Framework Set Bonus - Suggestion

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The Problem:
This post is to help out with some imbalances that exist from pure (themed) alts. As everyone knows the problem that exist in the game with themed characters vs. min/max characters is that the themed alts have problems staying true to their build whilest still being able to play and enjoy the game properly. It wasn't until I visited the forums out of frustration that I realized that with certain defensive passives, soloing was not gonna be enjoyable. The main problem with themed alts is that they cannot solo effectively without dipping into other trees. Now that's ok if you don't mind min/maxing or don't mind having an alt that is tuned for soloing, but it really kills it for players that like having their alts have a certain look and feel. This is a game about customization, and creativity yet to solo effieciently you need to spec into a defensive passive (e.i. Lightning Reflexes, Regeneration...) or you need to spec into some sort of heal. Hence making it so that if you want to enjoy your leveling experience you have to go with a homogenized leveling build.

Alot of times, the reason themed alts have trouble is because skills got nerfed due to it's synergy with another ability in the game. Said Ability X was ok, but when combined with Ability Y from Tree Z, it became overpowered in pve/pvp. As such the devs nerf the ability in order to stop the exploit. Now, I have no problems with nerfs that are done to fix exploits, but where the problem in there lies is that said ability is now useless to themed alts. Players that were using the ability as intended are now gimped and frustrated; In many cases forced to reroll to a new alt. FOTM builds are killing players that are using abilitys as intended.

The system I have thought of is using a Framework Set Bonus system. Every 10 levels (10,20,30,40) you get a set bonus that is associated with your framework. It works similar to the advantage system that allows you to add effects to the powers such as Accelerated Metabolism, but it has stronger effects that can only be achieved once a certain amount of abilities have been specced. The main advantage to this system is that Framework problems can be addressed without overpowering the abilitys for every other tree. This way if a certain framework has survivability issues, it can be addressed for that build without forcing players of that build to look into other trees to make their build viable. Set bonuses can be placed in order to address the issue whilst not overpowering the ability for other trees.

The Solution:
At levels 10,20,30,40 player get 1 point for the framework bonus. These points can be spent on bonus sets as soon as a set bonus is achieved. Meaning that you get the point at level 10, but it can't be spent till you achieve a set bonus. Additionally the point can only be spent on the framework it was unlocked on. The set bonuses are 3, 5, 9 set bonus.

Tier 1 Set bonus: 3 powers of same framework
Tier 2 Set bonus: 5 powers of same framework
Tier 3 Set bonus: 8 powers of same framework
Optional Tier:
Tier 4 Set bonus: 12 powers of same framework (still contemplating T4 bonus as some trees have a max of 9 powers. This could lead to balance issues with trees such as Darkness. Probably best stopping at T3. All examples will be with no T4 in place.)

Each tier has different bonuses that unlock according to the skills you currently have. At level 40 if you have 8 Ice powers and 5 Fire powers, you will have:

1 Ice Tier 1 bonus
1 Ice Tier 2 or lower bonus
1 Ice Tier 3 or lower bonus
1 Fire Tier 2 or lower bonus

If you notice in Tier 2+ you can choose to go with bonus of lower tiers if you like.

EDIT: Non-energy building powers.

Tier Bonus Examples:
Here are a few examples of bonuses that can be implemented. I want to make it clear not to focus too much on the bonuses in place but rather the system of bonuses. Some of these bonuses maybe inbalanced, and it's the Set Bonus system I am trying to sell, not the actually bonus examples.

Tier 1 Ice Bonuses
First Frost - Ice Form
Dodge / Avoidance buff
Description:
Coats you in a layer of ice. Forcing attacks to slide off of you. Scales with Dex.

Basically what this bonus does is it turns Ice Form into a Lightning Reflexes. Now Ice builds can use Ice Form and still have survivability for leveling without the need of Lightning Reflexes or Regeneration. They can stay within their own powerset while still being able to solo/pvp effectively. Now this can seem as a form of homogenization. True, but we are focusing on Ice now. Who knows what the devs can think up for buffing LR for Martial Artist. Now before you get your flame jets ready and start pointing out what is soo obviously wrong with this bonus. Please remember. I am not trying to sell you the bonus, but rather the system. Fiery/Ice/Shadow Form are all great abilities that keep getting passed over by many players for LR and regen. I'm not selling the bonus but rather the system to fix the skills.

Now you may say, "we don't need this system, we just need to buff these form". Well if that happens then they become the must have abilities. Making it, that the Ice builds stop complaining but now all the Martial Artist have to spec into Ice to get a good passive. Hence the same problem reversed.

Conclusion:
In conclusion, this system is just a suggestion to get powersets more viability within their own sets. This system allows developers to nerf abilitys that are being abused by min/maxers while not overly hurting the players with themed alts. Chances are there are problems with this system or bonus system, but it's step in the right direction to looking for solutions for players that don't want to be forced into certain out of character passives. It also allows devs to address issues of survivability, or even damage output issues certain powersets may have, without overpower the ability for everyone.

Sample Tier Possibilities

You get 13 abilities that you learn by level 40. With 3/5/8 set bonuses, you would have the following possibilties:

Pure: 13 Primary Powerset:
3 set bonuses: Setup Options: 4/0 bonus setup
1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Primary)
1 Tier 2 Set bonus (Primary)
1 Tier 3 Set bonus (Primary)
1 Tier 1/2/3 bonus (Primary)

Typical Pure: 10 Primary / 3 Secondary:
4 set bonuses: Setup options: 3/1
1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Primary)
1 Tier 2 Set bonus (Primary)
1 Tier 3 Set bonus (Primary)
1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Secondary)

Balanced: 8 Primary / 5 Secondary:
5 set bonuses: Setup options: 2/2 or 3/1
1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Primary)
1 Tier 2 Set bonus (Primary)
1 Tier 3 Set bonus (Primary)or 1 Tier 2 Set bonus (Secondary)
1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Secondary) or 1 Tier 2 Set bonus (Secondary)

TriSpec: 5 Primary / 5 Secondary / 3 Third
5 set bonuses: Setup options: 2/2 or 2/1/1
1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Primary)
1 Tier 2 Set bonus (Primary)
1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Secondary) or 1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Third)
1 Tier 2 Set bonus (Secondary) or 1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Third)

Commitment Phobe: 3 Primary / 3 Secondary / 3 Third / 3 Fourth / 1 Fifth
4 set bonuses: Setup Options: 1/1/1/1
1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Primary)
1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Secondary)
1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Third)
1 Tier 1 Set bonus (Fourth)

Even the most min/max of builds would get bonuses, just not as high tier.

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This is a great idea, it would add a TON of depth to a game that is lacking quite a bit in that department.

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So, basically, you want the devs to reward players for not taking advantage of CO's schtick of being unrestricted by powerset?

/unsigned

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SkarmoryThePG wrote:

So, basically, you want the devs to reward players for not taking advantage of CO's schtick of being unrestricted by powerset?

/unsigned

No, but is it really unrestricted gameplay when most builds in the game are forced into LR or regen as a passive? If you choose not to go with a defensive passive then you have to go with a heal of some sort. Is that truly unrestricted gameplay?

This system is not to handicap players that want to jump from tree to tree. Its to allow players that have specific themes to atleast be viable to some extent. Even then most min/maxers would benefit from this as well as they would gain low tier bonuses for several powersets. You and I both know that Min/maxing will always be the best route to go for the best build. This isn't to hurt them, it's to help the players that want to control the way they play and not have the game restrict how they have to spec.

Right now, alot of builds require that you go LR, or regen as a slotted passive. I don't want to have to take a certain passive just to quest. Or forced into taking a heal just because I decided that I wanted to stick with offensive passive (Shadow form or Ice form) The fact of the matter is that in it's current form, the game is actually more restrictive then it leads to be. No matter what spec you choose, you are force into cookie cutter builds in order to be able to quest properly. A complaint that has been seen alot on these forums and even alot of major video game reviewers have made negative comments about this issue. (gamespot, and ign)

Some roles will require min/maxing. Tanks and healers really do need to jump around different trees. But should a player that wants to make an alt with a particular spec in mind not be allowed to play without getting frustrated? This concept balanced correctly would offer even more flexibility to the game.

Archived Post

I have to admit, I was skeptical of your position when I read the title.

Thought to myself "But this is a game meant to be unrestrictive, not foster cookie cutter builds".

However, you pose a strong argument and pose a valid solution that would not convince people to all take the same builds to be viable Champions.

You're suggested method seems it would add some lovely depth to the game, allow single framework Champions to be viable options, and not make it seem like any framework is THE powerset to have.


I have to agree, I second this motion.

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Honestly, i did not want to read those paragraphs, i sucked it up.. I could NOT agree more with you, bro. I had to waste my passive slot on Regeneration because my character isn't up to par with the cookie cuttin' builds. Nor was it up to par with the PvE (mainly because freakin telekinesis doesnt have an AOE at the level im at). So i suppot this motion. Good Luck my friend.

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Honestly, the un-restricted power selections doesn't really foster creativity and customization. It fosters cherry picking the best possible powers from every framework at the loss of any and all conceptual "Feel" of your champion.

That is not what a super hero should be. Some kind of bonus for staying within your framework more closely should be rewarded. Not enough to force everyone to stay in their frameworks, but I think it would be ideal to see most people stay within a two framework build, and occasionally going outside those two frameworks for a couple powers.

From a design, concept, and theme perspective....that sounds far more interesting than just letting people cherry pick frameworks for power builds. It's like if you gave someone $10,000 credit to make a car, but told them to take the parts out of a a number of top of the line racecars in your car lot.

They then procede to take the very best parts out of those cars. They end up with a car. It goes, it's fast. But it looks terrible, doesn't feel right, and nobody really wants to drive it.

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Didnt he say adding a slight bonus to people sticking with their framework to avoid cookie cutter builds to make the game more about customization? It also logically makes sense - the more time you spend with a sword the better with it you become (assumably) the more powers you develop with a specific element the more attuned to it you become.
Maybe add a certain level of bonus' that scale with how many frameworks you've chosen. If someone is going to every framework picking and choosing his strongest build then limit his bonus. If someone has a set character design that focus' mainly on 1-3 frameworks then give him a bonus. I mean one specific framework can't do it all right? And nobody would limit themself to one framework just to achieve a bonus perk. I'd like to think it'd make min/maxing a thing of the past and focus on the games true nature of customization. Of course this is my opinion, feel free to cook it over your open flames.

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In the end I don't want the bonuses to overpower single framework builds. I just want the bonuses to bring the classes somewhat up to par with the min/maxers. In the end Min/maxing will still be the better build. but atleast everyone won't be forced to min/max in order to do mundane things like quest.

Even them most min/maxers would get a couple of T1 or even T2 bonuses as well with this system. I chose 3/5/8 set bonus for a reason. it gives you the chance to still go out of your spec atleast once every ten levels and still acquire your set bonus for your tree. I want this to still be flexible for most players.

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I LOVE this post. Sticky this or better yet Cryptic use it. USE IT. USE IT. USE IT. I am one of those frustrated players already. I picked out a set of powers including a slotted defensive (sadly it was pff) and have suffered for my desire to stay in the theme of my character or chose not to make my character out of the most powerful builds.

This fact was proven to me this very morning when I was in the area for a quest I was working on from the night before that I kept dying on. Soon after my arrival to the area a certain hero had herded a large group of badies (10ish) relatively close to me, I stared on in horror and then in disbelief as the individual proceeded to take out the entire group by himself (yes is was my level and no it wasn't all henchmen, there was at least one super villain in the group as well). I asked him after wards and he simply told me he was a Gadgeteering build. Now I have always considered myself a decent player and thinker but with my force build I'm lucky if I can take on 3 badies and I'm usually left with next to no health and if more than one of those 3 are above henchmen level I'm toast.

So now I am left with the dilemma do I continue to try to make something of my toon that is now level 20 but I feel frustrated with because of all the deaths I have experienced or do I start a new toon and try to focus more on min/maxing just so I can actually enjoy playing. Hopefully I can come up with a character concept that makes sense to my new toon.

SO DEVS PLEASE CHECK THIS OUT AND TAKE IT TO HEART AND THEN TO DEVELOPMENT.

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Right: basic idea: YAY!
Problem: There are already enough downsides to taking two sets and splashing a third.

what do I mean? well lets say I want to make someone who fights with pistols, a sword, and uses armor, a modern virsion of a Knight for example. What springs to mind?

Munitions: gunslinger to build energy at any range, Two Gun Mojo, Lead Tempest, ect.
Single Blade: Reapers Caress for melee damage, Embrace for spike damage, Dragons Bite (name may be wrong here) for Momentum and damage. ect options as needed.
Power Armor: Invonerablity to represent the armor, possibly Unbreakable.

Ah but here is the rub, because I took Munitions Builder power, I must wait to get the Dragons and Embrace powers. well ok, I pay that price for having both. I must also wait a bit for Two Gun Mojo, and quite a while for Lead Tempest, But I accepted that. Here is where it falls apart.
If I take Lightning Reflexes, which exists in single blade: Dragons Bite at 17th, Reapers Embrace at 20th, Lead Tempest at 26th.
But I took Invonerablity. which is in power armor. so: Dragons Bite at 17th, Reapers or Lead Tempest at 23, and the other at 26. This single choise of power outside of my framework costs me 3 levels of fighting without my main melee spike attack, or without any form of AoE until 26th.

These Timings are because of the Teir/Framework system, and those powers placement in them.
If The defensive passive/active powers were all in each set (thus counting towards getting to the next teir) this problem vanishes, restoring me to Dragons Bite at 17th, Reapers Embrace at 20th, Lead Tempest at 26th.

Given how key these powers are to being effective, it is rather important I can get them asap.

Now, how does this relate to Framework Bonus?
They would work off this same Teir system. so the same basic realitys would apply.

On the whole, the idea of a benifit for sticking within one basic framework is a good idea, but without it taking into account the need to splash a third set for the defensive power (passive or active, or both) for a given concept, it becomes a drag.

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Sorain wrote:

Right: basic idea: YAY!
Problem: There are already enough downsides to taking two sets and splashing a third.

what do I mean? well lets say I want to make someone who fights with pistols, a sword, and uses armor, a modern virsion of a Knight for example. What springs to mind?

Munitions: gunslinger to build energy at any range, Two Gun Mojo, Lead Tempest, ect.
Single Blade: Reapers Caress for melee damage, Embrace for spike damage, Dragons Bite (name may be wrong here) for Momentum and damage. ect options as needed.
Power Armor: Invonerablity to represent the armor, possibly Unbreakable.

Ah but here is the rub, because I took Munitions Builder power, I must wait to get the Dragons and Embrace powers. well ok, I pay that price for having both. I must also wait a bit for Two Gun Mojo, and quite a while for Lead Tempest, But I accepted that. Here is where it falls apart.
If I take Lightning Reflexes, which exists in single blade: Dragons Bite at 17th, Reapers Embrace at 20th, Lead Tempest at 26th.
But I took Invonerablity. which is in power armor. so: Dragons Bite at 17th, Reapers or Lead Tempest at 23, and the other at 26. This single choise of power outside of my framework costs me 3 levels of fighting without my main melee spike attack, or without any form of AoE until 26th.

These Timings are because of the Teir/Framework system, and those powers placement in them.
If The defensive passive/active powers were all in each set (thus counting towards getting to the next teir) this problem vanishes, restoring me to Dragons Bite at 17th, Reapers Embrace at 20th, Lead Tempest at 26th.

Given how key these powers are to being effective, it is rather important I can get them asap.

Now, how does this relate to Framework Bonus?
They would work off this same Teir system. so the same basic realitys would apply.

On the whole, the idea of a benifit for sticking within one basic framework is a good idea, but without it taking into account the need to splash a third set for the defensive power (passive or active, or both) for a given concept, it becomes a drag.

The idea is pretty solid and allows for added customization, depending on implementation. What you describe is pretty much your own fault and not a fault of the system. Choosing powers for your build at specific levels of availability is key. No power is out of reach past level 23, save for additional energy builders, and it doesn't take long at all to get to that level. Assuming this gets implemented, just for sake of argument, and depending on how this hypothetical implementation is handled, Framework Bonuses could help "ease the pain" of not having a specific type of ability, such as a reliable AoE or Hold, until such a time that you can get the one you want. Not only that, but if each bonus tier had several different bonuses to choose from, you could have two characters with identical powers and gear play completely differently. I rather like that idea.

As was suggested previously, this type of system could help to balance out some of the lackluster power sets, such as Martial Arts, and provide some extra flair to strong, but shallow power sets, such as Force and Darkness. I'd love to have a Darkness character who's Shadow Form gave all of his Darkness powers a minor life stealing effect, for example. Perhaps Martial Arts Claws powers whose crits cause a moderate bleed effect? How about a Munitions character who fires hollow point rounds from his pistols for added carnage?

I need to stop here, lest I get my hopes up and become giddy.