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I wonder... why don't we ever hear what they really think?
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Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
We know AP is reading our posts, cause he is responding to them... but despite the overwhelming sentiment I see here on the board that crafting is underwhelming and that anything which is good or which seems to be in-line with where teh game should be going from a player point of view is a bug or broken, the only response we get is "its working as intended" or some variation thereof.
There is a post on the main page called information problem... Someone is asking about the blueprints that show one stat at the vendor and another on the crafting window. The stats at the vendor are marginally better than the average drop at the target level of the item. The stats at the crafting table are marginally worse(or worse than that) than the average drop at the target level of the item. AP's answer is that the store is wrong and the crafting is right. Why is the crafting right? This seems totally backwards to me.
Maybe he isn't allowed to voice his opinion freely... Its very possible that his tongue is tied here. I've worked customer service before and I am familiar with that, but the responses we are getting leave us feeling like we aren't being listened to.
I just want AP to come right out and give us a clear answer as to what purpose crafting serves in the game right now, since average drops give me equal or better stats than the yellows and greens I can make, and often at lower levels.
There is a post on the main page called information problem... Someone is asking about the blueprints that show one stat at the vendor and another on the crafting window. The stats at the vendor are marginally better than the average drop at the target level of the item. The stats at the crafting table are marginally worse(or worse than that) than the average drop at the target level of the item. AP's answer is that the store is wrong and the crafting is right. Why is the crafting right? This seems totally backwards to me.
Maybe he isn't allowed to voice his opinion freely... Its very possible that his tongue is tied here. I've worked customer service before and I am familiar with that, but the responses we are getting leave us feeling like we aren't being listened to.
I just want AP to come right out and give us a clear answer as to what purpose crafting serves in the game right now, since average drops give me equal or better stats than the yellows and greens I can make, and often at lower levels.
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Power Replacers = Pointless, the sacrifice in stats is not worth the possible tick of 600 dmg. I have tested a lot of these and find most of them not to proc at all. Other than costume unlocks for friends, I wouldnt touch any of these.
Consumables = Probably most useful although some of the crafts get the bad end of the stick. A 4k heal is great but for it to hit you for 2.5k 30 seconds later, not so hot. The pets for the most part are useless.
Conversion = Takes to long to bother, covert all button please
Bags = Pointless, everyone can make them meaning next to no sell value. Unless you're lucky enough to pick the craft that allows you to create the 18 slots without a level requirement.
Specialisation = Pointless, crafted gear is terrible for the most part, even not bothering to follow the stats that the npc's tell you that you're able to stack. Minimal dex on my mystic even though its supposed to be a prime stat. The costume unlocks, some take stupid amounts of mats, others look worse/identical to costume pieces you have at the start.
Blueprints = Pointless. I've had 3 blueprint drops, all are aweful. Level 40, 400 mystic item, 30 pre with a 1% chance to summon a pet...1%??
Based on my opinion crafting is practically broken. The stats are to random, the amount of pointless ehancements is through the roof, there isnt enough variation between the specialisations so its basically just 3 crafts with diffrent names. Even costume unlocks can be identical just with diffrent names. I'm assuming AP is the head of crafting, if so I would love to see how he thinks this current system works. No malice intended, I just struggle to think that anyone would find this system anything but broken.
Looks like you answered your own question.
To add to your own self response I'll say that the game was not complete at release. There is supposedly a whole other section of crafting to be added at 40. And, its likely that that addition will be billed in some advertisement as "look we added content that you didn't have to pay for". When really its " ok this should have been out at release but it wasn't so... well.. here it is now. Enjoy.
Under that philosophy, crafting serves 3 purposes: provide consumables and utility equipment that will be rare/expensive otherwise (healing kits, shields, and bags), provide access to blueprints to alleviate a hole a player may find from a poor set of random drops, and to provide signature pieces that players may want for their characters (power replacers and costume unlocks).
This philosophy is best suited for aiming crafting at casual players (like CO seems aimed at) in a game with limited treasure rewards (like existed pre-vendor trash patch), where crafting is relatively trivial to advance (like CO).
That design philosopy may not match what some ardent crafters would like. If you were a developer and knew that was the design choice that formed the basis for the crafting design, would you set yourself up for a flamefest by telling those who want a different underlying philosophy? If you were the public face of the game, would you want the developers stirring the pot like that?
Yes, I would want them talking. Dialogue is always good. Any dialogue would be better than leaving everyone with the sense that no one is reading what they write. If you want a feedback forum, you have to acknowledge the feedback that is left... It really is that simple.
As for me answering my own question, and all the other posts in here... This is all conjecture. This is what you imagine might be the reason, not what is the reason. I would like to hear this straight from the horse's mouth.... Not that I am calling AP a horse, but...
Still, a general "This is the direction we intended to go/this isn't working the way we'd like" stickypost would be nice.
I agree with everything you said... That being said, I think that having a dev post and answer all of the issues we have with the current system(rather than talking about future systems and design elements) would be useful. Telling us over and over that it is working as intended is useless if we can see that whatever they intended, its not working. Even just a post to say that they have heard our complaints, maybe enumerate them(they are all variations on the same themes, there isn't that much to crafting that you can really make that long a list), and tell us they are working on it... some kind of acknowledgement that our input has been heard...
Not Customer Service, I'm one of the powers designers.
Crafting Upgrades should be the same power level as mission Upgrades at the same level and quality. If you get a level 18 mission reward or make an level 18 crafted Upgrade they have the same exact number of "statpoints" points available. The distribution and total will be different based on how spread vs. how focused they are.
So really there is absolutely very little reason to craft outside of a very few items and whatever devices you can make? Well also Power Replacers and random costume unlocks.
Not trying to be confrontational, just really wondering where the reason to craft comes into place if it offers nothing over simply running the normal content in game.
http://forums.champions-online.com/showpost.php?p=1232105&postcount=5
With the soft caps being added into the game, is there really any value in having "tightly focused paths" though? Why would I take a craft that has a focus on Strength and Endurance when I could instead simply get a mission reward that has both of those and Dexterity as well? From the sounds of things I'd be serving my character better by completely ignoring craftable items because they are focused. Or at the very least taking a craft that doesn't focus on my superstats.
Am I looking past something or is that hitting pretty close to home?
You can answer that question by changing 'when' to 'if' in there. There is only a relatively small set of items available via simple mission rewards at any particular level. There aren't all that many level 40 missions, for example, and only a few dozen items available out of hundreds of possible combinations.
You could just farm critters in lemuria for a few weeks until the item you want drops... but it's going to be much faster to craft it.
You are also a "Rewards Systems Designer" given that you are stating there is no "reward" for effort in crafting as you are stating its the same values as random drops I would rather you stay the hell away from powers as you seem to lack even a basic grasp of what the word "reward" means.
Or is it a case of "yes there's a reward - freedom to cover weaknesses without depending as much on chance; it's simply not good enough of a reward."
Or, you could check the auction house. Honestly, I've always been able to find pretty much exactly what I was looking for in there.
Maybe that'll change at max level but it's held true for the first 20 levels of the game and because there's no max time limit an item can stay listed, I don't really see why that would change. If anything, by the time my characters get to 40th, there'll be a glut of items in the AH waiting for me.
And aside from the detail that they aren't available at every level, there's no way to tell which ones are loot drops and which ones are crafted - but I'd expect most of them are crafted items. It's cheap to make and high-profit.
Having a level 40 I'll say that many of the mid 30 items are better than things you can craft at 40. So it's not a matter of 'if' at all. Just personal experience here, but I found zero upgrades at level 40 with 400 crafting skill. Things I had gotten while doing missions were always better. The only crafted item I use happens to be obviously bugged and something I posted about here on the forums and bugged in game to no effect.
When the soft caps go in (today?) those items I find while leveling are going to be that much better as they aren't focused into narrow paths. Why would I want a crafted item that is a point or two higher in stats but lacking diversity when I could grab a mission drop and pick up the same stats as well as another? All the while still hitting the soft caps.
I'm sorry, but everybody I know who plays finds the crafting system in CO completely flawed. The lack of documentation and the lack of upgrades being the main two things pointed out time and again. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the second is a problem which looks like it will be that much greater very soon.
There problem is I can do a lvl18 mission at what lvl15? and then I can put that item on straight away...by the time I get to lvl18 I'll have lvl21 items on...
Crafted items either need to be more powerful or fill a niche...
But doesn't this ignore the opportunity cost of crafting? If I don't craft, I have more time to gain experience, more time to find good drops and I can sell those drops for resources as opposed to using them for research. If the end result is that you can create items that are just as good as what you could have found grinding mobs or quests, then you lose, because while you were crafting you weren't grinding mobs or quests.
(Come to think of it, to heck with the opportunity costs, I am pretty sure this system ignores the tangible costs of crafting.)
Now, offsetting this is the fact that crafting is pretty easy to grind to 300, and slower, but still not too tough to go higher. Also, I can see that making a superheroic action game focus on crafting is a little silly. Still, gear is a big part of the game, and crafting with it and I am glad they are in... but as it stands it really isn't worth doing from a numbers standpoint and that is unfortunate.
Right now crafting items are equal to equal level drops of the same quality (as stated - if not they should be /bugged). So the problem is more or less the simple fact that you can get quest rewards from above your level, so instead of a comparison between equal items where one lets you have more freedom in choosing stats, you often have to compete with higher level items.
Of course this wasn't always possible. Until recently you couldn't equip higher level quest rewards (and if it weren't for the content gap and slight XP curve problem, I'm not sure you ever would've been able to) and if that hadn't gone in, it seems like this would've been much less a problem.
You'd have the choice between hunting down a mission that gave you the stats you needed (if one existed) or crafting something up. As long as you research every time you pass through town from missions (something that takes a very minimal amount of time) you probably have enough materials and skills to fill in one or two slots you need right there.
Rare? I have never had to craft any item on any of my characters. This is mostly due to the fact that getting the craft skills up takes so much time, that my crafting items levels are always lagging far behind my actual level.
The only reason for crafting I see in the consumables and crafting bags for your alts... but that can be done on one character.
I'm not sure if this was the case before they changed crafting, but as arms/fighting style spec I am unable to make anything that helps my build (dex/ego). Perhaps I have made the wrong choice in crafting specialisation to start with, but that's not the point. Each skill should be able to make comparable items to what I have gained as mission rewards and sadly this is not the case.
I have reason to believe the crafting system is not finished yet though (UNTIL HQ is supposed to have crafting tables that we can't use yet, and the missions allow us to find components that also can't be used yet) so hopefully there will be more/better content to be added soon.
One final note, I did notice that the amount of options for adding to the custom built gear was reduced drastically (which the developers stated was supposed to be the case) but the trainers still sell them all and since we don't know which ones we can use we are forced to buy them all, even though we can only use a fraction of them. I can't see that this is meant to be intentional.
There is a secondary problem and that is the difference between quality ranks and gear level are relatively low.
The best enhanceable gear my main can make is rare level 38 that's the best blueprints sold for cash by the vendors -- I haven't seen anything better in game yet.
A blue 38 is equivalent to a green 39 and a yellow(? I'm colour-blind -- I may have the colouring wrong) level 40. Even with the vendor-trash patch reduction in uncommon+ quality drops, finding yellow+ quality is not a rarity. A white level 40 -- extraordinarily common these days -- is just one step down from the best configurable item I can make. So getting gear --almost as good-- as craftable is trivial from vendor trash. Almost as good in this case means maybe -1 stat point and -0.1 defences.
So a character should equip with whites and replace with better as it is awarded from quests and/or found in the field. Continue to re-equip over the life of the character and you'll probably never have a serious hole to fill with crafting barring extraordinarily bad luck with the random number generator.
Equipment holes were much more likely to occur pre-vendor trash patch as the probability of drops was much much lower.
I'm fairly sure you can use all the enhancements sold. Originally, you could any enhancement on any slot of gear and that is what was changed. Specific enhancements are now tied to specific slots.
Yes, you are correct, my current definition of "worth doing" is "better than adventuring" because frankly, the cost is "more than adventuring." But I think the main issue is more than this...
I do think you've hit on a big part of the current problem... which ties to the issue of needing more quests. Before the change to quest rewards and the drop chances, I might have actually had item gaps I needed to fill with crafting. As it stands today, there are very few item gaps.
So, now that they have fixed the economy and allowed us to equip our quest rewards (which I think was a good idea), they should get to the next step and make crafting useful again.
I think your points are all valid and truly crafting as it stands is... eh ok. I do occassionally craft something and slot it. I still level crafting on every character, and I still buy every recipe that I can at each level... but only because I am committed to trying out the game's systems; 99% of those recipes go uncrafted.
No matter how balanced the system looks on the Excel spreadsheet, that's broken.
Crafting, as it stands today, lacks any "OMG Cool" moments. Creating stuff that is exactly the same as stuff you have to sell to clear inventory space is not interesting. Filling in the very rare gap with something that will be discarded come the next set of missions is not interesting.
Very simply every crafting list needs to have a few items and enhancements that make you happy to have picked that skill and leveled it. There should be items in the other skill lists that make you wish you had chosen that other skill... and that you'll be sure to take it on your next alt. I don't think those items exist currently and so, balanced as it may be... it doesn't work.
With the exception of bags and consumables, nothing I can craft at lvl 40 with 400 crafting skill is an improvement to the random drops and quest items I already had. Indeed, nothing I can craft at lvl 40 with 400 crafting skill is AS GOOD AS the random drops and quest items I already had. If I were able to customize my crafted items as it appears was originally intended, this would no longer be true. Since I cannot meaningfully customize the items I make though, crafting has served me no purpose other than to get bags and consumables. I can buy bags on the AH. That leaves the consumables, of which a tiny number are useful to me or have done anything but take up space in my bags (e.g. I'll throw a Lemurian golem at Necruil if I'm soloing him).
not the really awful ugly xtra large versions of stuff we already get at char gen or the crafting venders wear.. only way I can tell they are arround is cause my eyes recoil in horror at their hideous costumes.. seriously cthulu would be more attractive.
also waiting for all the cool enhancements to work and/or have omega/endgame level versions.
cool costumes alone would get me doing it.. but right now there's no useful crafting past the level 31 custom stuff... and no cool costume unlocks from the 3 greater whatever gear
though i do have to say the devices that summon 180 second pets are pretty sick sometimes...
Also, make the specializations MEAN something. From what I can tell, everyone has the exact same items/upgrades, just different names in each of the specializations. How about having some of those 3 stat upgrades be different stats, or each one has its own unique stat upgrade?
I REALLY hope that there is supposed to be more to crafting, because other than flavor and bags there is no reason to craft.
We have all received the "Working as Intended" post now so either just sit back and take it the way it is or leave.
Funny story: they are, and that's what all the crying is about.
Going through the first 5 or 6 pages of the forum(20 posts per page) and just looking at the titles, I came up with this list:
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=80735
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=81030
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=80672
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=79891
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=79284
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=77524
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=77829
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=71903
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=74911
Edit: +1
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=81177
These are all threads about how bad crafting is. Most of the rest of the posts are either informative posts by users, or people asking things like "I bought enhancements, why can't I find them on any item I want to craft?"...
If you read through the other threads, you will see more than this, of course...
I also took up Miiru's challenge.
I went through 7 or 8 of the most populace zones of MC and the LFG channel asking this question:
"Is there anyone here who likes the current iteration of the crafting system?"
I got a lot of people telling me no...
I got ONE person who said yes(had a conversation with him, which is why I didn't keep jumping zones and asking) and his reasoning was that the consumables are good, and he CHOSE HIS STATS TO MATCH HIS CRAFTING instead of choosing crafting so he can make the stats he wants, and that he knows the crafting is always there so he doesn't have to worry about the RNG dropping what he wants.
Now, to give credit where credit is due, AP has a post on the main page where he addresses the fact that with the current return of components for gear, the component costs seem to be too high, and they will be looking at the drop rate AND the component costs. It is something that people have been complaining about, and it is nice to see that it is being addressed... But I think the fact that out of all the people who check the items and crafting forum and almost 1000 people in game(could be less, not sure how many people from LFG were in the zones I checked... Call it 750 then...), I was only able to find 2 people who like the current crafting system... There is something definitely wrong.
CMagoun said it best, I think:
When I started this, I was really impressed with the system. Granted the fixed stat items were lackluster, but when you got to the custom stat items you had some of the "WOW" effect... It was exciting to be able to make gear with what you needed on it, and gear that was usable. I agree with the reasons behind the change, but while I agree with the ends, I have to disagree with the means... There is absolutely nothing here I can get excited about any more, and that is a shame.
I am not just complaining, I believe that if you aren't going to try and fix something you have no right to criticize it, so I proposed a solution in this thread http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=73311 which they can use to replace the existing customizable items(they can leave all of the rest of it as-is) and it would both fit in with their goal for crafting AND be exciting... I've also seen 3 or 4 other threads from people suggesting ways to improve the crafting. I really don't care if they take my idea or one of the other ideas or come up with something of their own... but for god's sake, do something!!! And at least acknowledge that the general concensus is that crafting is "substandard" right now and needs to be revamped.
Must have asked at the wrong time of day, I've seen several discussions on the LFG channel that were rational. (General opinion: yeah, brokenly overpowered, needed fixing quicker, at least it's gone now and we're back to the old marginally useful crafting system that we can ignore if we don't like crafting)
As for all the proposals, you can throw out all the ones which are either "I want to be stupidly overpowered" or "Completely gut the equipment system, removing all differentiation from it so that it's a waste of screen space to have more than one item". Those are not going to happen, and also account for the whole lot.
Wow... did you actually read any of them?
my suggestion(linked above) was to switch crafting to a points based system, where individual stats cost more if you stack them, so you get less total stats on the item if you don't diversify... gives exactly what they want(encourages diversity) while allowing people to really customize their gear with the stats that matter to them...
Looking just at the first page, I see this one here http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=80735
In this one, the guy is suggesting a fusion system, where you can take 2 enhancements, and fuse them, and get half the bonus of each one... With the possibility of critical success which would give you a little bit more than half... so on a critical success when fusing a 50 recovery and a 50 con, you could get 27 rec and 27 con, whereas on a non-crit it would give you 25 rec/25 con.
There are other suggestions, many of them, most of which are constructive, which allow people the ability to choose which stats matter to them. They are not looking for "I win" buttons, or to put 200 con on a primary defense... they don't want to change the total number of stat points(not that they would complain if it went up)... They just want the ability to choose what matters to them, and to really be excited about what they are doing.
As for "its a wast of screen space to have more than one item", if you look at the 3 specializations in each of the professions, the specializations within that profession are supposed to be the same... why is it different? because, like the ability to choose what stats matter, people want the ability to choose which upgrade fits their back-story... Even if they gave all 9 specializations the same gear, you would get people making ordnance for munitions, and inventions for power armor, and enchanted gear for sorcery, etc... I have not seen ANY proposals which suggest doing away with the distinctions between the professions, however... Could you provide some links to back up what you are saying?
A proposal to completely gut the item system, removing all differentiation between item types. See above re: not gonna happen.
Since I acknowledged right in that post that while I would like to see that, I doubt that that is the suggestion they would go with, and I note you did not make reference to any of the many other suggestion threads.
I also note you did not provide any supporting links, even though I requested them, nor did you address what I said.
If you can't be bothered to read it, please don't respond to it.
If you think I'm going to spend 20 minutes writing a detailed explanation of why you're wrong, you seriously overrate my interest in what you have to say.