Help with Infernal DPS

joonabug42

Hello! I've been having a lot of fun leveling my infernal character so far but the build I'm currently using, while great for alerts and leveling, probably isn't going to cut it when it comes to Cosmics and other end game stuff. Since this is the first time I've really tried making my own build I looked through Kamo's guide and used his example Ice dps as a template and would like some comments on how well this might work.

Veronica Cole - Freeform
v2.3.2-28

Super Stats
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Recovery (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Impulse (Int: 10, Ego: 10, Rec: 8, End: 10)
Level 6: Indomintable (Ego: 8)
Level 9: Worldly (Ego: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 12: Tireless (Rec: 8)
Level 15: Academics (Int: 5, Ego: 5)
Level 18: Brilliant (Int: 8)
Level 21: Negotiator (Int: 5, Rec: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Infernal Bolts
Level 1: Infernal Blast (Rank 2, Virulent Propagation)
Level 6: Pestilence (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Aspect of the Infernal
Level 11: Eldritch Shield (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Masterful Dodge
Level 20: Condemn (Rank 2, Corrupting Force)
Level 23: Lock N Load (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Defile (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Crashing Incantation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Mephitic
Level 35: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 38: Rebirth
Adv. Points: 36/36

Travel Powers
Level 6: Mind Blink (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Arcane Flight

Specializations
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (1/3)
Ego: Aggression (2/2)
Ego: Follow Through (2/3)
Ego: Sixth Sense (3/3)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Find the Mark (2/3)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)

flowcyto

It looks like that build could work, though I'm unsure what your planned rotation is (if alternating between IBlast and Defile then you may want IBlast at R3 for single targets, but if mostly spamming Defile then the blast's adv to refresh Debilitating Poison is nice), and Mephitic scales more w/ End than Rec. I also assume ur focusing on Int here.

joonabug42

Thanks for the feedback! I was planning on spamming Defile with this setup on a one IBlast to two Defile ratio, maybe three if energy turned out not to be an issue, so basically start off with Condemn, then the rotation. I hadn't looked far enough down the power description for Mephitic to read the bit about it scaling less off of Rec though. Ugh.

I've been leveling with a build where I've been alternating between Infernal Blast and Defile partly based off of one that avianos posted in End Game thread, but I had changed out the superstats from that one for more Con for more of a safety cushion while leveling. I knew it wasn't really going to be stellar at end game content so thought about trying out remaking the build myself,

As a side note, changing the powers to cast from the chest make it look like my character is throwing a minor tantrum every time I'm charging a power up.

Since I'm already used to alternating, perhaps I should go with what I already have but with the superstats and talents switched back to the way they were set up in the build avianos posted.

Veronica Cole - Freeform
v2.3.2-28

Super Stats
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Endurance (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Scourge (Con: 10, Ego: 10, Rec: 10, End: 8)
Level 6: Shooter (Dex: 5, Ego: 5)
Level 9: Daredevil (Ego: 5, End: 5)
Level 12: Accurate (Dex: 5, End: 5)
Level 15: Amazing Stamina (Rec: 5, End: 5)
Level 18: Impresario (Dex: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 21: Worldly (Ego: 5, Rec: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Infernal Bolts
Level 1: Infernal Blast (Rank 2, Virulent Propagation)
Level 6: Mephitic
Level 8: Pestilence (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Aspect of the Infernal
Level 14: Will-o'-the-Wisp
Level 17: Defile (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Epidemic (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Voodoo Doll (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 32: Rebirth
Level 35: Lock N Load (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 38: Crashing Incantation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Adv. Points: 36/36

Travel Powers
Level 6: Mind Blink (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Arcane Flight

Specializations
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Follow Through (3/3)
Ego: Sixth Sense (2/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Avenger: Ruthless (2/2)
Avenger: Round 'em Up (3/3)
Avenger: Surprise Attack (2/2)
Avenger: Preemptive Strike (3/3)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)

kamokami

joonabug42 said:

Thanks for the feedback! I was planning on spamming Defile with this setup on a one IBlast to two Defile ratio, maybe three if energy turned out not to be an issue, so basically start off with Condemn, then the rotation. I hadn't looked far enough down the power description for Mephitic to read the bit about it scaling less off of Rec though. Ugh.

The highest DPS rotation is:
tap IBlast -> full charge Defile -> tap IBlast -> full charge Defile

You can bind a key to force taps of a power, so you never accidentally charge it:
/bind T "powertrayexec 1 1 $$ powertrayexec 0 1"
(the above bind assumes that IBlast is located in the second powerslot in your powertray next to the energy builder. You can change "T" to be whatever key you want)

Once you get the gear to raise your crit chance to near 40%, swap to Avenger mastery and when you get the buff fully charge IBlast as well.

I suggest using Supernatural Power with EGO/Dex/Rec. SNP scales off Rec and Rec is generally a better energy stat than End. You just need to set up your gear such that 1 tick of SNP gives you more energy than the cost of a full charge Defile. This affords you the ability to run it endlessly without watching your energy bar or having any stutters in your rotation. At maximum Ego+cost discount, you won't have to slot any Rec mods but until you may have to slot one or two split stat mods to make it work.

Also in the posted build Crashing Incantation is not scaled by Pestilence, I'd suggest taking Toxic Nanites instead.

flowcyto

I think you meant Supernatural Power, lol.

I'd be okay w/ including an ult that could apply Overpower, even if the passive isn't boosting its dmg, but that's just me *shrug*.

kamokami

flowcyto said:

I think you meant Supernatural Power, lol.

I did. Fixed, thanks.

flowcyto said:

I'd be okay w/ including an ult that could apply Overpower, even if the passive isn't boosting its dmg, but that's just me *shrug*.

Could go with Enchanter so that the passive does boost its damage, but Pesti is just so good. I don't find Overpower Ults to be an optimal choice in DPS builds with attacks that use one damage type.

Overpower is great in builds that use attacks with multiple damage types (like an Enchanter setup with Toxic+Magic dmg) or on Support toons.

flowcyto

Yea, I guess it comes down to weighing added personal dps w/ something like Nanties vs. the utility of an ult's debuff, though I suppose the former is what you'd want for more optimal personal dps. Be nice if there was an actual Toxic dmg ult, but oh well.

joonabug42

kamokami said:

You can bind a key to force taps of a power, so you never accidentally charge it:
/bind T "powertrayexec 1 1 $$ powertrayexec 0 1"
(the above bind assumes that IBlast is located in the second powerslot in your powertray next to the energy builder. You can change "T" to be whatever key you want)

Once you get the gear to raise your crit chance to near 40%, swap to Avenger mastery and when you get the buff fully charge IBlast as well.

I suggest using Supernatural Power with EGO/Dex/Rec. SNP scales off Rec and Rec is generally a better energy stat than End. You just need to set up your gear such that 1 tick of SNP gives you more energy than the cost of a full charge Defile. This affords you the ability to run it endlessly without watching your energy bar or having any stutters in your rotation. At maximum Ego+cost discount, you won't have to slot any Rec mods but until you may have to slot one or two split stat mods to make it work.

Also in the posted build Crashing Incantation is not scaled by Pestilence, I'd suggest taking Toxic Nanites instead.

Thanks for the additional info! I really like the idea of switching out Crashing Incantation for Toxic Nanites (I didn't even now this power existed!). It seems like the only big fight I've been close enough to use Crashing on has been Kiga, so having something else to use really appeals.

I have a few more questions. For superstats/cost discount, what's the max? Should I bother slotting Dex at all? Finally, how does this look for the talent setup?

Veronica Cole - Freeform
v2.3.2-28

Super Stats
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Squall (Dex: 8, Ego: 10, Rec: 10, End: 10)
Level 6: Indomintable (Ego: 8)
Level 9: Worldly (Ego: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 12: Tireless (Rec: 8)
Level 15: Shooter (Dex: 5, Ego: 5)
Level 18: Agile (Dex: 8)
Level 21: Impresario (Dex: 5, Rec: 5)

Again, thanks to everyone for helping me get Veronica into fighting shape.

morigosa

Just a couple of minor notes:

Infernal Blast naturally refreshes poisons (including Debilitating Poison), so I'd advise taking IB to rank three. (The only argument I could see for Virulent Propagation is if you plan to, in AoE situations, apply Debilitating poison, then spread it, and only then switch to using Epidemic. In my experience, that sort of thing is overkill; a lot of extra effort for not much advantage. I generally find that anything I want to use AoE on dies fast enough that I don't care about trying to debuff everything.)

I would strongly advise using Concentration or Chilled Form instead of Aspect of the Infernal. The latter procs only on poison applications, which makes it unreliable, especially with Defile not having a guaranteed poison application. (Chilled Form would also open up the option of stacking Dex instead of Ego, which might be worth considering; ego primary has a bunch of specs that run off of secondary superstats...)

I also, personally, find that Endurance is a better super stat for working with Supernatural Power than Recovery is. The problem with stacking Recovery is that you end up with dead zones, where your energy is too low to use Defile, but still too high to proc your energy unlock. For an example, if you have 100 maximum energy, and a Defile tap costs 30 energy, then if you happen to end up with anywhere from 16 to 29 energy, you'll get no energy return from supernatural power, but still can't use Defile again. Pushing maximum energy from a high endurance (and, conversely, pushing cost reduction from gear and specs) works to close those gaps - though even for an Ego/End/Con or Ego/End/Dex sort of build, you'll still want -some- investment in recovery.

My infernal DPS character is Ego/End/Con, and uses a single-target combat sequence of (after applying debilitating poison once): tap Defile until Avenger Mastery procs, full-charge Infernal Blast, full-charge Defile, repeat. He doesn't actually quite have the energy return from Supernatural Power to reliably fuel a full charge of Defile, but as long as he's in melee range, he's guaranteed to get both energy unlock and form triggering off the Infernal Blast charge, and that's more than enough to keep things going.

kamokami

There are no dead zones in the setup and rotation I described:
SS: EGO/Dex/Rec
rotation: tap IBlast -> full charge Defile -> tap IBlast -> full charge Defile

morigosa said:

I also, personally, find that Endurance is a better super stat for working with Supernatural Power than Recovery is. The problem with stacking Recovery is that you end up with dead zones, where your energy is too low to use Defile, but still too high to proc your energy unlock.

That's because of your rotation. If you're consecutively tapping Defile then I could see how you'd stutter with a Rec setup. In the case of Defile taps you only need SNP to return more energy than the tap, which takes little to no rec investment and makes it better to slot END. But if you are maximizing DPS, Defile taps are not the way to go.

I'm assuming max DPS is what the OP wants. In which case, they want to maximize the number of hits that are buffed by Preemtive Strikes (best used with full charge attacks or attacks with long cds) and want to maximize their investment in damage buffing stats.

kamokami

joonabug42 said:

For superstats/cost discount, what's the max? Should I bother slotting Dex at all?

Go full Ego for all mods. You might need one Rec mod to make SNP return more energy than a full charge Defile. Don't slot Dex, just use a Gambler + DUC in your prim Offense or 2x Gamblers if you don't have a DUC.

Max stats? I have not bothered to get the exact figure but my ranged DPS typically run with 710-720 Ego.

joonabug42 said:

Finally, how does this look for the talent setup?

Looks good.

I would echo what @morigosa said regarding Infernal Blast (go r3) and the toggle form (swap to Chilled Form).

flowcyto

Yea, I misread the tooltip and thought IBlast's adv was needed to refresh Debilitating on the main target- which isn't true. I'd also agree to using a normal ranged toggle if mostly using Defile. IBlast can work well w/ AotI (and is ofc much cheaper than Defile), so it does depend on the rotation a bit.

joonabug42

Thank you so much guys. I'll make the suggested changes. Really loving playing this character. The auto-tap bind Kamo posted has been a huge help already as well.

To the powerhouse!

rtma

This is pretty much what I use to represent Corrosion, being chemical based Elemental Dragon he's using Poison as a distinguishing build, basic ranged synergy, your welcome.
Poison Build

morigosa

kamokami said:

There are no dead zones in the setup and rotation I described:
SS: EGO/Dex/Rec
rotation: tap IBlast -> full charge Defile -> tap IBlast -> full charge Defile

I don't see anything about that rotation that makes it inherently avoid dead zones - how does the math work out on that?

I mean, I guess I could see that working if a full charge of defile costs more than 85% of your maximum energy - but then you'd run into dead zones again the moment you teamed up with someone with Aura of Arcane Clarity...

kamokami

morigosa said:

I don't see anything about that rotation that makes it inherently avoid dead zones - how does the math work out on that?

You use a much cheaper power, the blast tap, to proc SNP instead relying on a Defile tap. Teaming with AoAC users is fantastic for charge rotations.

morigosa

That... doesn't actually help avoid dead zones.

If you just try to alternate Infernal Blast taps and Defile charge, there's no guarantee that any given IB tap will actually proc Supernatural Power, and you can end up trying to use Defile at a point when you don't have the energy for it.

Unless your actual attack sequence is "tap IB until SNP procs, then full-charge defile"?

Edit: Or, again, unless there's something going on here that I'm just not seeing. ...I should probably copy a character to PTR and just test there rather than pestering you for further explanation; if this is something you've tried and works, then presumably the math works out -somehow-...

***
Aside: I ran some numbers using my infernal character in-game, and yes, a strict IB-tap -> Defile-charge rotation - assuming the energy management is there to support it - would be slightly higher DPS than a strict Defile-tap rotation; how it compares to the -actual- rotation I use that weaves in IB-charge-with-avenger-mastery-proc & Defile-charge after IB is a more complicated question that I'm not really concerned with answering; I might be losing a few hundred dps, but my rotation is more fun for me, as there's stuff to respond to and it's not just hitting the same buttons in the same order all the time.

That said, it is a good argument for me to swap to something more like your rotation when there's someone with AoAC providing charge time reduction; with AoAC also providing cost reduction I should have the energy management for it.

kamokami

morigosa said:

That... doesn't actually help avoid dead zones.

Yes it actually does help quite a lot.

morigosa said:

I might be losing a few hundred dps, but my rotation is more fun for me, as there's stuff to respond to and it's not just hitting the same buttons in the same order all the time.

I'm not trying to convince you to change anything. Just telling you what's going on. Doing what's more fun for you is the point of the game so yeah...do that. The rotation I described was was for the benefit of the OP, for whom I assumed most fun = most DPS.

morigosa said:

That said, it is a good argument for me to swap to something more like your rotation when there's someone with AoAC providing charge time reduction; with AoAC also providing cost reduction I should have the energy management for it.

There is no argument. Do what's fun for you. End of story.

If maximizing DPS is what's fun and energy is in the way you can solve that with gear instead of waiting for AoAC.

citizenzero

Im using nightwarrior as my passive am i missing out by not using pestilence?

flowcyto

For Defile builds that use long charge times, NW is good too. I prob wouldn't make the switch unless you were retraining other things, perhaps.

citizenzero

Would using NW drop your damage in this build?

flowcyto

citizenzero#3567 wrote: »

Would using NW drop your damage in this build?

I don't know off hand. I'd don't think it makes a large difference either way, but you'd have to parse out the difference in the gear you want_have to tell for sure.

markhawkman

Just a general question: am I correct in thinking overpower is good for bosses because the damage resist debuff increases DPS of team mates?

vonqball

Has anyone tried a warden/avenger build with lash, iblast, and defile? Lash counts as a ranged combo now, so there looks to be some nice synergy there with avenger mastery.

citizenzero

Question answered earlier

jojenmaihem

kamokami wrote: »

You might need one Rec mod to make SNP return more energy than a full charge Defile.

The problem is the "new" SNP is wonky as hell... sometimes the EU gives energy sometimes don't give enough and others you don't get nothing, pair it with the "new" Concentration and you have hell in earth.