Any room for an old dodge tank in todays end game?

starflairex
starflairex Posts: 41 Arc User
Hey y'all. Just hoping to get some constructing feedback. I've never posted one of my builds before, so I feel I can learn a lot. I have a shredding dodge tank that holds up very well in PvE (most PvP is a stalemate, but I don't care much for PvP) but leaves a lot to be desired. He can't hold up to the cosmics (seems like common knowledge according to MC Zone). I don't know if I can do anything about that, or if I jut need to NOT use a dodge tank. I'm sure that we all want a tank to be able to handle ANYTHING, right? Is there any hope for the dodge tanks? Also just seeking general criticism. Sword Cyclone is cheesy as heck(unless I use invisible weapons for that Zangief feel), so I've considered using it as charge instead of a maintain. Anyway, I'm rambling. Fire away!

http://aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm?v=19&n=&d=1532AI235GN0B38000BD008E0064058O019K01FI058U098S037N037T03MQ00ON039D010ckr0Bbd438W

Outsider - Freeform

Super Stats
Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Master (Con: 10, Str: 10, Dex: 10, Rec: 8)
Level 6: Impresario (Dex: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 9: Agile (Dex: 8)
Level 12: Enduring (Con: 8)
Level 15: Covert Ops Training (Str: 3, Dex: 3, Con: 3, Int: 3)
Level 18: Acrobat (Dex: 5, Con: 5)
Level 21: Survival Training (Dex: 3, Con: 3, Pre: 3, Rec: 2, End: 2)

Powers
Level 1: Hawk's Talons
Level 1: Thundering Kicks (Challenge!)
Level 6: Viper's Fangs
Level 8: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Rank 2, Resurgent Reiki)
Level 11: Form of the Tempest
Level 14: Lightning Reflexes (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares, Challenge!)
Level 20: Sword Cyclone (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenge!)
Level 23: Steadfast
Level 26: Ego Surge
Level 29: Parry
Level 32: Masterful Dodge
Level 35:
Level 38:
Adv. Points: 17/36

Travel Powers
Level 6:
Level 35: Superspeed )

Specializations
Constitution: Fuel My Fire (3/3)
Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
Constitution: Deflection (3/3)
Constitution: Adrenaline Rush (2/2)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Offensive Expertise (2/2)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (3/3)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (1/3)
Guardian: Locus (2/2)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Tenacious (2/2)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)


I have enough Dex to hit a little over 98% dodge at the moment. Hawk's Talons are just for looks..Viper Fangs are for the debuff. Notice the 2 open power slots. That's probably part of my problem.

Comments

  • flowcyto
    flowcyto Posts: 12,114 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    Here's how I'd prob make a dodge tank that's less rng-reliant:

    (Unnamed Build) - Freeform

    Super Stats
    Level 6: Strength (Primary)
    Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
    Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

    Talents
    Level 1: The Master (Con: 10, Str: 10, Dex: 10, Rec: 8)
    Level 6: Covert Ops Training (Str: 3, Dex: 3, Con: 3, Int: 3)
    Level 9: Physical Conditioning (Str: 5, Con: 5)
    Level 12: Acrobat (Dex: 5, Con: 5)
    Level 15: Martial Focus (Str: 5, Dex: 5)
    Level 18: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
    Level 21: Impresario (Dex: 5, Rec: 5)

    Powers
    Level 1: Righteous Fists
    Level 1: Thundering Kicks (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenge!)
    Level 6: Lightning Reflexes (Rank 2, Rank 3)
    Level 8: Form of the Tempest
    Level 11: Steadfast
    Level 14: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Rank 2, Resurgent Reiki)
    Level 17: Thunderbolt Lunge
    Level 20: Shuriken Storm (Rank 2, Floating Butterfly, Challenge!)
    Level 23: Resurgence (Rank 2)
    Level 26: Masterful Dodge
    Level 29: Dragon's Claws (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenge!)
    Level 32: Antagonize (Rank 2)
    Level 35: Circle of Primal Dominion (Rank 2)
    Level 38:
    Adv. Points: 29/36

    Travel Powers
    Level 6:
    Level 35:

    Specializations
    Strength: Swole (2/3)
    Strength: Physical Peak (3/3)
    Strength: Brutality (2/2)
    Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
    Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
    Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
    Warden: Elusive (2/2)
    Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
    Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
    Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
    Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
    Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
    Mastery: Warden Mastery (1/1)

    Can alternate between TKicks for the dodge buff and Warden Mastery's Grit, and DC for burst dps/threat (get Challenge, not AMetab, on the latter). Last power slot is for w/e ya want. Gears for lotsa Con, and some Dex.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • pantagruel01
    pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Dodge tanks in current endgame are 100% or don't bother, at least for main tanks. Without absolute top gear that pretty much forces either Dex (brush it off; almost everything you need to dodge is at least a small AoE) or Sentry (Twist Fate).
  • flowcyto
    flowcyto Posts: 12,114 Arc User
    Did they fix Brush It Off to work w/ npc AoE?

    Anyways, the main reason I wouldn't try for 100% dodge is just cause its tough to maintain it and still hold aggro or not have it fall off due to short duration buffs. Its powerful if you can get there, but rather inflexible.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • pantagruel01
    pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    flowcyto said:

    Did they fix Brush It Off to work w/ npc AoE?

    Testing it does seem to work. There might be mistagged NPC powers.
    flowcyto said:

    Anyways, the main reason I wouldn't try for 100% dodge is just cause its tough to maintain it and still hold aggro or not have it fall off due to short duration buffs. Its powerful if you can get there, but rather inflexible.

    If you're not going 100% dodge there's not a lot of reason to go dodge tank at all.
  • flowcyto
    flowcyto Posts: 12,114 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    Well, you have the high-end experience I don't, so if you say so. I just recall you not recommending 100% dodge for Cosmics before, but maybe that was a diff user that was tackling that content and I was mistaken.

    Also, if you (or anyone else) have any parsed data for Brush It Off, that'd be great. I'm not sure if I can recommend it in builds w/ Dex PSS again w/o more data showing it actually works.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • pantagruel01
    pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    flowcyto said:

    Well, you have the high-end experience I don't, so if you say so. I just recall you not recommending 100% dodge for Cosmics before, but maybe that was a diff user that was tackling that content and I was mistaken.

    No, my opinions have changed after actually going to the trouble of creating a dodge tank. Dodge tanks are super-busy to play, and prone to dying instantly when you make a mistake, but they're very strong if used right.
    flowcyto said:

    Also, if you (or anyone else) have any parsed data for Brush It Off, that'd be great. I'm not sure if I can recommend it in builds w/ Dex PSS again w/o more data showing it actually works.

    I've done some testing, it does seem to work, though I wasn't very fond of it, mostly because there's no easy way to fit hold or knock resistance into your gear, so the con tree is invaluable for that.
  • flowcyto
    flowcyto Posts: 12,114 Arc User

    flowcyto said:

    Well, you have the high-end experience I don't, so if you say so. I just recall you not recommending 100% dodge for Cosmics before, but maybe that was a diff user that was tackling that content and I was mistaken.

    No, my opinions have changed after actually going to the trouble of creating a dodge tank. Dodge tanks are super-busy to play, and prone to dying instantly when you make a mistake, but they're very strong if used right.
    I had a 100% dodge tank build too; I dropped it for those reasons- didn't like all the upkeep and funneling so much into Dex. It is amazing mitigation if you can hit it, but I didn't dig the playstyle that much. Guess I just have a bias against it *shrug*

    flowcyto said:

    Also, if you (or anyone else) have any parsed data for Brush It Off, that'd be great. I'm not sure if I can recommend it in builds w/ Dex PSS again w/o more data showing it actually works.

    I've done some testing, it does seem to work, though I wasn't very fond of it, mostly because there's no easy way to fit hold or knock resistance into your gear, so the con tree is invaluable for that.
    Yeah I still prefer Con PSS for tanks too. I was speaking more for dps builds using Dex PSS, since the t1 options aren't that great imo.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • morigosa
    morigosa Posts: 707 Arc User
    I've made a dodge tank, and successfully tanked for Kigatilik and Teleiosaurus; I'm confident I -could- tank Eidolon with that character, but that fight only needs two tanks, so I've not had an opportunity to try it yet.

    Using a dodge tank for Qwjibo is not advisable; it can probably be done, but Qwjibo has an attack that ignores all forms of defenses - the damage from the fire pools left by his breath cannot be dodged, blocked, or resisted, which leaves the only survival option being to get out of it as fast as possible and have enough health that it doesn't kill you outright. As such, I advise leaving the ape to other tanks and just DPSing there.

    First off, as others have said, you have to build for 100% dodge if you're aiming for cosmic tanking; anything less than that and you might as well go with some other passive. The reason is the way cosmics are built: they threaten tanks with high-damage instant-kill attacks; surviving as a tank means accounting for and making sure you can survive a worst-case scenario: which would be a roughly 225k (pre-mitigation, pre-damage-split) critical-hit bite attack from Teleiosaurus. That gets cut in half if you have two tanks in front of the dino, or down to a minimum of 1/3 (75k pre-mitigation) if you have three tanks. It's possible to build a character (str/con/wardicator, for example) that can survive that (or at least the two-tank case) with a r3 block active and no passive - but at that point you're better off with defiance and not having to count on RNG at all.

    The complication, of course, is that all of the cosmics have some trick up their sleeve that's deliberately designed to mess with 100% dodge builds.

    Kigatilik and (I believe) Eidolon have auras that reduce dodge chance by 3.3% - enough that if you're relying on Elusive Monk + Thundering Kicks (r3) and don't have a very strong AoPM boosting your dex, you can't maintain 100% dodge chance. In addition, Kigatilik has a periodic travel power suppression, so you can't rely on the Flippin' advantage on Swinging, either. You could probably survive by mixing in the Subtlety of the Tides advantage from Crashing Wave Kick, or Twist Fate from Sentry specialization, but both of those are very annoying to maintain - and SotT isn't even reliable; the whole point of going to 100% dodge is taking the RNG chance -out- of your survival. My solution, instead, is to use Fluidity (Flowing Like The River, r2), combined with Thundering Kicks (r3); it's not super-convenient, giving that you have to hold your block for a few seconds before you get the lingering effect, and that that lingering effect ticks down in effectiveness over time (meaning you have maybe four to six seconds to attack instead of the whole 10 seconds of the buff duration), but it does work.

    Dino's only complication is the sheer number of block-or-be-doomed mechanics; I advise using Fluidity again; if you get enough gear (use con primary, stack dex, get two piece justice set bonus, get legion primary defense for maximum dodge chance rating) you can get your dodge chance to 75% just standing there, and then (with r2 fluidity) you can turtle behind block as long as you need to without losing 100% dodge.
  • flowcyto
    flowcyto Posts: 12,114 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    Well, my fear about advising 100% dodge builds at all (aside from devs arbitrarily deciding to break them by imposing a cap), is that many of them rely on short duration buffs that can drop if fight mechanics force you to do other things that don't allow constant attack uptime- or if dps checks turn into an issue where ur threat gen isn't enough overall.

    I suppose Fluidity is one way of side-stepping all of that; w/ enough base dodge you can just block to get past 100% at any time. But w/o the actual dmgRes from a normal block that's not gonna be much better than a mitigation tank w/ a fully ranked normal block taking a non-dodged hit (ex. high-Con Defiance w/ Wardicator and 360% from blocking can net you above 500% total dmgRes when blocking, or you take only ~17% final dmg, vs. 20% from dodge + remedial defense from a high-Dex LR build using Fluidity). And there's -dodge% auras too? Ouch.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • pantagruel01
    pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    morigosa said:

    I've made a dodge tank, and successfully tanked for Kigatilik and Teleiosaurus; I'm confident I -could- tank Eidolon with that character, but that fight only needs two tanks, so I've not had an opportunity to try it yet.

    I've dodge tanked all of them. Of them:
    • All of the cosmics have hard-hitting (figure up to around 150k) attacks that can be split among up to three characters. This is problematic if you are solo tanking, because your dodge chance usually drops below 100% while blocking (unless you are very good with your block timing), and your base avoidance and mitigation is usually insufficient to survive a hit that large, though friendly auras (radiant and/or primal) can get you high enough. If you're not solo tanking, you will likely be okay.
    • Eidelon is the only cosmic to not shut off travel powers, so you can use travel or travel-like powers that boost dodge (Flippin', Feline Metabolic Serum, Amazing Grace). His big spike attacks are two charged attacks, one of which has no charge indicator; I'm not sure if they both split. His geysers can't be dodged (though you can move out of the way), and you have to be careful about how you place the geysers so you can get in and reactivate Elusive Monk before he attacks again. Likewise, the explosions from his green crystals cannot be dodged and are generally too much damage for a dodge tank to survive (defiance/invuln tanks can survive), so you have to either run out of the area (problematic for dodge chance, as he will still attack during this phase) or hope the dps deal with the crystals (which, on a good run, they will).
    • Kigatilik has a flat small dodge debuff (I think 3.3%). Obviously, if you get ice tombed you can't use elusive monk or thundering kicks; save your masterful dodge for that. His big splittable attack is a charged blast which he only uses occasionally.
    • Qwyjibo's big splittable attack is his punch, which he uses pretty regularly. Other than that, the big hazard to Qwyjibo is his fire breath: it creates a fire patch that does something like 6-7k (ignores defenses) per tic if you're in it, and at the end of the maintain it does a knockback. In addition, he has a big boom attack that does a knockdown and an irresistible repel. You can avoid the fire patch by aiming him a bit to one side (block the fire breath to avoid knockback) and then changing his facing when he's doing his big boom attack.
    • Teleiosaurus's big splittable attack is her bite, which for some reason has higher damage than the other cosmics (I've logged hits in the 200k range against solo tanks). In addition, her fire breath, if not blocked, debuffs both defense and dodge chance, and you have to deal with the hatchling using holds and knockbacks as well as the mother using them. As such, solo tanking the mama will usually end when you make a mistake and instantly die; if you've got split tanks it's not too bad.
  • morigosa
    morigosa Posts: 707 Arc User
    Yup. Kaizerin has shown significant hostility to the notion of a 100% dodge build - I didn't record the exact words, but the last conversation I had on the topic included claims that it "trivialized" tanking and that it represented a non-standard build rather than being the only sane way to use Lightning Reflexes, so I won't be at all surprised if LR gets nerfed down to sub-PFF levels of utility at some point.

    The really sad part? All these anti-dodge-tank mechanics are limited to cosmic fights, which are literally the only places in the game where having 100% dodge matters - there's nowhere else in the game where a single un-dodged attack is going to one-shot you, and an LR tank in other content can work just fine with average mitigation rather than needing to care about worst-case survival.
  • pantagruel01
    pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    morigosa said:

    Yup. Kaizerin has shown significant hostility to the notion of a 100% dodge build.

    To be fair, dodge is really strong if you can get it to work.
  • starflairex
    starflairex Posts: 41 Arc User
    Loving the comments and suggestions, I appreciate it. I've been tinkering with the suggested builds. Man, it really sounds unappealing most of the time though. I've seen some tanks that use the force field and have dodge as a supplement. Seemed worth trying. Tested well in PH, but idk. Not sure why anyone would go with dodge as a supplement to FF as opposed to more defense other than BCR ticks and maybe focus stacks. Ah well. Still at the drawing board, but hot dang dodge just seems...unrewarding.
  • flowcyto
    flowcyto Posts: 12,114 Arc User
    To be fair, cosmic content aside, BCR/RR is similar to having Regen on top of ur passive when getting hit constantly. It can be a nice healing-related perk to being a dodge tank.

    I guess its not so much about dodge/LR as much as cosmic-level content seeming to be a race to the top to threaten geared tanks w/ "big-hit" styled mechanics, and this will inevitably disfavor any passive that isn't Defiance. Not doing that content myself, though, I'm just speculating here.
    ________________
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • morigosa
    morigosa Posts: 707 Arc User
    That speculation is exactly accurate. And outside of tanking cosmics, any defensive passive will work just fine, even the much-maligned PFF.

    Aside: though I don't recommend using Lightning Reflexes for leveling; it is the worst defensive passive when you're low level (which means it doesn't give much avoidance) and can't support it with decent gear (which means you're stuck with less than 70% dodge chance even including buffs).

    As for adding dodge on top of PFF: This is actually a good idea - gearing for a bit of dodge / avoidance is still the best way to reduce the average incoming damage; it's only fallen out of favor due to cosmics so heavily emphasizing worst-case survival. If you're not planning on tanking cosmics (and you shouldn't be planning on doing that with PFF anyway) then you've got a -lot- more room to let incoming damage average out.
  • starflairex
    starflairex Posts: 41 Arc User
    Supposing there is SOME value in dodge tanking..so long as it isn't cosmics? xD
  • pantagruel01
    pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    Supposing there is SOME value in dodge tanking..so long as it isn't cosmics? xD

    You can dodge tank cosmics. It's just difficult, particularly in the case of Teleiosaurus.
  • cptmassive1
    cptmassive1 Posts: 120 Arc User
    I tried building a CON PSS / DEX / STR UnarmedMA dodge tank for the original 3 cosmics and the mitigation never got anywhere close to defiance. I couldn't get avoidance up above ~85% before ramping it up (and then not to 100% IIRC) with entry-level gear (mix of heroic/merc). He has a rank 5 avoidance core in there and I am wondering if elusiveness or agility is the way to go for primary def. - which gives more for the money.

    Since I am using elusive monk I am giving up 60% to other R3 blocks plus another 35% (120% defiance - 85% avoidance from dodge) and that doesn't account for the occasional dodge that anyone gets. Plus I am losing HP and DEF compared to juggernaut tanks. Also, the damage put out (~1500 in PH) spamming the TK combo with occasional dragon uppercuts) isn't good enough for fast runs because he will sometimes not make 100K. Even with STR as SS maxing out CON ~400 and DEX ~150 allows only about 19%-20% STR melee damage bonus. That kills aggro too.

    I am still playing him occasionally for the challenge but really just for that. Dodge %s are fubar because I have had the % close to 200 in dino and been hit w/o getting a dodge at least 10-15% of the time (mix of bites, AoE). This toon can soak tank but could never solo dino like a defiance tank could.

    So would a maxed out DEF build with wardicator be a "deficator?"
  • pantagruel01
    pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    I tried building a CON PSS / DEX / STR UnarmedMA dodge tank for the original 3 cosmics and the mitigation never got anywhere close to defiance. I couldn't get avoidance up above ~85% before ramping it up

    The avoidance listed on your character sheet isn't the same as damage resistance: 80% avoidance reduces damage by 80% (so 100 damage becomes 20 damage), 80% damage resistances divides damage by 1.8 (so 100 damage becomes 56 damage). It's also in a different stack. I would generally not focus on avoidance rating for a LR build, your dodge percentage is way more significant.

    Dodge %s are fubar because I have had the % close to 200 in dino and been hit w/o getting a dodge at least 10-15% of the time (mix of bites, AoE).

    The only way to have a 200% dodge is masterful dodge, and that's limited duration. It also suffers somewhat from timing issues (whether or not you dodge is not calculated at the same time as damage resolution is done) and the dino's poison can't be dodged.
  • cptmassive1
    cptmassive1 Posts: 120 Arc User
    Ah, so avoidance is worth much more than DR going from your #s. That would make a substantial difference. But why not focus on getting as much avoidance as possible if you have dodge well over 100% from the TKs? Diminishing returns?

    I was able to get up to 193.5% dodge in the PH without any AoPM or anything. Just spamming TK with a few CWKs thrown in.

    http://s180.photobucket.com/user/duhtroll/media/screenshot_2017-03-23-19-26-26_zpsacov64zj.jpg.html

    Yeah, its photobucket because I am from 1993.

  • morigosa
    morigosa Posts: 707 Arc User
    Because you can't get to that level of dodge in a real fight. Your image shows you've got 20 stacks of the buff you get from failing to dodge an attack, so that's inflating your dodge chance by +100%. Those stacks clear instantly whenever you successfully dodge an attack, so your real dodge chance is only around 94%.
  • pantagruel01
    pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Yeah, I don't consider the Flying Lotus Blossom buff to be worth the trouble (just get r3), though you might also be tripping over the block-cancel bug in thundering kicks (if you block before the animation of thundering kicks finishes, it removes the dodge buff the power grants, and maybe removes flying lotus blossom as well. This is horribly annoying).
  • cptmassive1
    cptmassive1 Posts: 120 Arc User
    That explains quite a bit since there pretty much have to be blocks before animations are done. It seems the effectiveness of 100+% dodge must be like the %s for fusing mods. That forces changes in the build and how I play it.