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Outleveling Insights / Profunities / Etc.
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So I just got into the 200s for crafting tonight and decided to go back and try to pick up some of those recipes I had missed earlier which required Slights or Milds that I didn't have at the time.
A half-hour and a lot of low-level crafting later I realized I had a problem. The low level items I could craft never, regardless of how many I staked up, seemed to get over 0/5 for Research difficulty and when broken down like that weren't giving me any Slights at all.
I tried some of the next range up and while I could eventually stack them up enough to get to a higher research difficulty it became somewhat resource prohibitive quickly as I was needing 8 or 9 of the item to do so and even then I didn't get any Milds that I needed.
How do you go about getting those items after you've leveled past their range? I am assuming, and I thought I had seen this on the boards before, that the dificulty of the Research determined your chance not just of skill-ups but of getting those Slights and Milds.
I don't want those low level recipes to use them for myself (they weren't useful for me even when I was in the level range for them) but I would like to be able to make them for friends, and alts, and to sell, and because I am a mildly OCD completionist, but I just can't seem to get the items I need anymore to learn the blueprints.
Any suggestions from people about this? Thanks.
A half-hour and a lot of low-level crafting later I realized I had a problem. The low level items I could craft never, regardless of how many I staked up, seemed to get over 0/5 for Research difficulty and when broken down like that weren't giving me any Slights at all.
I tried some of the next range up and while I could eventually stack them up enough to get to a higher research difficulty it became somewhat resource prohibitive quickly as I was needing 8 or 9 of the item to do so and even then I didn't get any Milds that I needed.
How do you go about getting those items after you've leveled past their range? I am assuming, and I thought I had seen this on the boards before, that the dificulty of the Research determined your chance not just of skill-ups but of getting those Slights and Milds.
I don't want those low level recipes to use them for myself (they weren't useful for me even when I was in the level range for them) but I would like to be able to make them for friends, and alts, and to sell, and because I am a mildly OCD completionist, but I just can't seem to get the items I need anymore to learn the blueprints.
Any suggestions from people about this? Thanks.
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Have another look at the probabilities for that? An observation: in the 1-100 tier, I got a whole lot of slight insights. In the 201-300 tier, I can't remember how long it's been since I saw one. The drop rate seems to be much lower, which is just weird.
Also, the experiment quality seems to move in quite large increments (if I'm understanding it correctly, in the 201-300 tier a yellow item gives me 3/5, and a green gives me 4/5, and a white gives me nothing), so I'm not sure it's even possible to do 1/5 or 2/5 experiments in this tier. Certainly none of the items I'm getting have been able to give me values that low.
As I've said before: I really, really want the experiment screen to show me which type of insight an experiment might drop, and the probability of it happening.
Sorry, may be lack of sleep on my part but I can't quite make heads or tails out of that answer.
Do you mean that as my skill groups up the lesser insights (Slight, Mild, etc.) become easier to get from the reward table for Research and thus I don't have to bump the difficulty as hgh?
Or do you mean that as I go up in skill the chance of getting those insights goes down and I should be simply trying more times at lower difficulty for a greater number of lesser chances?
Likely, I am over-thinking this entirely and your answer is something real simple that someone will point out in a post or two and I'll be /facepalm'ing due to my failure to grasp your meaning.
Sorry and thanks for the reply even if I can't seem to wrap my brain around it right now.
This.
Where you need a 5/5 to get them at your level, a 4/5 will give you the chance for the ones that are 1 tier below, and a 3/5 should give you a chance to get the ones 2 tiers below.
I think.
Please correct me with cold hard numbers if I'm wrong AP.
Yet another reason crafting needs to be explained in easy-to-understand language. I have no idea what you are saying (though I'd like to). Are Cliff Notes available?
If it is indeed not possible to get the lower level ones once you get too high, that's just horrible design.
Edit - Basically it looks to me like you have to intentionally stop before buying the next 100 skill max, and get all your discoveries if you want to, otherwise you'll gain too much skill and stop getting the insights/profundities/etc (forget what the science ones are called) Which i don't really mind TOO much, but i wish i'd known that. Really the currency items should be tradable, so at least you could make an alt and work on the lower stuff. Even if you just make them bind on account so you can mail to yourself.
There needs to be a way to convert higher tier Insight/Profundity items into lower tier equivalents, make them tradeable, or be able to get them from researching higher tier items.
The fact that none of this is explained anywhere will just compound the problem when folks discover they're out of luck.
So what you're saying is, we have to choose between buying a skill tier and getting our level up to craft things, or sitting around at the 100 cap and disassembling lots of items to generate enough insights? And once we buy a skill tier, we are permanently crippled in our ability to obtain insights?
That doesn't sound like a very good plan to me...
Don't get me wrong. I love your crafting setup. I love taking things apart. I love being able to create my own items out of the different adjectives we can buy. We just need a little more transparency on the whole incite thing.
You have to dismantle stuff while you're at the cap, basically forfeiting any possible skill gains from them. I normally hold on to stuff once i'm at the cap, and only dismantle if i need the mats to make something for myself, an alt or a friend.
The only solution i've found, since im at 300, is to reset the skill and start over. It will be easier to gain, since i have some materials and can make some stuff to dismantle, but thats a really crappy solution.
You might have QA take a look and make sure this actually works. I know they have tools to just create stuff, so they can just make a bunch of crap and break it. I could test this thoroughly in a couple hours and extensively exhaust the possibility. If it does work, they'd know it fairly fast, if not, it could take several hours to be sure it does not.
THIS.
Expecting the player to know NOT advance too fast makes no sense at all.
Advance at whatever rate you like. Best odds of getting Tier appropriate Discoveries is at 5/5.
4/5 for one tier back, 3/5 for two tiers back, etc?
He's right, there's no indication anywhere that we should stop at a cap and make more stuff to get our discovery stuff.
Now, can YOU personally verify that you can definitely get lower tier disco stuff from higher tier dismantles? As i stated above i've yet to see one and i've done a fair bit of crafting. I'm currently planning to gather a bunch of crap from lower levels and reset my mysticism, though i think that's a ****-poor alternative at best.
I had one today actually. It definitely does work, though it seems to be a bit rarer. And I'm not sure what experiment complexity we're supposed to be shooting for exactly...
By the way, did you know there's an edit button so you don't have to double post when somebody slides in under you and needlessly extend the thread onto another page? Just FYI.
Well, i guess that depends on how you keep your forum formatted. I guess the cascading setup makes new edits pop to more noticable locations, but i've never gotten used to that format.
EDIT: Yea I know I'm being a jackass here. But hey, telling someone straight in their virtual face that what they put their heart and soul into is horrible design isn't very nice either.
I'm glad they don't do those things. I'm glad that when I do some research at a table, it feels like it's actually research, because I'm not sure what result I'm going to get, and sometimes I get unexpected results. I remember reading a post from another professional researcher who was quite happy with the current state of the crafting system.
If you don't like R&D, and you just want to reliably get the gear that you want, then I suggest you wait a few days, because all that gear will be available on the market soon enough (it comes out 'bind on equip', and crafters have more reason to want money than anyone else - aside from people who are unhappy with their builds, anyway).
Maybe I've been doing things wrong, but did Antiproton say you can load multiple items into the Research window to up the success level? I've tried dragging multiple items in before and they never went in, so do I specifically need to stack say a 2/5 & a 3/5 to = a 5/5 or is the math more complex than that? I'll do some testing when I get on later, but so far I only seem to be able to get 1 item in at a time.
It is possible there is one but I have not checked myself as I pick a lot of knowledge up on the forums (like this one) or from learning in game.
Where there are npcs & heroes which describe game aspects perhaps there should also be remote access to an UNTIL terminal which provides a detailed help guide covering information in sections like the above described by AntiProton. I have levelled my crafting skills above 100. Perhaps if I had known the above I might have not increased my skill just yet.
Also it isn't as simple as adding a 2 and a 3. The distance on the bar you must go to advance to the next threshold goes up between thresholds.
Okay, but why does doing a 3/5 (one yellow item) at tier 3 (201-300) give slight insights at a *massively* lower rate than doing a 5/5 (one of almost any item) at tier 1? That's what we're asking: why is it that going up a tier gives a permanent penalty to the drop rate of the lower-tier insights?
It's good to level at whatever rate you like...but it is quite disconcerting to have no idea how most of the stuff actually works. Like, for instance, which type of crafting aids which attributes. Nothing that I saw when picking them showed that there was a difference at all. Just as finding the discoveries...well...it'd just be nice to know what's going on really.
The crafting contacts you first go to have help topics about the differences of the skills and exactly what they are good for...if only people would just read all of these things one time through.
This! Every bit of 'help' information that contacts give needs to be put in a game menu accessible from anywhere.
Read what he said in this thread please... stick a green item of your level in and it'll probably be 4/5, which gives you a chance of getting a discovery 1 tier below, or a yellow at 3/5 for 2 tiers below, etc.
You do NOT need to cap your level until you have what you need. You can adjust your research to give you the lower tier ones, at the cost of it not giving you as much of a skill up. I was skeptical on this in beta as well but it DOES work.
A 5/5 research gives you the best skill up, and a chance for an "insight" at your current tier.
a 4/5 research gives a slightly less skill up, and a chance at an "insight" for the tier below you.
a 3/5 research gives less skill up still, and a chance at an "insight" for 2 tier below you.
You do not need to cap yourself at any point. You simply need to choose to trade off maximum skill gain for a chance to get the insight you want.
That's counter-intuitive though to retard your progression so you can pick up recipes. A player doesn't think "I'm better off doing a 3/5 research instead of a 5/5." A player in game has no way of knowing they're cut off from prior tier Insights if they do what would logically be best, attempting a 5/5 research.
Again, this has nothing to do with slowing your progression, you are *never* cut off from any insights. Yes, there needs to be more indication as to what researching different levels does.
ok so the deal is- the best way to get the special insights and such is to use items that are around your skill level (i.e. at 200 crafting, level 20 or so items) and try to get close to a number that reflects how far back you want. So, at level 21, and 201 skill, a 5/5 research will likely net you a 200s epiphany. a 4/5 will likely net you a 100s epiphany, and a 3/5 or lower may net your a 0-100 epiphany.
the ideal is of course at the 400 skill level, where 5/5 gives you 400 4/5 gives you 301 3/5 gives you 201 2/5 gives you 101 and 1/5 gives you 0-100
the idea is to NEVER HAVE TO GRIND LOW LEVEL ITEMS, just crappy ones around your skill level for the lower level epiphanies.
Tier 1 is meant for everybody who even vaguely tries it to be able to master, it is the learning bracket
Tier 2 is meant that anybody who keeps trying to experiment on all their stuff as they swap it out, and picks up every node they come across, can master
Tier 3 is mean to require active effort where the crafted explictly gathers Upgrades for Research, goes out of their way to grab every node they pass, trades with other players to get the correct school of Upgrades, uses the market, etc. to master.
Tier 4 requires all that and a substantial focus, mastering tier 4 is meant to be an accomplishment.
Had i known it was this way, it would not have been such a big deal, however, anyone who tries to progress the most efficient way possible will miss some disco items, and not know why til it's too late. This is bad design, you may not want to admit it AP but it is. I love the crafting system, but this is just poorly thought out. We should be able to either trade discos, use higher tier ones for a lower discovery, or turn them in for a lower level 1, or even 2, whatever. The system as it is sucks for lower tier discos if you've skilled efficiently. THAT is the problem. Being a smart player, and planning ahead in a logical manner given an understanding of skill ups, should not feel like you did it backwards.
Edit - making higher tier disco items work for lower tier stuff: i.e. profundity for mild or slight prof, would be more confusing, so if that's the route, one of the trainers needs to offer trades for a lower tier, to avoid further confusion imo.
Again, good information, I just don't see how the average player was supposed to pick up on this. More info for the manual, perhaps?
Just as an aside on this, I get this idea, but if you want to do it this way maybe you could disconnect the crafting nodes from these teirs? I say this because if the goal is for every character to NOT have 301+ skill by level 31, then it would suck for players that like to keep their node-buffs active as often as possible. My Blizzaga practically depends on the Mystic buff to keep her juiced. Maybe make it so that all the 201+ nodes only require 101+, the 301+ only need 201, etc. Honestly the abilility to use harvesting nodes it the main reason I level up my crafting, since aside from bags have little use for the actual gear I'm allowed to make with it.
Thanks.
That explanation makes a lot more sense and now I know I can ditch most of my low-level crafting junk (freeing up basically my entire bank again) and ignore the low-level nodes to focus on the ones that will actually give me items for my skill range.
I've read through your replies and I still think something is being overlooked:
Basically if we the player realize how it works ahead of time it's very easy to game the system(by doing things completely backwards) and get to tier 4 + get all the lower insights you need.
I think what I'm asking here is why make it so incredibly easy to get all the insights in the game by doing something silly like choosing to temporarily not raise our skill cap?
So it took me most of the evening, because i didnt have enough mats or items set aside to do it over, but all in all not too bad. Just finished getting the last few profundity recipes (tier 3 mysticism) and now i just need 31 to move on to tier 4.
I had only missed one slight prof, and about 6 or so mild prof recipes, but was pretty easy. I have like 9 slights put away now, and 2 or 3 slights. I'll keep em just in case i switch to one of the other mystic categories. Although i believe only power replace consumable and conversions take the disco items. I didnt see any in the arcana or enchanted gear sets from 1-200 (havent looked at the higher ones, and i'm avatar) so probably wont need them. Maybe they'll make em tradable eventually, so i'll bank em.
Really not looking forward to tier 4 though, i think there are like 4 things that need 1 greater prof, and i thought i saw something that takes 3, but didnt see it just now. Anyway, changing specs and resetting is a totally viable option if you, like me, are having zero luck getting lower tier discovery items once you've leveled past. It's not the best option obviously, but not too bad all in all.
I still dont have a single greater profundity right now
Ah, and i'm broke