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The Unofficial Underperforming Powers Thread

panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 278 Arc User
edited December 2021 in Champions Online Discussion
Hi!

I think it's pretty clear that depite numerous reworks, balance among powersets is still pretty far from reality. While obviously there are still many more powerset reworks to go, there are a lot of individual powers that fall FAR behind and could desperately use some individual attention. This could be because of damage calculation or scaling bugs, or that it simply hasn't been properly updated for the modern game. The purpose of this thread is to highlight these problematic powers and discuss ideas of how they can be brought up to balance without needing a full rework of the set.

The intention of this thread is not to point out which powersets have not been reworked yet. This thread is meant for individual powers that could use some sort of buff or change to bring them close to par. Unreworked sets may have a lot of these, but for the purpose of this discussion, I'll be focusing on the worst offenders of each set so that they can be addressed more immediately.
  • Ego Blade Breach - The intention of this power is pretty clear. Since the TK rework, it's been relegated to being a refresh power, which normally would be understandable. However, given that TK blades are one of, if not the easiest sets to use the combo and get your stacks, the concept of a refresh power is pretty moot. The damage and utility doesn't make up for this fact, so this power really doesn't see much use anymore. It could use a boost in damage or some other bit of utility to give it purpose.
  • Sniper Rifle - Sniper Rifle has struggled to find its place in the game for a long time. Given the fast paced, dangerous nature of endgame, a power where any bit of damage cancels your attack just doesn't work in most situations. This power needs to be updated for the quick combative nature of the game, or have its damage increased significantly to make up for its inaccessibility.
  • Faultline - Actually does less damage than the blast attack of the earth set. Yes. Really. Even when you take into account stacking stagger (if you could even reliably do that) it wouldn't match its companion powers in the same tier, like gigabolt or typhoon. This power should reflect the damage of those powers and serve as Earth's reliable nuke power. The base damage of this power needs to be increased significantly, and the stagger rupture should either provide enough damage to put it in line with Gigabolt and Typhoon, or removed and have its damage buffed until the Earth set can be properly reworked. Without faultline, this set massively lacks appropriate AoE to make it compete with other sets!
  • Explosive Arrow - This power didn't fare too well in the archery revamp. While its damage matches Torrent of Arrows (which is a pretty well-balanced power, torrent of arrows is a large cone AoE. Explosive arrow has a tiny 10ft sphere. That's a pretty blatant mismatch, and the advantage doesn't provide ANYWHERE near enough damage to make up for the delay, making it all but pointless. This power needs either more utility or a rework, and the advantage needs to provide enough damage to make the delay worth using.
  • Personal Force Field - This one is pretty obvious. Compared to the other defensive passives, PFF cannot sustain itself in endgame at all. There isn't any good way to replenish the shield beyond field surge, and it can't sustain big hits enough to make it useful for the high damage outputs of endgame. This power needs a complete overhaul, desperately.
  • Mind Link - This power doesn't work. Period. It just doesn't work as intended. The scaling, the damage. It's overly complicated and it doesn't function as intended. This power needs to be simplified and made to be the proper telepathy ultimate we've always wanted. Reflective damage can be hard to balance, but anything would be better than the current state of this power.
  • Shadow Eruption - While Shadow Eruption has quite a lot of use as a utility, the base damage of this power is surprisingly low. When you compare it to energy wave, its closest counterpart that's also underwhelming, it still does less damage. As one of the few charging powers in an otherwise strong set, this power stands out for just feeling weak.
  • Feral Rage - I'm still trying to find a use for this power. It's an ultimate that increases your damage about as much as an active offense (if not less at times), and lets you heal a bit for each bleed stack on each target you hit. While this sounds pretty reasonable on... maybe a bestial offtank spamming frenzy, it's not worth the tremendous downsides of taking up an active offense, active defense, and ultimate slot, AND removing your enrage stacks. I haven't seen anyone able to make use of this power, and it feels like the least effective power in an otherwise very strong set. (If you've managed to make this power feel useful, please teach me your ways!)
  • Curse - This is a stun. That's it. Not only that, it only stuns the primary target unless the secondary targets are poisoned. There are other powers that are far more effective than this for CC, deal more damage, and can match or pass its utility, despite the nice advantages it has. Out of all the powers in Infernal Supernatural, this one just feels bad, and could use some love. Make it a better CC power (either by giving it a charge and making it a paralyze/stun based on poison, or increase the base damage.
  • Magician's Dust - This could make for a threat wipe much like cower or smoke bomb, but for some reason it's a placate? It's a strange choice and it makes it inferior to the other mentioned similar powers.
  • Holy Water - Not only is the heal puny, the advantages and utility aren't practical or helpful.
  • Tiger's Bite - This power is basically just inferior to Dragon's Claws. It's something of an alternative if you don't have crits, but it's just straight up less damage, less useful, and requires shred to get even close to competitive, which dragon claws can utilize without having to consume.
  • Orbital Cannon - Frankly almost every power in gadgets could be on this list. Orbital cannon does mild damage for its long charge up and delayed hit. It's not worth the time when you compare it to other powers, and really deserves more for what was basically a proto-ultimate back in the day. Either make this power an ultimate with proper damage, or rework it to be more useful.
  • Skullcrusher - God please, let there be some alternate universe out there where this power feels as good as it looks. This is one of my favorite powers, and the damage, AoE range, and utility are all mediocre. Skewer's damage greatly exceeds it as its partner power, and even that could be considered underwhelming. Please do something to make Skullcrusher as fun as it looks!
  • Twister - Another cool power with vastly better performing CC alternatives. Give it damage, make it AoE, just do something for the poor thing.
  • Thunderstrike - This power has some utility, but given that ball lightning can make this set pretty brainless, this power never gets used. Consider something extra to spice up the power, even increasing the damage advantage on held targets. It could make it into a fun combo power if nothing else.
  • Snowstorm - This power doesn't really compare to its similar counterparts. Whirlwind and Ebon Rift each do superior damage and have better utility in their pull. Snowstorm isn't worth the hassle of maintaining it for the lackluster damage and chill you get. Buff the damage or give it some extra utility or flair.

I tried to highlight the powers I'd most like to see updated in each set. I might add more later. Feel free to share your thoughts!

Comments

  • alexofspades#2085 alexofspades Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Most of these, if not all, are quick fixes. No complete powerset rework is needed - just a quick touch up of the numbers would go a long way.

    A lot of powers were designed when the game was different - no endgame, just adventure packs and basic open missions. The game then was balanced around this, but Kaiserin's effort to implement a tangible endgame (TT, cosmics) caused a lot of powers to become obsolete... designed around an older game.

    I hope these get buffed to match the current game's content design!
    ERgLqqC.png
  • gentlegiantvexxgentlegiantvexx Posts: 311 Community Moderator
    I can side with Sniper Rifle, Orbital Cannon, Fault Line, Holy Water, PFF, and Mind link.
    From a much broader perspective of other occasions that aren't overall DPS role Based, the rest I feel are fine.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,825 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    Hi!

    The intention of this thread is not to point out which powersets have not been reworked yet. This thread is meant for individual powers that could use some sort of buff or change to bring them close to par. Unreworked sets may have a lot of these, but for the purpose of this discussion, I'll be focusing on the worst offenders of each set so that they can be addressed more immediately.

    [*] Ego Blade Breach - The intention of this power is pretty clear. Since the TK rework, it's been relegated to being a refresh power, which normally would be understandable. However, given that TK blades are one of, if not the easiest sets to use the combo and get your stacks, the concept of a refresh power is pretty moot. The damage and utility doesn't make up for this fact, so this power really doesn't see much use anymore. It could use a boost in damage or some other bit of utility to give it purpose.

    Whilst I agree that this power has been a bit shoved to the side. I think if anything Domineering Will could be baked into the power's base function, but that would just make it a weird version of "Ego Blade Astonish".

    I do think the advantage for Stress refresh makes up for it's revised situation. I'd prefer if it was baked in but a refresh isn't always necessary on a build.
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Sniper Rifle - Sniper Rifle has struggled to find its place in the game for a long time. Given the fast paced, dangerous nature of endgame, a power where any bit of damage cancels your attack just doesn't work in most situations. This power needs to be updated for the quick combative nature of the game, or have its damage increased significantly to make up for its inaccessibility.

    Sniper Rifle could use a buff, but I am concerned that any sort of buff to the power would mean losing its current range, which is the longest in game for player build powers.

    There was a suggestion on Discord that was posted that seemed like it would be an excellent trade off.

    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Faultline - Actually does less damage than the blast attack of the earth set. Yes. Really. Even when you take into account stacking stagger (if you could even reliably do that) it wouldn't match its companion powers in the same tier, like gigabolt or typhoon. This power should reflect the damage of those powers and serve as Earth's reliable nuke power. The base damage of this power needs to be increased significantly, and the stagger rupture should either provide enough damage to put it in line with Gigabolt and Typhoon, or removed and have its damage buffed until the Earth set can be properly reworked. Without faultline, this set massively lacks appropriate AoE to make it compete with other sets!

    So I've had another look at Faultline, and I get the impression its cost would have to be dramatically recalculated, as would the charge time and quite a few other things, to force it to be a "Gigabolt" or "Typhoon" within the Earth set.

    If it wasn't too challenging to do, I'd support it being Earth's answer to "Gigabolt" or "Typhoon" but I'd want to see its range increased to 100ft.

    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Explosive Arrow - This power didn't fare too well in the archery revamp. While its damage matches Torrent of Arrows (which is a pretty well-balanced power, torrent of arrows is a large cone AoE. Explosive arrow has a tiny 10ft sphere. That's a pretty blatant mismatch, and the advantage doesn't provide ANYWHERE near enough damage to make up for the delay, making it all but pointless. This power needs either more utility or a rework, and the advantage needs to provide enough damage to make the delay worth using.

    I didn't suggest this at the time, but I always felt like Explosive Arrow could have had a special interaction with Armor Piercing, so it had a chain detonation effect for multiple enemies affected by Armor Piercing, kinda like ricochet damage or something.

    Or perhaps simply refreshed Armor Piercing after exploding and applied Clinging Flames.
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Personal Force Field - This one is pretty obvious. Compared to the other defensive passives, PFF cannot sustain itself in endgame at all. There isn't any good way to replenish the shield beyond field surge, and it can't sustain big hits enough to make it useful for the high damage outputs of endgame. This power needs a complete overhaul, desperately.

    I've been singing this song since well, quite literally forever so all I can respond with is:

    maybeeeee-try.gif


    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Mind Link - This power doesn't work. Period. It just doesn't work as intended. The scaling, the damage. It's overly complicated and it doesn't function as intended. This power needs to be simplified and made to be the proper telepathy ultimate we've always wanted. Reflective damage can be hard to balance, but anything would be better than the current state of this power.

    Mind Link does need fixing. I don't have faith it will ever be the "proper telepathy ultimate we've always wanted" however, but again, preaching to the choir here so here's my gif:

    elQmA2o.gif

    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Curse - This is a stun. That's it. Not only that, it only stuns the primary target unless the secondary targets are poisoned. There are other powers that are far more effective than this for CC, deal more damage, and can match or pass its utility, despite the nice advantages it has. Out of all the powers in Infernal Supernatural, this one just feels bad, and could use some love. Make it a better CC power (either by giving it a charge and making it a paralyze/stun based on poison, or increase the base damage.

    Disagree - Actually when used correctly it can be invaluable in a support rotation. Just pair it with something that applies POISON to enemies and watch the stuns blossom on everyone and everything.
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Magician's Dust - This could make for a threat wipe much like cower or smoke bomb, but for some reason it's a placate? It's a strange choice and it makes it inferior to the other mentioned similar powers.

    Disagree - This is already a threat wipe. Interesting that Cower has a larger target cap than Dust does and works in a better area arguably...but then again...they are housed in different sets...
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Holy Water - Not only is the heal puny, the advantages and utility aren't practical or helpful.

    Holy Water does need a few blessings. :+1:
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Tiger's Bite - This power is basically just inferior to Dragon's Claws. It's something of an alternative if you don't have crits, but it's just straight up less damage, less useful, and requires shred to get even close to competitive, which dragon claws can utilize without having to consume.

    Disagree - HARD. I don't think applying an in set debuff that is very simple to apply is too much to ask to see its damage skyrocket. You can have both DClaws and Tiger's Bite on the same build and follow through quite easily. It's great.
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Orbital Cannon - Frankly almost every power in gadgets could be on this list. Orbital cannon does mild damage for its long charge up and delayed hit. It's not worth the time when you compare it to other powers, and really deserves more for what was basically a proto-ultimate back in the day. Either make this power an ultimate with proper damage, or rework it to be more useful.

    Orbital's damage can be pretty high when set up but it might need a little something. Not sure exactly what that small thing would be though.

    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Twister - Another cool power with vastly better performing CC alternatives. Give it damage, make it AoE, just do something for the poor thing.

    Hmm, I can see what you are saying, but making it AoE might be a little strange visually. Might be better to make it a rapid Stagger applicator in addition to being an ST paralyze.
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Thunderstrike - This power has some utility, but given that ball lightning can make this set pretty brainless, this power never gets used. Consider something extra to spice up the power, even increasing the damage advantage on held targets. It could make it into a fun combo power if nothing else.

    Disagree -Power does get used, and can be quite nice to fit into a rotation IMO. Ball Lightning aren't super reliable even though they are some of the most obedient pets out there. so Thunderstrike's damage and utility can be quite useful.
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    [*] Snowstorm - This power doesn't really compare to its similar counterparts. Whirlwind and Ebon Rift each do superior damage and have better utility in their pull. Snowstorm isn't worth the hassle of maintaining it for the lackluster damage and chill you get. Buff the damage or give it some extra utility or flair.

    Always felt like this power should innately debuff NPC perception GREATLY, like the NPC version does to us sometimes (obvs this effect wouldn't work that well against Legendaries and Cosmic entities.)
    Post edited by theravenforce on
  • lunnylunnylunnylunny Posts: 165 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    While I understand the idea of Focused Shot and Sniper Rifle being 'openers', the game has *long* moved beyond having an use for that sort of power. While a lot of people are against the damage interruption,my problem is with their damage. They're subpar, by a lot.

    The 120ft range doesn't really protect you that much, but even if we consider that it does benefit you in certain fights it also means you cannot reapply your Resistance debuff.

    For the more effort needed to play Sniper Rifle/Focused shot, there should be some reward, but Focused Shot does less damage than Rapid Shots over the same duration, on perfect conditions (3 stacks and everything, because the stacks only remove one second of charge).

    So am I trading damage for the 20 extra ft range or am I trading the ability to use it without being interrupted for the range? Am I trading damage for a stun? Can't it just do bonus damage to stun immune characters?

    The easiest solution currently, until a proper revision, is to boost their damage up. A 10~20% damage boost to Focused Shot should keep it relevant without breaking things. For Sniper Rifle though, it's WAY behind in damage. I'd suggest a 25% damage bonus, it'd still be behind Focused Shot on perfect conditions DPS wise, but has a better "burst" and would be USABLE at the very least, without being too big of an opener burst damage.



    And I agree with the before mentioned, I hope we can touch on power values to make them at least *usable* until a revamp comes in proper. It doesn't need (nor necessarily should) outDPS other things, but small value changes would go a LONG way until we get the revamp on mechanics. It hurts to not even be able to use some of these powers just due to how far behind they are in comparison to others.
    Post edited by lunnylunny on
  • rinzler156rinzler156 Posts: 17 Arc User
    Feral Rage does -NOT- need a buff, I will have to show you how amazing it actually is for tanking.
  • lunnylunny wrote: »
    While I understand the idea of Focused Shot and Sniper Rifle being 'openers', the game has *long* moved beyond having an use for that sort of power. While a lot of people are against the damage interruption,my problem is with their damage. They're subpar, by a lot.

    I agree. Due to the ramping up nature of DPS (stack building, debuffing), an opener power makes no sense - you are always at your weakest at the beginning of a fight.

    Unless we make those attacks similar to Shadow Strike (a high-burst, non-scaling attack with a long cooldown) I don't see them working as an opener exclusively.

    ERgLqqC.png
  • ouryobaouryoba Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Sniper Rifle absolutly yes. Taking into consideration nature of endgame there is no place for such slow power. And thats a damn shame, because as all things in this game - it has potentional to become great. Its already has foundation for that.
    I can deal with 3 second of charge time and 1 second of activation time if damage is good. But its not! And on top of that there is a big chance that you wont even be able to do that damage because someone sneeze in your direction. Every time i am trying to make it work it feels like i am riding a bike with square wheels while questining nature of reality. And you dont need to do much to fix that! Just remove stun (tanks who going on a walk with kiga dogs would be first who thank you for that) and as compensation add damage. Make it 100 ft range and as compensation add damage. Remove interupt and just add some damage because god dang it its 3 second charge power. And bang its good now! And everyone is gona love you for that!

    Orbital Cannon Turn it into ultimate. As we all know its weapon of mass destruction but as for now it so underwhelming like there is a guy in the sky with magnifying glass who every now and then just trying to fry some ants but ants be like "dont care lol". You did a great job with Black Talon version of it. Why not to give players copy of that power?

  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 278 Arc User

    Disagree - Actually when used correctly it can be invaluable in a support rotation. Just pair it with something that applies Jinxed to enemies and watch the stuns blossom on everyone and everything.
    Sounds interesting. I've never messed around with the stunning effects, but it sounds cool. I'll have to try it out.
    Disagree - This is already a threat wipe. Interesting that Cower has a larger target cap than Dust does and works in a better area arguably...but then again...they are housed in different sets...
    You're right. I misread the power strangely. The placate is a strange addition when it's already a threat wipe so I guess my mind skipped the wipe part. :confounded:
    Disagree - HARD. I don't think applying an in set debuff that is very simple to apply is too much to ask to see its damage skyrocket. You can have both DClaws and Tiger's Bite on the same build and follow through quite easily. It's great.
    Mmm, maybe, but I've never felt like the damage "skyrockets." In comparison to Dclaws it always felt underwhelming for your bit of spike damage, considering Dclaws has the massive severity boost on it already. I still feel like it could use something to make it stand out a bit more, personally.
    Disagree -Power does get used, and can be quite nice to fit into a rotation IMO. Ball Lightning aren't super reliable even though they are some of the most obedient pets out there. so Thunderstrike's damage and utility can be quite useful.
    I can't say I agree. Even disregarding ball lightning and other simpler bits to the rotation, thunderstrike doesn't really feel unique or useful in the rotation to me. Why do thunderstrike when I can just use my ball lightning and a tap of chain lightning to keep things spiffy? Just feels like an underwhelming, forgotten middle tier power and I barely ever see it used.

    Always felt like this power should innately debuff NPC perception GREATLY, like the NPC version does to us sometimes (obvs this effect wouldn't work that well against Legendaries and Cosmic entities.)
    I agree! In fact I'm kind of surprised it was left out of the little perception debuff update we got last year or so. Given how much NPCs abuse it, it's surprising they didn't do that perception debuff for us and give it a cooldown or something.
  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 278 Arc User
    ouryoba wrote: »
    Sniper Rifle absolutly yes. Taking into consideration nature of endgame there is no place for such slow power. And thats a damn shame, because as all things in this game - it has potentional to become great. Its already has foundation for that.
    I can deal with 3 second of charge time and 1 second of activation time if damage is good. But its not! And on top of that there is a big chance that you wont even be able to do that damage because someone sneeze in your direction. Every time i am trying to make it work it feels like i am riding a bike with square wheels while questining nature of reality. And you dont need to do much to fix that! Just remove stun (tanks who going on a walk with kiga dogs would be first who thank you for that) and as compensation add damage. Make it 100 ft range and as compensation add damage. Remove interupt and just add some damage because god dang it its 3 second charge power. And bang its good now! And everyone is gona love you for that!

    Orbital Cannon Turn it into ultimate. As we all know its weapon of mass destruction but as for now it so underwhelming like there is a guy in the sky with magnifying glass who every now and then just trying to fry some ants but ants be like "dont care lol". You did a great job with Black Talon version of it. Why not to give players copy of that power?

    Agreed that it really doesn't have to be much for Sniper. It would be cool to see it remain unique in its range, but I'd rather just be able to use it tbh.

    I do agree on the Orbital Cannon ultimate as well. Given the literal lore of the game is that Detroit was pretty much obliterated by Dr. D's "ORBITAL CANNON" it's kind of ironic that our version is so puny.

  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 278 Arc User

    So I've had another look at Faultline, and I get the impression its cost would have to be dramatically recalculated, as would the charge time and quite a few other things, to force it to be a "Gigabolt" or "Typhoon" within the Earth set.

    If it wasn't too challenging to do, I'd support it being Earth's answer to "Gigabolt" or "Typhoon" but I'd want to see its range increased to 100ft.

    I wanted to single this out specifically cause Faultline is probably my biggest gripe on this list, mainly cause I love earth and it's in such a sorry state.

    I'm fairly certain the cost was left low because the natural energy gain on earth is abysmal. It had no EU originally and relied on enrage for most of things as a partly ranged set because the devs were... ambitious? I'm actually okay with keeping the range 50ft, as with most things in Earth, but it needs to have waaaaaaay more damage to compensate for it. Getting alternatives to Typhoon, Gigabolt, and Force Cascade is really needed in things like TT and Faultline is the perfect candidate for it. It would make my year to see it improved, and would keep me satisfied until earth gets a full rework down the road.

  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,574 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    I'm really glad for the existence for this thread, I believe it's about time for people to focus on the ACTUAL power revamps for the game which is the CORE Element that needs most help

    That being said I will add a power which gets overshadowed all the time
    Ebon Rift:
    • Maintence AoE power with a 20-13 seconds CD power, making it inferior to Shadow Embrace and Shade Storm
    • Still doesn't trigger Concentration and Chilled Form because its tagged as a "Summon" power
    • The only way to Min-max the damage is by sacrificing rank 3 to take the the Vengeful Shadows ADV which deals massive damage to the enemies on the center of the rift BUT turns the power into an obnoxious KNOCKED BACK power
      In team-content but even solo this knock back is just a Sabotage! Even if you don't have EGO as Super Stat
      Picture Related
      EdbXbzT.gif
      So now you sacrificed Rank 3 to make the AOE more powerful, but now you are stuck with a long Cooldown power which requires maintance that actively sabotage you, Brilliant
    • The power is in such a bad place that I feel Devs decided to give it "Support" advs instead of attempting to fix it
    • The NPC VERSION of this power is disgustingly overperforming compared players' version as I have expressed my dissatisfaction in this thread
      It has Vacuum for days, it has innate Staggered Debuff that stacks up more than 5 times and the power makes Rank 3 Flight
      characters complety worthless to dodge it compard to Super Speed and Acrobatics
    • Cool and Unique power that goes completely wasted due to Outdated mechanics
    ​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
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  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 278 Arc User
    > @avianos said:
    > I'm really glad for the existence for this thread, I believe it's about time for people to focus on the ACTUAL power revamps for the game which is the CORE Element that needs most help
    >
    > That being said I will add a power which gets overshadowed all the time
    > Ebon Rift:* Maintence AoE power with a 20-13 seconds CD power, making it inferior to Shadow Embrace and Shade Storm
    > * Still doesn't trigger Concentration and Chilled Form because its tagged as a "Summon" power
    > * The only way to Min-max the damage is by sacrificing rank 3 to take the the Vengeful Shadows ADV which deals massive damage to the enemies on the center of the rift BUT turns the power into an obnoxious KNOCKED BACK power
    > In team-content but even solo this knock back is just a Sabotage! Even if you don't have EGO as Super Stat
    > Picture Related
    >
    >
    > So now you sacrificed Rank 3 to make the AOE more powerful, but now you are stuck with a long Cooldown power which requires maintance that actively sabotage you, Brilliant
    > * The power is in such a bad place that I feel Devs decided to give it "Support" advs instead of attempting to fix it
    > * The NPC VERSION of this power is disgustingly overperforming compared players' version as I have expressed my dissatisfaction in this thread
    > It has Vacuum for days, it has innate Staggered Debuff that stacks up more than 5 times and the power makes Rank 3 Flight
    > characters complety worthless to dodge it compard to Super Speed and Acrobatics
    >
    > * Cool and Unique power that goes completely wasted due to Outdated mechanics
    >
    > ​​

    Normally I'd agree with you, but I have a build that shreds mobs with ebon rift's vengeful shadows. Key is to have a lot of pull to offset the knock. Whirlpool and whirlwind do the trick for me.

    That said, I would like to see the base damage of the power be a bit better. It doesn't feel very good without the advantage.
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 886 Arc User
    Back in the day (old timer reminiscing here), Ebon Rift w/ Vengeful Shadows was the go-to power for many because it did a consistent 1k+ dmg/tick. Which was a very high dps back then. So, it shredded bosses. Then, the devs of the time, in which Kaiserin was still a player, they nerfed it. Made it do the knock so nothing would just stand in the 1k+ dmg/tick zone. And those that did, knock-immune, only took a slightly bit more over regular damage, not the 1k+.

    However, as Panthrax notes, you CAN still get it to affect mobs with a bit of effort. Which, for most mobs outside of QWZ is a "so what?", as they are quickly shredded by almost any power already.

    Same idea is applied to many other powers that could be fun or useful, but don't actually affect the NPCs you'd like it to work on. Sure, CONFUSING a mob is sorta fun, but you want the Master Villain and higher to be affected too. But, they're not. So why even take some powers or their advantages? To me, there's just no point if the higher damage/control effect/whatever ONLY affects the weak mobs.​​
    .

    -=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,825 Arc User
    panthrax77 wrote: »

    So I've had another look at Faultline, and I get the impression its cost would have to be dramatically recalculated, as would the charge time and quite a few other things, to force it to be a "Gigabolt" or "Typhoon" within the Earth set.

    If it wasn't too challenging to do, I'd support it being Earth's answer to "Gigabolt" or "Typhoon" but I'd want to see its range increased to 100ft.

    I wanted to single this out specifically cause Faultline is probably my biggest gripe on this list, mainly cause I love earth and it's in such a sorry state.

    I'm fairly certain the cost was left low because the natural energy gain on earth is abysmal. It had no EU originally and relied on enrage for most of things as a partly ranged set because the devs were... ambitious? I'm actually okay with keeping the range 50ft, as with most things in Earth, but it needs to have waaaaaaay more damage to compensate for it. Getting alternatives to Typhoon, Gigabolt, and Force Cascade is really needed in things like TT and Faultline is the perfect candidate for it. It would make my year to see it improved, and would keep me satisfied until earth gets a full rework down the road.

    If it was to keep its current range (which in all likelihood it will since the animation would have to be adjusted), I do agree it would need more damage and a cost recalculation.

    But I honestly see another power claiming that high damage Cylinder AOE slot.

    Earth has a number of issues and as I've said before would benefit greatly from the TK treatment, i.e. having a viable melee pathway and ranged pathway.

    Earth's problem is that it feels unfinished, disjointed and potentially in the "wrong" category. I think it would benefit from a lot of things that would be great to cover in a full set pass.

    Rebalancing just one power in a set that has so much interplay with other abilities within the set would be a waste of time, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see it happen lol.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,825 Arc User
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    Mmm, maybe, but I've never felt like the damage "skyrockets." In comparison to Dclaws it always felt underwhelming for your bit of spike damage, considering Dclaws has the massive severity boost on it already. I still feel like it could use something to make it stand out a bit more, personally.

    This is likely because of the gigantic boost in severity that this power has innately in comparison to Tiger's Bite. Only one other power beats it with a self application of a gigantic critical severity boost and that's very dependent on a debuff, and that's an ultimate ability (self buff +20% crit chance / +60% critical severity).

    Thinking about it, it would make more sense for Dragon's Claw to only apply that boost if the target was affected by Shredded, instead of it being innate, would lend itself more to the idea that Tiger's Bite is the heavier hitter and finisher in the set.

    panthrax77 wrote: »
    I can't say I agree. Even disregarding ball lightning and other simpler bits to the rotation, thunderstrike doesn't really feel unique or useful in the rotation to me. Why do thunderstrike when I can just use my ball lightning and a tap of chain lightning to keep things spiffy? Just feels like an underwhelming, forgotten middle tier power and I barely ever see it used.

    I don't think it helps that Thunderstrike's animation is a bit spotty, but personally I like to build with a surefire reason to have an ability in the build. Back in the day it used to be the rooting ability advantage, now its just for heals and pretty nice damage on tap.

    panthrax77 wrote: »
    I agree! In fact I'm kind of surprised it was left out of the little perception debuff update we got last year or so. Given how much NPCs abuse it, it's surprising they didn't do that perception debuff for us and give it a cooldown or something.

    Would probably be seen as trivializing content. Snow Storm doesn't have a cooldown, so anything like that would probably make the power stupidly costly, give it a giant cooldown, limit the perception to the main target or all three plus making the percentage to affect perception chance based :tongue:
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 735 Arc User
    One of the biggest issues I found w/tiger bite is that if there are 3 shreds already on the target, then you get no rupture. And that completely DESTROYS your dps, by more than 1/2. That, and it's just flat out 17% less dps overall than DC - because of the need to combo out the shred in between. But this set hasn't been redone yet. We'll see what happens.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 278 Arc User
    panthrax77 wrote: »

    So I've had another look at Faultline, and I get the impression its cost would have to be dramatically recalculated, as would the charge time and quite a few other things, to force it to be a "Gigabolt" or "Typhoon" within the Earth set.

    If it wasn't too challenging to do, I'd support it being Earth's answer to "Gigabolt" or "Typhoon" but I'd want to see its range increased to 100ft.

    I wanted to single this out specifically cause Faultline is probably my biggest gripe on this list, mainly cause I love earth and it's in such a sorry state.

    I'm fairly certain the cost was left low because the natural energy gain on earth is abysmal. It had no EU originally and relied on enrage for most of things as a partly ranged set because the devs were... ambitious? I'm actually okay with keeping the range 50ft, as with most things in Earth, but it needs to have waaaaaaay more damage to compensate for it. Getting alternatives to Typhoon, Gigabolt, and Force Cascade is really needed in things like TT and Faultline is the perfect candidate for it. It would make my year to see it improved, and would keep me satisfied until earth gets a full rework down the road.

    If it was to keep its current range (which in all likelihood it will since the animation would have to be adjusted), I do agree it would need more damage and a cost recalculation.

    But I honestly see another power claiming that high damage Cylinder AOE slot.

    Earth has a number of issues and as I've said before would benefit greatly from the TK treatment, i.e. having a viable melee pathway and ranged pathway.

    Earth's problem is that it feels unfinished, disjointed and potentially in the "wrong" category. I think it would benefit from a lot of things that would be great to cover in a full set pass.

    Rebalancing just one power in a set that has so much interplay with other abilities within the set would be a waste of time, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see it happen lol.

    The sad thing is, I can't think of another set that needs a rework more. At least other sets have reasonable use of their powers. And force at least has FC if nothing else. That said, probably won't be getting the rework anytime soon, given the implied schedule. :(
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,574 Arc User
    Disagree -Power does get used, and can be quite nice to fit into a rotation IMO. Ball Lightning aren't super reliable even though they are some of the most obedient pets out there. so Thunderstrike's damage and utility can be quite useful.
    Also I agree with you, I'm a fan of Thunderstrike over Ball Lightning in Non Pure-electricity builds
    It helps it has Restoration and a Knock+Debuff refresh advs :grimace: Fits perfectly on my Elementalist as self healing theme power!
    I dislike Ball lightning and with the whole AI wonkiness that it may hit the WRONG endgame targets
    Just tap Chain Lightning-> Tap Thunderstrike after 2 maintances of Lighting Arc

    Of course I wouldn't mind if the power would provide with even more options, I feel it can deal some really good damage as opening AOE

    If anything I have more issues with Chain Lightning because it becomes a Dead-powerslot power after I apply Superconductor Debuff :expressionless: Electrocute (Superconductor) would be an alternative but I dislike it
    I don't think it helps that Thunderstrike's animation is a bit spotty, but personally I like to build with a surefire reason to have an ability in the build. Back in the day it used to be the rooting ability advantage, now its just for heals and pretty nice damage on tap.
    The power is very Glitchy, I remember when I started playing my friends with his TEMPEST AT, kept saying that He couldn't see Thunderstrike on screen!
    Several years later I could experience what he was saying! Sometimes the visuals fail to appear! This is still happening :V Phantom Thunder Strike
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    Normally I'd agree with you, but I have a build that shreds mobs with ebon rift's vengeful shadows. Key is to have a lot of pull to offset the knock. Whirlpool and whirlwind do the trick for me.

    That said, I would like to see the base damage of the power be a bit better. It doesn't feel very good without the advantage.
    Interesting, You have perhaps find a perfect use for WIND powers and created an unique WIND+DARKENSS hybrid build
    I wasn't thinking outside of darkness powers and always expecting Shadow Embrace (Dark Displacement) and Dimensional Collapse to apply full knock resistance on targets to prevent the Knock spam

    I don't know, whirlwind's Vacuum can be incredible glitchy and make the enemy model's position flickering! Not to mention it also requires its fair share of Maintance
    However you made me think of the Updraft being possible tool to apply knock immunity ASAP

    You got me interested trying to make Ebon Rift I'm gonna need to retry a FF build on PTS those days! But i still feel underwelming going -3 to -4 powers just for the sake of one power like this​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
    An Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable but farms way to much to archieve that
    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroesm! Playing since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 86+ Characters (7 ATs, 79 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life! Run out of unique FF builds!
  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 278 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    > @avianos said:
    > You got me interested trying to make Ebon Rift I'm gonna need to retry a FF build on PTS those days! But i still feel underwelming going -3 to -4 powers just for the sake of one power like this​​

    For content like TT, it's worth it, considering powers like whirlpool are useful even without ebon rift. Being able to clear most of the room in Baron and Black Fang in a single ebon rift crit maintain (since if it crits, every hit crits) is incredibly satisfying. Highly recommend it.
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