make a tank?

chaelk · January 2017

I would like to make a melee tank. However, I usually play ranged, dps or support.
I level by missions. so I must be able to do everything myself
I don't use one build to level and then retcon at 40. What I have is what I keep.(ignoring the 8 retcons to get Ruff puff sorted out and that was by level 30)
My Behemoth is stuck at 25 because it is so slow to do anything, only have the laser swords and witch to get to 40 now.(ok I have a low boredom threshold)Spamming Fluff's Lifedrain is boring

I have no problem with being mixes of different types, I have a lot of odd combinations of powers. PA and Mentalist would have to be the worst one I did.

what sorts are there?
what stats are common?
what spec trees are common?
yes I have just tried looking through the ones here... Late is not a good time to do that.

Thank you for any help, as opposed to " get caterpillar tracks and a big gun"which was what I got in chat.

sterga · January 2017

Depends on what you want to tank. I can tank Clarence OKish with my farm toon, but pretty sure I'd be slaughtered VS a cosmic. It then depends on what kinds of powers you'd like to use. You have punching, kicking, various swords, a few claws, a chainsaw, chains, or even something like bullet beatdown.

Str pss is probably best, but con or dex can be good too. You could do something weird with Pre pss.

I'm guessing the most common spec tree is Str + Warden + Vind with Str or Warden mastery. Using Sentinel + Mastery and an appropriate mez has a lot of survivability with your high HP and helps the team out, but you lose damage.

Invuln or Defiance as the passive. LR isn't very popular. Regen can be OK in most content. PFF... hahahahahah. No.

chaelk · January 2017

Thank you Sterga that helps a lot.

pantagruel01 · January 2017

Well, the requirement of 'solo' doesn't really go with a tank as such, since tank is really only a meaningful role in group content.

sterga · January 2017

Solo at a reasonable speed and also be able to tank in group content? Clearly shenanigans.

pantagruel01 · January 2017

sterga said:
Solo at a reasonable speed and also be able to tank in group content? Clearly shenanigans.

Huh? No, you can perfectly well do that. It's just that tanking as such doesn't exist in solo content. In any case, a tank you can play up from level 1 is perfectly doable, but you'll have to specify what sort of tank you want.

servantrules · January 2017

Two things that will greatly help your leveling as mainly a melee tank build: an AoE and a Range power (preferably one with a 100 foot range). You need an AoE to deal with mobs (which is pretty much in any PvE mission). Whether you choose a melee range or a long ranged one is your prerogative, but choose one that deals reasonable damage.

A single Range power that can be spammed or charged gives you a reliable way to deal with enemies that prefer shooting you in the face. I use Defile myself (really good damage with a reasonable energy cost for the effect, and a DOT to boot), but there are other good ones.

rtma · January 2017

sterga said:
Invuln or Defiance as the passive. LR isn't very popular. Regen can be OK in most content. PFF... hahahahahah. No.

Mechanics wise, Invul and Regen are Consistent, Defiant requires a fair amount of CON and maintenance to see it's full potential so if you can't hold aggro you're missing out on Energy/Defense, LR isn't popular? probably cause Mechanic wise you're gambling with odds to actively mitigate damage while as I stated above Invul and Regen are consistent, and PFF, yeah, not much of a tank passive at the moment, this for clarity.

pantagruel01 · January 2017

The problem with LR is that in high end content, unless you maintain 100% dodge (which is a lot of work), you're vulnerable to being oneshotted, and against weaker stuff invulnerability performs better. Its average mitigation is actually really good, it's just not reliable like the other passives.

chaelk · January 2017

all good comments, thank you

morigosa · January 2017

The general advice above is all pretty solid, so instead I'll give you a couple example builds that almost (they do require a minor respec at level 8) fit your criterion:

First up is this: http://aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm?v=18&n=&d=1173WdEPQMAM341H000H205H503H90CND00H804NK01L705HE05HC00N9032900HH03BM0010gw3T3B0CAT

After level 8 (where you need to respec out of cleave) it should be smooth sailing; when I used this build it was tanking alerts by perhaps a bit after level 20... in melee dps role (albeit with judicious use of block at times; Endorphin Rush is only just barely adequate as a self-heal.)

For stats, you want enough strength to get to about 10% damage per stack of enrage, enough rec to keep your attacks going (I found around +50 to +70 to be a good number at level 40 - less in dps role, thanks to the energy return from Unstoppable, more in tank role), and everything else goes into con to feed juggernaut spec. Secondary stats, you want a good chunk of defense; the rest is season to taste - my version of this character focuses on damage output over tankiness and gears for crit chance & severity & cooldown reduction, but gearing for offense (to feed the wardicator loop) or primary superstat (to free up more main stat points for con without sacrificing too much strength) or cost reduction (again, to allow moving stat points from rec to con) aren't bad ideas either.

The choice of regen is because it's the easiest tank passive to swap to; if you're low on health and need to go defensive, swap builds and block until your health is stable; against anything that's not cosmic level that will generally be all you need.

Tanking using regen at a cosmic level does require a bit of skill, though; you'll be a lot more vulnerable to getting one-shot than someone using Invulnerability or Defiance, and against foes like dino will have to no more than half-charge your attacks to get block back up in time. On the other hand, it's also the best passive for tanking in situations where you don't know if you'll be getting heals, and the lingering shield from Ebon Void helps with not being one-shot; I've used this build to some success in TA as well as taking supporting roles in tanking cosmics (generally not the main tank, though, due to the lack of +threat advantages).

Pounce is the lunge of choice due to its knock-down; punting things all over the map with Annihilate can be fun, but it can also be annoying; pounce + eruption + full charge of Arc of Ruin will get three stacks of knock resist on your primary target and let you go to town without sending them flying.

* * * * *

If you want something that's a bit more tanky (at the cost of speed when soloing), consider something like http://aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm?v=18&n=&d=1183WdFPQMAM343H000H205H804H90i2900ND009A032D03HE0L2F00NC03HC00HH03BM0010gw3T3B0CAT instead.
* Replaces both passives from the first build with Invuln and Absorb Heat & swaps from Rec to End to better fuel Thermal Reverb.
* Swaps out Ebon Void for Antagonize - this build doesn't need the persistent shield quite as much, and Antagonize is just a fun block to use thanks to the speed boost.
* Drops Resurgence in favor of Flashfire to help keep clinging flames up; having two abilities that can instantly reapply it is useful when you're using Absorb Heat frequently and need the debuff back up for both energy management and annihilate damage - not to mention having it available again for your next burst of self-healing.
* And picks up a few Challenge! advantages to position the build as a bit more of a main tank type.

pantagruel01 · January 2017

Ah, yeah, it's tough to avoid a level 6-8 respec because a lot of the tier 0 powers you don't want in a build. Easiest probably with Bestial; something like this is workable at all levels (until level 17 you're going to be relying on spamming shred, but it's really not that bad dps). You can replace invulnerability with regen or defiance (defiance will free up some points). General tactic is spam shred until your target is at full stacks bleed, then use eviscerate to refresh bleeds/shredded and massacre for primary dps.
(Unnamed Build) - Freeform

Super Stats
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Endurance (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Rockstar (Str: 10, Con: 10, End: 10, , Rec: 8)
Level 6: Physical Conditioning (Str: 5, Con: 5)
Level 9: Boundless Reserves (Con: 5, End: 5)
Level 12: Bodybuilder (Str: 5, End: 5)
Level 15: Paramilitary Training (Str: 3, Con: 3, Rec: 3, End: 3)
Level 18: Jack of All Trades (All: 2)
Level 21: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Bestial Fury
Level 1: Shred (Rank 2, Penetrating Strikes, Challenge!)
Level 6: Supernatural Power
Level 8: Aspect of the Bestial
Level 11: Invulnerability (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Pounce (Furious Rush)
Level 17: Massacre (Rank 2, Bloody Mess, Challenge!)
Level 20: Eviscerate (Rank 2, Rank 3, Messy)
Level 23: Lacerating Cyclone (Rank 2, Vortex Technique, Challenge!)
Level 26: Antagonize
Level 29: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 32: Masterful Dodge
Level 35: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 38: Unleashed Rage (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Adv. Points: 36/36

Travel Powers
Level 6: Athletics (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35:

Specializations
Strength: Swole (3/3)
Strength: Physical Peak (2/3)
Strength: Brutality (2/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Offensive Expertise (2/2)
Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)

raighn · January 2017

To add onto the pointers provided above...

CON PSS is a great option if you wish to maximize your defensive potential as a tank. It's also a fairly decent option for LR tanks.
DEX PSS is almost required for LR tanks to reach 100% dodge.
STR PSS will give you a high defensive benefit while giving you the highest damage output as a tank.

Defiance will offer you the highest sustained damage mitigation out of all defensive passives, however it is high maintenance and fails against small attacks.
Invulnerability will provide you fairly decent damage mitigation, but is at its best against small attacks.
Regeneration will offer a similar level of protection as Invulnerability, however it will be less effective when taking rapid attacks.
Lightning Reflexes can offer significantly damage mitigation than Defiance high enough in-fact that it can even out mitigate Invulnerability against small attacks, but as with all RNG based systems it is unreliable and prone to fail at the worst possible moments.
Personal Force Field can actually provide a pretty substantial amount of defensive capability, but it requires a heavy investment in resistances from gear & specs due to it's lack of innate resistance. It's also the only defensive passive that requires you to take an AD to be reliable, due to it's reliance on Field Surge to provide sustain. But if built right PFF can effectively provide you with greater survival than even Lightning Reflexes, but it requires a substantial amount of maintenance and the stat investment could very well cost you significantly in damage.

chaelk said:

I have no problem with being mixes of different types, I have a lot of odd combinations of powers. PA and Mentalist would have to be the worst one I did.

I've tried that before... it was indeed a terrible idea... ended up retconning to PA + Gadgeteer Pets to keep the character's concept alive as much as possible since the power combination didn't quite work...

morigosa · January 2017

Raighn: You've got Con and Dex backwards for dodge tanks; Con PSS offers a higher dodge chance than Dex PSS does. It's possible to get to 100% dodge with either, but it's easier with Con.

(How does this work? It turns out that Deflection from Con PSS grants more dodge rating per point of dex than Quick Reflexes from Dex PSS does, and that just slightly outweighs the extra dexterity you can get from Dex PSS.)

kamokami · January 2017

morigosa said:
Raighn: You've got Con and Dex backwards for dodge tanks; Con PSS offers a higher dodge chance than Dex PSS does. It's possible to get to 100% dodge with either, but it's easier with Con.

(How does this work? It turns out that Deflection from Con PSS grants more dodge rating per point of dex than Quick Reflexes from Dex PSS does, and that just slightly outweighs the extra dexterity you can get from Dex PSS.)

Dex PSS gives you access to Brush It Off, which is a flat +20% to your dodge chance vs aoes. Pretty much every attack that has the potential to one-shot a tank is an AoE. I am considering going with LR on my tank

morigosa · January 2017

Last I heard, Brush It Off was bugged and nonfunctional. Has anyone tested it recently? (And for that matter, do we know if things like Teliosaurus' bite is even flagged as AoE in the first place? It does split damage rather than conventional AoE damage, so I wouldn't care to guess either way.)

flowcyto · January 2017

Last time it was tested, Brush It Off didn't seem to be working properly (though Warden's Elusive was):

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline/#/discussion/comment/2009315

This was a while back, though.

Still wouldn't really advocate for Dex PSS for any tank build, imo. Dex PSS's dodge/avoid options aren't great (and give up its best dps options), doesn't have Resilient or Con Mastery or Adren Rush or Fuel My Fire avail (nor ofc Juggernaut in Str PSS).

pantagruel01 · January 2017

The other option for LR is to not try for 100% dodge; a Str/Con Wardicator with Ebon Void and CoPD can survive nearly any attack even on a failed dodge.

flowcyto · January 2017

Yeah, I find that LR w/ high defense and maxHP is more well-rounded; even if its not as optimal/ideal mitigation as 100% dodge, its easier to aim for and work around. Even if that backbone can make any passive tanky, for LR it means you also get a nice self-heal in BCR/RR that procs quite more often than w/ other passives.

chaelk · January 2017

ok after trying (and failing again) to level my behemoth, I swapped him to FF. currently I have this, at 30, haven't spent things since 28.
energy is still a problem but i can fix that with utility gear at 40.
heals and active off/def would be good.
Headbutt can go. I got it because it was silly, mostly I;m charging haymaker or using the chain one to knock everyone together.

http://aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm?v=18&n=Annere Ne Calin&d=1137GSUZJHL4000J000J400J905JD08JA03JM0GJK01JE007B01NC03000000000000000026L21CIM0000

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Annere Ne Calin - Freeform

Super Stats
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Hero (End: 6, Rec: 6, Other Stats: 8)
Level 6: Diplomatic (Int: 5, Pre: 5)
Level 9: Investigator (Int: 5, End: 5)
Level 12: Prodigy (Pre: 5, End: 5)
Level 15: Finesse (Dex: 5, Pre: 5)
Level 18: Coordinated (Dex: 5, Int: 5)
Level 21: Accurate (Dex: 5, End: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Clobber
Level 1: Head Butt
Level 6: Iron Cyclone (Rank 2, Vortex Technique)
Level 8: Mighty Leap (Nailed to the Ground)
Level 11: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Shockwave (Challenge!)
Level 17: Haymaker (Rank 2)
Level 20: Enrage
Level 23: Bionic Shielding (Rank 2)
Level 26: Antagonize (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29:
Level 32:
Level 35:
Level 38:
Adv. Points: 19/36

Travel Powers
Level 6: Acrobatics
Level 35:

Specializations
Strength: Physical Peak (2/3)
Strength: Quick Recovery (1/2)
Strength: Aggression (2/2)
Strength: Brutality (1/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
Strength: Overpower (1/3)
Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Protector: Beacon of Hope (1/3)
Protector: Unrelenting (1/2)
Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
Protector: Debilitating Challenge (2/2)
Protector: Resolute (1/3)
HeroCreator is a character planner for Champions Online™ based on Kyle Sherman's PowerHouse

servantrules · January 2017

chaelk said:
ok after trying (and failing again) to level my behemoth, I swapped him to FF. currently I have this, at 30, haven't spent things since 28.

energy is still a problem but i can fix that with utility gear at 40.

heals and active off/def would be good.

Headbutt can go. I got it because it was silly, mostly I;m charging haymaker or using the chain one to knock everyone together.

Powers

Level 1: Clobber

Level 1: Head Butt

Level 6: Iron Cyclone (Rank 2, Vortex Technique)

Level 8: Mighty Leap (Nailed to the Ground)

Level 11: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)

Level 14: Shockwave (Challenge!)

Level 17: Haymaker (Rank 2)

Level 20: Enrage

Level 23: Bionic Shielding (Rank 2)

Level 26: Antagonize (Rank 2, Rank 3)

Level 29:

Level 32:

Level 35:

Level 38:

I'd suggest grabbing a self-heal early if you're leveling through missions or alerts. Conviction is usually the choice, though BCR and Resurgence work, too. Even in a group with a healer, a self-heal helps with survivability and practicality.

Also, ranking Defiance is often a waste, though it does help mitigate some moderate to high early damage, it quickly diminishes usefulness especially when you're wading in mobs. You could save those advantage points for other powers that need them.

jaazaniah1 · January 2017

If you take points out of Defiance you could add Endorphin Rush for Enrage.

Are you planning on taking an Energy Unlock? That affects what your 3rd SS could be. E.g. if you have some short CD powers you could take Int over Rec (I like Rising Knee with adv; quick CD knock which boosts some damage). If you are OK with applying clinging flames you could go End. E.g. Eruption provides a knock and can apply CF. If you have Invisible Weapons it can look like an upward punch.

Instead of Head Butt maybe Defensive Combo, instead of Shock Wave maybe Demolish for the debuff (can also knock with Adv).

If you are going to go for Protector Mastery try to take both MD R1 and Resurgence R2.

Just some ideas.

chaelk · January 2017

bionic sheilding i got already and I am up to level 30.
The character was at 24 when I swapped it to FF. The character is nearly 2 years old, that should give you an idea of what I think of the behemoth.

I got rid of demolish and defensive combo, I hated them in the behemoth.

The stats are just what the behemoth had, I just swapped con and str around.

Currently,
1. activate bionic sheilding.
2. jump in mobs. use iron cyclone to pull them together, do damage and get knock resistances.
3. punch any that are still alive,
4. or if there's a couple together, shockwave does it.

energy - i'll look at the unlocks but i didnt see many.I'll have another check after i've done hopping.
I have very few with int/end/rec as ss, since I've found i don't need them.
usually cost discount and end/rec in utility primary is enough .remission secondary
Unless those ones listed have a short cd, nope. and the remainders will be def/heals maybe an ultimate if i'm feeling suicidal

chaelk · January 2017

swapped iron cyclone for vicious cyclone, got resurgence instead of head butt and supernatural power. i use the cyclone enough to make it work.

raighn · January 2017

chaelk said:
swapped iron cyclone for vicious cyclone, got resurgence instead of head butt and supernatural power. i use the cyclone enough to make it work.

Vicious Cyclone is a better choice over Iron Cyclone even without SnP... You could also try out Lacerating Cyclone if the Poison cloud effect on Vicious Cyclone feels out of place on the character... And since it's from the Bestial powerset it will proc SnP still... Could also consider Mephic or Wild Thing instead of SnP to triger energy off Poison/Bleed applications...

chaelk · January 2017

up to 33, swapped rec for dex so now str/con/dex. iron cyclone working well to buildup knocks and knock resistance. energy not a prob with all the poisons, rush of battle in vind helping.
got masterful dodge, after finding exactly how little heals i get form bionic sheilding.. about 200. still got 2 more powers to buy so may get it back.

chaelk · January 2017

ok level 40, 2 more powers to get. 8 pts for ranks and mastery to choose.
possibly an interrupt, active off
http://aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm?v=18&n=Annere Ne Calin&d=1132GYaZUTS4111J000J905JD08JA00OF00JE04JM0HJK0JON03NC03OQ00EO010000000026Ky3bIm09gO

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Annere Ne Calin - Freeform

Super Stats
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Dexterity (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Hero (End: 6, Rec: 6, Other Stats: 8)
Level 6: Lasting Impression (Pre: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 9: Amazing Stamina (Rec: 5, End: 5)
Level 12: Prodigy (Pre: 5, End: 5)
Level 15: Investigator (Int: 5, End: 5)
Level 18: Negotiator (Int: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 21: Diplomatic (Int: 5, Pre: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Clobber
Level 1: Iron Cyclone (Rank 2, Vortex Technique)
Level 6: Mighty Leap (Nailed to the Ground)
Level 8: Defiance
Level 11: Supernatural Power
Level 14: Enrage (Endorphin Rush)
Level 17: Shockwave (Rank 2, Challenge!)
Level 20: Haymaker (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenge!)
Level 23: Resurgence (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Antagonize (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Rebirth
Level 32: Masterful Dodge (Rank 2)
Level 35:
Level 38:
Adv. Points: 28/36

Travel Powers
Level 6: Acrobatics (Rank 2)
Level 35: Flight (Rank 2)

Specializations
Strength: Physical Peak (2/3)
Strength: Quick Recovery (1/2)
Strength: Aggression (2/2)
Strength: Brutality (1/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
Strength: Overpower (1/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Tenacious (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
HeroCreator is a character planner for Champions Online™ based on Kyle Sherman's PowerHouse

then get to hunt through gear, Utility will be end/rec plus cost discount.
rest don't know whether to stack str/con def/off. ..whatever?

roughbearmattach · January 2017

To throw in an additional question: Do you want to have the option to be a "dog puller" against Kiga?

If so, you will need a reliable stun/interrupt with a short CD.

I didn't bother on my main tank (a lightning tank, by the way), but that means I can't help out when there is call for a dog puller.

chaelk · January 2017

sounds good, I have 2 slots left.any suggestions?

roughbearmattach · January 2017

If you take a stun or interrupt, and learn how to use it, you could pull dogs, too. Many folks do Thunderclap, but maybe Headbutt would work.

chaelk · January 2017

congratulations, brain lockup at using a headbutt to pull a dog... then i realized one that was stunned.

make a tank?

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