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AntiProton - Are Certain Stat combinations discouraged

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    1) I have to admit I DISlike the fact that my 'demon' may need to learn science to get decent stats. Personally I would MUCH rather have seen the system (or it be revamp) to the 'sspecialty' determine what stat bonuses are paired.

    Example: Mystic Crafter:
    - Avatar: STR/CON weak PRE/INT
    - Enchanting: PRE/INT weak STR/REC
    - Spells: Recover/DEX weak STR/PRE

    (break down pure examples). But ANY stat combination could be done with Mystic.... the specialty determiend what stats you got.

    2) I really really support and am in favor fof any crafter should be able to make any stat. My idael solution:

    Pre-set items (no customization) get counted as level * 1.1 so they get a slight 'bonus'
    'Customized' items: Specialty 'focus' gets 1.0 points. (so slightly less then 'pre-defiend' but comparable to current. 'Normal' stats (focus nro 'weak' area) count at 0.8, 'Weak' stats for seciality count as 0.5

    That encourages diversfication. but does allow for a crafter to sacrifce points if they really really need one or two more points of X. Sure that geeky science boy, might not be good a PRE, but if he really need a points insteaf of +20 INT to his pocket protector of genusius, he could manage to put a funy little lizard on it and get +10 PRE instead. pretty significant 'loss' from a pure numbers sides, but those 10 PRE might be worth more then 20 INT. A 'maxed' build would likely put atleast a 'normal' stat on the item and not a weak for overal 'more points', but in spirit of Champions (PnP) building YOUR toon, really should be the goal, even if it is not the 'most powerful'.

    Personally I would love something even closer to the game (PnP), where it doesnt matter if I call it sonic arrow, fireball, 'Cat Meow of Anger', or 'B'zlug Burt' it has the effect of Ranged, Damage, Small Area effect, chance to stun. (now this I know is way to late in game to really achieve but was my hopes from day one when they said based off the PnP). I can understand the problems and don't mind the system as is, but please at least continue to allow us to 'gear' with thing appropriate to our concept. (or remove things like BIO pages, back ground completely).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Antiproton wrote:
    Yup, but that is going away when Balseraph does the work to shift from the hard caps to soft caps. We're just waiting on some tech. Basically you should always be gaining a benefit from adding another point of a stat, so for example not having an amount of dex you have to acquire before it starts benefiting your crit chance.

    I hope that works as you suggest and it goes in soon. As it stands some stats feel worthless like dex if its not a super stat or int if its not a super stat. Pre is useless for many frameworks also. I don't have a single framework that gets any benefit from pre.

    Str- decent only for melee and useless for anything else, doesn't really do jack for resists for knockbacks or holds far as I can tell. My str toon still gets chain rooted, KB and the works.

    Dex - Useless without being a superstat as to much dex needed before has any reasonable effect

    Con - HP, can always use more hp

    Pre - Useless for most, when was threat generation much of a problem in a solo game and even if group we have shields, no biggie.

    Int- Useless w/o being a super stat as needs to much to do jack

    End- Can always use a bigger energy pool

    Rec- Can always use faster energy regen and bigger equilibrium.


    So besides a few powers that benefit specifically from one of those crap stats theres no point. And some of the good ones aen't unless super stated.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Burnhell wrote:
    ...list of statistics and usefulness...

    I think we have a few problems here, and in some cases I don't know if the culprit is the tool tip or the function itself. For example in most cases I'd agree with your notes on PRE, but it also (at least supposedly) increases general healing numbers, and pet health too. Both END and REC add to energy from EBuilder attacks, etc. This is only noted though in the odd place like on the pdf manual link or whathave. *shrug*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Antiproton wrote:
    Yup, but that is going away when Balseraph does the work to shift from the hard caps to soft caps. We're just waiting on some tech. Basically you should always be gaining a benefit from adding another point of a stat, so for example not having an amount of dex you have to acquire before it starts benefiting your crit chance.

    When this tweak happens, will it be done with the same gentle touch that has shown up in patches so far? For example, not too far down the road, is the day coming when the current system is tweaked ever so slightly so the max you can get to is 20% chance to crit (from dex) and 40% crit effectiveness (from ego) in damage, but no higher? Something along those lines, to bring stats under the same fun usefulness as other parts of the game, like crafting?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Cambios wrote:
    Custom crafting should mean you can add any of the various stats/enhancements to the item you want. That's custom.

    Being forced to make item with crap stats you don't want on them is the antithesis of custom.[

    If I don't want INT or PRE, I shouldn't have them randomly racked onto items as the only way to get the stuff I ACTUALLY want.

    You can! As long as they match the type of item and crafting school. If you want to be faster, you upgrade your running shoes, not your umberella.

    Don't want INT? Grab END or EGO. Don't want PRE? Grab CON. Not in your school? Commission something from another school's crafter.
    Cambios wrote:
    The whole way the stats work in custom crafting makes absolutely no sense.

    The way random stats are paired with each other is just silly.

    Offensive stats on Offensive, Defensive stats on Defensive, Utility stats on Utility. Makes perfect sense to me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Offensive stats on Offensive, Defensive stats on Defensive, Utility stats on Utility. Makes perfect sense to me.
    Yes, but the concept of super-statting makes ANY stat an offensive stat. And as a healer, I have NO use for offensive stats whatsoever.

    My stat priorities when soloing are Int = Pre > Rec > End, and when healing they're Pre > Int = End > Rec. I have no use for anything outside that set of four except Con, which is a nice icing stat, and yet it's near impossible to build a crafted set of gear with those stats in the ratios I want.

    Let alone the fact that there's only six Presence options for crafted gear period, only two of which are pure, and only one of which merges Int and Pre (the petmaster's stats of choice AND the recommended stats for Sorcerers), and this wastes a third of the itemization on Ego, a wasted stat unless paired with a LARGE investment in Dexterity.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Zerromi wrote:
    Let alone the fact that there's only six Presence options for crafted gear period, only two of which are pure, and only one of which merges Int and Pre (the petmaster's stats of choice AND the recommended stats for Sorcerers),

    And here we have possibly the first legitimate issue in the whole thread - sorcery getting the shaft again. This is an actual, fixable problem - we just need more presence options, and ones tuned with sorcery in mind. Hopefully AP can come up with something workable here.
    and this wastes a third of the itemization on Ego, a wasted stat unless paired with a LARGE investment in Dexterity.

    Yes, because ego does absolutely nothing in the game other than crits. It definitely does not affect PFF, hold breaking, or the entire telekinesis framework. Sigh.

    When are people going to get it through their heads that stats do more than affect the crit rate?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    I am a Sorcerer (primary focus on healing/supporting and pet manipulation). My only Telekinesis ability is TK Shield, which gains no bonuses from Ego. I have no emphasis on Dexterity, due to its incredibly wonky scale needed to get any benefit from it. I use Lightning Sheath as an emergency hold-break, and notice no real benefit from the small amount of ego I DO have on intangible holds. I don't have Personal Forcefield, either.

    What, pray tell, does Ego do for me?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    To me, the problem here isn't stat caps. I couldn't care less what those are so long as they're balanced with the rest of the game. To me, the problem is twofold: lack of choice in crafting type if you want a particular stat, and the pairings and groupings of stats. Let me elaborate...

    Lack of Choice

    This game is all about customization. Making people take Craft X if they want stat Y is not good. Clearly someone at Cryptic thinks that Arms lends itself well to Con. I agree...for some concepts. And someone at Cryptic feels that Mysticism is a poor match for Con. I agree...for some concepts. But what about the genius inventor who loves creating the most deadly arsenal known to man, but who is a 98 pound weakling who feels it's all in the offense. Why should he get Con? Alternatively, what about the magically created golem who was created by wizards to be as durable as can be? Does it make sense that he should have to carry guns or learn kung fu? What about Hercules? He was the son of a god...yet in CO his strength couldn't come from that, he'd also need to learn Tai Chi in order to match others for strength. I can't see how this is NOT a huge problem. Now, now, of course I realize that you don't have to change your costume with items, and you can just ignore what the item and description says as you play, but should you have to ignore part of the game?

    Pairings and Groupings of Stats

    I have a character whose super stats are Con and Rec. He's supposed to be a boundless reserve of energy. Everything in the game supports this well except for itemization, and that includes crafting. Sure I can get those stats, but it's way, way harder than getting Str and Con or Int and Ego. The system as it is strongly favors certain stat combinations over others. It's as if the game is saying that there is a right way and a wrong way. Now, Cryptic has gone out of their way time and again to avoid this. That's why there are no classes and why you can pick any power, and why thre are talents galore. But itemization? Nope. You play with their ideas and not yours.

    Now, the way I see it, or at least saw it, was that that was the benefit of crafting. That is, you could fight mobs or farm them and hope to get the item with the perfect stats, or you could spend a roughly equal time crafting to make an item to your specifications and get exactly what you want. The downside to crafting would be that you aren't gaining xp and you're not getting all the loot that you don't want and selling it. That seems like the reasonable and logical way of doing things. So far, crafting for me has been something to do on the side, but I only get access to pretty much the same as drop loot. That is, I'm no more likely to want anything I can craft anymore than I want things that drop. There's very little advantage to crafting at all to me right now.

    I love crafting in games. I really love the crafting system in CO. But I just can't understand why it doesn't work with the same ideas of ultimate customization that everything else in the game has. It's my one real let down. Ah well. Maybe someone will fix it some day. Maybe.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    I just don't understand why they didn't implement a system that lets you pick any stat you want to put on an item slot, but the cost for the stat gets progressively higher the more you want of it.

    I.e. I want an item that has straight DEX, I can put up to 20 points of DEX on it. If I wanted to do DEX/EGO I can put 12 points of each on it. If I want DEX/EGO/END I can put 9 points of each on it. (Numbers obviously for example). If numbers get too high, tweak the item budget for the items, or the sliding scale on how each stat is allocted costs. Instant true customization, easily modifiable.

    Also, every crafting framework should be able to make the same stat items, with the difference in frameworks coming from specialty/novelty items (pets, on use items, costume pieces, etc.). That way players don't get punished for picking a specialty that is thematically appropriate, but ends up being useless in the endgame due to a total lack of documentation/communication on what exactly that crafting skill will provide in terms of stats.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    I think we have a few problems here, and in some cases I don't know if the culprit is the tool tip or the function itself. For example in most cases I'd agree with your notes on PRE, but it also (at least supposedly) increases general healing numbers, and pet health too. Both END and REC add to energy from EBuilder attacks, etc. This is only noted though in the odd place like on the pdf manual link or whathave. *shrug*

    I just happen to be a believer that each stat should be of some use to everyone even if it is minor but as long as that minor still fits into the idea of that framework. Either that or allow fully customizable gear to beneficial stats. But what does a dps non pet user need pre for? Pre is my main annoyance being I don't play healers (why play a healer when barely anyone groups and no real need to). But of course other class's have other points.... like str,dex,ego I don't see a use for for a healer besides if your soloing with the dps you need (isn't that what the idea of build 1, 2, 3 is for rather then mixing it all in the same gear).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Antiproton wrote:
    About 290 if you completely focus on a single stat with every talent, superstat, single stat gear, etc. 200ish is about where you can get to on two stats. So specialization gets you more in the single thing, but it come at a cost of increasing expense in the underlying "how good is a game stats entity" points.

    I don't see how this is if you pick certain stats. For example INT/END (recommended for gadget). INT and END both share the same primary (utility), forcing you to split the stat's on that one primary, and not have any of them on your defensive or offensive primaries.

    However if you're, for example, END/CON, you can have a single stat primary of your super stats in both Utility and Defensive.

    These two different stat combos obviously have different max values.

    If this was the way stat distributions were supposed to be designed, you should not be able to pick 2 super stats from the same category (STR/DEX/REC , CON/PRE, and EGO/END/INT), as you gimp your self, pure and simple.

    These stat distributions work in a normal mmo, where the stats you want are pre-defined, but not when you're allowed to customize which stats benefit you most.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Kayn wrote:
    (...) Now, now, of course I realize that you don't have to change your costume with items, and you can just ignore what the item and description says as you play, but should you have to ignore part of the game?

    Yes, crafting schools are junk thematically, this is nothing new and certainly not something that has just been introduced by this change. We've been all over it for months, and pretty much everybody agrees that the themes of crafting schools are messed up in comparison to the rest of the game, but there's not much can be done about it now.
    So far, crafting for me has been something to do on the side, but I only get access to pretty much the same as drop loot.

    Yes, but you don't have to spend three months grinding to get the blue/purple drop that you needed (and a hundred drops that you didn't need). That's pretty much exactly what crafting offers - no more or less. It's not a big deal but it does save time.
    Loate wrote:
    I just don't understand why they didn't implement a system that lets you pick any stat you want to put on an item slot, but the cost for the stat gets progressively higher the more you want of it.

    Because then your character would be exactly as good as you could afford to purchase, and pvp would be a contest to see who has the most resources. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

    The system they have designed is based around a presumption that at level 40, every character is roughly as effective as the rest, and variations in performance are purely based on how you choose to apply that limited capacity ("tactics"). They'll never quite achieve that, but over time things should get closer to that goal rather than further away.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Miiru wrote:

    The system they have designed is based around a presumption that at level 40, every character is roughly as effective as the rest, and variations in performance are purely based on how you choose to apply that limited capacity ("tactics"). They'll never quite achieve that, but over time things should get closer to that goal rather than further away.

    This is where the issue is for me, as the stat placement is fully unbalanced as it is. Some stat combos flat out get more stat points on gear than others.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Miiru wrote:
    ...

    Yes, but you don't have to spend three months grinding to get the blue/purple drop that you needed (and a hundred drops that you didn't need). That's pretty much exactly what crafting offers - no more or less. It's not a big deal but it does save time.
    ...

    Just like to toss out that it's like this now for someone who want's the "best" they can get. I spend hours grinding lv40 MV's to get the level 40 rare/epic drops because they're a few points better than the lv38 custom crafted...

    Luckilly I have a few characeters with different super stats (and all 3 crafting profs) so not everything goes to waste.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Antiproton wrote:
    In general spreading your points more is encouraged by the underlying systems. You get more stat points per "point" of Upgrade effectiveness the more stat types it spreads over (Specialization has a penalty). Many of the stats are synergistic, so net character effectiveness is highest if you spread your points over more stats.

    While it is great that stats are synergistic, that doesn't really change the fact that with the arrangement of enhancements as they are you just can't make good use of some stat pairings that are needed to make powers function well in-game.

    For example, what if you want to push END/EGO (superstats) and DEX? Not an unusual stat combinaton if you want to make use of PFF and take advantage of all of that crit severity from the ego.

    (I have no 4th stat that I plan to stat up as I just don't see any that would be of any use to me that wouldn't be gimping my defenses to improve.)

    From what I can tell, having just hit crafting 400 in Science, the gear I can put togethor (I don't seem to have any level 40 patterns yet, just level 38 ones) would have:

    Primary Offense: Hyper + Synaptic for +67 DEX
    Secondary Offense x2 : Synaptic for +16 DEX

    Primary Defense: [empty] + Alien for +9 END/EGO
    Secondary Defense x2: Alien for +9 END/EGO

    Primary Utility: PSI + Regenerative for +50 EGO, +16 END
    Secondary Utlity x2: Regenerative for +16 END

    Which results in a total of +99 DEX, +75 END, +75 EGO at level 38 with a full set of crafted purples.

    Right now, at level 33, using gear that is all level 31 or lower (and with only 1 blue, everything else being greens or yellows) I have +63 DEX, +108 END, +74 EGO.

    While I will have more DEX at 38 (better Offense slot items) I just do not see any value in replacing my Defense or Utility items as that would actually lower my characters effectiveness and cause me to die more often as it would reduce the strength of my defenses (PFF scaling off of END/EGO).

    Personally, I really dislike the 'fix' to the crafting system because it means there is now absolutely nothing in Defense/Major enhancements that I have any use for.

    Neither CON nor PRE has any benefit to me (not enough PRE to make a difference for threat or heals, extra health from CON again isn't enough to keep me alive for any length of time after PFF drops).

    The Dodge/Avoidance bonus are small enough to be inconsequential even after statting DEX without also taking Lightning Reflexes.

    The damage reduction enhancements are neat, except for the fact that when I tested them before they appear to kick in only on the damage that bleeds through PFF which again makes them again useless to me (plus, do I really want to swap gear for every type of attack I'll be facing in an instance?).

    While the freedom to choose any enhancement you wanted on any of the three types of upgrades may have been a bug, it at least allowed me to craft gear that was of use to me.

    Sad as it is, I expect that I am still going to be using my crafted level 31 Defense items that I made before the 'fix' happened at level 40 as I just do not see any use in the stuff I can craft now for that slot.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Antiproton wrote:
    "that the game is designed for"
    "the limits of what the system was designed for"


    Will someone at Cryptic please publish a frikkin manual of how we are supposed to play their game!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Miiru wrote:
    Because then your character would be exactly as good as you could afford to purchase, and pvp would be a contest to see who has the most resources. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

    You misunderstood what he said... I actually made a post where I posited a new system which would fit in with what he is saying.

    Basically he is saying that each item should have a fixed number of points you can use up by applying stats to it, and the higher a single stat is, the more points it uses up. So with the same number of points you could apply 20 of 1 stat, or 12 of 2 stats, or 9 of 3 stats.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Quinburger wrote:
    This is where the issue is for me, as the stat placement is fully unbalanced as it is. Some stat combos flat out get more stat points on gear than others.

    Now this is the sort of issue you can get fixed. Find specific examples and I'm sure Antiproton would be happy to look them over and see what can be done (there's a couple in this thread already).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    I really hope they undo this crafting "fix"
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