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Forums > Home› Champions Online Discussion

The future of lootboxes?

soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
in Champions Online Discussion
Could be hanging on a thread now in the US. The FTC is investigating lootboxes to see if they truly are not gambling as companies claim or if they are as players and some psychologists claim.

Person feelings aside, I do see the same issues that people that are addicted to gambling have in myself despite the fact that I do not gamble. The only thing I do that is random chance is spend money on lootboxes.

And it appears the FTC started this investigation this week. If the FTC does indeed decide that lootboxes fall under gambling. What happens to lootboxes in CO/STO/NWO? Would Cryptic have to do something to continue making lootboxes, or, would Cryptic have to do something else with the things they stick in lootboxes? Or, would Cryptic do what some companies have done in Belgium when Belgium outright outlawed lootboxes (which was remove their games from the country)? I noticed that other countries have also been making moves against lootboxes recently because they agree that they are a form of gambling.

So, what do you guys think would have to happen for Cryptic to adapt in the case that the FTC labels lootboxes as gambling? Companies in the US have to get a license to perform gambling if I remember correctly. Wouldn't Cryptic/PWI have to get a license to continue selling the lootboxes? What does everyone think about this?

Comments

  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    They're not investigating our kind of lootboxes, so the future will be just like the present. We had a long discussion about why this won't really effect CO over in the off topic section.

    If CO did have to get rid of lootboxes, they would basically just put more stuff in the z store for direct purchase. Key economy would disappear, which would be bad for free players. The prices charged for the stuff would also be fairly stiff to ensure no disruption to the cash flow, again bad for free players. Long story short, if they have to get rid of lockboxes free players can look forward to having to farm even more than they do now.

    Which is funny cause it seems like it's usually the people not paying to open boxes are the ones that complain about them most... not realizing that if they were to disappear things would actually get worse for them. I'm sure they envision that once lockboxes are gone the piniata would be ripped open and they would be showered with all the goodies... but nope, the goodies would actually be placed on a higher shelf even further out of their reach!​​
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    They're not investigating our kind of lootboxes
    Well, they might be; the FTC made a statement that's vague enough that it could mean anything. However, there's a difference between 'investigate' and 'actually do anything about'.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Yeah, vaugeness is the hallmark of everything to do with "loot box laws". I'll be worried when they actually say something that isn't one big "maybe".​​
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    pantagruel01 wrote: »
    spinnytop wrote: »
    They're not investigating our kind of lootboxes
    Well, they might be; the FTC made a statement that's vague enough that it could mean anything. However, there's a difference between 'investigate' and 'actually do anything about'.

    Yeah, which is why I asked about what would happen in the off-shot something did happen. And the statement was very vague on the "type" of lootbox they were investigating. So, any assumptions that they are not investigating lootbox models used by CO, is pointless till the future reveals what they are doing.

    Overall though, I'd have to agree with spinny. If they did remove lootboxes, things in them would be moved to a higher shelf (such as shoveling out $10 for a single costume set, more fro travel powers). This would make things even harder for those that typically get lootbox stuff by buying it off the AH. In short, they will need to step up and start spending money instead of waiting for people like me to place them in the AH, because it would not be possible to place them in the AH at that point.

    Of course, Cryptic could bypass that by allowing people to purchase tradeable items to sell...would basically be the same thing...
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    soulforger wrote: »
    So, any assumptions that they are not investigating lootbox models used by CO, is pointless till the future reveals what they are doing.
    Well, it mostly doesn't matter, because the big question is whether lootboxes meet the legal definition of gambling, which in turn depends on the definition of 'thing of value' (if video game goods are things of value, the case for lootboxes as gambling is pretty straightforward, but game companies assert that they are not. Defense of that assertion is a big part of why games ban real money trading).
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  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,397 Arc User
    I would not mind the disappearance of loot boxes at all.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,553 Arc User
    Or possibly put some real money in to the game?
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Long story short, if they have to get rid of lockboxes free players can look forward to having to farm even more than they do now.
    ​​

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  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    pantagruel01 wrote: »
    soulforger wrote: »
    So, any assumptions that they are not investigating lootbox models used by CO, is pointless till the future reveals what they are doing.
    Well, it mostly doesn't matter, because the big question is whether lootboxes meet the legal definition of gambling, which in turn depends on the definition of 'thing of value' (if video game goods are things of value, the case for lootboxes as gambling is pretty straightforward, but game companies assert that they are not. Defense of that assertion is a big part of why games ban real money trading).

    “Thing of value” is quite a can of worms. Especially in the standard PWE/Cryptic system, with boxes as drops, keys sold only in the store, multiple interconnected currencies, an exchange between in-game and real money proxy currency, and combinations of cosmetics, skills, vehicles, ships, mounts, mods, and services in the loot table. If the FTC’s starting points are the Star Wars Battlefront II debacle and the popularity of Overwatch, both of which are relatively simple lockbox systems, I worry they might look at all those moving parts in the Cryptic model and assume there was some kind of shell game going on in there. (The fact that SWBF2’s controversy included multiple currencies does Cryptic no favors.)
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    sistersilicon wrote: »
    If the FTC’s starting points are the Star Wars Battlefront II debacle and the popularity of Overwatch, both of which are relatively simple lockbox systems, I worry they might look at all those moving parts in the Cryptic model and assume there was some kind of shell game going on in there. (The fact that SWBF2’s controversy included multiple currencies does Cryptic no favors.)
    The seriously problematic case I recall involved things being tradeable on the Steam marketplace for goods in different games; if your game purchases can ever leave the sandbox of the game, they're definitely things of value.
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    pantagruel01 wrote: »
    soulforger wrote: »
    So, any assumptions that they are not investigating lootbox models used by CO, is pointless till the future reveals what they are doing.
    Well, it mostly doesn't matter, because the big question is whether lootboxes meet the legal definition of gambling, which in turn depends on the definition of 'thing of value' (if video game goods are things of value, the case for lootboxes as gambling is pretty straightforward, but game companies assert that they are not. Defense of that assertion is a big part of why games ban real money trading).

    That is true. But, to me, if I spend REAL money on it, it has value. But, that is my personal opinion. Will depend on what the FTC says.
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Or possibly put some real money in to the game?
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Long story short, if they have to get rid of lockboxes free players can look forward to having to farm even more than they do now.
    ​​

    Yep, they would need to put money into the game.
    sistersilicon wrote: »
    “Thing of value” is quite a can of worms. Especially in the standard PWE/Cryptic system, with boxes as drops, keys sold only in the store, multiple interconnected currencies, an exchange between in-game and real money proxy currency, and combinations of cosmetics, skills, vehicles, ships, mounts, mods, and services in the loot table. If the FTC’s starting points are the Star Wars Battlefront II debacle and the popularity of Overwatch, both of which are relatively simple lockbox systems, I worry they might look at all those moving parts in the Cryptic model and assume there was some kind of shell game going on in there. (The fact that SWBF2’s controversy included multiple currencies does Cryptic no favors.)

    Hm...that is a good point you make.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    soulforger wrote: »
    That is true. But, to me, if I spend REAL money on it, it has value. But, that is my personal opinion. Will depend on what the FTC says.
    Defining video game goods as things of value opens up a giant can of worms that has implications far beyond loot boxes (and which courts have declined to do), so it's not likely to happen. The more plausible threat is congress (and/or state legislature) redefining gambling in a way that covers lootboxes, and other than making recommendations, the FTC can't do much about that.
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    pantagruel01 wrote: »
    soulforger wrote: »
    That is true. But, to me, if I spend REAL money on it, it has value. But, that is my personal opinion. Will depend on what the FTC says.
    Defining video game goods as things of value opens up a giant can of worms that has implications far beyond loot boxes (and which courts have declined to do), so it's not likely to happen. The more plausible threat is congress (and/or state legislature) redefining gambling in a way that covers lootboxes, and other than making recommendations, the FTC can't do much about that.

    True to a degree.
  • subesan#3467 subesan
    subesan#3467
         Posts: 15 Arc User
    I'd personally be fine with loot boxes if the company posted the Drop rates. So players can make an informed decisions weather or not to spend his or her hard earned money.

    https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure

    https://www.pcgamesn.com/china-loot-box-regulations
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    I make an informed decision every time I open a Collector's Lockbox. I know I'm not getting that one damn ticket I want that gets me a Draysha Supercharger. See, I'm informed! \owo/​​
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  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,408 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    This is about parents who can't raise/handle kids. And blame school, society, games, tv etc. when they kids do something wrong.
    'on no, my little poopiepants just spend $6000 from my card that i gave him/her with the account information, to get a brightly colored gun/fluffy animal with a stupid name'.
    Prove me wrong.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,916 Arc User
    Well I'm sure someone will bring up the Smurfberries incident even though it's not relevant here. :p
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  • subesan#3467 subesan
    subesan#3467
         Posts: 15 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I make an informed decision every time I open a Collector's Lockbox. I know I'm not getting that one damn ticket I want that gets me a Draysha Supercharger. See, I'm informed! \owo/​​

    As long as you know!
    Have you tried a sacrifice to RNJesus?

    Alternatively they could expand the "bad luck protection" to drifter. Tickets for like 4 -500 salvage would be kinda nice.
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