EDIT: You know what? I'm just going to take my own advice and ignore this person. They are now getting completely off topic and refusing to address the argument at hand, and when they do chose to they refuse see or acknowledge the obvious and continue to beat around the bush. Everything I've said stands and I doubt I need to explain this further to anyone who has a shred of understanding of the game.
I think that's a good call. One too many red herrings and all that.
I'm still frightened by these Electricity changes, really. To be honest, I'm very ready to believe in the new Cryptic and I love what they're doing, so I'm pretty much certain that they're going to listen. All I ask is that they try playing Electricity as a hybrid and not just as The Tempest and seeing how it holds up.
The thing is is that it won't. Anyone who's played an Electricity hybrid knows that, and no more needs to be said. The only thing that's different is that Ame needs to know that. I think that this will happen once a little investigation into the matter is done.
I used to be absolutely terrified when Cryptic used to do ham-fisted nerfs back in the day, but the Cryptic we have now seem very different (and far, far more receptive and chatty) than the Cryptic of back then. So I have hope, here. Really, give a hybrid build a go, guys. This... this is not going to be good if it lands on Live. Please don't let this land on Live without testing it as a hybrid. And if you do test it, compare it against Fire and Force hybrids.
I think that's a good call. One too many red herrings and all that.
I'm still frightened by these Electricity changes, really. To be honest, I'm very ready to believe in the new Cryptic and I love what they're doing, so I'm pretty much certain that they're going to listen. All I ask is that they try playing Electricity as a hybrid and not just as The Tempest and seeing how it holds up.
The thing is is that it won't. Anyone who's played an Electricity hybrid knows that, and no more needs to be said. The only thing that's different is that Ame needs to know that. I think that this will happen once a little investigation into the matter is done.
I used to be absolutely terrified when Cryptic used to do ham-fisted nerfs back in the day, but the Cryptic we have now seem very different (and far, far more receptive and chatty) than the Cryptic of back then. So I have hope, here. Really, give a hybrid build a go, guys. This... this is not going to be good if it lands on Live. Please don't let this land on Live without testing it as a hybrid. And if you do test it, compare it against Fire and Force hybrids.
Maybe some constructive criticism would be a good place to start. So far all I've read is OMG WTF YOU RUINED GIGABOLT.
EDIT: You know what? I'm just going to take my own advice and ignore this person. They are now getting completely off topic and refusing to address the argument at hand, and when they do chose to they refuse see or acknowledge the obvious and continue to beat around the bush. Everything I've said stands and I doubt I need to explain this further to anyone who has a shred of understanding of the game.
What is the argument at hand? That Gigabolt sucks for non-Electric Form users? Here's my response: So what, it's now a balanced power for Electric Form users, and that is more important.
Maybe some constructive criticism would be a good place to start. So far all I've read is OMG WTF YOU RUINED GIGABOLT.
What is the argument at hand? That Gigabolt sucks for non-Electric Form users? Here's my response: So what, it's now a balanced power for Electric Form users, and that is more important.
Hey bro, force cascade still does 5k+ for people with any energy form, irregardless of set.
Heat wave can still break 1k+ Ticks for any dps char, irregardless of passive.
Etc.
Nerfing a Tier-3 like gigabolt *OVERALL* is a stupid idea, it's worse for everyone now, when it already pretty solidly underperforms compared to other options (Cascade, Conflag, Etc.)
Looking at elec from an AT Standpoint, it looks fine, REMEMBERING THAT FREEFORMS EXIST electricity still looks like a weaker version of fire with none of the utility, and only a minor fraction of the damage
I guess I can be thankful that my electric toon is already 40 with nothing left to do... because now it looks like its going to be left in the barn until i decide to retcon out of elec or just right out delete it to make room for something else.
Oh, ok... let me see, constructive criticism... Well let's take a loot at what exactly happened to gigabolt...
1. increased cost
2. decreased damage
3. gutted energy return
3 nerfs for the price of one. Individually any one of those might have been warranted, but combined? Overkill.
Waitaminute... <goes back and checks some of the threads discussing the Energy Builder Pass>
Does this mean you are going to un-nerf energy generation?!?
Hey bro, force cascade still does 5k+ for people with any energy form, irregardless of set.
Heat wave can still break 1k+ Ticks for any dps char, irregardless of passive.
Etc.
Nerfing a Tier-3 like gigabolt *OVERALL* is a stupid idea, it's worse for everyone now, when it already pretty solidly underperforms compared to other options (Cascade, Conflag, Etc.)
The change in damage is minor. The issue is Gigabolt no longer returns 150+ energy when it triggers Ionic Reverb.
Also, news flash everyone, they are not going to put Gigabolt back the way it was. So do something useful like comparing it side by side with similar powers and posting your DPS and DPE results. Make constructive suggestions like not having a charged Gigabolt drop your energy form and not requiring an energy form in the first place to charge it. Or having a full charge consume Negative Ions for a much improved energy return.
Hey bro, force cascade still does 5k+ for people with any energy form, irregardless of set.
Heat wave can still break 1k+ Ticks for any dps char, irregardless of passive.
Etc.
Nerfing a Tier-3 like gigabolt *OVERALL* is a stupid idea, it's worse for everyone now, when it already pretty solidly underperforms compared to other options (Cascade, Conflag, Etc.)
Looking at elec from an AT Standpoint, it looks fine, REMEMBERING THAT FREEFORMS EXIST electricity still looks like a weaker version of fire with none of the utility, and only a minor fraction of the damage
it's not just gigabolt.
Don't bother with him. I've given constructive criticism in this thread, as well as a more detailed post in the elec thread, he just chose to ignore it.
In the case of Giga, the main problem with it was that in AoE situations it basically funded itself anywhere from being zero sum to ten times over, depending on how you built. But because that was more or less the one redeeming quality to the power, taking it away has left it pretty much underpar to any of the comparable options.
Oh, and I think you mean Conflag where you first said Heatwave.
Don't bother with him. I've given constructive criticism in this thread, as well as a more detailed post in the elec thread, he just chose to ignore it.
You and I must have a different definition of constructive criticism.
Aaaaah crap. Ame, what did you do? Look, we all know Gigabolt was too energy friendly, but this can't go live as is.
The new energy return mechanic is terrible for non-electric form builds, you can't make a change like this and invalidate hybrids, especially slight ones that only went out on a couple picks, who ironically get hit the hardest by this. Without an energy form we have no way to charge Gigabolt on demand, which means themed electric characters that use a passive other than Electric Form (Like, I dunno, Lightning Reflexes?) have to go out of framework and pick specific powers that may or may not fit theme if they want to be able to consume Negative Ions with Gigabolt.
To make it worse, Fire is still better than it in energy management now, I've got a character with a Pre minor who uses Thermal Reverb and gets 17 energy ticks, and just has to hit Flashfire to get it going. Compared to the completely useless 7 energy ticks I get from both having a minor in REC and END with Ionic. Elec characters now have to jump through extra hoops to consume Negative Ions, which then proceeds to screw over their single target damage until they reapply it- using more energy- whereas fire needs no setup past tapping fireball at the most after dropping Flashfire.
I don't want to pick up Force Bolts on my Electric character. Magic circles don't fit him. Most of the other elec attacks that can consume I don't really like, short of Sparkstorm, which requires me to be in melee range and knocks everything around. All I've got is a click energy buff so I'm screwed. This is a dealbreaker for me.
EDIT: Why does Fire and Force both get such an easy setup and Elec has to jump through all these hoops? Force? Spam your EB and tap Force Shield, bam Force Cascades. Fire's attacks all flow into each other like butter, even with only the UA advantage. This is one hell of a double standard. Put consuming back on Gigabolt taps please, or at least either boost the energy return on the non-consuming mechanic or let Lightning Storm consume Negative Ions.
You wrote four paragraphs, and the last sentence is the only one with any sort of suggestion for a change. Also, you think Ame should fix Gigabolt because it doesn't fit your theme to work around the changes?!
EDIT: By the way, Xao, I tried out your build:
Electric Bolt
Electric Sheath
Electric Shield
Ionic Reverberation
Lightning Arc
Sparkstorm
Ball Lightning
Gigabolt
Laser Sword
Lightning Reflexes
Bountiful Chi Resurgence
Masterful Dodge
SS Dex/Int
and I had no problem clearing the 5-man Hard PH using only GIgabolt as my attack. I think you'll be just fine.
I have to wonder... I look around at the people I see playing that use gigabolt and I think to myself, "Why don't I see many people using any other power in the electricity tree?" Here's the answer: Because Gigabolt is the ONLY power in the electricity tree that performed anywhere near as well as powers from other frameworks. The other powers in electric just don't measure up, not just in comparison to gigabolt, but in comparison to all the other powers in the game. Did gigabolt over-perform? Maybe... MAYBE, not definitely, maybe. It definitely out shined the rest of the electric tree... as it should, it is a t3 power after all. Force Cascade out shines most of the rest of force, Haymaker out shines most of the rest of might. It is the reason they are t3 powers. They are SUPPOSED to be powerful.
I have to wonder... I look around at the people I see playing that use gigabolt and I think to myself, "Why don't I see many people using any other power in the electricity tree?" Here's the answer: Because Gigabolt is the ONLY power in the electricity tree that performed anywhere near as well as powers from other frameworks. The other powers in electric just don't measure up, not just in comparison to gigabolt, but in comparison to all the other powers in the game. Did gigabolt over-perform? Maybe... MAYBE, not definitely, maybe. It definitely out shined the rest of the electric tree... as it should, it is a t3 power after all. Force Cascade out shines most of the rest of force, Haymaker out shines most of the rest of might. It is the reason they are t3 powers. They are SUPPOSED to be powerful.
Now gigabolt is outshined by Lightning storm, both in Energy return, sustained damage, and effectiveness (CC vs. An adv that doesnt work unless you kill the target)
Why burn my energy form on the now-terrible gigafail, when i can just endlessly spam lightning storms?
Todd, what you don't get, is you don't get the overall effect of some of these more "Odd" changes to things.
Listen, I understand that people get frustrated when the power they like gets nerfed or even changed in any significant way. It happened with Captain Fabulous and Quarry, it happened with NikeOnline and Ego Sprites, and it's happening again here. But my response is to go on PTS, try it out, and see what the implications of the changes are. When Quarry lost it's huge energy discount, I went and built a perfectly good PA character that could still run three toggles using Targeting Computer. With Gigabolt, I tried out a full Rec/End Electric build, and just for good measure I tried out XaoGarrent's Gravian Strife build (http://www.champions-online.com/character_profiles/2946863/view), and Gigabolt performed just fine. (As in, clearing 5-man hard PH with XaoGarrent's build.)
I'm trying to bring a voice of reason to the debate, something to counterbalance the "Gigabolt is crap now" hyperbole. In the end, it's not going back to what it was, and I hope there's no lasting hard feelings about any of this.
Now gigabolt is outshined by Lightning storm, both in Energy return, sustained damage, and effectiveness (CC vs. An adv that doesnt work unless you kill the target)
Why burn my energy form on the now-terrible gigafail, when i can just endlessly spam lightning storms?
Todd, what you don't get, is you don't get the overall effect of some of these more "Odd" changes to things.
The funny part is that Conflag + Flasfire + Thermal Reverb is still better than Ionic + Lightning Storm. Heck, even without Flashfire if you manage to apply clinging flames with the chance. Then you've got the optional Fireball + UA and Heatwave + EF, all of which flow into each other in different ways and are solid powers in and of themselves.
The funny part is that Conflag + Flasfire + Thermal Reverb is still better than Ionic + Lightning Storm. Heck, even without Flashfire if you manage to apply clinging flames with the chance. Then you've got the optional Fireball + UA and Heatwave + EF, all of which flow into each other in different ways and are solid powers in and of themselves.
Bingo, Conflag can break 2k per tick with UA At R3 and fireform, noncrit, LS is lucky to crit for that with average stats
While this is justified damage-wise by it's utility (LS Has CC Adv) it still doesn't hold a candle to the amazing Synergy of Clinging flames and Thermal reverb
Bingo, Conflag can break 2k per tick with UA At R3 and fireform, noncrit, LS is lucky to crit for that with average stats
While this is justified damage-wise by it's utility (LS Has CC Adv) it still doesn't hold a candle to the amazing Synergy of Clinging flames and Thermal reverb
ALL the powers in The Electric Framework have their uses.
I get by just fine without relying upon GB as a primary attack.
And i'm sure i'll get by just fine when the changes hit live, as i don't put all my eggs in one basket :cool:
You all need to get off oddTodd's back.
He has his opinion on this, as do i.
And he's entitled to it just as much as anyone...
ALL the powers in The Electric Framework have their uses.
I get by just fine without relying upon GB as a primary attack.
And i'm sure i'll get by just fine when the changes hit live, as i don't put all my eggs in one basket :cool:
You all need to get off oddTodd's back.
He has his opinion on this, as do i.
And he's entitled to it just as much as anyone...
I really have no opinion in the matter as I respec'd out of electricty like 6 months ago but:
Maybe you have a much lower bar for acceptable performance than Xao does.
You're twisting things here, I think. In fact, oddTodd's latest response went unmentioned. He's perfectly entitled to an opinion - but without double-standards, so too are those who have experience with Electricity. Everyone is just stating their own experience and suggesting things for the balancing team to try.
The only problem I had with oddTodd's earlier replies is that he was being a contrarian without any actual evidence, and whenever someone gave him numbers or valid evidence in regards to how this would unbalance Electricity versus other frameworks, it was brushed aside in favour of confrontation.
My stance is still that I hope that the balancing team will do a little more experimentation. There's no point in removing synergy. Balance things so that they match other frameworks, yes, but if something is nerfed so that it ends up vastly inferior to other frameworks, what then? Nerf force? Nerf fire?
We've all been down that road. It's ugly. It leads to nothing good. And that's all I have to say on the matter.
The only problem I had with oddTodd's earlier replies is that he was being a contrarian without any actual evidence, and whenever someone gave him numbers or valid evidence in regards to how this would unbalance Electricity versus other frameworks, it was brushed aside in favour of confrontation.
I'm sorry, but the only one in this thread who I've seen has posted anything similar to numbers is oddTodd. Did I miss something, or do I just have a strange interpretation of the word numbers?
I go with that yes.
If it seems gigavolt was above everything else (I have an electric character and rarely use gigavolt myself, so I don't have enough experience myself), i would say we need then to nerf fire and especially thermal reverb.
To use the electric energy unlock you have to actively use electric power, to use the fire energy unlock you don't have to, plus you gain more.
Each tiem there is an event I see more people using flashfire and then go melee, than elec toon.
So I would expect fire energy unlock to be next reviewed, except if the huge nerf to Electric energy unlock is softened.
Now gigabolt is outshined by Lightning storm, both in Energy return, sustained damage, and effectiveness (CC vs. An adv that doesnt work unless you kill the target)
Why burn my energy form on the now-terrible gigafail, when i can just endlessly spam lightning storms?
Todd, what you don't get, is you don't get the overall effect of some of these more "Odd" changes to things.
Lightning Storm has half the range of Gigabolt and no charge-up potential for burst damage. Last I checked the energy cost of LS was higher as well. Essentially Lightning Storm should be more effective than Gigabolt as long as you have the energy to use it. If Gigabolt is just as useful at sustained damage as a 50 foot range power, that makes Lightning Storm useless except for theme.
For your other point about why charge up Gigabolt: one reason is to attack at longer range. Another reason is to deal burst damage and take out a spawn in one hit. Another reason is that it's generally more energy efficient to charge up powers than it is to spam them. If you dont find these tactics to be worthwhile, then ditch Gigabolt and take Lightning Storm.
Lightning Storm has half the range of Gigabolt and no charge-up potential for burst damage. Last I checked the energy cost of LS was higher as well. Essentially Lightning Storm should be more effective than Gigabolt as long as you have the energy to use it. If Gigabolt is just as useful at sustained damage as a 50 foot range power, that makes Lightning Storm useless except for theme.
For your other point about why charge up Gigabolt: one reason is to attack at longer range. Another reason is to deal burst damage and take out a spawn in one hit. Another reason is that it's generally more energy efficient to charge up powers than it is to spam them. If you dont find these tactics to be worthwhile, then ditch Gigabolt and take Lightning Storm.
Charging gigabolt is a horrible idea, though.
Why? it eats your energy form, which nerfs your Equilibrium HARD now (Assuming elec form) and also nerfs your damage by *SIXTY PERCENT* at a minimum for EIGHT SECONDS, after a 3 second charge or so
That is a full 10 seconds at a minimum to get a full gigabolt off on a target, for around 5k damage at 40, not counting death arcs if you have it (Note: I Mean using it as your main spike power)
Ten seconds.
In that period of time, Lightning storm can hit *18* times, for upwards of 1k per tick with elec form (.5x2 activate, 5s max at .5s per tick, or around 18 ticks in 10 seconds (10-1 = 9s/.5s = 18)
Now then, 5000 damage + whatever you can deal in 8 seconds with half your damage gone (And you can't use a clickbuff because of the energy form cancel debuff) *OR* 10 full seconds spamming the maintain of your choice (Lightning arc, Lightning storm) for Well over that, with full buffs.
Yes, the maintains aren't "Immediate" Rewards, they take time - but they're many times more efficient in the long run, negating the need to take gigafail at all, unless you're going to use it in pvp, in which case, just take Rank3 force cascade and save yourself the pain - it'll hit harder
I go with that yes.
If it seems gigavolt was above everything else (I have an electric character and rarely use gigavolt myself, so I don't have enough experience myself), i would say we need then to nerf fire and especially thermal reverb.
To use the electric energy unlock you have to actively use electric power, to use the fire energy unlock you don't have to, plus you gain more.
Each tiem there is an event I see more people using flashfire and then go melee, than elec toon.
So I would expect fire energy unlock to be next reviewed, except if the huge nerf to Electric energy unlock is softened.
You.
No. Just, No.
Fire is the *ONLY* balanced elemental ranged set, and only because of it's energy unlock, because it lets it lay out solid, constant AOE Damage and ST Damage which keeps it well in line compared to other current damage builds
Yes, this is abused by melee toons running MA Forms, but crap happens
And you *DO* have to use fire powers - how else do you apply clinging flames? it's not magic - flashfire has a nearly 100% chance to apply it to all targets hit. Not to mention it also proc's off burn patches as well, which is where the amazing synergy comes from - Especially on toons that can fully-charge pyre as an opening attack
Other sets need *BUFFED* to the level fire is on, it's a perfect example of how a set should synergize within itself, and outside of that (Cherry-picking a few fire powers, like flashfire and fire snake + Thermal reverb adds great energy consistency to sets without it while also adding additional area damage, sets like unnarmed MA Make great use of this)
The electric Snafu we currently have is rather disturbing, especially after the kick in the pants force got that finally let it somewhat compete with Fire, Ice still needs a little work, but is mostly fine, Elec however, is still the ugly redheaded stepchild hiding in the corner and crying.
Please post a video of someone maintaining Lightning Storm for 10 seconds straight. Or maybe post an example that is actually useful for comparison purposes.
Also, maybe it's just me, but if I were a developer for this game, I would not take someone who refers to gigabolt as "gigafail" very seriously.
Wow, I've never heard of Electric described as significantly inferior to Fire, and especially never to Ice (or Munitions, Archery, Darkness...).
Gigabolt was always tap tap tap cleanup 100 bodies, the simplest farming power in the game. Get a piece of END on Kill secondary gear and peg your energy bar. Conflag is 50' range, and for real damage/energy you're talking about firing off two other 50' powers first.
I haven't seen a thread like this with people pulling out numbers since the days Cryptic were doing ham-fisted nerfs - nerfs they later had to fix with major buffs. The truth is that if Electricity gets nerfed now, then that sets a precedent for dealing with Fire. And this is going to kill Electricity for a lot of people running Electricity builds.
I can see me putting my hybrid Electricity guy into storage after this, because he'll be dead and completely broken, and there'll just be no hope for playing him at all. I'm sick of having to struggle when it's obvious that other frameworks (Fire) won't have to struggle nearly as much as a hybrid. And it'll be back to the old days again.
I just really, really, really hope that they go back to the drawing board with this, and look at what they're doing to bring it in line with Fire as has been suggested, increasing the general synergy, effectiveness, and output of the set so it's comparable with Fire, since Fire is the standard, here. If it's trailing that far behind, then... you know, it's going to be hard to recommend The Tempest to anyone.
The word will be not to buy The Tempest, but rather just to use the Fire archetype that's already there. And free.
I just hope they don't push this through just to get another archetype out there. This is the first set of changes I've dreaded in a long time. And it just doesn't make sense. It isn't fair. To say it again - I get balance, balance is great, but Electricity overall was never as powerful as Fire anyway, and now it'll be so many times less so than that, with almost no synergy inside its own powerset, as has been illustrated.
What I'm getting at is that Zere is right. If you make a hybrid and take a bunch of Fire powers, it works really well because of the synergy within Fire. But if you do the same with the new Electricity changes... well, it's going to be like shooting yourself in the foot and kicking yourself in the teeth. It makes no sense.
I'm watching this with baited breath really, just to see what the new folks at Cryptic will do...
Good job cryptic with gigabolt. It was too much powerfull before.
A character should not be able to spam a skill which kills everybody around him without be in avenger or brawler stance and without a offensive form.
Next step, nerf force cascade.
And finally some work in the stances, (big nerf in dps and a little up in resist for the protector stance, nerf resist for brawler which already have a very good dps and already one shot or two shots others characters without defiance, invul, LR, or 3 life bars pnj in pve) and the game will be more well-balanced and better for teaming.
OP powers must be eliminated and stances more balanced for a more healthy game, in pvp like pve.
/clap
Good job cryptic with gigabolt. It was too much powerfull before.
Next step, nerf force cascade.
And finally some work in the stances, (big nerf in dps and a little up in resist for the protector stance, nerf resist for brawler which already have a very good dps and already one shot or two shots others characters without defiance, invul, LR, or 3 life bars pnj in pve) and the game will be more well-balanced and better for teaming.
OP powers must be eliminated and stances more balanced for a more healthy game, in pvp like pve.
A character should not be able to spam a skill which kills everybody around him without be in avenger or brawler strance and with a offensive form.
/clap
You might want to be careful with these words around Cryptic. It can easily go too far.
You might want to be careful with these words around Cryptic. It can easily go too far.
I'm not afraid, if the majority of players were gone before f2p, it was because there is a lack of content but also because there is not or few challenge and no interest for teaming.
Because our characters can "tanking" and put 5k dps in 2 secs, or one shot with self healing and activables defenses.
If you make reference at the one day patch big nerf. The game was too much easy and quick for level max, maybe funny and pleasant for the ego to feel immortal but without any challenge.
No, i'm not afraid.
Really ?
It would not come to me of using another skill than FC or ancient version of gigabolt with my healer if I wanted to be safe quickly and being immortal.
But if it is rocked well for you, then it's cool for you.
Personally I do not find there are balanced, i'm not agree with you and I am satisfied with the work made on this patch with gigabolt.
A character should not be able to spam a skill which kills everybody around him without be in avenger or brawler stance and without a offensive form.
And yet many powers in fire allow for just this. I know because I've seen friends/guildies use it that way, and to a far greater effect than Gigabolt could allow even pre-changed. Shall we nerf the hell out of the fire powerset too, and force, as you suggested?
...this is going to go very pear-shaped.
Sigh. I hope this isn't how things are going to go again. If so... roll on Guild Wars 2. I said that a lot back when the ham-fisted nerfs were being dolled out.
This just isn't the way.
(L33T players will be the doom of us all. Elite isn't enough, we now need Super Ultra Elite. I've min-maxed so my powerset is too overpowered. Everything should be nerfed! I have top-of-the-line gear, so all content should be changed to be a challenge to me. Eesh. This is a great way to alienate the larger contingent that doesn't do the L33T thing. Seriously. If you want a challenge like you said, Gaelyn, then pick powers with less synergy and use crappier gear.)
Force cascade is already balanced by having a ludicrous energy requirement and the fact that it doesn't return more energy than it costs when you cast it...unlike the live version Gigabolt. FC does not need a nerf, it takes a fair bit of building around it unlike a slew of other powers I could call out...
I tend to agree. My experience teaming with dedicated Force users and dedicated Fire users is just different from giga-spammers.
This is not a numbers argument, this is a perception argument: I watch Fire folks I'm teamed with cycle their abilities and am inpresed with the steady carnage delivered and am glad to have them on the team fulfilling the DPS role. I watch Force users in group cycle their abilites, turning their enemies into keystone kops and occasionaly cutting loose with a riptide of death and value their presence as a mix of soft mez and DPS. I team with a giga-spammer and watch them tap the hell out of one button and see the game design for the encounter turns to ozone-smelling dust and think, "this is fricken' lame."
Maybe those other sets need nerfs too, I don't know. What I do know is that there is no other power more likely to make me regret having logged in and commiting to a NemCon or Therakiel run. It's not crucial to me that Giga-bolt be nerfed into the floor. It's important to me that it get looked at real hard with a really cold, beady eye. That one of the patch notes for it was "We borked the progression ratios" tells me this power has been screwed up for a long time, and that it's not JUST perception that it's ruinously un-fun in group play. There were real numbers underlying that impression.
(snip) L33T players will be the doom of us all. Elite isn't enough, we now need Super Ultra Elite. I've min-maxed so my powerset is too overpowered. (snip)
No power should ever do more than a hundred points of damage to anything no matter how many of what kind of buffs you stack on it or what role or passive you are using!
<resumes a more sane tone of voice>
And when people start leaving in droves again like we saw after the launch day nerf and in smaller numbers after every subsequent series of nerfs, then we will be back to the same small group of people playing that were here before FFA. Of course, some of those are no longer subscribing and now playing for free and some have purchased lifetime memberships so they have no need to subscribe and if they are patient enough no need to purchase points for the store. Cryptic finally seemed to be heading in the right direction with a series of buffs to powersets that should have been done long ago and if they had been done long ago, might have seen a slower decline in the number of active players.
Oh, Devs, if you plan to continue to shoot yourselves in the feet, you might want to reload the gun, its bound to be getting low on ammo by now.
Seriously. If you want a challenge like you said, Gaelyn, then pick powers with less synergy and use crappier gear.
Sure, i can do it. (And i do it). I can play with a game which isn't balanced and enjoy it.
But i don't think the majority players will do it and shall stay. Like before f2p.
What 'll the best ? Be 4x100 players in millenium city (like before f2p) in 6 months or december 2011, or continue to be 20x100 as now?
Refuse that the game is more balanced, in a world where the competition is rough and the customers demanding, only with the aim of being able to make his characters op, is simply suicidal.
I can make the effort of not min-max, you can make also the effort to have a little more challenge in game than to clean a room in one second with one skill and two clics, no ?
But, we're talking, we're talking, but this is cryptic who decide what it's need to do.
I will not respond at every quote. My opinion is given to Cryptic, It was my only purpose, in fact.
Good night everybody.
I feel sorry for Ame, who presumably has to read this whole thread looking for any sort of useful feedback. You know, something a little more helpful than "I can't believe you nerfed Gigabolt! You ruined my build, and now people will stop playing CO and it's going to fail."
I'm looking back at the history of changes Cryptic has made and after every time they nerfed a power or power set, the in game population seemed to get a little smaller. I'm not yelling "DOOOOM!" I'm taking a look at things that have happened in the past and relating them to the way things could happen in the future if the mistakes of the past are repeated. What do they call it when a person does something over and over but expects a different result from each of the previous attempts? Oh yeah, insanity. Well, if they fall back into their old pattern of nerfing powers I expect that we will see the same pattern of declining player base. Its the simplest of logic to follow:
"Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
"Well, don't do that."
"Wow, we seem to lose players when we nerf powers."
"Well, don't nerf powers."
Ok, let me state this: I haven't even played my electric toon in MONTHS. She's 40 and there's really not much left for her other than farming, which I HATE with a passion that burns with the fire of a thousand suns. I'll occassionally hop on one of my 40s if someone really needs a fifth for a nemcon or something but generally, they get left in the barn while I play other toons that actually show improvement when I play them enough to level them up. I have no plans to play her or to make another electric toon, but that doesn't mean that I don't need to be concerned about nerfs to the power set. And yes, I know there were some very minor buffs in the pass but probably not enough to bring the powers up from their lackluster state. Doing this kind of damage to the only power in a particular power set that people actually used without also bringing the other powers up to par with other sets is a set killer and people are going to get ticked off and leave the game. Maybe not many, but a few... and with the next nerf a few more and so on and so forth. I watched it happen through more than a year of active subscription time before FFA and I have no desire to see Cryptic nerf CO back into oblivion.
Please post a video of someone maintaining Lightning Storm for 10 seconds straight. Or maybe post an example that is actually useful for comparison purposes.
Also, maybe it's just me, but if I were a developer for this game, I would not take someone who refers to gigabolt as "gigafail" very seriously.
Brotip, ready?
Dex/Int elec form, End/rec secondaries
Use dark transfusion (No advantage, unless you want the damage, but i left it off for this)
Spam LS R2 with Adv, never use endurance
Repeat forever.
Now then, lets compare gigabolt to:
Ebon ruin
Chest Beam
Force Cascade
Energy storm (lol)
Defile
Shoulder launcher (Double lol)
something scary emerges: They're all infinitely better. both in advantages and use, out of all of these, the most direct comparison is:
Force Cascade V. Gigafail
Why? they're both T3, they both eat your energy form for a snack when you use them, they both are AOE, and they both hit hard
The Difference is, Force cascade hits like a freight train moving at terminal velocity, Gigabolt is more of a wiffleball bat being swung by a bodybuilder - it'll hurt, might even knock you out, but it's not very effective in the long run
Defile, Ebon ruin, and Chest beam all hit much harder (Chest beam is even buffed by elec form and doesn't eat your energy form) than than gigabolt, have better effects for long fights (Debuffs)
Even energy storm R3 can out-do gigabolt in an electric build. and thats mightily impressive
My point? there are better ways to nerf it, make it's energy cost like force cascade, buff up it's damage to match.
BAM! Problem solved - gigabolt is still powerful, Everyones happy, and you've effectively nerfed the tapspam
(Also, Protip: - my live electric toon doesn't even have gigabolt, because his build is much deadlier with chain lightning storms)
How about you guys compile a list of all the Overpowered abilities and why in this thread!
Gigabolt was just the begining, lets hit those other Grossly over performing powers and get them normalized.
Yeah, let's keep going. Nerf one power after another until you've managed to drive away everyone except that loyal few that stuck with you through thick and thin. Who needs money? You've got powers to nerf. Of course nerfing one power into oblivion immediately makes all other powers overpowered in comparison so the string of nerfs can be never ending as long as when you get to the last power you nerf it past the point that you nerfed the first power, returning the first power to its overpowering glory - only by comparison. Foxbat Online, NO! This is Nerfbat Online, where your character can make even the Mystery Men look like competent superheroes.
Ebon ruin
Chest Beam
Force Cascade
Energy storm (lol)
Defile
Shoulder launcher (Double lol)
something scary emerges: They're all infinitely better. both in advantages and use, out of all of these, the most direct comparison is:
Force Cascade V. Gigafail
I find it remarkable that nobody who thinks GIgabolt is weak now has bothered to post any actual numbers. But here you go:
I had SS Int, so these energy costs are low, but everything is relative anyway.
Fiery Form R3 + Defile R3:
2786 on full charge, 3682 if self-debuff applied. 2.5 second charge + activate. 68 energy. Single Target.
Shadow Form R3 + Ebon Ruin R2 w/ both advantages:
2587 + 146x6 DoT on full charge, 2691 for initial hit if self debuff applied. 2.5 second charge + activate. 59 energy. Single Target.
K.M. R3 + Force Cascade R3:
4523 on full charge, 3 sec charge + activate, 87 energy, 5' cyl., eats energy form, effectively (but not necessarily) requires energy form to charge
Electric Form R3 + Chest Beam R3:
2867 on full charge, 3790 of self-debuff applied. 2.5 sec charge + activate. 87 energy. 2' cylinder. knockback.
Electric Form R3 + Gigabolt R3:
2751 on full charge, 3560 if negative ions applied. 3 second charge + activate. 93 energy. 10' cylinder. possbility of arcing. eats energy form. requires energy form to charge.
Okay, now that's out there. Gigabolt is definitely the most AoE of the bunch. A 10' cylinder is generous, and the possibility of arcing adds even more AoE. Yet the damage per target is equivalent to Defile and Ebon Ruin's initial hit, which are only single target attacks. Ebon Ruin obviously does much more damage when you include the DoT. Force Cascade does substantially better damage, but it's a tighter cylinder with no possibility of arcing (or returning any energy). Is that worth the trade-off? Probably not, but it is a trade-off, so Cascade should do more damage than Gigabolt. Chest Beam does seem to be the best of the bunch, but a 2' cylinder is pretty tight, so you have to line up your targets pretty well. As a single target attack, it's definitely the best one in the list.
Considering these numbers, where should Gigabolt be?
There's literally no reason whatsoever to pick claws over fire or force.
Ah, so if one powerset sucks hard all others must suck equally hard. Gotcha. Guess you head from Bill Roper's school of how to best crash MMOs into the ground.
I see you're still handily sidestepping the horrible survivability of avenger electroform toons and the subpar performance in single target dps which I pointed at in the post you're supposedly replying to.
Here's a fact for you: gigabolt has only ever been good at doing something (killing a bunch of weak mobs) which everyone can do more or less effectively. Doesn't matter how much better gigabolt can get at that, it will never change the overall balance of the game because everyone can kill swarms of mobs, unless you're purposefully trying to gimp yourself.
As I said in the post whose all main points you've so skillfully ignored, gigabolt-using electric toons were the choice for quickly farming mobs, which usually means either you're gathering CTP components, looking for rare costume drops, or trying to gather all of the "kill XXX mobs of type Y" perks. Hardly gamebreaking stuff.
In the situations where top-notch efficiency COUNTS, you never see gigabolt toons, either electricity or not. This includes:
A) all PvP (electric form in avenger role... hahaha yeah right, one ego storm+MM and 2 DW later you're dead)
competitive PvE open mission events (Tako and Clarence farming) which get dominated by various types of builds (defiance + enrage super tanks, WotW martial arts, Seraphim-based dps'ers etc. etc.)... none of which uses gigabolt
You're also conveniently sidestepping the fact that:
A) all the energy return in the world is not going to help you at all if you don't have a mean of turning this energy into efficient dps to get the numbers you're shouting about, you need to superstat END/REC - the two most worthless superstats in the game AND the two which are both supposed to help energy management. You've giving up INT cost and CD reduction, DEX criticals, PRE heals and bubbles, CON hit points -- all for better energy management. If after leaving all of this on the table you can't even spam your main attack, then what's the point?
Why no one bothers superstatting END/REC on high end builds? Because this game has about a billion different ways of building toons which will never ever have to worry about energy, and none of the others require you to gimp yourself by the same amount of those picking up END/REC as their SS.
Elec has only ever been very good in what everyone could already do well anyway. Take even this away from it, and it has no point anymore.
Not that it matters to me anyway, I will just retcon out of it. Just putting out the word for the devs: go ahead with this, and elec is totally and completely gone from any serious high-end competitive build you might imagine. I mean, it ALREADY is, actually, but it will be even more so now. If you want to keep going the "make a very small bunch of whiners happy by nerfing gigabolt into the ground" route, you might want to start building serious sinergies between electricity and other basic game functions like survivability, healing, and single-target dps. At a very basic minimum, you should start adding serious amounts of electricity resistance debuff in several of its powers, so at least an electric toon can become a "build up mitigation debuffs, then fry them all in one glorious death orgy" battery. Who knows, we might even start finally seeing someone able to kill the defiance supertanks in PvP if you take this far enough.
Yeah, let's keep going. Nerf one power after another until you've managed to drive away everyone except that loyal few that stuck with you through thick and thin. Who needs money? You've got powers to nerf. Of course nerfing one power into oblivion immediately makes all other powers overpowered in comparison so the string of nerfs can be never ending as long as when you get to the last power you nerf it past the point that you nerfed the first power, returning the first power to its overpowering glory - only by comparison. Foxbat Online, NO! This is Nerfbat Online, where your character can make even the Mystery Men look like competent superheroes.
I'm sorry, is the core of your argument that "powers are never too strong", or that "once the Devs make a mistake they have to suck it up for all eternity"? Because your attempt at a slippery slope argument is pathetic. Busted powers have a negative impact on income too.
Tap spamming giga-bolt is over-powered. You KNOW it's over-powered. It's going to be less powerful soon. Hopefully not eyebeams less powerful, but less powerful nonetheless.
I trust the Devs will wipe the frothing spittle off their screens just as for the most part my purely subjective comments carries very little weight. Fortunately we're starting to see some cogent arguments like the post just above yours. Not sure I'm convinced energy storm is infinitely better than giga-spam :rolleyes:, but at least its a reference point to make comparisons to.
I find it remarkable that nobody who thinks GIgabolt is weak now has bothered to post any actual numbers. But here you go:
SNIP
Thank you. Can we get a second round on numbers like this for tapping these powers? I ask because it's not the full charge that's doing something crazy in my experiences - its the taps.
Considering these numbers, where should Gigabolt be?
The 10' cylinder means that you simply have a little more leeway in your positioning than the 5' cylinder with FC. But, if you aren't taking advantage of tactical positioning when using FC, you are a fool. I believe that they are both limited in the number of targets they can hit just like every other AOE in the game right? With both being charged up single hit powers that can hit a maximum of 5 targets, as opposed to maintained AOEs that can hit a different set of targets with each tick,I would expect GB and FC to be fairly equal, but such is obviously not the case. Perhaps GB should flag slightly behind FC due to the extra leeway in positioning but "slightly" is not what I'm seeing in the numbers you present. FC might not do as much damage without the energy form but it is still possible to fully charge FC without an energy form whereas with GB you cannot. It would expect the two single target powers to have lower energy costs than GB but the two AOE powers that do significantly more damage to potentially the same number of targets also have lower energy costs and do not require the energy form to charge.
Considering the numbers and other significant requirements, GB should be considerably better than it is.
Thank you for posting those numbers to show us exactly how poorly GB performs in comparison to cheaper, easier to charge powers.
Here's my problem with the Electricity powerset and mainly with Ionic Reverberation....
Ionic Reverberation cannot reliably return enough energy to fuel its own powerset, let alone other powers unlike some of the other energy unlocks (MSA, Spirit Reverb, Thermal Reverb, Telepathic Reverb and to a lesser extent Supernatural Power). If that is the intention, then the two most recent energy unlocks changed (MSA and Spirit Reverb) should not have been buffed to their current state.
Before the most recent change to Gigabolt I suspect people would have been slightly upset over their lower energy generation via tap spam Gigabolt but those same people would probably be understanding as to why. Now that Gigabolt cannot consume Negative Ions on tap the main way to get energy via Negative Ions *and* maintain relatively high dps is lost. Chain Lightning is the best bet, but the dps is lacking since it is a T0 power. Thunderstrike is reliable but on a 10 second cooldown and therefore mostly useless. Sparkstorm requires players to be in melee which may be a bad place for them to be depending on their build.
The precedent has already been set in both Fire and Telepathy that two powers can be used to get reliable and sufficient energy returns. Fire has Thermal Reverb + Flashfire and Telepathy has Telepathic Reverb + Ego Sleep.
My personal preference would be to let Ball Lightning apply and consume Negative Ions which would allow for a similar efficiency in energy generation to both Fire and Telepathy.
Ah, so if one powerset sucks hard all others must suck equally hard. Gotcha. Guess you head from Bill Roper's school of how to best crash MMOs into the ground..
Two things:
1. You missed my point entirely, which is that the reason to take powerset A over powerset B is to play a character with powerset A. I'd venture a guess that 90+% of the people who play this game care about theme. The fact that you would never take Electricity because Fire does more damage places you firmly in the minority.
2. "make a very small bunch of whiners happy by nerfing gigabolt into the ground" <- The small bunch of whiners are the 5 people who are ****ed that Gigabolt got nerfed.
Have you checked how Electricity performs in both DPS and sustainability in comparison to Fire on single target fights with no adds? That's where I'm seeing the problem.
Efficiency on clearing out groups of henchmen really doesn't mean that much to me. If I've superstatted End And Rec in a framework whose energy return scales with those two stats, then I expect to be able to sustain DPS on a single-target Legendary or Cosmic measurably better than I can with any other stat combination using any possible build. How much better is up to debate, but given what you lose superstatting END/REC, I do not see why it is reasonable for it to be merely equal, let alone less.
Also, I'm not at all clear on why you tested charge on GB - no-one uses the charge on Live because it's too much of a DPS loss while waiting for the energy form disable to wear off.
Do you have any numbers for using any of the electricity attacks on single target, to see how the framework as a whole now fares in terms of the sustained single-target DPS required for boss fights?
2. "make a very small bunch of whiners happy by nerfing gigabolt into the ground" <- The small bunch of whiners are the 5 people who are ****ed that Gigabolt got nerfed.
5 people? Wait till this hits live and pay attention to zone chat. Most people don't come to the forums at all, even fewer pay attention to the test forums. If you think only 5 people are going to be miffed about this you are fooling yourself.
Comments
I'm still frightened by these Electricity changes, really. To be honest, I'm very ready to believe in the new Cryptic and I love what they're doing, so I'm pretty much certain that they're going to listen. All I ask is that they try playing Electricity as a hybrid and not just as The Tempest and seeing how it holds up.
The thing is is that it won't. Anyone who's played an Electricity hybrid knows that, and no more needs to be said. The only thing that's different is that Ame needs to know that. I think that this will happen once a little investigation into the matter is done.
I used to be absolutely terrified when Cryptic used to do ham-fisted nerfs back in the day, but the Cryptic we have now seem very different (and far, far more receptive and chatty) than the Cryptic of back then. So I have hope, here. Really, give a hybrid build a go, guys. This... this is not going to be good if it lands on Live. Please don't let this land on Live without testing it as a hybrid. And if you do test it, compare it against Fire and Force hybrids.
Maybe some constructive criticism would be a good place to start. So far all I've read is OMG WTF YOU RUINED GIGABOLT.
What is the argument at hand? That Gigabolt sucks for non-Electric Form users? Here's my response: So what, it's now a balanced power for Electric Form users, and that is more important.
Hey bro, force cascade still does 5k+ for people with any energy form, irregardless of set.
Heat wave can still break 1k+ Ticks for any dps char, irregardless of passive.
Etc.
Nerfing a Tier-3 like gigabolt *OVERALL* is a stupid idea, it's worse for everyone now, when it already pretty solidly underperforms compared to other options (Cascade, Conflag, Etc.)
Looking at elec from an AT Standpoint, it looks fine, REMEMBERING THAT FREEFORMS EXIST electricity still looks like a weaker version of fire with none of the utility, and only a minor fraction of the damage
it's not just gigabolt.
Oh, ok... let me see, constructive criticism... Well let's take a loot at what exactly happened to gigabolt...
1. increased cost
2. decreased damage
3. gutted energy return
3 nerfs for the price of one. Individually any one of those might have been warranted, but combined? Overkill.
Waitaminute... <goes back and checks some of the threads discussing the Energy Builder Pass>
Does this mean you are going to un-nerf energy generation?!?
The change in damage is minor. The issue is Gigabolt no longer returns 150+ energy when it triggers Ionic Reverb.
Also, news flash everyone, they are not going to put Gigabolt back the way it was. So do something useful like comparing it side by side with similar powers and posting your DPS and DPE results. Make constructive suggestions like not having a charged Gigabolt drop your energy form and not requiring an energy form in the first place to charge it. Or having a full charge consume Negative Ions for a much improved energy return.
Don't bother with him. I've given constructive criticism in this thread, as well as a more detailed post in the elec thread, he just chose to ignore it.
In the case of Giga, the main problem with it was that in AoE situations it basically funded itself anywhere from being zero sum to ten times over, depending on how you built. But because that was more or less the one redeeming quality to the power, taking it away has left it pretty much underpar to any of the comparable options.
Oh, and I think you mean Conflag where you first said Heatwave.
You and I must have a different definition of constructive criticism.
You wrote four paragraphs, and the last sentence is the only one with any sort of suggestion for a change. Also, you think Ame should fix Gigabolt because it doesn't fit your theme to work around the changes?!
EDIT: By the way, Xao, I tried out your build:
Electric Bolt
Electric Sheath
Electric Shield
Ionic Reverberation
Lightning Arc
Sparkstorm
Ball Lightning
Gigabolt
Laser Sword
Lightning Reflexes
Bountiful Chi Resurgence
Masterful Dodge
SS Dex/Int
and I had no problem clearing the 5-man Hard PH using only GIgabolt as my attack. I think you'll be just fine.
Now gigabolt is outshined by Lightning storm, both in Energy return, sustained damage, and effectiveness (CC vs. An adv that doesnt work unless you kill the target)
Why burn my energy form on the now-terrible gigafail, when i can just endlessly spam lightning storms?
Todd, what you don't get, is you don't get the overall effect of some of these more "Odd" changes to things.
I'm trying to bring a voice of reason to the debate, something to counterbalance the "Gigabolt is crap now" hyperbole. In the end, it's not going back to what it was, and I hope there's no lasting hard feelings about any of this.
The funny part is that Conflag + Flasfire + Thermal Reverb is still better than Ionic + Lightning Storm. Heck, even without Flashfire if you manage to apply clinging flames with the chance. Then you've got the optional Fireball + UA and Heatwave + EF, all of which flow into each other in different ways and are solid powers in and of themselves.
Bingo, Conflag can break 2k per tick with UA At R3 and fireform, noncrit, LS is lucky to crit for that with average stats
While this is justified damage-wise by it's utility (LS Has CC Adv) it still doesn't hold a candle to the amazing Synergy of Clinging flames and Thermal reverb
For whom does the bell toll, thermal reveb?
He he he.
I get by just fine without relying upon GB as a primary attack.
And i'm sure i'll get by just fine when the changes hit live, as i don't put all my eggs in one basket :cool:
You all need to get off oddTodd's back.
He has his opinion on this, as do i.
And he's entitled to it just as much as anyone...
ZzzzZZZzzZZZzZZzZZZZzzzz
I really have no opinion in the matter as I respec'd out of electricty like 6 months ago but:
Maybe you have a much lower bar for acceptable performance than Xao does.
Just putting it out there.
You're twisting things here, I think. In fact, oddTodd's latest response went unmentioned. He's perfectly entitled to an opinion - but without double-standards, so too are those who have experience with Electricity. Everyone is just stating their own experience and suggesting things for the balancing team to try.
The only problem I had with oddTodd's earlier replies is that he was being a contrarian without any actual evidence, and whenever someone gave him numbers or valid evidence in regards to how this would unbalance Electricity versus other frameworks, it was brushed aside in favour of confrontation.
My stance is still that I hope that the balancing team will do a little more experimentation. There's no point in removing synergy. Balance things so that they match other frameworks, yes, but if something is nerfed so that it ends up vastly inferior to other frameworks, what then? Nerf force? Nerf fire?
We've all been down that road. It's ugly. It leads to nothing good. And that's all I have to say on the matter.
I'm sorry, but the only one in this thread who I've seen has posted anything similar to numbers is oddTodd. Did I miss something, or do I just have a strange interpretation of the word numbers?
I go with that yes.
If it seems gigavolt was above everything else (I have an electric character and rarely use gigavolt myself, so I don't have enough experience myself), i would say we need then to nerf fire and especially thermal reverb.
To use the electric energy unlock you have to actively use electric power, to use the fire energy unlock you don't have to, plus you gain more.
Each tiem there is an event I see more people using flashfire and then go melee, than elec toon.
So I would expect fire energy unlock to be next reviewed, except if the huge nerf to Electric energy unlock is softened.
Lightning Storm has half the range of Gigabolt and no charge-up potential for burst damage. Last I checked the energy cost of LS was higher as well. Essentially Lightning Storm should be more effective than Gigabolt as long as you have the energy to use it. If Gigabolt is just as useful at sustained damage as a 50 foot range power, that makes Lightning Storm useless except for theme.
For your other point about why charge up Gigabolt: one reason is to attack at longer range. Another reason is to deal burst damage and take out a spawn in one hit. Another reason is that it's generally more energy efficient to charge up powers than it is to spam them. If you dont find these tactics to be worthwhile, then ditch Gigabolt and take Lightning Storm.
Charging gigabolt is a horrible idea, though.
Why? it eats your energy form, which nerfs your Equilibrium HARD now (Assuming elec form) and also nerfs your damage by *SIXTY PERCENT* at a minimum for EIGHT SECONDS, after a 3 second charge or so
That is a full 10 seconds at a minimum to get a full gigabolt off on a target, for around 5k damage at 40, not counting death arcs if you have it (Note: I Mean using it as your main spike power)
Ten seconds.
In that period of time, Lightning storm can hit *18* times, for upwards of 1k per tick with elec form (.5x2 activate, 5s max at .5s per tick, or around 18 ticks in 10 seconds (10-1 = 9s/.5s = 18)
Now then, 5000 damage + whatever you can deal in 8 seconds with half your damage gone (And you can't use a clickbuff because of the energy form cancel debuff) *OR* 10 full seconds spamming the maintain of your choice (Lightning arc, Lightning storm) for Well over that, with full buffs.
Yes, the maintains aren't "Immediate" Rewards, they take time - but they're many times more efficient in the long run, negating the need to take gigafail at all, unless you're going to use it in pvp, in which case, just take Rank3 force cascade and save yourself the pain - it'll hit harder
You.
No. Just, No.
Fire is the *ONLY* balanced elemental ranged set, and only because of it's energy unlock, because it lets it lay out solid, constant AOE Damage and ST Damage which keeps it well in line compared to other current damage builds
Yes, this is abused by melee toons running MA Forms, but crap happens
And you *DO* have to use fire powers - how else do you apply clinging flames? it's not magic - flashfire has a nearly 100% chance to apply it to all targets hit. Not to mention it also proc's off burn patches as well, which is where the amazing synergy comes from - Especially on toons that can fully-charge pyre as an opening attack
Other sets need *BUFFED* to the level fire is on, it's a perfect example of how a set should synergize within itself, and outside of that (Cherry-picking a few fire powers, like flashfire and fire snake + Thermal reverb adds great energy consistency to sets without it while also adding additional area damage, sets like unnarmed MA Make great use of this)
The electric Snafu we currently have is rather disturbing, especially after the kick in the pants force got that finally let it somewhat compete with Fire, Ice still needs a little work, but is mostly fine, Elec however, is still the ugly redheaded stepchild hiding in the corner and crying.
Also, maybe it's just me, but if I were a developer for this game, I would not take someone who refers to gigabolt as "gigafail" very seriously.
Gigabolt was always tap tap tap cleanup 100 bodies, the simplest farming power in the game. Get a piece of END on Kill secondary gear and peg your energy bar. Conflag is 50' range, and for real damage/energy you're talking about firing off two other 50' powers first.
I can see me putting my hybrid Electricity guy into storage after this, because he'll be dead and completely broken, and there'll just be no hope for playing him at all. I'm sick of having to struggle when it's obvious that other frameworks (Fire) won't have to struggle nearly as much as a hybrid. And it'll be back to the old days again.
I just really, really, really hope that they go back to the drawing board with this, and look at what they're doing to bring it in line with Fire as has been suggested, increasing the general synergy, effectiveness, and output of the set so it's comparable with Fire, since Fire is the standard, here. If it's trailing that far behind, then... you know, it's going to be hard to recommend The Tempest to anyone.
The word will be not to buy The Tempest, but rather just to use the Fire archetype that's already there. And free.
I just hope they don't push this through just to get another archetype out there. This is the first set of changes I've dreaded in a long time. And it just doesn't make sense. It isn't fair. To say it again - I get balance, balance is great, but Electricity overall was never as powerful as Fire anyway, and now it'll be so many times less so than that, with almost no synergy inside its own powerset, as has been illustrated.
What I'm getting at is that Zere is right. If you make a hybrid and take a bunch of Fire powers, it works really well because of the synergy within Fire. But if you do the same with the new Electricity changes... well, it's going to be like shooting yourself in the foot and kicking yourself in the teeth. It makes no sense.
I'm watching this with baited breath really, just to see what the new folks at Cryptic will do...
A character should not be able to spam a skill which kills everybody around him without be in avenger or brawler stance and without a offensive form.
Next step, nerf force cascade.
And finally some work in the stances, (big nerf in dps and a little up in resist for the protector stance, nerf resist for brawler which already have a very good dps and already one shot or two shots others characters without defiance, invul, LR, or 3 life bars pnj in pve) and the game will be more well-balanced and better for teaming.
OP powers must be eliminated and stances more balanced for a more healthy game, in pvp like pve.
/clap
You might want to be careful with these words around Cryptic. It can easily go too far.
I'm not afraid, if the majority of players were gone before f2p, it was because there is a lack of content but also because there is not or few challenge and no interest for teaming.
Because our characters can "tanking" and put 5k dps in 2 secs, or one shot with self healing and activables defenses.
If you make reference at the one day patch big nerf. The game was too much easy and quick for level max, maybe funny and pleasant for the ego to feel immortal but without any challenge.
No, i'm not afraid.
Really ?
It would not come to me of using another skill than FC or ancient version of gigabolt with my healer if I wanted to be safe quickly and being immortal.
But if it is rocked well for you, then it's cool for you.
Personally I do not find there are balanced, i'm not agree with you and I am satisfied with the work made on this patch with gigabolt.
And yet many powers in fire allow for just this. I know because I've seen friends/guildies use it that way, and to a far greater effect than Gigabolt could allow even pre-changed. Shall we nerf the hell out of the fire powerset too, and force, as you suggested?
...this is going to go very pear-shaped.
Sigh. I hope this isn't how things are going to go again. If so... roll on Guild Wars 2. I said that a lot back when the ham-fisted nerfs were being dolled out.
This just isn't the way.
(L33T players will be the doom of us all. Elite isn't enough, we now need Super Ultra Elite. I've min-maxed so my powerset is too overpowered. Everything should be nerfed! I have top-of-the-line gear, so all content should be changed to be a challenge to me. Eesh. This is a great way to alienate the larger contingent that doesn't do the L33T thing. Seriously. If you want a challenge like you said, Gaelyn, then pick powers with less synergy and use crappier gear.)
Yes. You can see the image larger here~
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=126329
We now return to your regular ...spirited... dialogue
I tend to agree. My experience teaming with dedicated Force users and dedicated Fire users is just different from giga-spammers.
This is not a numbers argument, this is a perception argument: I watch Fire folks I'm teamed with cycle their abilities and am inpresed with the steady carnage delivered and am glad to have them on the team fulfilling the DPS role. I watch Force users in group cycle their abilites, turning their enemies into keystone kops and occasionaly cutting loose with a riptide of death and value their presence as a mix of soft mez and DPS. I team with a giga-spammer and watch them tap the hell out of one button and see the game design for the encounter turns to ozone-smelling dust and think, "this is fricken' lame."
Maybe those other sets need nerfs too, I don't know. What I do know is that there is no other power more likely to make me regret having logged in and commiting to a NemCon or Therakiel run. It's not crucial to me that Giga-bolt be nerfed into the floor. It's important to me that it get looked at real hard with a really cold, beady eye. That one of the patch notes for it was "We borked the progression ratios" tells me this power has been screwed up for a long time, and that it's not JUST perception that it's ruinously un-fun in group play. There were real numbers underlying that impression.
Hey! Don't bring me into this
NERF IT ALL!
No power should ever do more than a hundred points of damage to anything no matter how many of what kind of buffs you stack on it or what role or passive you are using!
<resumes a more sane tone of voice>
And when people start leaving in droves again like we saw after the launch day nerf and in smaller numbers after every subsequent series of nerfs, then we will be back to the same small group of people playing that were here before FFA. Of course, some of those are no longer subscribing and now playing for free and some have purchased lifetime memberships so they have no need to subscribe and if they are patient enough no need to purchase points for the store. Cryptic finally seemed to be heading in the right direction with a series of buffs to powersets that should have been done long ago and if they had been done long ago, might have seen a slower decline in the number of active players.
Oh, Devs, if you plan to continue to shoot yourselves in the feet, you might want to reload the gun, its bound to be getting low on ammo by now.
Sure, i can do it. (And i do it). I can play with a game which isn't balanced and enjoy it.
But i don't think the majority players will do it and shall stay. Like before f2p.
What 'll the best ? Be 4x100 players in millenium city (like before f2p) in 6 months or december 2011, or continue to be 20x100 as now?
Refuse that the game is more balanced, in a world where the competition is rough and the customers demanding, only with the aim of being able to make his characters op, is simply suicidal.
I can make the effort of not min-max, you can make also the effort to have a little more challenge in game than to clean a room in one second with one skill and two clics, no ?
But, we're talking, we're talking, but this is cryptic who decide what it's need to do.
I will not respond at every quote. My opinion is given to Cryptic, It was my only purpose, in fact.
Good night everybody.
"Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
"Well, don't do that."
"Wow, we seem to lose players when we nerf powers."
"Well, don't nerf powers."
Ok, let me state this: I haven't even played my electric toon in MONTHS. She's 40 and there's really not much left for her other than farming, which I HATE with a passion that burns with the fire of a thousand suns. I'll occassionally hop on one of my 40s if someone really needs a fifth for a nemcon or something but generally, they get left in the barn while I play other toons that actually show improvement when I play them enough to level them up. I have no plans to play her or to make another electric toon, but that doesn't mean that I don't need to be concerned about nerfs to the power set. And yes, I know there were some very minor buffs in the pass but probably not enough to bring the powers up from their lackluster state. Doing this kind of damage to the only power in a particular power set that people actually used without also bringing the other powers up to par with other sets is a set killer and people are going to get ticked off and leave the game. Maybe not many, but a few... and with the next nerf a few more and so on and so forth. I watched it happen through more than a year of active subscription time before FFA and I have no desire to see Cryptic nerf CO back into oblivion.
How about you guys compile a list of all the Overpowered abilities and why in this thread!
Gigabolt was just the begining, lets hit those other Grossly over performing powers and get them normalized.
Brotip, ready?
Dex/Int elec form, End/rec secondaries
Use dark transfusion (No advantage, unless you want the damage, but i left it off for this)
Spam LS R2 with Adv, never use endurance
Repeat forever.
Now then, lets compare gigabolt to:
Ebon ruin
Chest Beam
Force Cascade
Energy storm (lol)
Defile
Shoulder launcher (Double lol)
something scary emerges: They're all infinitely better. both in advantages and use, out of all of these, the most direct comparison is:
Force Cascade V. Gigafail
Why? they're both T3, they both eat your energy form for a snack when you use them, they both are AOE, and they both hit hard
The Difference is, Force cascade hits like a freight train moving at terminal velocity, Gigabolt is more of a wiffleball bat being swung by a bodybuilder - it'll hurt, might even knock you out, but it's not very effective in the long run
Defile, Ebon ruin, and Chest beam all hit much harder (Chest beam is even buffed by elec form and doesn't eat your energy form) than than gigabolt, have better effects for long fights (Debuffs)
Even energy storm R3 can out-do gigabolt in an electric build. and thats mightily impressive
My point? there are better ways to nerf it, make it's energy cost like force cascade, buff up it's damage to match.
BAM! Problem solved - gigabolt is still powerful, Everyones happy, and you've effectively nerfed the tapspam
(Also, Protip: - my live electric toon doesn't even have gigabolt, because his build is much deadlier with chain lightning storms)
Yeah, let's keep going. Nerf one power after another until you've managed to drive away everyone except that loyal few that stuck with you through thick and thin. Who needs money? You've got powers to nerf. Of course nerfing one power into oblivion immediately makes all other powers overpowered in comparison so the string of nerfs can be never ending as long as when you get to the last power you nerf it past the point that you nerfed the first power, returning the first power to its overpowering glory - only by comparison. Foxbat Online, NO! This is Nerfbat Online, where your character can make even the Mystery Men look like competent superheroes.
I find it remarkable that nobody who thinks GIgabolt is weak now has bothered to post any actual numbers. But here you go:
I had SS Int, so these energy costs are low, but everything is relative anyway.
Fiery Form R3 + Defile R3:
2786 on full charge, 3682 if self-debuff applied. 2.5 second charge + activate. 68 energy. Single Target.
Shadow Form R3 + Ebon Ruin R2 w/ both advantages:
2587 + 146x6 DoT on full charge, 2691 for initial hit if self debuff applied. 2.5 second charge + activate. 59 energy. Single Target.
K.M. R3 + Force Cascade R3:
4523 on full charge, 3 sec charge + activate, 87 energy, 5' cyl., eats energy form, effectively (but not necessarily) requires energy form to charge
Electric Form R3 + Chest Beam R3:
2867 on full charge, 3790 of self-debuff applied. 2.5 sec charge + activate. 87 energy. 2' cylinder. knockback.
Electric Form R3 + Gigabolt R3:
2751 on full charge, 3560 if negative ions applied. 3 second charge + activate. 93 energy. 10' cylinder. possbility of arcing. eats energy form. requires energy form to charge.
Okay, now that's out there. Gigabolt is definitely the most AoE of the bunch. A 10' cylinder is generous, and the possibility of arcing adds even more AoE. Yet the damage per target is equivalent to Defile and Ebon Ruin's initial hit, which are only single target attacks. Ebon Ruin obviously does much more damage when you include the DoT. Force Cascade does substantially better damage, but it's a tighter cylinder with no possibility of arcing (or returning any energy). Is that worth the trade-off? Probably not, but it is a trade-off, so Cascade should do more damage than Gigabolt. Chest Beam does seem to be the best of the bunch, but a 2' cylinder is pretty tight, so you have to line up your targets pretty well. As a single target attack, it's definitely the best one in the list.
Considering these numbers, where should Gigabolt be?
Ah, so if one powerset sucks hard all others must suck equally hard. Gotcha. Guess you head from Bill Roper's school of how to best crash MMOs into the ground.
I see you're still handily sidestepping the horrible survivability of avenger electroform toons and the subpar performance in single target dps which I pointed at in the post you're supposedly replying to.
Here's a fact for you: gigabolt has only ever been good at doing something (killing a bunch of weak mobs) which everyone can do more or less effectively. Doesn't matter how much better gigabolt can get at that, it will never change the overall balance of the game because everyone can kill swarms of mobs, unless you're purposefully trying to gimp yourself.
As I said in the post whose all main points you've so skillfully ignored, gigabolt-using electric toons were the choice for quickly farming mobs, which usually means either you're gathering CTP components, looking for rare costume drops, or trying to gather all of the "kill XXX mobs of type Y" perks. Hardly gamebreaking stuff.
In the situations where top-notch efficiency COUNTS, you never see gigabolt toons, either electricity or not. This includes:
A) all PvP (electric form in avenger role... hahaha yeah right, one ego storm+MM and 2 DW later you're dead)
You're also conveniently sidestepping the fact that:
A) all the energy return in the world is not going to help you at all if you don't have a mean of turning this energy into efficient dps
Why no one bothers superstatting END/REC on high end builds? Because this game has about a billion different ways of building toons which will never ever have to worry about energy, and none of the others require you to gimp yourself by the same amount of those picking up END/REC as their SS.
Elec has only ever been very good in what everyone could already do well anyway. Take even this away from it, and it has no point anymore.
Not that it matters to me anyway, I will just retcon out of it. Just putting out the word for the devs: go ahead with this, and elec is totally and completely gone from any serious high-end competitive build you might imagine. I mean, it ALREADY is, actually, but it will be even more so now. If you want to keep going the "make a very small bunch of whiners happy by nerfing gigabolt into the ground" route, you might want to start building serious sinergies between electricity and other basic game functions like survivability, healing, and single-target dps. At a very basic minimum, you should start adding serious amounts of electricity resistance debuff in several of its powers, so at least an electric toon can become a "build up mitigation debuffs, then fry them all in one glorious death orgy" battery. Who knows, we might even start finally seeing someone able to kill the defiance supertanks in PvP if you take this far enough.
I'm sorry, is the core of your argument that "powers are never too strong", or that "once the Devs make a mistake they have to suck it up for all eternity"? Because your attempt at a slippery slope argument is pathetic. Busted powers have a negative impact on income too.
Tap spamming giga-bolt is over-powered. You KNOW it's over-powered. It's going to be less powerful soon. Hopefully not eyebeams less powerful, but less powerful nonetheless.
I trust the Devs will wipe the frothing spittle off their screens just as for the most part my purely subjective comments carries very little weight. Fortunately we're starting to see some cogent arguments like the post just above yours. Not sure I'm convinced energy storm is infinitely better than giga-spam :rolleyes:, but at least its a reference point to make comparisons to.
Thank you. Can we get a second round on numbers like this for tapping these powers? I ask because it's not the full charge that's doing something crazy in my experiences - its the taps.
The 10' cylinder means that you simply have a little more leeway in your positioning than the 5' cylinder with FC. But, if you aren't taking advantage of tactical positioning when using FC, you are a fool. I believe that they are both limited in the number of targets they can hit just like every other AOE in the game right? With both being charged up single hit powers that can hit a maximum of 5 targets, as opposed to maintained AOEs that can hit a different set of targets with each tick,I would expect GB and FC to be fairly equal, but such is obviously not the case. Perhaps GB should flag slightly behind FC due to the extra leeway in positioning but "slightly" is not what I'm seeing in the numbers you present. FC might not do as much damage without the energy form but it is still possible to fully charge FC without an energy form whereas with GB you cannot. It would expect the two single target powers to have lower energy costs than GB but the two AOE powers that do significantly more damage to potentially the same number of targets also have lower energy costs and do not require the energy form to charge.
Considering the numbers and other significant requirements, GB should be considerably better than it is.
Thank you for posting those numbers to show us exactly how poorly GB performs in comparison to cheaper, easier to charge powers.
Ionic Reverberation cannot reliably return enough energy to fuel its own powerset, let alone other powers unlike some of the other energy unlocks (MSA, Spirit Reverb, Thermal Reverb, Telepathic Reverb and to a lesser extent Supernatural Power). If that is the intention, then the two most recent energy unlocks changed (MSA and Spirit Reverb) should not have been buffed to their current state.
Before the most recent change to Gigabolt I suspect people would have been slightly upset over their lower energy generation via tap spam Gigabolt but those same people would probably be understanding as to why. Now that Gigabolt cannot consume Negative Ions on tap the main way to get energy via Negative Ions *and* maintain relatively high dps is lost. Chain Lightning is the best bet, but the dps is lacking since it is a T0 power. Thunderstrike is reliable but on a 10 second cooldown and therefore mostly useless. Sparkstorm requires players to be in melee which may be a bad place for them to be depending on their build.
The precedent has already been set in both Fire and Telepathy that two powers can be used to get reliable and sufficient energy returns. Fire has Thermal Reverb + Flashfire and Telepathy has Telepathic Reverb + Ego Sleep.
My personal preference would be to let Ball Lightning apply and consume Negative Ions which would allow for a similar efficiency in energy generation to both Fire and Telepathy.
Two things:
1. You missed my point entirely, which is that the reason to take powerset A over powerset B is to play a character with powerset A. I'd venture a guess that 90+% of the people who play this game care about theme. The fact that you would never take Electricity because Fire does more damage places you firmly in the minority.
2. "make a very small bunch of whiners happy by nerfing gigabolt into the ground" <- The small bunch of whiners are the 5 people who are ****ed that Gigabolt got nerfed.
Have you checked how Electricity performs in both DPS and sustainability in comparison to Fire on single target fights with no adds? That's where I'm seeing the problem.
Efficiency on clearing out groups of henchmen really doesn't mean that much to me. If I've superstatted End And Rec in a framework whose energy return scales with those two stats, then I expect to be able to sustain DPS on a single-target Legendary or Cosmic measurably better than I can with any other stat combination using any possible build. How much better is up to debate, but given what you lose superstatting END/REC, I do not see why it is reasonable for it to be merely equal, let alone less.
Also, I'm not at all clear on why you tested charge on GB - no-one uses the charge on Live because it's too much of a DPS loss while waiting for the energy form disable to wear off.
Do you have any numbers for using any of the electricity attacks on single target, to see how the framework as a whole now fares in terms of the sustained single-target DPS required for boss fights?
5 people? Wait till this hits live and pay attention to zone chat. Most people don't come to the forums at all, even fewer pay attention to the test forums. If you think only 5 people are going to be miffed about this you are fooling yourself.