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We need to talk about "Breakthrough".
eva1988
Posts: 183 Arc User
It is almost entirely useless in PVP.
Why?
Activate time
If i put breakthrough on an attack, i had better make sure it is on an attack that has the lowest possible activate time, because the longer the activate time the longer my opponent has to react.
Block deactivation is instant, and the average human reaction time for visual stimulus is 0.25 second. Almost all abilities with breakthrough have 0.5 second or upwards activate times (i haven't checked all of them, but most). This is too much time to react when block deactivation is instantaneous. Not only for how easy it is to react and evade breakthrough visually, but also because at the same time the blocker has the advantage with instant deactivation.
You can test this ingame by simply holding block, and watching the block buff under your portrait vanishing instantly when you turn off again. The start-up activation is admittedly slower than instant when initiating block, but remember that has no bearing on landing breakthrough. Only the speed at which block cancels matters, as the breakthrough must hit block to be useful. If it lands before block has activated, then it is to the blocker's benefit.
This means the breaker must have reactions above what is humanly possible to be able to guarantee they bypass block. Where as a blocker has double the average reaction time (or more) to evade being hit by a break. Add to this that the breaker is punished for missing a break via a buff being applied to the potential blocker, locking out any further attempts of breaking for several seconds.
This exchange vastly favors the blocker, and how in manifests in PVP results in people just instantly dropping block the moment they know the break is coming. It actually feels impossible to land it when they know which ability conceals the break, which lasts all of one time unless you fancy a retcon after every duel.
If you must rely on your opponent to make a mistake for you to deal damage to them, then whether or not they are caught by breakthrough rests entirely on them making a mistake. A mistake that is easily avoided by investing minimal attention on your attacker.
This is a problem because when it becomes impossible to get past block, it essentially becomes impossible to defeat your opponent. This results in endless dueling, and endless dueling is boring and predictable. Not fun.
Animations
Part of the reason breaking is so difficult isn't only because of the impossible reactions required, but also that the visual indicators of blocking are often not present at all.
If i take acrobatics and i run around holding block, you can't actually visually see that i'm blocking. The animation does not work. The only indication that i'm blocking would be the tiny square under my portrait which can pop on and off instantly depending on whether i'm pressing block or not. This goes for every travel power that i know of, excluding travel powers that do not allow blocking of course. If you're in motion with your travel power active, the block animation does not occur, including the slow falling from teleport.
The same does not apply for those who use breakthrough. Out of all the the breakthrough abilities i have tested, they all have the ingame animation as an indicator whilst in motion with a travel power active.
Cost
This is a little off the core of the topic, but it is just another reason i feel Breakthrough is so bad.
There are two advantages that i think we all agree feel like we're wasting advantage points. They feel like something that should just be innate to certain powers if we want them to be. Those being : Nailed to the ground, and Breakthrough.
Why do they feel so wasteful? Because their only real use is in PVP, and points spent for PVP are points not spent for PVE.
I find myself asking "Why must we choose between PVE and PVP when building?". Would it not be better just to make these zero cost advantages so that we do not have to build for either PVE or PVP? I say this because anyone who PVPs on this game will need to play PVE to progress their character. That is just a fact.
In this climate it would make more sense to just put NTTG and BT innately on certain powers so that they can be equally effective in PVP whilst not detracting from a PVE build, as all PVPers will have to PVE.
I would also argue doing this for "challenge" would be a good idea too, but i'd be getting too far off-topic, and that is it's own discussion.
I can see what was intended from this design, the game just cannot handle such a dynamic blocking system without completely breaking PVP for the reasons i've mentioned above. But the real question is.. How do you fix it without harming PVE?
The answer is one the devs will probably not want to hear given that they invested time in the change, but the truth is? Crippling challenge was better.
It was better when block was almost useless in PVP than to have it overshadowing PVP completely.
Now, i'm open to finding a new approach entirely if it works. My worry is the devs/dev do not have the time to rework block again, so i would take a simple reversion over finding another way to rework it.
Why?
Activate time
If i put breakthrough on an attack, i had better make sure it is on an attack that has the lowest possible activate time, because the longer the activate time the longer my opponent has to react.
Block deactivation is instant, and the average human reaction time for visual stimulus is 0.25 second. Almost all abilities with breakthrough have 0.5 second or upwards activate times (i haven't checked all of them, but most). This is too much time to react when block deactivation is instantaneous. Not only for how easy it is to react and evade breakthrough visually, but also because at the same time the blocker has the advantage with instant deactivation.
You can test this ingame by simply holding block, and watching the block buff under your portrait vanishing instantly when you turn off again. The start-up activation is admittedly slower than instant when initiating block, but remember that has no bearing on landing breakthrough. Only the speed at which block cancels matters, as the breakthrough must hit block to be useful. If it lands before block has activated, then it is to the blocker's benefit.
This means the breaker must have reactions above what is humanly possible to be able to guarantee they bypass block. Where as a blocker has double the average reaction time (or more) to evade being hit by a break. Add to this that the breaker is punished for missing a break via a buff being applied to the potential blocker, locking out any further attempts of breaking for several seconds.
This exchange vastly favors the blocker, and how in manifests in PVP results in people just instantly dropping block the moment they know the break is coming. It actually feels impossible to land it when they know which ability conceals the break, which lasts all of one time unless you fancy a retcon after every duel.
If you must rely on your opponent to make a mistake for you to deal damage to them, then whether or not they are caught by breakthrough rests entirely on them making a mistake. A mistake that is easily avoided by investing minimal attention on your attacker.
This is a problem because when it becomes impossible to get past block, it essentially becomes impossible to defeat your opponent. This results in endless dueling, and endless dueling is boring and predictable. Not fun.
Animations
Part of the reason breaking is so difficult isn't only because of the impossible reactions required, but also that the visual indicators of blocking are often not present at all.
If i take acrobatics and i run around holding block, you can't actually visually see that i'm blocking. The animation does not work. The only indication that i'm blocking would be the tiny square under my portrait which can pop on and off instantly depending on whether i'm pressing block or not. This goes for every travel power that i know of, excluding travel powers that do not allow blocking of course. If you're in motion with your travel power active, the block animation does not occur, including the slow falling from teleport.
The same does not apply for those who use breakthrough. Out of all the the breakthrough abilities i have tested, they all have the ingame animation as an indicator whilst in motion with a travel power active.
Cost
This is a little off the core of the topic, but it is just another reason i feel Breakthrough is so bad.
There are two advantages that i think we all agree feel like we're wasting advantage points. They feel like something that should just be innate to certain powers if we want them to be. Those being : Nailed to the ground, and Breakthrough.
Why do they feel so wasteful? Because their only real use is in PVP, and points spent for PVP are points not spent for PVE.
I find myself asking "Why must we choose between PVE and PVP when building?". Would it not be better just to make these zero cost advantages so that we do not have to build for either PVE or PVP? I say this because anyone who PVPs on this game will need to play PVE to progress their character. That is just a fact.
In this climate it would make more sense to just put NTTG and BT innately on certain powers so that they can be equally effective in PVP whilst not detracting from a PVE build, as all PVPers will have to PVE.
I would also argue doing this for "challenge" would be a good idea too, but i'd be getting too far off-topic, and that is it's own discussion.
I can see what was intended from this design, the game just cannot handle such a dynamic blocking system without completely breaking PVP for the reasons i've mentioned above. But the real question is.. How do you fix it without harming PVE?
The answer is one the devs will probably not want to hear given that they invested time in the change, but the truth is? Crippling challenge was better.
It was better when block was almost useless in PVP than to have it overshadowing PVP completely.
Now, i'm open to finding a new approach entirely if it works. My worry is the devs/dev do not have the time to rework block again, so i would take a simple reversion over finding another way to rework it.
Post edited by eva1988 on
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As it stands, block, especially on tankier characters is super overpowered.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1212566/should-block-spam-in-pvp-be-rewarded
My super cool CC build and how to use it.