The MInd AT. Issues and solutions.

polloadrazar

Hello!

Im just playing with some ideas within the Mind AT. That I would love to get some input on:

I think the Mind AT needs 2 more power elections, as follows:

Level 14: Manipulator as an election, so he can choose between it, and Compassion.
Level 30: Resurrect (from any other Framework, but would be better creating a new one for mental powers). So he can choose between a Rez or Ego Hold

With this simple changes he could work as a proper CCer, or as a proper Healer. Im specially talking about cosmics.
I know that right now a Mind can, in fact, do the CC, or heal... but it seems kind of sad to be a CC without Manipulator, or a Healer without Ressurrect.

Am I crazy?

criswolf09

You aren't crazy. I also want a revive power for Telepathy but since it is a touchy subject talking about this powerset the best idea is hope that its powerset is reviewed soon and the AT updated as it has been happening slowly over time every 2 months.

polloadrazar

Oh.... "is a touchy subject talking about this powerset". Didnt kow that, kind of a nub here... sorry U_U
I didnt want to strike any nerve, specially regarding the creationg of any new power, or framework revision, just commenting on ideas that I think could help what I consider a promising but underperforming AT.

Now im somewhat scared to say anything about the Devastator AT xD

markhawkman

Say what you will. being "touchy" just means there are people who will happily post multi-page rants about why they think things were better before it was "nerfed"

avianos

Don't worry OP, both your feedbacks are extremely popular since a lot of people have requested The Mind AT to be update in such terms

Telepathy has a huge history of being a dissapointing underwelming set with each "update" that's why it's considered a "touchy" subject,
a lot of players who love Telepathy heroes are disappointed with the current state of telepathy​​

pantagruel01

The weaknesses of the Mind as a CCer aren't really related to not having Manipulator.

polloadrazar

pantagruel01 said:

The weaknesses of the Mind as a CCer aren't really related to not having Manipulator.

Could you please elaborate?
You mean the problem to survive the storms and the need for a pull, or other issues?

Could those issues be resolved by changing anything else?

theravenforce

polloadrazar said:

Oh.... "is a touchy subject talking about this powerset". Didnt kow that, kind of a nub here... sorry U_U
I didnt want to strike any nerve, specially regarding the creationg of any new power, or framework revision, just commenting on ideas that I think could help what I consider a promising but underperforming AT.

Now im somewhat scared to say anything about the Devastator AT xD

As one of the most vocal people about Telepathy on these forums...I will say that Telepathy has always seemed to be a "struggle" power set, in the sense that it's not had the best of treatments at the hands of various Development Teams.

This of course is subject to perception, if you think that actually reducing the damage, debuffing potential and mechanics of various powers within the set is not a nerf (when it wasn't that powerful to begin with in most instances), then that's what you think.

If you think otherwise...you were (translation "I was") hounded for it on forums by various different people who just wanted "Telepathy players" to shut up about it.

There was a time when people (myself included) would joke that it was secretly the most hated power set in CO and some people took it as intended (a joke), others took it more seriously and it kinda went to the left.

There was a mini-divide of sorts, nothing major but vastly differing opinions from a few players like me who wanted (and still want) Telepathy and Crowd Control to work better in CO and others who believe that since Telepathy can be used to CC Ape Hearts and Ice Hounds in Cosmic Situations, that the set is "fine".

There have been COUNTLESS discussion threads and suggestion threads about it (I had a pretty big thread about it and Crowd Control and that was, as far as I can tell, deleted, despite not breaching forum rules.)

And yes, I have engaged in multi thread, multi page discussions/arguments with various different players over the years, from those with a genuinely different approach/opinion and those who decided to act in a less than pleasant manner.

If you do your "research" (if you are really interested...it wasn't that great arguing that stuff nor typing about nerfs), you can make your own judgement on if Telepathy's utility and overall feel was better now or before it was nerfed. (I encourage you to make your own mind up, if you are that into Telepathy in CO)

As for the set's future, who knows? It's brother set, Telekinesis was actually treated very well by the current Development Team which shocked some who were used to the whole "Mentalist sets are gonna get trashed lol" vibe, so maybe there is 'hope for Telepathy'

I'll be there (hopefully) to see what the Developers decide to do to Telepathy, if anything at all, when it happens.

theravenforce

polloadrazar said:

pantagruel01 said:

The weaknesses of the Mind as a CCer aren't really related to not having Manipulator.

Could you please elaborate?
You mean the problem to survive the storms and the need for a pull, or other issues?

Could those issues be resolved by changing anything else?

The Mind AT has three holds, which is more than enough to classify it as a CCer, however...much like the Telepathy Set, it lacks direction.

It tries to be 'Standardized Support sans Rez' by having some mandatory offense for leveling, healing others, buffing others and some CC ability.

But because it isn't purpose built for one role, it kinda doesn't really excel in any of those fields (bar CC perhaps, in comparison to other support AT's?), I suspect that *may* be what Pantagruel is hinting at but, I'm sure he'll correct me and actually explain.

The Crowd Control System in Champions Online (click link for a page I wrote on it for the CO wiki), has various issues, so it is likely that either the system will be adjusted in some way (positive or negative) to attempt to rectify the current system's flaws.

Crowd Control has always been tied heavily to PvP (a small part of CO) as well, since the real impact of CC abilities only change slightly with the ranking changes of enemies in games, the only ones who are really immune to Crowd Control are "Legendary and Cosmic Rank enemies".

Players have the potential for a phenomenal amount of resistance to Crowd Control, particularly in PvP.

1) Players can fully block Crowd Control from other players provided; they have good timing, have status bar awareness and their block is not disabled.

2) Players can actively struggle out of Crowd Control effects which have some level of lock down attached to them (Paralyze, Incapacitate, Sleep and Root)

3) Players could simply wait out the duration since even just standing there reduces the duration of a CC effect.

PvE resistance for ALL CC abilities is a bit more complicated though (see link).

--

On the original note for your request/suggestion...

Definitely not crazy.

Manipulator option (if Manipulator is still what it is today) for Mind AT would be really good.

A rez, depending on the desired (by Developers) interpretation of what Telepathic powers can accomplish...it's a possibility if the Telepathy Set is reviewed in future.

I've made too many suggestions all over these forums about Telepathy, if there's any indication that the set will be poked in a positive sense...it's definitely something to suggest/highlight

pantagruel01

polloadrazar said:

Could you please elaborate?
You mean the problem to survive the storms and the need for a pull, or other issues?

Could those issues be resolved by changing anything else?

The mind lacks a stun power, which is very important for certain types of CC (unfortunately, there are no good stun powers in the telepathy set) and lacks a good bridging hold (an issue with the current hyperactive doggies). It also has no active defense, without which it's tough to solo pull dogs.

rajakaji

I haven't extensively played the Mind yet, though it's on my agenda. But one of my main issues with CC in CO is that a lot of holds seem to be "mini-pets" that tend to "die" relatively quickly while everyone else is dealing damage. Ice Cage, Grasping Shadows, etc. If I'm getting the terminology right from the master pet post, I'd like it if they functioned more as an "entity" summon (can't be targeted and don't have hp). Though that might not be how the Mind works, so none of that might make any sense to the topic at hand.

polloadrazar

pantagruel01 said:

The mind lacks a stun power, which is very important for certain types of CC (unfortunately, there are no good stun powers in the telepathy set) and lacks a good bridging hold (an issue with the current hyperactive doggies). It also has no active defense, without which it's tough to solo pull dogs.

I have a Mind, and I have played it enought to have legion set and a world circuit pvp title, so Im aspiring to make it a CCer some day.
For what I have investigated, the Stun problem you mention is tackled with Ego Storm with Malevolent Manifestation, that gives you the bridging hold and time to properly charge Sleep, using Ego Hold if a dog separates/is late. But, again, I have necer CCed dogs and Im not sure if this is accurate or even possible. Ill apreciate input on this.
In any case, it seems that you rather have an election of a stun attack like the Thunderclap of Might.

The "solo pulling" of the dogs is an issue that I give to you. You are a 100% right. But for me that just means creating a job for a tank, and im pro job-creation (lol). No, for real now... I have seem enought CCers kindly asking for a pull to not consider it a problem

pantagruel01

rajakaji said:

But one of my main issues with CC in CO is that a lot of holds seem to be "mini-pets" that tend to "die" relatively quickly while everyone else is dealing damage.

There aren't actually any holds that function as mini-pets (ice cage is a root). Holds die when everyone else is dealing damage because that's how paralyze and sleep type holds are designed to function. Only stuns (which as I noted above, telepathy doesn't really have) are not removed by damage.

polloadrazar

rajakaji said:

I haven't extensively played the Mind yet, though it's on my agenda. But one of my main issues with CC in CO is that a lot of holds seem to be "mini-pets" that tend to "die" relatively quickly while everyone else is dealing damage. Ice Cage, Grasping Shadows, etc. If I'm getting the terminology right from the master pet post, I'd like it if they functioned more as an "entity" summon (can't be targeted and don't have hp). Though that might not be how the Mind works, so none of that might make any sense to the topic at hand.

I have somewhat played my Mind and the holds of the mind are somewhat different.
Sleep paralyces one enemy on tap, and in AoE on charge. But its a sleep, you will awake the enemy with most of attack powers
Ego Hold is of the kind of hold you mention, it brokes little by little by your attacks.
Ego Storm is an AoE maintain that Incapacitates on every 1 second pulse. And can be improved to a Toggle that you can drop and move.

I love the Mind AT, and I have used it in old AT pvp... I think before the nerf? Im unsure... but I can tell you it was awesome... In pve tho, it lacks enought dps to solo with room, and while you can keep yourself alive, and play with CCing your enemy and Ego Sprite them... you wont level fast XD

polloadrazar

theravenforce said:

On the original note for your request/suggestion...

Definitely not crazy.

Manipulator option (if Manipulator is still what it is today) for Mind AT would be really good.

A rez, depending on the desired (by Developers) interpretation of what Telepathic powers can accomplish...it's a possibility if the Telepathy Set is reviewed in future.

I've made too many suggestions all over these forums about Telepathy, if there's any indication that the set will be poked in a positive sense...it's definitely something to suggest/highlight

Thanks for the possitive input!!!
I wont comment on the deep analysis you do of the Mentalist Framework since im really just a nub brainstorming suggestions, but im prone to recognice you seem to have legit arguments on that front.