step roots was compensation for this. But now you're saying it's not, so I'm a bit perplexed.
If we had decided to make lunges have a considerably longer cooldown (at least 6 seconds) this could have been a viable design goal. With a 3s CD though, it is really close to "Roots are meaningless" for melee characters. Roots should be something both melee and ranged characters would want to use, as it allows them to position themselves where they want - either by staying next to their target if they are melee, or by allowing them to get away if they are ranged.
While Roots may successfully prevent a melee character that has no ranged abilities or pulls from doing any damage for a short time, it doesn't prevent them from using defensive abilities, healing, or blocking (though plenty of other things will be preventing this).
However, all of these issues are exactly why we aren't "just fixing the bug." We need to see what kind of effect it will have on the game before we make the change and make adjustments as needed.
If we had decided to make lunges have a considerably longer cooldown (at least 6 seconds) this could have been a viable design goal. With a 3s CD though, it is really close to "Roots are meaningless" for melee characters. Roots should be something both melee and ranged characters would want to use, as it allows them to position themselves where they want - either by staying next to their target if they are melee, or by allowing them to get away if they are ranged.
While Roots may successfully prevent a melee character that has no ranged abilities or pulls from doing any damage for a short time, it doesn't prevent them from using defensive abilities, healing, or blocking (though plenty of other things will be preventing this).
However, all of these issues are exactly why we aren't "just fixing the bug." We need to see what kind of effect it will have on the game before we make the change and make adjustments as needed.
I don't know anything about programming, but how about imposing an increased cooldown on lunges when they are used to break a root? Kind of like how active defenses impose a cooldown on other active defenses.
If we had decided to make lunges have a considerably longer cooldown (at least 6 seconds) this could have been a viable design goal. With a 3s CD though, it is really close to "Roots are meaningless" for melee characters. Roots should be something both melee and ranged characters would want to use, as it allows them to position themselves where they want - either by staying next to their target if they are melee, or by allowing them to get away if they are ranged.
While Roots may successfully prevent a melee character that has no ranged abilities or pulls from doing any damage for a short time, it doesn't prevent them from using defensive abilities, healing, or blocking (though plenty of other things will be preventing this).
However, all of these issues are exactly why we aren't "just fixing the bug." We need to see what kind of effect it will have on the game before we make the change and make adjustments as needed.
OK, fair enough. Sounds good to me. Thanks for responding.
However, all of these issues are exactly why we aren't "just fixing the bug." We need to see what kind of effect it will have on the game before we make the change and make adjustments as needed.
Maybe you could look at a few of the other crowd control related issues while your at it. Kill 2 birds w/1 stone yo.:cool:
If we had...
However, all of these issues are exactly why we aren't "just fixing the bug."
We need to see what kind of effect it will have on the game before we make the change and make adjustments as needed.
If we had...
...1 out of 10 responses like this to every problem proposed on the forums, we'd be happy campers :cool:
Comments
This is unfortunately not an easy fix. I'm working with people to see what we can do.
My testing shows it to be working fine.
I know there are some concerns about the changes this bug fix would bring but, are we realy concerned that melee would go back to being gimped just because they have to be subject to roots like every one else. More importantly, is it fair for players to expect a balanced game and at the same time expect bugs balance the game for us?
Lets get these bugs fixed so that when Ame get a chance to look at CC in depth (which he surly will when time permits) there wont be any loose strings hanging around.
BUG: Dragon's Wrath is an absurdly overpowered attack that makes the rest of the Dual Wield attacks (short of Sword Cyclone, which is another story, and maybe Eye of the Storm) completely useless.
Not only does it have an Advantage that everyone takes (as it allows you to go outside of the normal damage scaling of R3, as everyone who gets this power is Dex based), but it also cuts through any defense you might have (50% defense penetration), AND it gives back Energy when you use it (assuming you have Focus, which everybody does), thus allowing you to spam fully charged attacks indefinitely.
And while I'm here:
BUG: Fall damage is completely broken (as far as how much of it you take, and how it can't be reduced in any way at all, short of a shield you might've put on beforehand).
Very basic example: If somebody uses Shotgun on me, I should NOT be taking more falling damage from flying 5 feet into the air than I do from the damage the power itself does.
That said - you should not be able to break out of a Root with a power that's on a 3 second cooldown. The various Sheathe attacks which break you out of everything (or try too - I'm looking at you, utterly broken Ego Storm's Advantage) are balanced because they're on a 90 second cooldown, and turn on a 30 second timespan where you can't use another if you had it.
This is the core problem with Ranged vs Melee. Melee (assuming they have half a brain) have a Lunge power of some sort (on the aforementioned 3 second cooldown), so they can quickly get into melee range (so they can do their damage). Range's only defense against this is to slow/root their opponent. If they can't, they get clobbered.
Also, all Lunges allow you to put on BOTH Crippling Challenge AND a Travel Power disabler, in addition (depending on which one you get) to slowing/stunning your opponent as a core feature of the power. AND if said player is in Brawler stance, they'll auto-slow you as well because that's how Brawler works (which is another problem).
Roots, Lunges, and how Ranged can keep themselves away from Melee are completely and totally screwed up. There's a reason why most of your PvPers are Meleers. And that's just not right, nor balanced.
Yea I think that Crippling challenge and nailed to the ground should be mutually exclusive on lunge powers. Is there any other power in the game that can apply so many affects in one application for next to no energy and on a 3 sec cooldown?
Hurl.
But its terrible. \<_<
Well... it is clearly a bug in our minds (Roots prevent you from moving, and Lunging is moving), but it also has obvious balance ramifications. I want to fix that bug, but it will likely require more than a patch note that says "Roots now prevent you from Lunging."
While you're clearly (and intentionally, I'm sure) taking things a liiittle beyond the intended context... sure, you can do that. Things like "absurdly overpowered" aren't really measurements for bugs, though. Saying "this says you can't move, but I can still use this power that moves me" is pretty clearly in the bug range (unless said power specifically said it ignored those movement impairing effects). However, both of the things you brought up, Dragon's Wrath and fall damage, are things we are aware we need to look at.
Without looking directly at the power, I can tell you that animation time and activation time do not have to be the same. We have a handful of powers (Ego Blade Breach pops to mind first) that have a considerably longer animation than activation time. After the activate time is over, you should be able to interrupt the anim by either moving or using another power. It generally does not look super awesome when this happens, though, so it's something we like to avoid, and may even try to change (either the power or the anim) if it is bad enough.
I always thought a lunge's ability to side-step roots was compensation for this. But now you're saying it's not, so I'm a bit perplexed.
Ranged characters aren't faring much better when rooted. Melees close on them then, and do double the amounts of damage to the ranged with DW or DC in rapid succession. I'm a ranged build running defiance with 15% mitigation per stack and many players can two shot, three shot me in melee. A ranged character that's rooted isn't focusing on offense, they focus on getting out of the root as fast as possible just like a melee character.
So it's not a ranged vs. melee efficiency situation, root is deadly against both.
Concerning: Telepathic Reverberation. When 'Radiant Sigils' are active and the character with the concerned ability is within them, that character will not get energy gain from having enemies controlled. I assume this is because the energy balls can't see you but who knows. Slightly annoying on my utility build, but I just don't use them while doing CC tasks to avoid this situation.
In regards to roots. Once a root expires on a character they have a root resistance buff for X amount of seconds, so I don't think spamming root on a melee character will work too well multiple times in a given time frame.
I was thinking the same thing.
I think some of this might be from the fact that you take WAY more falling damage if you are blocking than if you are not.
If we had decided to make lunges have a considerably longer cooldown (at least 6 seconds) this could have been a viable design goal. With a 3s CD though, it is really close to "Roots are meaningless" for melee characters. Roots should be something both melee and ranged characters would want to use, as it allows them to position themselves where they want - either by staying next to their target if they are melee, or by allowing them to get away if they are ranged.
While Roots may successfully prevent a melee character that has no ranged abilities or pulls from doing any damage for a short time, it doesn't prevent them from using defensive abilities, healing, or blocking (though plenty of other things will be preventing this).
However, all of these issues are exactly why we aren't "just fixing the bug." We need to see what kind of effect it will have on the game before we make the change and make adjustments as needed.
OK, fair enough. Sounds good to me. Thanks for responding.
If we had...
...1 out of 10 responses like this to every problem proposed on the forums, we'd be happy campers :cool:
Bravo Ame, Bravo...