Munitions needs to be brought back.

diggot

Currently Munitions is in a really bad state. From being overperforming to becoming one of the
worst powers is quiet a big step and i doubt the changes were given any testing before applied.

About 4 years back, i would constantly end up in the top 3 on the Destroyer event, every time,
due to my TGM build with 2xAD, 600+ int with Quarry and a high crit.. sure it was boring to
spam TGM constantly... but that's ALL that munitions has to offer currently.. TGM TGM TGM.

Assault Rifle has never been a good sustitute, always severely outperformed by TGM.
Air Strike was a good support-dps power but that was nerfed.. unsupported.
Sniper Rifle has always been the joke of Munitions because basically you fire ONCE..
and then you get interupted from any damage done.
Execution shot is a joke, it's considered a "melee" power that has a long cooldown and no damage.
Burst shot is a waste of time because everyone with Muntions has TGM, and grenades takes care of Armorpen.

And since TGM was utterly destroyed by the nerfhammer, and it being the only viable singeltarget power,
it left Munitions is a state where everything was left wanting for more.

The biggest issue with Munitions is it's lack of viable powers. I'm not saying i want Munitions to be
the end-all dps. But it should be about more then "You must have TGM".. If my gear is up-to-par with
correct mods for the build and i'm not screwing up on Cosmics (which are the build-testers),
Munitions should be able to compete with MA, PA and TK.. but currently it's left in the dust.


Frankly i seriously doubt any proper testing was done before the "nerf patch" was added,
because any normal person would've seen how utterly useless Munitions was, compared to
most other "power trees", once the patch would've been applied.

Now.. i'm not math genious. But i can see when a power like Sniper Rifle, get easily outperformed
by pretty much any other dps-power. It's basedamage with Rank3 is laughable, it it's crit-damage
isn't much better. Ebon Ruin does more damage, same range, but isn't interupted.

Please give Munitions a break and let it come back up to the other powers.

spinnytop

Are you sure about that?

baelogventure

I agree with this, buffs for Munitions.

jaazaniah1

Apply the nerf bat to all the OP powersets and bring them down to Munitions level instead!

pantagruel01

Honestly, PA needs a nerf, but it's expected that ranged dps is lower than melee.

blockwave

If you compare munitions to the revamped powersets, (Fire, Electricity) it's seriously underperforming, but eh, what can you do ! (If you want to boost your dmg, go buy my ascii r9 mod for 10k !)

theravenforce

diggot said:

Currently Munitions is in a really bad state. From being overperforming to becoming one of the
worst powers is quiet a big step and i doubt the changes were given any testing before applied.

Currently, there are sets out there (Earth for example) which need more help than Munitions does. So I'm not sure I agree that Munitions is "in a really bad state". There may be some things which could be added or changed in the set to make 100ft play more desirable (example, not sure why the melee focus in Munitions was taken a bit too seriously in the last update for the set, but it fuels a certain type of play so it's not too weird).

diggot said:

Assault Rifle has never been a good sustitute, always severely outperformed by TGM.
Air Strike was a good support-dps power but that was nerfed.. unsupported.
Sniper Rifle has always been the joke of Munitions because basically you fire ONCE..
and then you get interupted from any damage done.

I think AR, because it doesn't lock you down like some 100fters or have a lower range like 2GM, it was always going to do less damage generally than 2GM which has half the range.

Strafing Run is actually Gadgeteering...and has a history of being a bit OP, but that's another set's problem so.

Sniper Rifle, I agree here. It's always annoyed me, especially considering the 120ft range isn't actually too much trouble for enemies to close whilst you are charging (if they see you). Sniper Rifle could be better but it is a bit difficult to get right apparently.

diggot said:

Execution shot is a joke, it's considered a "melee" power that has a long cooldown and no damage.
Burst shot is a waste of time because everyone with Muntions has TGM, and grenades takes care of Armorpen.

Hmm, last I checked Burst Shot applies the armor pen debuff...so it works pretty well with 2GM since 2GM no longer innately penetrates defenses.

I could be wrong but isn't the grenade application of armor pen single target only? Whereas Burst Shot can possibly be multiple targets?

diggot said:

The biggest issue with Munitions is it's lack of viable powers. I'm not saying i want Munitions to be the end-all dps. But it should be about more then "You must have TGM".. If my gear is up-to-par with
correct mods for the build and i'm not screwing up on Cosmics (which are the build-testers),
Munitions should be able to compete with MA, PA and TK.. but currently it's left in the dust.

I think the viability depends on what you are trying to build for. If you are trying to build for something to take care of enemies at all ranges...that is possible within Munitions to an extent which is not possible in many other singular sets (e.g. Bullet Ballet, Sniper Rifle, 2GM & AR all in one build)

diggot said:

Frankly i seriously doubt any proper testing was done before the "nerf patch" was added,because any normal person would've seen how utterly useless Munitions was, compared to
most other "power trees", once the patch would've been applied.

Munitions last update was geared towards kinda forcing the set into a 50ft to melee slot, which is probably why longer range powers were left alone.

So it's probably better to compare Munitions to Fire, not sets which allow for less movement whilst DPSing and have greater range.

diggot said:

Now.. i'm not math genious. But i can see when a power like Sniper Rifle, get easily outperformed
by pretty much any other dps-power. It's basedamage with Rank3 is laughable, it it's crit-damage
isn't much better. Ebon Ruin does more damage, same range, but isn't interupted.

Please give Munitions a break and let it come back up to the other powers.

Nor am I a math genius but doesn't Sniper Rifle have a higher range than Ebon Ruin? Also, I don't think that many other DPS powers should be compared to Sniper Rifle, as most of them aren't charge only or interrupted by damage.

Sniper Rifle could be better, there's no doubt about that. It is one of the older powers in Munitions which hasn't been touched in a very long time IIRC.

bluhman

I haven't had that bad of an experience using Assault Rifle. Though I will say it has one of the worst advantages in Uncompromising (bonus damage for Furious stacks when there is no good way to stack it outside of... Uh, TGM.)

But you're right. What really gets me is why two pistols and an assault rifle have to be so dramatically stronger than any other gun. Really they should've just made it so that the guns basically act how they would in an FPS. Why you gotta charge a sniper rifle fully? Maybe it should have a chance to miss if you take hits. Maybe charging it increases crit rate. And why's the shotgun have the force of an entire hurricane behind it, when what you really want to use it for is to fill someone full of shrapnel?

blockwave said:

If you compare munitions to the revamped powersets, (Fire, Electricity) it's seriously underperforming, but eh, what can you do ! (If you want to boost your dmg, go buy my ascii r9 mod for 10k !)

From a personal standpoint I think all three of them are pretty balanced in respect to each other. Muni's energy unlock is extremely easy to set up, it has long range, mobility, and its usage in other builds is massive (Might/Muni or MA/Muni builds work extremely well). Fire's zoning game is a shadow of its former self with the one fire-patch limit and it has always lacked range. Also because of Hydra it's impossible to maximize its damage without a power unlock! Electricity's Lightning Arc is literally unusable if you don't have Ball Lightning. Ionic Reverb requires circuits to constantly be forming and negative ions to keep toggling to work. Unless you have insane energy stats, you just can't maintain Lightning Arc without it. Combine that with the fact that basically none of the other powersets even think about using electric damage (i mean aside from wind, but why would you gimp yourself like that?), and how's about that for build inflexibility?

The end result is that all three of the sets come out to about the same damage (each one's got some kind of DoT effect or effects running from either a debuff and/or pets, and then is dealing roughly 2k damage per tick on the maintain. Honestly take a look at all four TGM, AR, LA, and Incinerate. They have very similar base damage values.) One can't do it beyond 50 feet, another requires extremely specific powers, and neither of those aforementioned ones can even move while attacking.

Munitions doesn't seem that bad off to me as far as how its core components work together. My only gripe is the lack of flexibility in-set, concerning something like choice in gun. Which is really odd, because it is by far way more flexible in terms of build potential than most of the set overhauls have been so far.

wrathsoul1

The amount of people who does not know that Sniper Rifle is an attack meant to be used to start a fight is too damn high.

pantagruel01

wrathsoul1 said:

The amount of people who does not know that Sniper Rifle is an attack meant to be used to start a fight is too damn high.

The problem is that a once per combat power, unless it does way more damage than sniper rifle actually does, is not worth a power slot.

bluhman

If Sniper Rifle did more DPS than Assault Rifle then there'd be tons of super-long-range DPSers that'd never fight anything within 100 feet, since in an actual DPS situation with a tank you wouldn't want to be taking damage anyways. Then there'd also be the forcefield exploiters that'd just pop a shield before charging up a sniper.

I still think I'd be game for repeated Sniper shots doing greater DPS than AR, basically turning it from "oh fire this once to do burst damage I guess" to "extremely vulnerable long-ranged DPSer that cannot do damage if being hit at all". It just feels like a fair tradeoff for the vulnerability to interrupt and immobility, and applying a shield each time you want to even use it seems like it would counterbalance the damage benefit. Also the necessity to close in regardless to apply armor-piercing. Even with a damage edge it'd basically never see use outside of content that guaranteed tanks showing up.