Congress of Selves - DoT defense penetration broken?

spookyspectre

I read a 2016 post that suggested the DoT defense penetration from Congress of Selves may be broken. I'm not sure how to test. I noticed my overall DPS seems pretty low despite high end gear, level 40 specializations and being in the Ranged Damage role. I'm guessing the DoT defense penetration being broken may be contributing to the low DPS. Does anyone know if the defense penetration is working or not?

flowcyto

DoTs generally have issues benefiting from defense penetration (like w/ NW or Detect Vuln, the initial tick of a DoT usually benefits, but not the follow-up ticks). For CoS, the passive has had a weird history. At one point it buffed all Ego or Dimensional dmg (despite specifying only Ego-dmg DoTs), but that's been changed to be as advertised. Its -resist for DoTs also didn't work, iirc. Now it seems to kinda work (and on all TP DoT ticks).. but not as advertised (I'm seeing more of a -10% resist lower instead of a -30% at R3; perhaps its not properly ranking up from its R1 value).

The passive is pretty jank atm. I'd prob wait till TP's revamp to consider it.

theravenforce

Defense Penetration on Congress of Selves is definitely not working.

From the several devs who have looked into it and who I have communicated with, it seems that it can't really ever work as described.

The initial hit from a DoT will have some 'penetration' however the subsequent DoT damage will be as standard, since the additional damage ticks cannot benefit from your passive.

In short, the Defense Penetration aspect is not working as described. You are better off taking INT PSS w/ Detect Vulnerability and DUC and Ego Form to gain more out of an Ego Damage passive.

Right now, its better off being transformed into an On Next Hit power lol.

riverocean

I really wish CoG would just be changed back to buffing all Ego and Dimensional damage. Rather, than this attempt to make it work on a gimmick that's long been dismantled. All telepathy DoT's have had their damage reduced, recharge times increased, and can no longer stack. So there's no real point in a passive that buffs them (sort of) and is really just worthless.

Still grumpy about telepathy after all these years...

theravenforce

riverocean wrote: »

I really wish CoG would just be changed back to buffing all Ego and Dimensional damage. Rather, than this attempt to make it work on a gimmick that's long been dismantled. All telepathy DoT's have had their damage reduced, recharge times increased, and can no longer stack. So there's no real point in a passive that buffs them (sort of) and is really just worthless.

Still grumpy about telepathy after all these years...

spinnytop

theravenforce wrote: »

since the additional damage ticks cannot benefit from your passive.

That's weird and wacky. Though of course, damage ticks after the first do benefit from the damage bonus of your passive, otherwise we would be seeing dots start with a big tick and then finish off with smaller ones.

riverocean wrote: »

Still grumpy about telepathy after all these years...

And it still doesn't make sense why you are :P telepathy is godlike.​​

theravenforce

spinnytop wrote: »

theravenforce wrote: »

since the additional damage ticks cannot benefit from your passive.

That's weird and wacky. Though of course, damage ticks after the first do benefit from the damage bonus of your passive, otherwise we would be seeing dots start with a big tick and then finish off with smaller ones.

So whilst the actual damage % boost still affects your DoTs...(All four powers in the entire game... Mental Leech, Ego Sprites, Shadow of Doubt and Mental Storm \o/)

The penetration buff will only affect the first tick.

So it's likely that the first initial hit will be the biggest value and then subsequent values will be seen as smaller ticks but consistent (by and large).

Side Note: Regarding Telepathy...and its current state. Since it happens to fill a niche in the end game, due to its current monopoly on control powers, a lot of people do agree and say its fine/doing amazing sweetie etc, and that tells you everything you need to know *sips tea with honey*.

riverocean

theravenforce wrote: »

Side Note: Regarding Telepathy...and its current state. Since it happens to fill a niche in the end game, due to its current monopoly on control powers, a lot of people do agree and say its fine/doing amazing sweetie etc, and that tells you everything you need to know *sips tea with honey*.

Telepathy indeed fills a very specific niche, if you follow a very narrow build and stats. Again that's to fulfill a very specialized role in end game. A role, that I'm not entirely sure is WAI and could become useless if Kiga's fight mechanics are ever altered.

*Grabs a biscuit off the table and sips tea with theRavenforce*

spookyspectre

Thanks for the heads up. It felt like something was working a little less than advertised with Congress of Selves. I've tried to goose the DPS as much as possible and it still seems pretty underwhelming for a tricky rotation.

spinnytop

theravenforce wrote: »

So whilst the actual damage % boost still affects your DoTs...(All four powers in the entire game... Mental Leech, Ego Sprites, Shadow of Doubt and Mental Storm \o/)

The penetration buff will only affect the first tick.

So it's likely that the first initial hit will be the biggest value and then subsequent values will be seen as smaller ticks but consistent (by and large).

Yeah you already said that in the post I responded to o3o

theravenforce wrote: »

Side Note: Regarding Telepathy...and its current state. Since it happens to fill a niche in the end game, due to its current monopoly on control powers, a lot of people do agree and say its fine/doing amazing sweetie etc, and that tells you everything you need to know *sips tea with honey*.

It has a monopoly on Sleep, but that's it. One power isn't what makes Telepathy godlike, and standing around CCing dogs and crystals sure isn't either. It's actually in the entire rest of the game where it's godlike. At Cosmics it's not really doing anything special.

riverocean wrote: »

Telepathy indeed fills a very specific niche, if you follow a very narrow build and stats. Again that's to fulfill a very specialized role in end game. A role, that I'm not entirely sure is WAI and could become useless if Kiga's fight mechanics are ever altered.

*Grabs a biscuit off the table and sips tea with theRavenforce*

Your narrow view of how Telepathy can be used is the reason you're so grumpy about it. Of course I've been telling people like you this for years and you would just rather be grumpy than ever crawl out of your bubble so uh.. enjoy your tea o3o I'll be over here drinking coffee, and wrecking things in ways you don't think exist​​

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riverocean

spookyspectre wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up. It felt like something was working a little less than advertised with Congress of Selves. I've tried to goose the DPS as much as possible and it still seems pretty underwhelming for a tricky rotation.

This build below actually works out OK, but I use Night Warrior instead of CoS

Manipulator DOT Build II

Role: Ranged Damage
v3.11:30

Super Stats
Level 6: Presence (Primary)
Level 10: Recovery (Secondary)
Level 15: Dexterity (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Hero (Str: 8, Dex: 8, Con: 8, Int: 8, Ego: 8, Pre: 8, Rec: 6, End: 6)
Level 6: Intimidating (Pre: 8)
Level 9: Tireless (Rec: 8)
Level 12: Agile (Dex: 8)
Level 15: Finesse (Dex: 5, Pre: 5)
Level 18: Impresario (Dex: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 21: Lasting Impression (Pre: 5, Rec: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Psi Lash
Level 1: Ego Blast (Rank 2, Mind Opener)
Level 6: Telepathic Reverberation
Level 8: Night Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3, Silent Running)
Level 11: Mental Leech (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Manipulator
Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Ego Sprites (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Mental Storm (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Masterful Dodge
Level 29: Ego Storm (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Telekinetic Shield (Rank 2, Telekinetic Reinforcement)
Level 35: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 38: Thundering Return
Adv. Points: 34/36

Specializations
Presence: Dominion (2/2)
Presence: Grandeur (3/3)
Presence: Moment of Glory (3/3)
Presence: Vulnerability (2/2)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Moment of Need (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Overseer: Administer (3/3)
Overseer: Ruthless (2/2)
Overseer: Impact (2/2)
Overseer: Trapped (3/3)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

Notes:

Basically use stealth to get close to mobs. Open up with Mental Storm for the paralyze. Maintain Ego Storm to stun, do DPS, and keep Sentinel Mastery going. Apply Ego Sprites and Mental Leech for more healing and DPS. Block if necessary, the DoT's will continue to do their job. Use taps of Ego Blast w/Mind Opener for bosses.

Night Warrior provides a damage boost and defense penetration for most of your attacks (I'm aware of the limitations with the DoT's, but I still find the passive useful). I gear for DEX which also helps out the DoTs.

This is based on an older build by Cyrone, for Alert controlling and dps'ng.

pantagruel01

spinnytop wrote: »

That's weird and wacky. Though of course, damage ticks after the first do benefit from the damage bonus of your passive, otherwise we would be seeing dots start with a big tick and then finish off with smaller ones.​​

DoTs generally don't fire event triggers after the first hit, they're just a fixed effect, so effects that are only visible when a power fires don't apply after the first tic. Defense penetration (for most sources, at least) is actually a short duration debuff that triggers on a power being used.

theravenforce

spinnytop wrote: »

Yeah you already said that in the post I responded to o3o

But I wanted to reply to your reply. o3O O3o

spinnytop wrote: »

It has a monopoly on Sleep, but that's it. One power isn't what makes Telepathy godlike, and standing around CCing dogs and crystals sure isn't either. It's actually in the entire rest of the game where it's godlike. At Cosmics it's not really doing anything special.

Okay, so you're saying its nothing special then...my meaning was that it just has a high amount of control powers in the set. That's all. If you experience Telepathy as god-like, then more power to you.

spinnytop wrote: »

Your narrow view of how Telepathy can be used is the reason you're so grumpy about it. Of course I've been telling people like you this for years and you would just rather be grumpy than ever crawl out of your bubble so uh.. enjoy your tea o3o I'll be over here drinking coffee, and wrecking things in ways you don't think exist​​​​

spinnytop

theravenforce wrote: »

If you experience Telepathy as god-like, then more power to you.

I do. So much power to me. owo

Also yes really. You've seen me talking to these people. They make false claims, then I make videos showing reality. Then I dab while they sputter and fall all over themselves.

Or in some cases they're like "Oh hey you're right, I should do stuff like that now that I know it can be done!". You know, like shock-n-block. ^_^

Also we're totally derailing the thread with this. Telepathy is godlike o3o but not Congress of Selves... that passive was a neat idea, but it's been all fungly and bungly ever since it was created u3u​​

pantagruel01

theravenforce wrote: »

Side Note: Regarding Telepathy...and its current state. Since it happens to fill a niche in the end game, due to its current monopoly on control powers, a lot of people do agree and say its fine/doing amazing sweetie etc, and that tells you everything you need to know

Telepathy is currently a poor set for dps, but it has some absolutely amazing support powers. It's one of several sets that could use a power pass, but it's functional.

riverocean

I.E. I can make a kick **** build using Earth or Force. That doesn't mean the sets aren't broken and don't need some love.

The TP build I posted in this thread is perfectly capable of soloing RWZ and offers amazing control for most pve content. However, telepathy is still burdened with broken options that don't work as described. Which brings us back to the topic that CoS is borked, and has never really worked as promised. Also, trying to create a build that chains together the telepathy DoT's isn't easy. Especially, when the passive that's supposed to make that possible doesn't work. A filler power to keep the dps acceptable is needed, and that wasn't always the case.

Gradi, I saw you post but I guess your blocked! Thanks for joining us for tea!

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spinnytop

Use Ego Form. Done.​​

pantagruel01

spinnytop wrote: »

Use Ego Form. Done.​​

Or if you really want to use support role, Seraphim. It's true that Congress of Selves is based on a gimmick that no longer works, but it's not like adequate substitutes don't exist.

riverocean

The fact that work arounds exist, doesn't negate the fact the set needs help. I can use Quarry for Force Cascade spam too, or supplement powers from Heavy Weapons into Earth, to make something that works. Those sets still need help, and so does Telepathy.

The original DoT mechanics were introduced to help Telepathy. Now that mini-set was tampered with, including a range nerf to Ego Sprites. Which impacted the Mind AT, and still hasn't been adequately addressed. The Mind AT needs a revamp. The Telepathy Set needs a revamp. I have no idea what anyone gains, by arguing that they don't.

Case in point, the TK set revamp was awesome. It added a lot of utility to the set and fixed broken powers. Why in the world shouldn't Telepathy (it's sister set) get the same treatment? I also assume that when TP does eventually get fixed, the same people that are now naysaying, will be cheering and saying how wonderful the revamp is...

So uhm yeah.

jaazaniah1

Is anyone here actually saying that Telepathy doesn't need a rework of some sort? I thought everyone was agreeing to that, even if they have their workarounds.

spinnytop

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Is anyone here actually saying that Telepathy doesn't need a rework of some sort?

No, but I wouldn't be surprised if the old "someone disagreed with me on something so I'm going to act like they are the antithesis of all my beliefs" thing happened. Personally I think all the powersets still need work, even the ones that have gotten a pass this cycle.

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

I thought everyone was agreeing to that, even if they have their workarounds.

Yep. You know how some people are though, they can't tell the difference between figuring out how to work with something versus defending it. Not saying anyone in this thread is like that of course... *sits down with everyone else at the tea party and drinks a liquid*

pantagruel01 wrote: »

spinnytop wrote: »

Use Ego Form. Done.

Or if you really want to use support role, Seraphim. It's true that Congress of Selves is based on a gimmick that no longer works, but it's not like adequate substitutes don't exist.

True dat. Really, the CoS situation just means we don't have as many workable passives for Telepathy. Once they figure it out, we'll just have one more to add to the list.​​

pwestolemyname

theravenforce wrote: »

In short, the Defense Penetration aspect is not working as described. You are better off taking INT PSS w/ Detect Vulnerability and DUC and Ego Form to gain more out of an Ego Damage passive.

I was told that Detect Vulnerability did not work with DoTs. I haven't tested this, though.

spinnytop wrote: »

And it still doesn't make sense why you are :P telepathy is godlike.​​

I can attest. My process is this;
1) Take Telepathy
2) Sit back
3) Relax
4) Profit

To me, rather than being a niche powerset, Telepathy is one of the most universally useful powersets. With control, healing, and damage, you can easily make a character that excels at all content. Sure, you can do the cool stuff of kigadogs and apehearts, a skill that is rare in this game, but you can also magetank Alerts pulling a whole groups of newbies without losing a soul, faceroll story content and comic series, and rofflestomp QWZ all in the same character. Not many other powersets can claim that.

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Is anyone here actually saying that Telepathy doesn't need a rework of some sort? I thought everyone was agreeing to that, even if they have their workarounds.

I feel about this the way I felt about the fire pass when my Fire was slaughtering everything and then they decided to make her more powerful. If they decided to make Telep even more powerful, awesome.

That being said, I would like to see the powers in Telep that are actually broken, like Congress of Selves, get fixed. I would also like to see other powersets get more diversity so you could do the same thing on them, as well.