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RPing Native Americans, an informal guide. Caution, wall of text.
Archived Post
Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
I apologize in advance for the wall of text. I'm trying to be as thorough but as succinct as possible.
I'd also like to point out that this is not about things you have to do. It's more these are little tips and tidbits you can cherry pick from to make your character feel more accurate and give him or her more depth at the same time.
I'm seeing a lot of Native American characters popping up with varying degrees of accuracy. I'm writing this up for all those who didn't grow up on a reservation but would like to RP a tribal properly.
I'm not trying to allow anyone to "exploit" our heritage. I'm also not giving enough detail to masquerade as one of us. This is just a general guide about how to roleplay with enough accuracy that they don't look stupid to someone who's actually from a tribe.
First, I'd like to start by saying that I'm actually "full blooded" Cherokee. The reason for the quotes is because it's only legally. There's no way in heck I'm actually full blooded. "Full blooded" is a myth. It just means you can't find non-Cherokee or non-Indian ancestors recent enough to be on the record. My hair's mostly jet black but I have a few red hairs to stand as a testament to this fact. Anyway, on to what I'm writing about.
For the most part, do whatever you like. Even call yourself "Indian" or "Injun" we call ourselves that, so it's not offensive. Drop the political correctness. We are very stoic and don't take offense very easily, you shouldn't either.
However, if you want to do it accurately:
The word for "hello" varies with each tribe. The stereotype of "how" is actually spelled "Hau". The word is Lakota/Sioux for "hello". If you're going with Cherokee, try using "Osiyo" instead of "Hau". I'm afraid I don't know how to say "Hello" in any other tribes. So if it matters, you may want to look it up.
There is no "peace pipe" there is only the "sacred pipe" which is smoked while making war plans and while making peace. The only herb accurately smoked in a sacred pipe is tobacco.
If you're going Cherokee, try to use the word "Tsalagi" to refer to your tribe. I often don't spell Cherokee like that on the internet because most people recognize "Cherokee" quicker. But using "Tsalagi" can help start a conversation, or make you sound more mysterious while also staying fairly true to an accurate character.
Do not pay attention to what you've heard on any video games (except Prey, that game actually got the Cherokee Tribe pretty accurate... Seeing as how they actually had a lot of actual Cherokees developing it) or movies. Most media gets it horribly horribly wrong.
Broken English is fine, but keep it to a minimum, people who aren't injuns in the real world might get offended for us. Out of some strange sense of civic duty, they take the blunt of persecution, whether or not the people they're defending actually feel hurt by it.
This one's big. There are no shamans. Not in North America. The word "Shaman" refers exclusively to a type of Buddhist. I'm not sure what exactly but I think it might be Tibetan Buddhism, but I'm not an expert on Buddhism. Simply put, don't do "Shaman" unless you're trying to peg yourself to actual Natives as a New Ager who doesn't know what they're talking about. That's all I'll say on this topic.
If you want to be a native magic user, there are far more accurate terms to use. The one of the most common ones is Medicine Man / Medicine Woman. Infact, in many cases, the word "Medicine" is useful far outside of actually healing. For instance, the word "medicine" can be used in place of "skill", "technique", or even "knowledge". For example "Can you teach me the ways of Indian tracking?" "Yes, I will teach you this medicine."
Turquoise. Don't forget this stone. It's VERY important and frequently overlooked. This stone is about as Native American as corn and buckskins.
Favorite Food: Fry Bread. It's a stereotype but it works and is accurate. Those from the US Armed Services probably know what I'm talking about here. Almost every regiment has at least one Indian who makes fry bread.
Another favorite food: Maize. This is basically corn. Many non-english speakers will refer to corn as such, but the word comes from the Native Americans. Use it if you care about being "traditional".
Eagle feathers are the mark of a warrior and ONLY a warrior. Wear them gratuitously if you're a warrior. If you're a medicine type, you may want to think twice, but it should be fine.
If you're playing a more modern representation of a native warrior, then you're probably ex-US or ex-Canadian Military. The tribes don't wage war anymore, so the warriors sign up for duty in the appropriate military. Some traditionalists look upon this as a necessary evil. We do not fight wars anymore, so to be a true warrior, you often must fight the White Man's wars.
Cherokee warriors are from the "Aniwaya" or "Wolf" clan. You may have heard the word "Aniwaya" used in the video game "Prey". They used it to refer to actual howling wolves. However Aniwaya roughly means "Wolf People" with "Waya" being the "Wolf". In addition to being warriors, the Wolf Clan is also the only clan traditionally allowed to work with wolves, be it hunting or raising them. So for a concept character, the summoning of wolves from Supernatural may be a pretty cool power to take.
There are six other clans in the Cherokee tribe, but the Aniwaya are the largest, most common. If anyone wants to try to roleplay any of the others, I suggest Google or messaging me privately for more info.
If your character is traditional warrior rather than modern warrior, paint your face if you have the ability.
Mohawks do not wear the mohawk hairstyle. The Mohawk hairstyle is actually the warrior hair style of a Mandinka Warrior. The Mandika tribe is from Africa, not North America. I have no idea where this confusion started.
Stereotypical names popularized by the movie "Dances With Wolves" are not necessary. Sure, go ahead and do them, but remember that most modern native americans have plain, "white" sounding names. I can't say what my name is, but an example might be... Chuck Norris. He's Cherokee believe it or not. Then there's "Pauline Johnson" who was an author from the Mohawk tribe. Quentin Tarantino, also Cherokee. You'll find a lot of plain names like Johnson, Mathews/Mathis. Blackwolf is an older name that you may occasionall find still in use.
Cherokees in particular have some pretty weird last names floating about. Roastingears, Peacheater, Drywaters. There's even a last name of "Mankiller" which is historically actually a Cherokee military title.
Cherokees of note that you might claim to be descended from are Chief Yonaguska (Drowning Bear), Going Snake, or Sequoia (yes, as in the red wood tree, it was named after him actually). None of these are good for heroes with a chip on their shoulder. While Yonaguska was a fierce warrior, he was also a peaceful man who didn't hold grudges. Infact, Cherokees do NOT hold grudges. Traditionally, we have a folkloric taboo about it. Basically, you're a new person every time you wake up, so there's no sense in grudges.
Geronimo was Apache and said to walk without leaving tracks (great for stealth) as well having abilities that these days would be refered to as psychic powers. Pyrokinesis, telekinesis, telepathy, etc. Not good for a hero with a chip on his shoulder as he died of old age while also trying to convert his tribe to Christianity. If anything, he's good for someone who wants history but also wants to be completely at peace with the US Government.
Crazy Horse was Lakota. He's responsible for the death of Colonel Custer (posthumously promoted from Colonel to General) ala "Custer's Last Stand". He's a good one for a hero with a chip on his shoulder.
Chief Black Kettle of the Cheyenne Tribe is a good one for vengence, simply because he and his whole village were slaughtered at the Sand Creek Massacre.
Not all tribes traditionally follow a "Great Spirit". This shouldn't really surprise anyone, there's a LOT of tribes. There are other deities and god like figures such as Coyote. Coyote is a VERY common one, many tribes revere Coyote. Coyote is basically a trickster, but NOT an evil one. He's directly involved in many creation myths as the actual creative force. As a side note. There was an actual Native American who had a character named Coyote on City of Heroes. He died in the real world roughly around the time the game came out. I forget if it was just before or after launch. Anyway, a 100% accurate recreation of his character replaced the Police Chief in the Hero tutorial zone to give out the final tutorial mission.
It's probably also worth noting that many tribes people have a good sense of humor. If you've ever seen Maverick, the Indian character "Joseph" is a good example. Some of us will actually ham it up with stereotypes like he did to make people laugh or keep them on their toes.
If anyone's particularly interested in digging into Cherokee folklore for more depth for a Cherokee character, please message me privately. I can direct you to some resources to search for inspiration.
I'd also like to point out that this is not about things you have to do. It's more these are little tips and tidbits you can cherry pick from to make your character feel more accurate and give him or her more depth at the same time.
I'm seeing a lot of Native American characters popping up with varying degrees of accuracy. I'm writing this up for all those who didn't grow up on a reservation but would like to RP a tribal properly.
I'm not trying to allow anyone to "exploit" our heritage. I'm also not giving enough detail to masquerade as one of us. This is just a general guide about how to roleplay with enough accuracy that they don't look stupid to someone who's actually from a tribe.
First, I'd like to start by saying that I'm actually "full blooded" Cherokee. The reason for the quotes is because it's only legally. There's no way in heck I'm actually full blooded. "Full blooded" is a myth. It just means you can't find non-Cherokee or non-Indian ancestors recent enough to be on the record. My hair's mostly jet black but I have a few red hairs to stand as a testament to this fact. Anyway, on to what I'm writing about.
For the most part, do whatever you like. Even call yourself "Indian" or "Injun" we call ourselves that, so it's not offensive. Drop the political correctness. We are very stoic and don't take offense very easily, you shouldn't either.
However, if you want to do it accurately:
The word for "hello" varies with each tribe. The stereotype of "how" is actually spelled "Hau". The word is Lakota/Sioux for "hello". If you're going with Cherokee, try using "Osiyo" instead of "Hau". I'm afraid I don't know how to say "Hello" in any other tribes. So if it matters, you may want to look it up.
There is no "peace pipe" there is only the "sacred pipe" which is smoked while making war plans and while making peace. The only herb accurately smoked in a sacred pipe is tobacco.
If you're going Cherokee, try to use the word "Tsalagi" to refer to your tribe. I often don't spell Cherokee like that on the internet because most people recognize "Cherokee" quicker. But using "Tsalagi" can help start a conversation, or make you sound more mysterious while also staying fairly true to an accurate character.
Do not pay attention to what you've heard on any video games (except Prey, that game actually got the Cherokee Tribe pretty accurate... Seeing as how they actually had a lot of actual Cherokees developing it) or movies. Most media gets it horribly horribly wrong.
Broken English is fine, but keep it to a minimum, people who aren't injuns in the real world might get offended for us. Out of some strange sense of civic duty, they take the blunt of persecution, whether or not the people they're defending actually feel hurt by it.
This one's big. There are no shamans. Not in North America. The word "Shaman" refers exclusively to a type of Buddhist. I'm not sure what exactly but I think it might be Tibetan Buddhism, but I'm not an expert on Buddhism. Simply put, don't do "Shaman" unless you're trying to peg yourself to actual Natives as a New Ager who doesn't know what they're talking about. That's all I'll say on this topic.
If you want to be a native magic user, there are far more accurate terms to use. The one of the most common ones is Medicine Man / Medicine Woman. Infact, in many cases, the word "Medicine" is useful far outside of actually healing. For instance, the word "medicine" can be used in place of "skill", "technique", or even "knowledge". For example "Can you teach me the ways of Indian tracking?" "Yes, I will teach you this medicine."
Turquoise. Don't forget this stone. It's VERY important and frequently overlooked. This stone is about as Native American as corn and buckskins.
Favorite Food: Fry Bread. It's a stereotype but it works and is accurate. Those from the US Armed Services probably know what I'm talking about here. Almost every regiment has at least one Indian who makes fry bread.
Another favorite food: Maize. This is basically corn. Many non-english speakers will refer to corn as such, but the word comes from the Native Americans. Use it if you care about being "traditional".
Eagle feathers are the mark of a warrior and ONLY a warrior. Wear them gratuitously if you're a warrior. If you're a medicine type, you may want to think twice, but it should be fine.
If you're playing a more modern representation of a native warrior, then you're probably ex-US or ex-Canadian Military. The tribes don't wage war anymore, so the warriors sign up for duty in the appropriate military. Some traditionalists look upon this as a necessary evil. We do not fight wars anymore, so to be a true warrior, you often must fight the White Man's wars.
Cherokee warriors are from the "Aniwaya" or "Wolf" clan. You may have heard the word "Aniwaya" used in the video game "Prey". They used it to refer to actual howling wolves. However Aniwaya roughly means "Wolf People" with "Waya" being the "Wolf". In addition to being warriors, the Wolf Clan is also the only clan traditionally allowed to work with wolves, be it hunting or raising them. So for a concept character, the summoning of wolves from Supernatural may be a pretty cool power to take.
There are six other clans in the Cherokee tribe, but the Aniwaya are the largest, most common. If anyone wants to try to roleplay any of the others, I suggest Google or messaging me privately for more info.
If your character is traditional warrior rather than modern warrior, paint your face if you have the ability.
Mohawks do not wear the mohawk hairstyle. The Mohawk hairstyle is actually the warrior hair style of a Mandinka Warrior. The Mandika tribe is from Africa, not North America. I have no idea where this confusion started.
Stereotypical names popularized by the movie "Dances With Wolves" are not necessary. Sure, go ahead and do them, but remember that most modern native americans have plain, "white" sounding names. I can't say what my name is, but an example might be... Chuck Norris. He's Cherokee believe it or not. Then there's "Pauline Johnson" who was an author from the Mohawk tribe. Quentin Tarantino, also Cherokee. You'll find a lot of plain names like Johnson, Mathews/Mathis. Blackwolf is an older name that you may occasionall find still in use.
Cherokees in particular have some pretty weird last names floating about. Roastingears, Peacheater, Drywaters. There's even a last name of "Mankiller" which is historically actually a Cherokee military title.
Cherokees of note that you might claim to be descended from are Chief Yonaguska (Drowning Bear), Going Snake, or Sequoia (yes, as in the red wood tree, it was named after him actually). None of these are good for heroes with a chip on their shoulder. While Yonaguska was a fierce warrior, he was also a peaceful man who didn't hold grudges. Infact, Cherokees do NOT hold grudges. Traditionally, we have a folkloric taboo about it. Basically, you're a new person every time you wake up, so there's no sense in grudges.
Geronimo was Apache and said to walk without leaving tracks (great for stealth) as well having abilities that these days would be refered to as psychic powers. Pyrokinesis, telekinesis, telepathy, etc. Not good for a hero with a chip on his shoulder as he died of old age while also trying to convert his tribe to Christianity. If anything, he's good for someone who wants history but also wants to be completely at peace with the US Government.
Crazy Horse was Lakota. He's responsible for the death of Colonel Custer (posthumously promoted from Colonel to General) ala "Custer's Last Stand". He's a good one for a hero with a chip on his shoulder.
Chief Black Kettle of the Cheyenne Tribe is a good one for vengence, simply because he and his whole village were slaughtered at the Sand Creek Massacre.
Not all tribes traditionally follow a "Great Spirit". This shouldn't really surprise anyone, there's a LOT of tribes. There are other deities and god like figures such as Coyote. Coyote is a VERY common one, many tribes revere Coyote. Coyote is basically a trickster, but NOT an evil one. He's directly involved in many creation myths as the actual creative force. As a side note. There was an actual Native American who had a character named Coyote on City of Heroes. He died in the real world roughly around the time the game came out. I forget if it was just before or after launch. Anyway, a 100% accurate recreation of his character replaced the Police Chief in the Hero tutorial zone to give out the final tutorial mission.
It's probably also worth noting that many tribes people have a good sense of humor. If you've ever seen Maverick, the Indian character "Joseph" is a good example. Some of us will actually ham it up with stereotypes like he did to make people laugh or keep them on their toes.
If anyone's particularly interested in digging into Cherokee folklore for more depth for a Cherokee character, please message me privately. I can direct you to some resources to search for inspiration.
Post edited by Archived Post on
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That's how you do it.
Anyway, good food for the brain. Now if only it were that easy to dispel the Asian stuff. >_>
Ravenspeaker isn't exactly accurate. He wears funny clothes and puts up giant dream catchers on sticks in places other than childrens bedrooms. Seriously, a dreamcatcher really should be in a child's bedroom or over a child's bed. Not stuck on a pole and slapped in the middle of the Canadian wilderness. So yeah, that's not how you do it.
Or windows.
Yeah, I suppose. That's where the bad dreams come in from. Still, my point is that they're an item representing childhood innocence and Ravenspeaker just seems to go out of his way to use them inappropriately.
And thank you everyone for the compliments. I tried to make it as friendly on the eyes as I could while also keeping it as in-depth as I could.
Yeah but I can see why they did it, hollywood gives people the wrong idea. I've lost count of the number of movies I've seen with dream catchers out in the trees everywhere! And each time I can't help but feel annoyed
Kudos to the OP for taking an unusual and interesting stand.
First off we're talking strictly about the USA before it was the USA but if you want to consider the whole continent you have vastly different cultures to study. Inuit down to Aztec and all they conquered. Hugely different social structures and further still much different ideas of culture, spirit/magic/medicine, so respect them all.
To correct the op, not to be a *****, Shaman actually came from Siberia and the native tribal peoples of that area.
And here's the white man "injun" story. Part of my family's line lost three brothers to a specific tribe (Mohawk) in the Iroquois (which is BTW an insulting/*******ized name given by the French) nation. They kidnapped them from the family farm when they were in the fields. The youngest died, everyone in the locality was ready for blood. BUT get this- the two older brothers continued their lives in the tribe as slaves at first but slaves were treated more like Greek slaves with rights and respect. Eventually they gained enough respect one of the brothers became a respected free elder and the other........ a white Chief. Yeah. While racism amongst whites and natives in some areas still runs rampant today, they didn't give a crap what color he was, he was a leader and he married a native woman and forgot all his white heritage. The father eventually found them both and offered up a trade for his sons. Both of them declined. They had a new family.
Continuing in that line the name Skywalker of George Lukas fame came from Iroquois construction workers who migrated to New York during the industrial revolution. They assisted in building some of the tallest structures in the world at the time and took the name because they worked completely without safety harnesses and yet no harm became of them. Their skill earned them great respect amongst their white counterparts.
Eye opener for me at least.
And I should be surprised how? William Holland Thomas was completely white and was the Principal Chief of the Cherokee Tribe for a while. He was *elected* as the Chief. There's a pretty story behind it, but this isn't the place for it.
As for racism existing today. What I find most interesting is the amount of racism someone thinks exists toward the North American tribes is inversely proportional to the proximity to areas where the two cultures come into contact with eachother. Truely interesting. There's far less racism today than their used to be.
My aim in making my original post wasn't to set people straight so much as to assist those wanting to add some authentic flavor to their NA characters, and to help provide inspiration.
There is tons to read/study and not honestly just to preserve the history, seriously for me just because it's interesting. This continent has some very enlightened and very barbaric native history to be known.
Excuse me for hijacking the post and misdirecting.
Second favorite line- "The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does it's smartest termite."
I loved that movie. The anti-superhero movie. I'm a DC fan anyway. They did alright by that comic.
De-hijack me with a boot in the head.
If you're going for accuracy, I suggest looking into the nrothwest tribes, specifically the Ojibwe tribe around British Columbia / Washington State. They're the origin of totem poles. If you're thinking of any other meaning of "totem" then I'm not sure.
Re-read my sig a bit more closely. I'm not saying "locked" I'm saying "logged". It's a play on words. Like logged in to the game, not locked into a prison. :P
I should you be scared you'd see my low level in PVP and throw " deadly burning oil" on me!
Deadly Burning Oil:
Melee burning damage/DOT/Root
400-1000 damage, 1000-5000 over 4 seconds, rooted until dead :eek:
I was going for accuracy, but from what I found, totem poles were more heraldic in nature, rather than the animal spirit guide totems I was looking for. I'll have to look for another culture then.
Yeah, sorry, there's no "spirit guide" stuff in the North American tribes. That's all a bunch of hogwash created by new agers who want to incoporate all the religions they can. When they tried to incorporate the native cultures, they found there was a lot of secrecy surrounding the religious beliefs (partly caused by many years of those who followed the Old Ways of being persecuted by outsiders for following them). So, the New-Agers made stuff up. Heck, my great uncle is still locked up for it until 2013. Back in 1963, he got 40 years simply for professing to follow the Old Ways.
It wasn't until the last 20 years or so that any of it started actually started becoming publicly availible. And by that time, there was already so much "low magic" fiction that it was unsalvagable. Even then, the fiction existed in stories even prior to the revival. Just, for the most part those stories weren't very common and tended to be pretty archaic.
Also, well... It's one thing when someone goes "Oh, I'm a witch" because that term is pretty generic really. It's another entirely when someone goes "Oh, I'm a Wiccan". Even the term "Druid" tends to be pretty generic. In order to really go into offensive territory with Druids, you kind of have to be more specific "Oh, I'm an Ovate from the OBOD." And at that point, you've pretty much crossed the line from ignorant to well researched anyway.
What I'm trying to say here is "Generic Indigenous Tribe" is fine. Heck, you could go with Lisa Simpson and go "Hitachi Tribe" and make stuff up because it's a non-existant tribe. It's the moment you get more specific than "Generic Tribe" or "Generic Witch" that really warrants one going "You're doing it wrong!"
By the way, "witch" has... different meanings for the Cherokee tribe. Simply speaking ill of someone can be considered witchcraft. That's why you rarely see me do it. If I have, I've slipped up and I apologise. But I try to live by the Old Ways as much as I can and not speak ill of anyone or to anyone.
Very solid point there.
And you're right in all regards, as you said, when it's an obvious "I'm just making this up as I go" it's a lot easier to just enjoy the story.. But when someone does just enough research to use a few real terms, without actually having enough research to use the terms properly that's when it becomes an offense to people that actually are part of that culture.
Incidentally, is there anything you could share with me, or any place you could point me (be it online or a book or what-have-you) where I could research the Comanche? I have a character who I've always RPed as having ties to them, but never actually used any real knowledge or brought it up because I didn't want to do something without knowing what I was talking about.
Well, there's a recently published book that should still be in print. The Comanche Empire published by Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-12654-9 It has a lot of accurate well researched information.
This much I can say right off hand. They're one of the tribes that formed the "Native American Church". The so called "Peyote Church". Although, the game explicitly forbids drug references. Yhe 1970s brought about freedom for the tribes to practice their old ways with illicit substances. Provided, of course, that it actually is legitimately a part of their religion. I wouldn't recommend expounding upon that aspect of the character, though. Besides, that starts treading in sacred territory and we want to avoid that. You know what happens when you build houses on sacred indian ground right? Yeah ... that ... So try to stay away from sacred stuff.
If you want to use Comanche colors, their flag is red, yellow and blue. Also,they're quite commonly from Oklahoma these days. And again, if it's a modern warrior you're going for, former US Military can work as good flavor material.
But, above all, remember, the Comanche are just like everyone else. They're people with concepts of right and wrong. Like most other religions, theirs is one that teaches love and peace. Revenge is not really the Comanche way. Or the way of any other modern North American tribe. So try to keep free of that or at least treat that fact with respect.
I have to hijack again- this was and is what I love about the native cultures. I have to relate this to Aristotle and Virtue Ethics. The invaders did not practice this ancient European teacher's ways, which can be said to be likened to or possibly indirectly influenced Christ's teachings [oh such blasphemy
The revival of Nicomachean Ethics should be a central focus of America's European youth, the people on the boats have heritage in it AND you don't have to have religion to follow it. It's relatively universal and can be compared to NA ethics from what I understand.
It's unfortunate but great teachers tend to be remembered but not heard. It's honorable you attempt to follow the old ways as much as possible and I commend you for it. And your Great Uncle, such injustice, a brave man, a virtuous man that did not lie under threat. Only great people can do things like that, of any culture.
Wha? What happened to freedom of speech? Honestly he could come to Britain profess all the old ways he wanted, plant a flag to claim Britain and have people come up to him and shake his hand and ask if he wants a drink...what old ways can be so bad? He would have to be trying to incite hate, cause unrest, seem like a really bad terrorist to achieve 40 years and even then he'd be out in 20 or less for good behaviour.
1963+40 means he should be out by now also.
Each and every invader had a different personality, up bringing and education.
I have yet to visit America, but when I do, I want to see Native American History more than anything else. I might make it there in 2011 if I am realistic.
Of course each human being is his own human being, yet the objectivist perspective has very strong arguments- that morality is generally similar amongst all humans, including cultures that choose to ignore it. All European invaders had the legacy of the Greeks and later some of the great German philosophers, whether they knew it or not I can almost guarantee it was subtlety hidden in most of their education. Lets also not forget those who made the worst decisions most likely had the highest levels of power and education- the worst offenders.
And quiet frankly in the objectivist perspective ignorance is really not a valid excuse. When you gun down a child most any mentally normal human being knows it's wrong- the NA's suffered tons of civilian casualties to disease and blatant genocide. I can't excuse the less educated for following orders to kill innocents- the OP's Great Uncle didn't follow the orders of his persecutors and deny his heritage I'm sure. He had more reason to be un-virtuous and save his own hide and that of his family's, yet the American soldiers were just following orders. I could go so far as to compare it to the Nazi soldiers- sure they didn't know the whole picture but you can't prove that all of them were free of a guilty conscious either.
Finally I'm not pointing the finger at those on the other side of the pond, the invaders were Americans for most of the genocide, but they still carry the European heritage of Aristotle and other great thinkers. If you want to take it that far the Irish were treated horrifically both by those who drove them to America and those that received them here. They used to be a native clan based people before the Romans absorbed their culture. I say English carry the legacy of the Romans simply because they do, they are locally half bred with invading Romans disregarding their culture, the French and the Germanic tribes suffered as well.
If I wanted to I could go back and blame a lot on the Romans actually but that's way outside the OPs original purpose......... I mean Paul thought Nero was the Antichrist! I'm not pointing the finger at Italians either BTW. This is simply a matter of not following the Laws of Nature and humanity- an objectivist idea that has very strong evidence to support it.
I do realize that europeans and possibly africans brought with them diseases that amount to most of the deaths of the native americans. For centuries the Americans were kept locked away from all the diseases the eastern continents had suffered and had countless deaths with, then in our coming over our race brought some of it, unknowingly, upon them, and of which they lacked the level of immunity we had achieved. What was just a sneeze to us was probably a major thing. Mixing whites and indians etc was not really a bad thing as then the children have slightly better levels of immunity I'd imagine, plus all mankind will share the same fate anyway just as we do share the same origin. The loss of some heritage and way of life is something every culture has experienced too, sometimes it is the next generation willingly calling it a day on their own heritage or their parents beliefs. The loss of paganism tidies things up for the rest of the world, opened doors for our modern way of life within which humanitarianism hopefully will succeed. People like Moses, Jesus and Mohammed did a great job in helping to clean up the mess that was paganism - history could of turned out worse.
The problem with Ireland was the fact that they had landlords who lived in Britain, who didn't see what was going on and had paid unscrupulous men acting on behalf of their interests. I am half Irish, half English, reading about it all tells me that really you should never have landlords living in another country all year around, year on year. They're either not really getting the proper picture about what was going on in Ireland or not brought to justice.
"Historian Cormac
sorry, I typoed, it was 1973... and I haven't been able keep tabs on him... last I checked he *was* still locked up but that was a long time ago.
As for move to Britain? Same reason I refuse to laeve the Blue Ridge. It'll be a cold day in Hell before I allow myself to be pressured out of my ancestoral homeland.
As for ask if he wants a drink... um... yeah... again you're being culturally insensitive, there are multiple reasons that's insensitive. For starters, to offer us food or drink implies that we cannot care for ourselves. Then, there's the matter of the whole "firewater" thing. There are ... reasons ... stereotypes really. Stereotypes are stereotypes, yes, but they don't get formed arbitrarily. Let's just put it this way, the majority of my family are alcoholics. Whether that's due to genetics or just a life that's harsher than their ability to cope without drinking is another story for another time. I'm not here to air my familial laundry. I'm here to extend a welcoming hand to those who want to learn more and possibly roleplay.
To the others who brought up the diseases:
I thank the settlers for bringing the diseases they brought. Do you have any idea how hard it is for me to catch the flu, let alone the cold? The sickest I've personally ever been was chicken pox. That had me down about as much as a bad flu is for most people. My husband, also Cherokee, is the same way. He finds it difficult to actually be affected by any of the common communicable diseases. Infact, most Cherokees I know don't really know what it's like to be very sick. So yes, it may sound weird, but I thank them. If they hadn't, the gene pool would have been different. I wouldn't have been born. And even if I had, my genes wouldn't have provided the natural resistances that they do.
That would be nice. I agree, it would be great. But, unfortunately, it's not likely to happen. Something similar already happened at the Chicago World's Fair (aka The World's Columbian Exposition) ... and that didn't turn out too well. Basically, there was this perception that "this is how they lived and continue to live, refusing to change." With lots of gawking at the "poor savages". Maybe things will be different, but that's what happened at the Chicago World's Fair
Aristotle even in his day tutored Alexander the Great, then Alexander took Aristotle's ethical philosophy and decided it meant he could conquer the world and make everyone be morally correct. Aristotle disagreed with him and had to flee back to Athens I believe. Most people don't make these decisions and the ones that do I firmly believe do it knowing they are wronging others, they just ignore it. Socrates though would argue they are destroying their own souls by ignoring what every human innately knows from birth or before- right and wrong.
I firmly take this stance and believe most human beings know it, I only make exception for the extremely insane and those that suffer from severe illness that destroys the brain. All others, ALL have no excuses and no God, nor other deity, nor spirit of nature will pardon you when you continue to hurt others knowingly. This is my stance and I don't flee from it.
I think when Captain Cook claimed Australia he had no intention of staying there, he died in Hawaii.
It's not being culturally insensitive, it is respecting a man's intelligence. I was speaking in modern day terms. To think that a man would come here to the UK and not expect cultural differences and so be offended would be wrong. He by coming to us, it would be expected of him to be more ready to have to understand us more than we would him. I wouldn't go to France and smack a French man on his nose for trying to kiss me on the cheek but if he came to the UK he might want to think twice about it XD. It is he whom I would expect to have to be a bit more flexible. When in Rome do as the Romans do.
Nope, nothing to do with alcoholism, it's a sit down and drink, it could be tea, we are known for tea us English.
If you look at the countries that came to the Americas, I would put money on it that really, the British and the French were a type of evil if you like but easily imo the lesser sort. It could of been worse. I'd of rather had them than some others I could think of. Look at Canada, it's sweet with a great future ahead of it. Asia and Europe had the Black Death, your lucky you missed that! Ya know, old viking ships had been found I think in the Newfoundland area, already europeans had integrated, or disappeared, most likely integrated, same as with the first group at Roanoke probably.
Aww :*( Some people have no class. I'd want to see it and even take part in it as it's some kind of adventure. There are places in the UK where you can go back in time, wear the type of clothes of the era and experience the type of life. Some of it is more upsetting than anything for some who people can't handle it I must admit. But the great outdoors, scouting type of stuff, horse riding, making the clothes, cowboys versus indian paintballing, sleeping under the stars etc would be great.
I am not arguing with anyone, I am very interested in what you guys think and you both strike me as very intelligent. I am prepared to be wrong and history is not my strongpoint even though I am interested.
I think going by the looks of things, the colonists were very anti europe. Britain had a huge empire to maintain and only so much resourcefulness
I like that stance and I agree with you. I am not convinced the US government does, sometimes change comes with some sacrifice, sometimes you commit a certain amount of wrong for the greater good (I think that is generally what America is prepared to do). For me it is okay when one can see that there is an ongoing inhumanity, a corrupt power exploiting the weak, being that we are all equal it is fair to suggest that some people do need saving, even from themselves, is it moral to turn a blind eye on people and/or wait for trouble to eventually come to you?
I do see as people do wonder why it is certain countries (with oil for example) are generally, subjectively, in theory saved first. I think that is because in order to save the most you have to be able to maintain optimum levels of resources. I hope the entire human world could come to some arrangement based on what we should know from birth, before resources run out.
Ok right on. You are correct imho. America happens to run most of it's policy on whats called utilitarianism, or simply "the ends justify the means". It's an attractive philosophy honestly if you take the more conservative utilitarian approach and consider the greatest good for the greatest number of people. But alas it fails. It failed the NA's and it's failing everyone in the world right now quiet frankly. This model our government presents is defunct. Reason and logic can see it to it's end- resources run dry and eventual anarchy. AND the most deplorable thing is the Northern NA's have understood the respect for nature for perhaps tens of thousands of years. I mean wow, if you ever come to the US and see places like the Dakotas and Montana then contrast that with California, you can see CA was once a paradise, now it's dam near one huge city all along the 5 corridor from San Diego to Sacramento.
I've told my parents, and I might get flamed severely for this, the "American Dream" exists, just not in America anymore.
And to the OP Metallurgist- the US government should follow the Australian's example, apologize severely to the native people and give all the national parks to them. They deserve far more than that, but it'd be a dam good start. Imagine Oregon giving it's whole coast back to NAs and most of the rivers there as well. The NAs would let people visit of course but you'd be inspected upon arrival and taught how to leave no environmental footprint. It won't happen though, we all know the US Government holds these areas just the same as resources, in fact I'm sure some resources are on them as is the case in most of Nevada- the government land used to be run free by the Mustang, now oil fields, natural gas, mines, ranchers, are all eliminating the room they were given. THEY WERE GIVEN THAT ROOM BY THE GOVERNMENT TOO! Also a side note- they say the modern horse came with the Spanish and it was the first the NAs ever saw of it, but they have evidence a modern horse did exist in North America which gives the animals a right to exist here wild. Government doesn't care though, no money it a hardy horse anymore.
Ahhh! The Mustang! A misunderstood and much aligned horse of history. If only the average person knew of its blood heritage, the Spanish Jennet of which the Jennet has its own illustrious bloodline. Anywhoo! I could go on all day about that but MBFT has a valid point; in the end, its all about money and/or resources. Heck! There's still an agreement between Canada and the US which allows either to buy land with resources for a buck an acre.
Oh! As to this, "they say the modern horse came with the Spanish and it was the first the NAs ever saw of it, but they have evidence a modern horse did exist in North America." Those are thoughts from some, "behind the times historians, archeologists and such. Most modern, serious horse breeders and historians acknowledge said situation differently.
I would like a direction pointer to said information about this horse, MBFT. I'd really appreciate if you could.
Well! That's my two cents, minus GST of course. hehe But this whole thread has been an interesting and informative read. Thanks oodles!
I agree. The thing is, you have to remember that not all good gestures will be interpreted the same way by all cultures. Just as an example, in Bulgaria, they shake their head to mean "no" and they nod to mean "yes". This is most likely the complete opposite of what you mean.
In America, "come, have a drink" refers specifically to alcohol. Literally speaking, it shouldn't, but culturally it does. Remember, in the US, you have "Drink" and "Soft Drink". Soft Drink means "non-alcoholic". Tea is considered a "soft drink". When you're dealing with a culture that has a hateful stereotype applied to it, it can get a little touchy.
Another example of how something innocuous might be considered an insult or hateful act, someone might hang a dummy from a tree to insinuate suicide as a Halloween decoration without any hate in their heart. However, some people may see it as being racist against blacks because of the history of lynching mobs.
Don't get me wrong, most of "Amerindians" are insanely difficult to actually offend. There are some, however, who have a chip on their shoulder and are looking for a reason to hate anyone who they view as an outsider.
And again, I'm not leaving the Blue Ridge. I have zero intention of doing so. It's a matter of pride. I'm Eastern Band. We never left our ancestoral land despite the Indian Removal Act. And *nothing* is going to force me out. If I leave, it'll be as a matter of choice, not a matter of avoiding persecution.
I've checked up on my uncle, he's actually dead apparently. Going to have to make a road trip to visit the grave in Louisiana next year.
Bringing the OP's suggestions back to the front page a bit longer, no offense but most of the rest can be ignored- good read if you want authenticity.
Do you RP?
Aww, come on Mr. Grumpeh! I'm curious. xD Do you RP?
I'm not Mr, I'm Ms. And yes, I do, but not intensely. Also, just because I don't answer right away doesn't mean I'm not going to, it just means I haven't seen it yet
It's sarcasm, lol. I just want to show you how much I wub you.
Edit: Ms? That's a lie. As far as I know, you're a-- We have to stop these signal waves, they're driving the Qularr Insane!!