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Josh Strife Hayes has done Champions Online!

https://youtu.be/3kmQzYCAh9o

I for one found his comments to be very fair.
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Comments

  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,589 Arc User
    I can't believe that they downgraded the page for purchasing Lifetime by removing all the info of what it provides.
  • sapphiechusapphiechu Posts: 259 Arc User
    It is certainly a dopey move on Cryptic's part. Almost like they don't want lifetime subs…
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  • jarfarujarfaru Posts: 91 Arc User
    Every time someone does a review video about this game its not with a freeform character so I think his review and others are lacking the heart of the game. Their reviews are meaningless to me.
  • thisiscraftaaathisiscraftaaa Posts: 185 Arc User
    jarfaru wrote: »
    Every time someone does a review video about this game its not with a freeform character so I think his review and others are lacking the heart of the game. Their reviews are meaningless to me.

    I'm of the mind that their reviews are incredibly meaningful, because they're experiencing what every single new player in the game is forced to experience before they "get past the boring part" and "get to the good stuff" unless they're willing to blind-spend something like a hundred bucks on a game they haven't even really played. With good stuff meaning anything from the same monotonous level-40 SCR, GCR, Q and G grind, to actually having a freeform slot or three to use for things (or at least being in a position to unlock more good ATs) to being in a spot to shoot for costume unlocks that aren't just the random greens that drop from assorted mooks every now and then.

    What they're experiencing is the filter that exists to try and keep as many new players out of the game as possible. So their assessment of said filter is incredibly important. After all, the more new players are prevented from playing, the less new potentially paying players we have to keep the game afloat.

    I know personally, I spent the whole of Josh's video alternating between "oh my god, I know, right?!" and "oh sweet jesus you fell for (insert newbie trap here)" endlessly. The fact that he only got to level 15 (something that takes a more seasoned player a casual one or two hours, or even faster depending on what they're doing) over the course of... yeesh, going off snippets of Zone at the bottom left corner of his screen that I recognized because this game is that tiny, several days of play I want to say? Don't blame the player for not playing when the game doesn't want them to play. And the game really doesn't want people to play. At all. Even if them playing now means them spending money later. It just wants spending money now, spending money later, "and if you could just maybe not log in at all otherwise because your existence strains our servers, that would be great."
    Defender save my soul, for I have sinned...
  • I feel the freeform as the heart of the game is sort of wrong. Someone could probably do a deep-dive that Champions RPG thus Champions Online is actually hoisted up by Templates/Package Deals/Archetypes. Thus not throwing new players into an inferno with BUILD from SCRATCH YOU NEWB SCRUB!

    Ask Cryptic - May 2, 2008:
    [Choosing an "archetype" gives you bonuses with certain categories of powers, not just powers listed under your archetype. For example, if you choose Brick as your focus, any defensive powers you choose are more effective because you're a Brick. Using your fire blast example, Bricks are just as effective as Mentalists when it comes to fire blasts, but Energy Projectors gain a bonus when using them because that's their focus.]

    **2006-2008 = Archetype-focused and Role-based on Superhero/Champions RPG Archetypes. Similar to City of Heroes, but not stuck on just two pools;
    City of Heroes: Blaster ex:Fire Blast+Fire Manipulation
    Champions Online: Blaster ex: Fiery Melee+Fire Blast+Fire Aura+Fire Manipulation+Fire Control+Fire Mastery+Fire Assault // Basically gets everything, but only bonuses to ranged damage:

    6e(2012+): [Tactically, Blasters usually provide “artillery support” for a superteam, and often allow the team to affect adversaries other characters cannot reach.]
    6e+(2017+): [ENERGY PROJECTORS, This archetype is a catchall for any super whose primary powers involve ranged attacks that manipulate some sort of energy or substance.]
    I don't have access to 6e++(2022+ Champions RPG stuff), but it does return back to blaster as [THE BLASTER].

    Then,

    Evolution of Game Design: Rethinking Archetypes - May 23, 2008:
    ... [Let's talk about archetypes with regards to evolving game designs in Champions Online. Earlier on in the design of Champions Online we discussed how archetypes such as Brick, Energy Projector, etc., filled certain roles in the Champions universe and how each archetype gained bonuses to powers typical of their role. Power selection wasn't restricted by archetype – archetypes just provided bonuses to certain types of powers. The idea was to break the "class" mold prevalent in so many other MMOs while still providing some guidance for players who were new to the superhero genre or new to gaming. However, when we discussed this briefly in one of the Cryptic Q&A sessions, the prevailing reaction by the community was strongly against any type of archetype bonuses whatsoever, no matter how small.] ...

    Then, that decision was rewinded for:

    State of the Game: July 22nd, 2009
    [What’s My Role?

    Unlike most MMOs, Champions Online doesn’t have rigidly defined classes. Players can choose the focus of their hero by the powers they choose, what advantages they put on them, and the statistics on which they concentrate. Another key element to this is what Role the hero elects to take at any time. Set through the Builds interface, here are the four main Roles currently in the game:
    Guardian (Balanced) - Versatile Passive Slot
    Avenger (Offense) - Offensive Passive Slot
    Sentinel (Defense) - Defensive Passive Slot
    Protector (Support) - Support Passive Slot]

    **May 2008-2011 = Freeform-focused and then Role-based on MMO Archetypes.

    Then, the above snowballs into:
    State of the Game: October 26th, 2010
    [Heroic Archetypes - The really big thing we're doing is adding a whole new way to choose your hero's powers! When you create a hero, you may choose an Archetype, which will specify which powers you earn as you level up. Archetypes aren't general like classes or roles, nor do they simply map to our frameworks. Archetypes are character builds that mimic a specific kind of superhero from the comic pages. For example, one of the Archetypes is "The Blade." As you might guess, The Blade is a melee based character focused on using single-blade powers. He specializes in doing tons of damage to single targets. For comparison, "The Brute" is also a melee character that dishes out tons of damage, but instead focuses more on group combat and survivability. The Free-to-Play update will have at least eight of these Archetypes available to play right off the bat, and we'll be adding more every month.]

    **January 25, 2011-Present = Archetype-focused and Role-based on MMO Archetypes.

    Most of the games active lifespan is with archetypes. However, we are kind of missing the dual-role system of Neverwinter and DCUO. Imho, the reason we don't have dual-roles with our archetypes is probably because of the freeform/custom archetype.
  • sapphiechusapphiechu Posts: 259 Arc User
    jarfaru wrote: »
    Every time someone does a review video about this game its not with a freeform character so I think his review and others are lacking the heart of the game. Their reviews are meaningless to me.

    With Josh Strife Hayes, one of the things he considers important is the accessibility the game has from the point of view of a new player. There is very little chance that a brand new player is going to immediately throw down – what is it now, $25.00? – on a freeform slot when they don't know the mechanics of the game and need to learn good synergy and power-activation order. Archetypes are a good way to do that, and the ones that are given to a brand new player are a decent, if not exhaustive, cross-section of fairly typical super hero types.

    JSH gives every game a fair shake, and in all honestly, I found is review to be, overall, a positive one. He recognized failings that a lot of us veteran players have known for ages, showed that we have a supportive community (Thanks, Alto! You represented the best of us!), and that while the game has always been something of the black sheep of Cryptic's stable, it's never been dead, and always seems to get new players. We might not keep most of those players, but I think that could be as much to with the potty mouths and mindless arguing that we get in Zone than it is to CO's admittedly dated design.

    We still have the best superhero designer , and if nothing else, having people that just want to use the tailor to make different designs for drawing references, etc., is still a population that we should be welcoming. The newbies are our friends!

    Anyone that argues "Oh, it gets good after 20-hours/40-hours/100-hours doesn't understand game design at all. If the first two hours of your game is crap, crap is all a new player is going to expect, and hiding the 'good stuff' behind a 20/30/40/100 hour grind is bad game design. CO's tutorial is, in my opinion, one of the best out there, even after 14 years! Sure, it's kinda dated, but while you are told now that it is a simulation, it's still the same mission: help the EMTs, find the cat, defend Champions HQ, SAVE THE WORLD! And in that short sequence of missions, all the basics are given to you.

    In closing: Josh Strife Hayes approached the game openly, and gave it a good go. Remember that he is writing notes throughout his play time, unlike most of us that just play solidly, sometimes even rushing because we've done Save The Scientists 100 times already. He actually only officially plays for about eight hours total, not including his note-taking. If I remember rightly, he does state that at the end of his official play-through, he did play some more.
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  • tomqqtomqq Posts: 20 Arc User
    As kinda new player that started at january of 2022 and still playing Hayes in his review was accurate on the perspective of a new player.

    When i started and thanks to a friend that i played and level together as Radiant (horrible dps slow progress) i didnt suffer much. The tutorial invasion is agreat way and i like it, even the videos on Powerhouse are nice and explain basic stuuf good but after that you get thrown to a jungle in the middle of amazon and you expect to swim. If i ddint had my 2 friends here it will be a horrible thing to learn and discover basic stuff that all other people know by now after 10lvl and up.

    Funny enouph the ingame tutorial is prety good but its hidden and all is in text.
    IF the game had a nice web page tutorial and explained stuff there and i didnt had to run to a wall to find out would be great , also gear dropping is horrible as new player .... Radiant getting str or recovery stuff ye awesome isnt it.
    One of the things i liked is doing events (Nightmare was my 1st one) was easy to score and complete even as 20lvl but again if i didnt had 2 friends il be lost on the quests which i never knew where to pick :(

    So for me the most important thing is a proper tutorial for new players to guide them on their first steps of their character and if they like the game they can stay and throw money else they will gone before that it happens (i dislike other stuff in the game but isnt this thread for that).
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 181 Arc User
    > @jarfaru said:
    > Every time someone does a review video about this game its not with a freeform character so I think his review and others are lacking the heart of the game. Their reviews are meaningless to me.

    What a silly take, don't you need skill and knowledge to use a FF? [a novice won't have at start] You do know we got alot of options for powers, right? Heals, crowd control, debuffs, singles, and does, etc, Also being an FF is expensive. Global/Gold wise to the point it goes over Silver/F2P limit which is 500Gs by the way.

    I have seen cases of people screwing up their builds aswell myself doing such its not that fun.

    Why it's best to be a archetype first so you get the better idea of what you doing when you become a freeform later on.
  • I doubt the JSH will do a complete playthrough like he did with Otherland or even a retrospective. That is expecting a lot for this game.

    Of that, only NerdSlayer is close to being in-depth on publishers side.

    MitchManix goes further in gameplay.

    imho, Gameplay-wise it has only gotten worse from:
    https://www.ign.com/articles/2009/09/16/champions-online-review
    https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/champions-online-review/1900-6217234/

    However, I lean towards ZcriptureZ and NickWing reviews.

    The farthest we got for an in-depth review is NerdSlayer, but he didn't make it to Hero Games from Publishers from Cryptic.

    Basically, only thing to find with that is graves, blood stains, and a death of a beloved IP:
    I believe if you go to City of Heroes/MMORPG related-forums they basically uncover the J.E., B.R., S.D. bombs, I feel really bad for P.F; really two fantasy projects?! Instead, of I don't know a rebaked Champions Online. I'll totally pre-order and pre-lifetime again, if Cryptic rebakes Champions to have Neverwinter's PVE and Gigantic's PVP.

    Some retrospective stuff if they ever get to hero games stuff:
    Champions RPG (Blaster Sets):
    1. Air/Wind Blaster (PD): Wind Blast (Blast, Double Knockback), Right Back Atcha (Reflection, Only vs. physical projectiles), Vacuum Attack (Blast, NND [defense is LS: Self-Contained Breathing]), Wind Control (Telekinesis), Tornado Blast (Blast, Area Of Effect: Radius).
    2. Earth/Stone Blaster (PD): Rock Blast (Blast), Rock Darts (RKA, Armor Piercing, Autofire), Wall Of Stone (Barrier, Opaque to Sight Group), Dirt In Your Eyes (Sight Group Flash), Rock Shard Spray (Blast, Area Of Effect: Cone).
    3. Electricity Blaster (ED): Lightning Blast (Blast), Lightning Bolt (RKA), Stunning Zap (Blast, NND [defense is ED Resistant Protection that Costs Endurance, or being insulated]), Lightning Flare (Blast + Sight Group Flash, Linked), Direct Current Paralysis (Entangle, Takes No Damage From Attacks).
    4. Energy Blaster (ED): Energy Blast (Blast), Energy Bolt (RKA), Energy Explosion (Blast, Area Of Effect: Radius, Explosion), Pulse-Blast (Blast, Autofire), Stun-Blast (Blast, NND [defense is Power Defense]).
    5. Fire Blaster (ED): Fire Blast (Blast), Fire Bolt (RKA), Fireball (Blast, Area Of Effect: Radius, Explosion), Wall Of Fire (RKA, Area Of Effect: Line), Fiery Aura (RKA, Armor Piercing, Constant, Area Of Effect (personal Surface – Damage Shield, No Range).
    6. Ice/Cold Blaster (PD): Ice Blast (Blast), Ice Darts (RKA, Autofire), Ice Block (Entangle, Vulnerable to Fire/Heat), Blizzard
    (Change Environment, Area Of Effect: Radius, Personal Immunity), Deep Freeze (Blast, NND [defense is LS: Safe in Intense Cold]).
    7. Light Blaster (ED): Blinding Light (Sight Group Flash), Blinding Light Field (Darkness to Sight Group), Laser (RKA,
    Beam), Light Energy (Blast), Holograms (Sight Group Images).
    8. Magnetic Blaster (PD): Magnetic Blast (Blast), Magnetokinesis (Telekinesis, Only works on ferrous metals), Bullet Return
    (Reflection, Only works vs. physical projectiles), Electro-Magnetic Pulse (Dispel, Any Electrical Device Power one at a time), Metallic Wrap-Up (Entangle, OIF: sufficient ferrous metals of opportunity).
    9. Matter Manipulator (varies): Disintegration (RKA), Transmutation (Transform), Animate Object (Summon).
    10. Radiation Blaster (ED): Radiation Blast (Blast), Deadly Radiation (RKA), Radiation Wave (Blast, Area Of Effect: Line, NND [defense is LS: Safe in High Radiation]), Radiation Sickness (Drain CON), Radioactive Zone (Change Environment, Area Of Effect: Radius).
    11. Sonic/Vibration Blaster (PD): Vibration Attack (Blast), Focused Sonic Beam (RKA, Penetrating), Agonizing Sound (Blast, NND [defense is Hearing Group Flash Defense or being deaf), Inner Ear Disorientation (Drain, Two Characteristics Simultaneously [DEX and CON]), Sonic Cry (Hearing Group Flash).
    12. Telekinetic/Force Blaster (PD): Telekinesis (Telekinesis), Force Blast (Blast), Kinetic Bolt (RKA), Telekinetic Globe (Barrier, Non-Anchored, Dismissible), Telekinetic Blade (HKA).
    13. Water Blaster (PD): Water Blast (Blast); Water Control (Telekinesis, Affects Porous, Only vs. Water); Water Jet (Blast, Double Knockback), Water Spray (Blast, Area Of Effect: Cone), Dehydrate (Blast, NND [defense is LS: No Need to Drink, or a body that lacks liquids]).
    14. Weather Controller (varies): Weather Control (Change Environment, Area Of Effect: Radius), Call Lightning (RKA, Indirect), Wind Gust (Blast, Double Knockback), Thunderclap (Hearing Group Flash, Area Of Effect: Radius), Hailstorm (Blast, Area Of Effect: Radius, Indirect).

    This isn't even the full scope, since it bleeds into Technology, Weaponmaster, Martial Arts, Super-strength[Brick-hybrids], Mentalist, Mysticism variant blasters as well.

    CoH F2P (Pre-Score?):
    Archery <-- Weaponmaster/Tech-related Blaster
    Assault Rifle <-- Weaponmaster/Tech-related Blaster
    Electrical Blast
    Energy Blast
    Fire Blast
    Ice Blast
    Psychic Blast (Issue 12)
    Radiation Blast (Issue 16)
    Sonic Attack

    Champions Online F2P:
    Fire Blast (The Inferno)
    Archery (The Marksman) <-- Weaponmaster/Tech-related Blaster
    Assault Rifle (The Soldier) <-- Weaponmaster/Tech-related Blaster
    Power Armor (The Automaton) <-- Pure Technology-related Blaster

    This is not even covering the lost melee from unarmed:

    CoH F2P Unarmed (Pre-Score?):
    Shadow Punch/Maul (Dark Melee)
    Charged Punch/Brawl (Electric Melee)
    Energy Punch/Barrage (Energy Melee)
    Scorch/Cremate (Fiery Melee)
    Stone Fist (Stone Melee)
    Frozen Fist (Ice Melee)

    Champions Online F2P Unarmed:
    Super-Strength Melee (The Behemoth)
    Martial-Arts Melee (Dragon Spirit)
    CO supposedly has Styles like DCUO, so Fists and Swords/Mallets/whatever in the CoH melee pool would be split off into different style pools.

    Unlike the RPG, both CoH and Champions Online have that ludo-narrative-mechanical dissonance:
    1. You are a Superhero.
    2. Build your Superhero costume.
    3. Get rekt you aren't a superhero you are a skilled normal, whacky math 5~12 characteristics isn't a lot since the stat cap is like ~300. 5~12/300 to x/100 -> 1.5~4 in RPG terms.

    Neverwinter Fields/Sleeping Dragon Bridge leans Neverwinter to be more Superheroic than Simulation MC/Champions HQ of
    Champions Online. We are stuck on the real-life moped of suckage, but they get the Speedracer Mach Five of coolness. You get to use an ultimate on the TUTORIAL BOSS!!

    Equivalent of selecting the Bestial Supernatual, The Predator, then poppin off Feral Rage to beat Black Talon. *wheeze*
  • godhandxiiigodhandxiii Posts: 67 Arc User
    I like JSH's reviews because they're from a newbie's perspective, it gives the viewer an idea of what they'd experience if they're gonna pick up the game. His review made me realize just how different newbies see the early game, in contrast to those of us who just blitz through it. Also made me realize just how janky the new tutorial makes things, compared to how it was back when I started.

    That said, it's kinda disappointing he didn't touch on the Freeform system, since it's the game's main feature. Not even a mention, even when he's talking about the monetization. Was also curious what he would have done if he got to the Nemesis system.
  • Freeform is the main feature?! Here is some old freeform reviews:
    "The ability to mix and match powers from different archetypes provides even more flexibility, but this also opens up the possibility for tremendous imbalances." - IGN

    "For me it was mainly the freeform class system. I have to min/max to some degree. It is a personal issue that I can’t make myself enjoy a character that I know is clearly much less than optimal. So with the freeform system I would be stuck making very similar character builds because those were the best ones. It was a case of more options leading to fewer alternatives." - Tarja

    "All this plasticity is exciting, but as you might reasonably expect, it comes at the expense of balance and effectiveness. Your hero may be wholly original, but the more out-there your concept is, the less fun he or she will be to play." - Gamespot

    "So many 'I win' buttons..its hard to choose
    Some powers and combinations are very overpowered. Expect a nerf to invulnerability and regeneration. In fact, expect a lot of changes to powers as this game matures." - TheBurialGrounds

    "Then there are the problems attached to the lack of a structured class system. On one hand, it can help players create characters more unique to them. On the other hand, it can make things very confusing when you are trying to figure out the best stats and equips to give your character, especially if it has a customized build. It’s all very trial-and-error, and it will have you wanting to go back and use your eight character slots to try and perfect the one hero you want to play as your main" - Destructoid

    "This sheer amount of variation does come with a few problems, though. There are so many variables that it's basically impossible to perfectly balance every single option. While cryptic continues to tweak powers and powersets, there really isn't much they can do about it. A certain degree of imbalance is the price to pay for freedom." - Dualshockers

    "Experimenting on your first play-through is a daunting trip into the unknown. Balance is, unsurprisingly, far from a given, some combinations aren't all that workable, and while you can strip back any decision and redo it, this is pretty expensive. This has caused a lot of anguish among players, particularly those who got used to a bit more flexibility for less cost in the beta testing phase." - Eurogamer on Freeform

    "The second consequence is very much a double-edged sword. The character creator lets you be exactly who you want to be from the start - but MMOs are normally about becoming who you want to be. Although you can unlock special costume pieces through in-game rewards, the chances of these being relevant to your personal vision are slim, and so, visually at least, you're set in stone. You don't get the bragging rights, you don't crave the invisible upgrades half as much, and on your login screen a long-time character is indistinguishable from one born yesterday." -- Eurogamer on Costume Creation // ludo-narrative-mechanical dissonance Easter Egg Here //

    "If you were one of those kids that used to mix sodas at McDonald's, you already have an ingrained knowledge of the intricacies of Champions Online's skill system. Sometimes, you'd stumble upon some wonderful new potion... other times, you wound up with a murky pool of rancid sewage. This is Champions' mix-a-skill system in a nutshell, and if you find a really good concoction, the developers will patch it into murky sewage soon enough. " - Gamespy

    "This is definitely a ballsy move, no doubt about it – giving that much control over your character development assures one of two things. One, there are going to be people who make relatively useless characters, and two, there’ll be people who’re going to combine abilities to make the most obscenely overpowered characters imaginable. " - Darkzero UK

    "There are no paths, templates, classes, or anything of that nature to guide you. The system is very flexible, but it is also extremely easy to ruin your character through a few unfortunate choices. If you do not spend tens of hours studying powers and builds via forums and character builders, you will almost surely make a few level up choices you will regret later." - Brighthub

    "The biggest issue with Champions Online is simple- it's build viability. Though the game espouses this whole concept of customization and making exactly the sort of character each individual player wants to create, everyone gravitates towards a simple, effective build- Tankmages. A tankmage, for the uninitiated to the realm of MMO terminology, are characters with high defense and high offense, capable of handling any number of situations on their own." - Giantbomb

    "One of CO’s claims to fame was be freeform power selection. You could pick any power from any set for your character ala carte. You were not limited by archetypes like you were in COH. ... Even so, with freeform power selection, came nerfing yourself. Not all powers played well together. The archetypes COH had guided players to powers that did play well together." - Ken from Barbie, j/k it's that guy from Chicago!
    This doesn't seem to be a main feature, but more of a main limitation...

    For Example in MATTERS review at 7:08+: "My favorite thing in the game honestly is just building a character not even playing the game."

    Back on Josh Strife Hayes, he talked about passing on the mantle around 43:50+...
    City of Heroes/Champions Online => Ultima, Meridan 59, Lineage, Realms, Darksun, etc
    Detective Comics Universe Online => Asheron's Call, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, Shadowbane, etc
    The next game will be the dawn of the Early Era of Golden Age Superhero MMOs => World of Warcraft, Lineage 2, RuneScape, etc

    However, I don't have any idea why the next Superhero MMO, that brings the Golden Age, would copy City of Heroes or Champions Online. In fact, I see them copying Blizzard's Titan.

    Addition
    https://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/104517-buying-back-champions-video-game-licensing-rights/
    I don't think they should look at Baldur's Gate 3, but rather the potential of Titan w/ Champions IP.

    Some stuff about Titan:
    1. "Titan" would have flipped between a third-person perspective in social areas and a first-person shooter perspective in combat zones, but it sounds as though the social zones offered players a wide variety of activities, letting them hold mundane, everyday jobs when they weren't busy shooting bad guys.

    2a. The main concept was this: you, the player, would maintain a mundane job—butchering, engineering, entrepreneurship—during the day, while waging clandestine warfare against opposing factions at night (or between work hours).
    2b. One potential scenario, described to me by a person who saw the game, might have gone something like this: You’re working for a corporation, helping run a shop, when you’re called for a mission by your faction, so you run into an elevator, switch outfits superhero-style, and go off to fight enemies with a group of friends or allies. Or you can just ignore the combat and keep doing your job, which could mean anything from tinkering with vehicles as a mechanic to running your own business as an entrepreneur.

    3. Classes: Jumper, Ranger, Reaper, Juggernaut, Phoenix, Architect, Assassin, Guardian, Longshot, Spec Ops, Mechanic
    4. Character Customization: Public Identity wear, Tier0 faction costume and looks of The Incredibles[locked ranged of certain sliders/options, person body/artstyle, etc].

    5. If you don't know Titan was largely split into two to those who follow this: Palia for the Social Aspect and Overwatch for the Combat.

    It does in fact tie back to Champions IP as a whole, Champions Complete:
    /[DAY JOBS]
    Superheroes have occupations that take up more of their time than their costumed antics. But most superheroes’ jobs tend to be glamorous, interesting ones. Common examples include: Actor, Architect, Artist/Craftsman, Astronaut, Athlete, Attorney, Businessman, Doctor, Fashion Model, Law Enforcement, Martial Arts Instructor, Millionaire Playboy, Musician, Occultist, Pilot, Private Investigator, Reporter/Journalist, Scientist/Inventor, Secret Agent, Writer. /
    /[JOB INTERFERENCE]
    Regardless of how glamorous or flexible a character’s job is, it should sometimes interfere with his adventuring. A character’s job should be a source of plots, subplots, and campaign color, not just a line on his character sheet. /

    Rather than using Blizzard Classes, Champions IP from Champions Heroes in a Hurry and Champions Begins:
    The Blaster, The Fighter/The Brawler, The Brick, The Martial Artist, The Mentalist, The Mystic, The Speedster, The Techno, The Weapons Master.

    Rather than First Person Shooter, Neverwinter's Third Person or Magic: Legends Isometric would be good enough. //Easter Egg: Look up the game "Superfuse", hint from IGN: "Superfuse Preview: Like a Superhero Diablo Game" //

    There is a blueprint for a good Superhero MMO, just no ones is going to do it except maybe Tencent. Since, they have Ace Force, which is their Overwatch (Titan Phase Crawl/Walk) clone. "Ace Force is an Overwatch Styled game which has been only available in China, and now will be re-rereleased globally as Ace Force 2, and is expected to launch globally in late 2023." They only need to adopt the MMO phase(Titan Phase Run) to get an Ace Force MMO. They already did Tarisland, and the Superhero craze in that part of the world(Korea's Superhero fiction is nuts) has YET to PEAK.

    Currently, the community perceived positives for Champions Online are actually humongous negatives. Again do you guys really want an in-depth review from these reviewers. Rather than I played archetype, the game was fun, has some potential to get better, thus (>6) good score!
  • godhandxiiigodhandxiii Posts: 67 Arc User
    I'm sorry, but for someone who has long-**** posts, you're posting a whole lot of nothing.
  • edited September 2023
    I'm sorry, but for someone who has long-**** posts, you're posting a whole lot of nothing.
    My main point proven. That no one here will care about a major in-depth retrospective/review/analysis.

    Even if lets say Josh went through every Nemesis, every Cosmic, every Lair, every Adventure, every Comic, every Serial, every Alert, every Event, etc. The sheer grating force of the toxic game design/flow, would probably make him quit. If he doesn't quit the review/retrospective/analysis, it would definitely become less and less hopeful/positive/etc. It will be deemed not worthy and thus be ignored.

    I regularly re-watch E3 2003 -> MxM (Tyrant as Statesmen). It really makes me want to play City of Heroes over Champions Online. As that game overall is still a better Champions game. But, I ate my wallet and will continue to be here for Champions Online instead. // ViDoc on Lore is really good for CoH, which there is none on CO //

    Cryptic Studios definitely can make good games. Just look at the spiritual successor of Aliens: Online(Mythic Entertainment) that Cold Iron Studios just recently released. [Note: this is a joke that was not meant to be funny]
    Post edited by mysterygrayleaf#8549 on
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,428 Arc User
    Some how I survived the poor game design and have been enjoying it for 10+ years now. Different tastes and all.​​
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • I also technically survived. I have been playing on and off since for sure August 2009, and been a member since: 09/10/2008. Champions Online is still my most played game. At some level, I enjoy it, but it has a bunch of quit moments.

    However, I am not going to defend a game that faltered at launch and thus regressed from City of Heroes. Cryptic 1.x -> Cryptic 2.x was a huge downgrade on Superhero.

    It is unlikely that any major influx of new players will come and stay w/o fixing the underlying systems. In this case, it is more likely to be Final Fantasy 14's 1.0-1.23b to 2.0 rather than Neverwinter's 4e to 5e.
    -- "[We’ve done a better job of mapping the classes to what you would find in 5th Edition rules. In 2021, we’re doing a better level of mapping to the tabletop leveling. We want people to play the tabletop version and then go, 'Hey, let me try this in a video game,' and feel comfortable in that space.]"
    -- "To that point, Cryptic has simplified Neverwinter's leveling system from 80 levels down to the same 20-level power trajectory of the tabletop game. Jewel of the North features a revamped tutorial system with an emphasis on quickly educating players about their class, rather than a more gradual, grind-heavy experience that is a common pitfalls of MMORPGs. By focusing on bringing new players up to speed, adventurers can quickly take part in the game's endgame content."
    https://gamerant.com/neverwinter-cryptic-studios-interview-dungeons-and-dragons-4th-edition-5e/

    Hopefully, in this era with Cryptic 3.x we will get a really good Champions Online, 2nd Edition. Then, enjoy it even more than before.

  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 767 Arc User
    All of the ATs are gimped, dogshit trash. They're just free trial mode. They give a terrible experience to play when you first start off - being completely gimped of pretty much everything. I would never even begin to recommend CO to someone that didn't get an FF slot to begin with. Even then, it's a nightmare trying to get them even /REMOTELY/ caught up w/everything, especially over a decade of costumes so that they can make use of the appearance creator. And everything is very expensive, definitely not something most noobs would just buy into straight away.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,028 Arc User
    Already better video than NerdSlayer's video on CO
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • nbkxs wrote: »
    All of the ATs are gimped, dogshit trash. They're just free trial mode. They give a terrible experience to play when you first start off - being completely gimped of pretty much everything. I would never even begin to recommend CO to someone that didn't get an FF slot to begin with. Even then, it's a nightmare trying to get them even /REMOTELY/ caught up w/everything, especially over a decade of costumes so that they can make use of the appearance creator. And everything is very expensive, definitely not something most noobs would just buy into straight away.
    Ultimately, the game is built for archetypes do to its world of warcraft(Early)/perfect world(Current) clone nature. ATs gets rid of the trial and error waste of time from constantly correcting a build. Especially, when most of the easy-to-do META cosmic/lair builds are just F2P ATs.
    ~~~~
    The freeform slot is hot garbage trash given what the RPG provides.

    What we have isn't really freeform as we don't have a power tailor to select visuals/effects of powers.

    With Champions RPG thus Champions Online should be aiming for:
    "The Hero System(inc. Champions RPG) rules only define an ability's very basic mechanical effects—the player is the one who defines what the ability looks like when used."

    "Rather than offering a menu of specific powers, Champions powers are defined by their effects. (An energy blast is the same power regardless of whether it represents a laser beam, ice powers, or mystical spells.) The Champions rulebook includes rules governing many different types of generic powers which can then be modified to fit a player's idea."

    Not only can we control our appearance, we can also control our powers appearance and their EFFECTS. Or at least that is what should have happened.

    Instant these answers were stated, Champions Online was a sinking ship/DoA:
    "In the Champions pen-and-paper RPG, one doesn't create a Fire Blast. A player instead starts with the generic Energy Blast power and then adds Power Advantages and Limitations to it. There's a ton of tweaking that could be done during this step to get a power "just right." In Champions Online, a player selects a Fire Blast with some predetermined effects. Following the familiar theme, fire has an additional DoT (damage over time) component." - JE/J

    "Currently, we would rather have more unique powers for players to choose from than to have fewer powers with different animations." - RM/A

    Having simple mutable skin-less powers should mean it only needs to be balanced once.

    FF is basically just AT's remixed, why spend money to fix something perpetually broken. Ice will always have "Chill" that does that ice prison/cage thing even though the RPG (Until Database 5th/Powers 6th) has examples like:
    Wind: "Hardened Air"
    Force: "Force Shackles"
    Fire: "Fly in the Amber"
    Electric: "Current Paralysis"
    Earth: "Stony Prison"
    Darkness: "Dark Chains"
    Wood/Plant: "Sticky Sap" / "Tangling Growth"
    Insect: "Webs"
    Body Control: "Seizure Induction"
    Gravity: "Too heavy to move"
    Dimensional: "Dimensional trap"
    Emotion: "Crippling Depression"
    Luck: "Unfortunate Imprisonment"
    Magnetic(Metal sub-component): "Metallic Wrap-up"
    etc.
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 767 Arc User
    The issue is that the ATs are all gimped, or hamstringed in some critical fashion, baring maybe only the magical one being remotely 1/2 decent. The specs/SS choices are always wrong. They have 2 less powers, and that alone is terrible for fitting everything you need. Most of them also have the 'choice lvls' force you to pick between two things that are both almost mandatory for a proper build. And on most of them this 'choose one gimping' happens more than once on each AT. Or they give you two options that are both garbage, and would rather not have either one.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • edited November 2023
    nbkxs wrote: »
    The issue is that the ATs are all gimped, or hamstringed in some critical fashion, baring maybe only the magical one being remotely 1/2 decent. The specs/SS choices are always wrong. They have 2 less powers, and that alone is terrible for fitting everything you need. Most of them also have the 'choice lvls' force you to pick between two things that are both almost mandatory for a proper build. And on most of them this 'choose one gimping' happens more than once on each AT. Or they give you two options that are both garbage, and would rather not have either one.
    This is par the course for Fantasy MMOs. The QoL aspect is generally showcasing "Difficulty" for expected skill needed to negate design.

    As far as I can find the low Difficulty meta is:
    The Behemoth
    The Soldier
    The Mind
    Melee DPS lowest diff is premium'd.

    Anything else has a higher difficulty. "Fit into only one of these roles and party up with your fellow adventurers" - Champions Online mechanical design. Which sucks, I absolute hate this design. I still can't believe Cryptic messed up a mainline Champions game coming from City of Heroes.

    ~~~
    Almost every major new (contemporary) Fantasy MMO is leaning towards Freeform/Multi-role or I-frames w/ ARPG (so everyone is a dodge tank). So, I'm waiting for the latest CEO to do something. Maybe a nice announcement like a Champions Online Remake.

    Champions stuff;
    1st Gen Cryptic (Self -> NCSoft):
    A really cool Champions RPG-inspired MMORPG.

    2nd Gen Cryptic (2K -> Infogrames/Atari[2nd gen officially starts here] -> PWE):
    +A Champions IP Thing but now it's a really bad World of Warcraft, Everquest, and Perfect World; clone w/ Superpowers.
    -No longer really Champions RPG-inspired.

    3rd Gen Cryptic (Embracer/Gearbox -> Embracer/DECA Games):
    No news...
    I don't see any Fantasy IP competing against the WoW triple expansion + WoW2 total-world-phasing, Perfect New World (formally, Perfect World Remake), Throne & Liberty, Blue Protocol, New World, next ArenaNet thing "an established online fantasy IP", how many titles do I need to list for Fantasy to be oversaturated?! Sci-Fi is easy to fail and I doubt they want to compete against whatever EVE and Star Citizen, etc is doing. The only option that is under-saturated in a 3D MMORPG-type is Superhero.

    Meanwhile, we have yet to get a Champions 4th-6th style comic. With these basically being based off Champions 1st-3rd Editions: Champions(Eclipse)/League of Champions(Heroic Publishing). Better this, than another spectacular Marvel failure.
    Post edited by mysterygrayleaf#8549 on
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,028 Arc User
    edited November 2023
    I'm going to write my thoughts here because the YT comment section is full of REMEMBER BERRIES type of comments which are getting on my nerves on how repetitive they are! Don't think Josh will revisit CO anyway for him to read my comment!
    Take a shot every type of comment going "I REMEMBER PLAYING THIS GAME", Alcohol poisoning

    I finally watched fully the video after going back and forth, because you know... it's hard to watch someone playing a game for 10 hours when yourself have been playing this game for 13 years :dizzy:

    And I'm a fan of Josh's video series of "Worst MMO", funnily I'm watching them during Long CO playing sessions! A lot of Hidden gems of games!

    Very impressed that Josh went into CO without his negative experience with NWO which he made an entire video about how P2W it is!
    That's pretty Positive think compared to Nerdslayer who just condemned the game just because it was a Cryptic game :+1:


    JOSH! JOSH DONT DO THAT! JOOOOOSH

    Don't pick Flight on a MELEE character!

    RANK 1 FLIGHT THE ENTIRE VIDEO? This alone took 10 hours of your play time

    "Powerhouse is an outdated mechanic when you can level up and skill up everywhere?"
    OH NO
    I still don't get his distaste for the video tutorials in the PW!
    I believe he didn't realize the Tutorial was an Epilogue

    His view on the Star system and defiance of having to buy star refills was pretty funny. If only he new losing stars for dying is just a small penalty which is not even that important

    If only he knew how useless Fusion is and the game used to have an actual Crafting system

    JOSH! NO JOSH SERPENT LANTERN ISN'T DESIGNED FOR LOW LEVEL! JOSH! JOOOOOOSH

    Going back and forth from Westside to Cybermind to Alerts to Serpent Lantern to Westside again gave me Wisplash :dizzy:

    Kinda sad he didn't even got to level 20!

    I'm really happy he came across players like me, who continue playing the game because they fully enjoy the Costumization aspect!
    Now if only he brought Freeform instead of Archetypes

    Not finding information for the game is pretty sad, We had 2 Player-run wikies and now they are both gone :pensive:
    I wonder if he checked the forums 🤔
    Post edited by avianos on
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • sapphiechusapphiechu Posts: 259 Arc User
    JOSH! JOSH DONT DO THAT! JOOOOOSH!
    I was right there with you, but at the same time, how is he supposed to know any of these things when it's not clearly marked or even gated? I don't know if he did any Alerts. Did he ever actually block? Compared to a lot of other games made at the same time, CO does at least have functional block mechanics, along with some interesting benefits from doing so. I do think the Qularr (I can never remember where the apostrophe goes) invasion is one of the better tutorials, as it feels like you're making a difference, as little as it might be. Someone's got to push the big red button and send Ironpants up as a living bullet, so why not you?

    Yes, I was having conniptions the moment I saw him pick flight on his melee character. I am of the firm belief that EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER should take Athletics as their first travel power. I don't care if your melee, ranged, mixed, harsh language: Athletics first (or if you want to look like a twit, Acrobatics, but some people actually like the Naruto-run). Even at level one, you have decent movement speed before the warm-up, can jump over obstructions like cars and other players/NPCs, and most importantly, can close the distance between yourself and the mook you just haymakered halfway across the damn fight-area. (PSA: For the love of all that is holy, stop taking haymaker and/or using it during alerts!)

    At the end of the video, I got the feeling that Josh did enjoy his play-time, and knowing the dross he's played in the past, both ancient and modern, Champions came away looking pretty good, all things considered.
    3856039c53d222b47efa23bc56b3c976ccefd059.jpg
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,028 Arc User
    edited November 2023
    sapphiechu wrote: »
    Yes, I was having conniptions the moment I saw him pick flight on his melee character. I am of the firm belief that EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER should take Athletics as their first travel power. I don't care if your melee, ranged, mixed, harsh language: Athletics first (or if you want to look like a twit, Acrobatics, but some people actually like the Naruto-run). Even at level one, you have decent movement speed before the warm-up, can jump over obstructions like cars and other players/NPCs, and most importantly, can close the distance between yourself and the mook you just haymakered halfway across the damn fight-area. (PSA: For the love of all that is holy, stop taking haymaker and/or using it during alerts!)
    I'm with you! The majority of my characters use Super Speed and Athletics as their Travel powers, with only 5 using Flights (and all of them are RANGE)

    Josh mentioned that people warned him that picking the Dragon Spirit AT is a Beginners trap because its a Hybrid
    but the true newbie trap was picking Flight as Melee!

    Rank 1 Flight for 10 Hours :weary:
    emoji.gif
    sapphiechu wrote: »
    I was right there with you, but at the same time, how is he supposed to know any of these things when it's not clearly marked or even gated?
    The Socrates Mission for the Cybermind Mission was the first trap! It really sidetracked him and he somehow ended up finding about Serpent Laternt

    This mission is not for fresh, I only do it when i reach at least lvl 15+ or just straight up finishing Westside! Socrates is sending you to your death

    I know westside is boring, but if he sticked with it until the end instead of jumping on Cybermind and Serpent Lantern, he could cover a lot of his AT's tracks
    sapphiechu wrote: »
    I don't know if he did any Alerts.
    He did! 2-3 alerts
    When he reached lvl 10 in westside he mentioned a UI Box appeared which brings him to a Mission Lair
    At the end of the video he mentioned he started feeling dragged down on alerts because despite he was sidekicked to lvl 30, he felt useless! (He was missing so many of his Archetype's powers)

    now, interesting calling the regular alerts lairs, since their difficulty is pretty casual! Technically yeah they are lairs

    Stitch in Time, where unfortunately he died and asked in chat for REZ, but nobody revived him or replied!
    Then he mention nobody talked during the entire alert neither stick around for chit chat

    Now that made me sad
    oh Josh... those alerts exist only to do the Dailies, get resources and the respectful resource boost

    This reminded me of a different MMO he played (don't remember which one) where he QUEUED for team version of a Dungeon, but the Team Up started speed-running STRAIGHT to the final boss, without caring about fighting the mobs and living him behind!
    Imagine if we didn't have MOB-gate on alerts and this happened to him here as well! (old Warlord comes in mind...)
    sapphiechu wrote: »
    Did he ever actually block? Compared to a lot of other games made at the same time, CO does at least have functional block mechanics, along with some interesting benefits from doing so. I do think the Qularr (I can never remember where the apostrophe goes) invasion is one of the better tutorials, as it feels like you're making a difference, as little as it might be. Someone's got to push the big red button and send Ironpants up as a living bullet, so why not you?

    Good question, can't tell if he utilized the block function mentioned it on tutorial!

    Funnily the BLOCK tutorial was for the Qularr EGG BOMBS! He thought flying Qularr drone where part of the tutorial! Those were fighting the policemen and were dead once he got near them :grimace:

    Did he utilized his LUNGE?
    sapphiechu wrote: »
    At the end of the video, I got the feeling that Josh did enjoy his play-time, and knowing the dross he's played in the past, both ancient and modern, Champions came away looking pretty good, all things considered.
    True true, the game gave him a positive first impression, but I wish he avoided some of things that dragged his experience down
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • edited November 2023
    avianos wrote: »
    ... Stitch in Time, where unfortunately he died and asked in chat for REZ, but nobody revived him or replied!
    ....
    Then he mention nobody talked during the entire alert neither stick around for chit chat
    This reminded me of a different MMO he played (don't remember which one) where he QUEUED for team version of a Dungeon, but the Team Up started speed-running STRAIGHT to the final boss, without caring about fighting the mobs and living him behind!
    Imagine if we didn't have MOB-gate on alerts and this happened to him here as well! (old Warlord comes in mind...)
    ....
    This is actually pretty common across games with instants, alerts, random dungeons, etc

    Time chatting/socializing is time wasted from getting to the next easy event. Even, if there is a mob-gate it doesn't really stop a peak threat META tank from gathering all mobs. Then, solo'ing the whole alert by themselves only needing additional DPS for alert boss.

    It comes with the course of combat as sole focus in bog-standard MMOs. They live with the combat system and die by the combat system. Once content becomes tedious, boring, burnout-inducing; droning through content is the META.

    ~~~~
    If only there was a solution of constant Hot, Hot, Hot gameplay like...
    EverQuest's Gems
    STO's Dabo/Asteroid Mining // NWO's Sahha Ball
    WoW's Pet Battles
    GW2's Bell choir ensemble
    LOTRO's Freeze Tag
    FFXIV's Triple Triad
    We already have racing component like EQ2's Aether racing via the current event.
    Plus many other style of "mini-games" ...

    A couple Superhero systems actually have MMO flags for these:
    GURPS: "Other supers can have jobs that don’t involve fighting any-one at all. Not all gifts are best suited to violence, and not everyone with powers wants to spend their time fighting other supers"
    Champions 6th: "Superheroes have occupations that take up more of their time than their costumed antics. But most superheroes’ jobs tend to be glamorous, interesting ones."

    Champions Online desperately needs a Day Job/Secret Identity system. To give players a Cold -> Hot -> Cold, so on style of gameplay. That must always be available and not tied to an event.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,028 Arc User
    edited November 2023
    Been Bing watching his videos again! THANKS GOD we are not like FLYFF online
    This is actually pretty common across games with instants, alerts, random dungeons, etc

    Time chatting/socializing is time wasted from getting to the next easy event. Even, if there is a mob-gate it doesn't really stop a peak threat META tank from gathering all mobs. Then, solo'ing the whole alert by themselves only needing additional DPS for alert boss.

    It comes with the course of combat as sole focus in bog-standard MMOs. They live with the combat system and die by the combat system. Once content becomes tedious, boring, burnout-inducing; droning through content is the META.
    Those alerts farming has become a repetitive chore for us after all! Alerts are nothing more than Disposable content!

    Its most likely you gonna socialize and chit chat with friends if you do endgame lairs, than casual alerts with randos!


    I still feel bad for him, not everyone is gonna have a Resurrection power, I used to have on my FF dps characters as an extra help, but even since I shifted into doing Solo content in QWZ I dropped it
    Post edited by avianos on
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,428 Arc User
    Champions Online desperately needs a Day Job/Secret Identity system. To give players a Cold -> Hot -> Cold, so on style of gameplay. That must always be available and not tied to an event.

    I would really hope that the devs don't waste time on something like this. Not at all of interest to me. There are far more pressing things the game needs (like more devs creating/revamping things and more players spending money on it).​​
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • areeeareee Posts: 823 Arc User
    I know alot of you consider FF to be bad. I enjoy it since I can make a pure summoner build which no power set does. Just the 3 robots on inventor.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,028 Arc User
    edited December 2023
    I'm really happy he came across players like me, who continue playing the game because they fully enjoy the Costumization aspect!
    [Dubious 3d party Links DO NOT CLICK]
    [Dubious 3d party Links DO NOT CLICK]
    BEGONE BOT!
    And take your Clickbait maleware links with you

    This is a the second time a SPAM bot copied what I said to blend in with the forums
    Ban.gif
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,028 Arc User
    edited December 2023
    Well since I'm posting again!
    Big Kudos to Josh for complimenting the CO's graphic art style that holds up years later! :+1:

    He knows what's up! Instead of being obsessed with Hyper Realistic Graphics with shades of Grey and Brown like a lot of Modern videogame companies are doing these days unfortunately!

    As someone who grew up playing a lot of Cel-shaded and 2D pixel art games, feels good that there are still people who appreciate creative graphics instead of being a Graphic Junkies!
    I HATE "All videogames need to have top notch Hyper-realistic graphics" Elitist snobs! This keeps the artstyle and make games blend together
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • jarfarujarfaru Posts: 91 Arc User
    nbkxs wrote: »
    All of the ATs are gimped, dogshit trash. They're just free trial mode. They give a terrible experience to play when you first start off - being completely gimped of pretty much everything. I would never even begin to recommend CO to someone that didn't get an FF slot to begin with. Even then, it's a nightmare trying to get them even /REMOTELY/ caught up w/everything, especially over a decade of costumes so that they can make use of the appearance creator. And everything is very expensive, definitely not something most noobs would just buy into straight away.

    This 100%
    And the people replying saying it doesn't matter are just JSH fanboys. I get sick and tired of people always defending his half **** reviews. If his reviews are for the new player experience then all his videos should say so but they don't.
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 923 Arc User
    areee wrote: »
    I know alot of you consider FF to be bad. I enjoy it since I can make a pure summoner build which no power set does. Just the 3 robots on inventor.

    Uh.. what? How can free form be bad? No one thinks this. Please stop posting, you make no sense.

  • vonqball wrote: »
    areee wrote: »
    I know alot of you consider FF to be bad. I enjoy it since I can make a pure summoner build which no power set does. Just the 3 robots on inventor.

    Uh.. what? How can free form be bad? No one thinks this. Please stop posting, you make no sense.
    Freeform is bad because it is paired with archetypes. If the archetypes didn't exist it wouldn't be bad. However, the archetypes do exist and have controlled the powers we got. As well as the optimal usage of those powers. The opposite is also true, because Freefrom exists, archetypes can't be as good as they can be.

    The game feels like it was never built for real freeform or we would be going to a Power Tailor for power creation.

    Example;
    Slot 1:
    Mechanic: Energy Builder
    Sub-mechanic: {to be selected}
    Visual style: {to be selected}
    Sub-visual style: {variant of visual style, if Ice was selected, this might be like Snowballs, etc}

    Slot 2:
    Mechanic: {to be selected}
    Sub-mechanic: {to be selected}
    Visual style: {to be selected}
    Sub-visual style: {variant of visual style, if Ice was selected, this might be like Snowballs, etc}

    In essence, everything wrong with AT&FF is that Cryptic went backwards from this:
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/champions-online/news/detail/1047530-evolution-of-game-design%253A-rethinking-archetypes

    Cryptic generally has two paths:
    Make the game more archetype-slanted like Neverwinter.
    Make the game more freeform-slanted like Champions RPG.

    As these two designs can not co-exist as each one makes the other worse off.

    ...
    However, I don't think Champions Online will ever recover from MoistCr1tikal saying "Champions Online .... but it was bad. I hated Champions Online".
  • servantrulesservantrules Posts: 312 Arc User
    avianos wrote: »
    Well since I'm posting again!
    Big Kudos to Josh for complimenting the CO's graphic art style that holds up years later! :+1:

    He knows what's up! Instead of being obsessed with Hyper Realistic Graphics with shades of Grey and Brown like a lot of Modern videogame companies are doing these days unfortunately!

    As someone who grew up playing a lot of Cel-shaded and 2D pixel art games, feels good that there are still people who appreciate creative graphics instead of being a Graphic Junkies!
    I HATE "All videogames need to have top notch Hyper-realistic graphics" Elitist snobs! This keeps the artstyle and make games blend together

    Funny thing is, Champions Online's "look" will age better than the so-called "better" graphics of current and future MMOs who think graphics will do the heavy lifting in keeping a game alive.
  • > @tomqq said:
    > As kinda new player that started at january of 2022 and still playing Hayes in his review was accurate on the perspective of a new player.
    >
    > When i started and thanks to a friend that i played and level together as Radiant (horrible dps slow progress) i didnt suffer much. The tutorial invasion is agreat way and i like it, even the videos on Powerhouse are nice and explain basic stuuf good but after that you get thrown to a jungle in the middle of amazon and you expect to swim. If i ddint had my 2 friends here it will be a horrible thing to learn and discover basic stuff that all other people know by now after 10lvl and up.
    >
    > Funny enouph the ingame tutorial is prety good but its hidden and all is in text.
    > IF the game had a nice web page tutorial and explained stuff there and i didnt had to run to a wall to find out would be great , also gear dropping is horrible as new player .... Radiant getting str or recovery stuff ye awesome isnt it.
    > One of the things i liked is doing events (Nightmare was my 1st one) was easy to score and complete even as 20lvl but again if i didnt had 2 friends il be lost on the quests which i never knew where to pick :(
    >
    > So for me the most important thing is a proper tutorial for new players to guide them on their first steps of their character and if they like the game they can stay and throw money else they will gone before that it happens (i dislike other stuff in the game but isnt this thread for that).

    New'ish player here too. I absolutely agree with you on the gear side of things. So many drops, but it's rare that I get something that has my primary or secondary stats. Maybe I've just been really unlucky? I'm loving it so far. I had a few false starts with non-FF builds until I found something that gelled.
  • locochoco#7652 locochoco Posts: 328 Arc User
    edited February 4
    sapphiechu wrote: »
    It is certainly a dopey move on Cryptic's part. Almost like they don't want lifetime subs…

    If you really unpack that logic, it suggests they feel or data has shown through analysis, that the average player at a given stage of their lifespan as a player, does not read those benefits and say, "Shut up and take my money."

    Perhaps they want to remove that process of weighing the benefits against the cost, so that when someone decides they want it, for whatever reason, they just commit and find out what the bonus perks are, later.

    This type of thing could greatly improve impulse buys among newer players, who they really do need to double down in every aspect of the game, get their comic book and RP friends on deck.

    The problem they simply refuse to accept (whether they have arrived here yet or not), probably out of some respect for the past, or an inability to know how or where to start, is that when the average person who likes super heroes and comics, plays CO for the first time, they can't get passed the aesthetic of basically every single NPC character in the entire game, front to back, no exceptions. Everyone, everywhere, in every way possible, looks horrible. Of course I'm being hyperbolic so that anyone reading will understand... I know you don't mind 40% of them, but 90% of people won't, because they are poorly tossed together, being very mindful to never use or do too much so that the the costume library never stagnates so that no matter what you make, they look like or "rip off" some NPC in-world. But that has serious, serious impact on player reception. I know this, 100% because my attempts to get my super hero zealots friends on have all proven it. First thing is always, "What about DCUO? Is that still online?" And I have to explain how CO is literally everything DCUO couldn't have dreamed of being.

    Gearbox needs to send a small team through the entire game, forcing them to see NPC after NPC and compare those drafts to player costumes using the same costume library until they all realize, "Our world looks like total, absolute bunk...but we can 150% fix any of it."

    I can get my people through the AT selection menu, where you can see the heavily visible cringe wrench their facial expression like melting wax. I just say "don't mind those at all, they made them absolute unbearable crap so you'd have to use the huge costume maker."

    That works. But when they get to westside and see not only the NPCs, but the enemies they have to grind, it's like "Yeeeeeah...I'll play Spiderman on console, bro."
    Post edited by locochoco#7652 on
  • omega2764omega2764 Posts: 36 Arc User
    jarfaru wrote: »
    Every time someone does a review video about this game its not with a freeform character so I think his review and others are lacking the heart of the game. Their reviews are meaningless to me.

    I found his review of Champions to be a major fail. And his review of Neverwinter to totally miss the rampant problems NWO has and how Cryptic does not handle them.

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