CCing is Fun (aka They Said it Couldn't Be Done aka CC/DPS)

pwestolemyname

So, after many months of mooching off the CCers, I decided to make one of my own to shoulder part of the burden. I was leveling a Telepath, anyway, so it was good timing. I tried making a standard CC/Tank, AoPM/Invulnerability, so I could be self-sufficient and not need a tank puller. It was a fine Ccer, but the thing was, it was basically useless at anything else. Couldn't really tank anything tougher than a Purple Gang henchie and damage was just pathetic. Plus, I already have a good DPS/Tank and Tank/DPS, so I'm good on tanks. So, I decided to try to make the unholy duality, CC/DPS. Everyone said it couldn't be done. They were kind of right.

Here is the build, with notes after:
Vice - Freeform

Super Stats
Level 6: Presence (Primary)
Level 10: Ego (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: Mind over Matter (Ego: 12, Pre: 12)
Level 6: Ascetic (Con: 5, Ego: 5)
Level 9: Lasting Impression (Pre: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 12: Shrug It Off (Con: 5, Pre: 5)
Level 15: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 18: Showmanship (Ego: 5, Pre: 5)
Level 21: Wordly (Ego: 5, Rec: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Psi Lash
Level 1: Ego Sprites (Slave Mentality, Challenge!)
Level 6: Ego Sleep (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Manipulator
Level 11: Telepathic Reverberation
Level 14: Mental Storm (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Ego Storm (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Masterful Dodge
Level 23: Telekinetic Assault (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Telekinetic Maelstrom (Rank 2, Inner Peace)
Level 29: Aura of Primal Majesty (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Arcane Vitality (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Ego Form (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 38: Force Shield (Force Sheathe)
Adv. Points: 36/36

Travel Powers
Level 6: Superspeed
Level 35: Flight

Specializations
Presence: Dominion (2/2)
Presence: Grandeur (3/3)
Presence: Moment of Glory (3/3)
Presence: Force of Will (2/2)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Retribution (2/2)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Mastery: Presence Mastery (1/1)

Her gear is currently as follows:
Legion Gloves of Healing / Distinguished Gloves of Offense
Distinguished Armor of Freedom
Legions Helmet of Efficiency
Cosmic Fang of Wrath
Onslaught Tights of Fitness
Onslaught Mask of Speed

The first big issue is that, because CC and DPS require significantly different things, I will likely need nearly two full sets of gear, each slotted for its specific role. I'm gearing for CC first, then we'll see.

Right now, in AoPM-Support role, her relevant stats are Pre 709, Ego 150, Con 205, HP 9009. Her Sleep/Paralyze duration is 56 seconds with 1 stack and 93 seconds with full 8 stacks of Manipulator. One benefit is that she can stack Manip outside of combat using Ego Storm. She has a hard time getting aggro from Kiga's dogs, so I usually use the Sleep->Paralyze, full-time mezz method. I am considering getting the OV gloves and/or a couple of Confront mods to help with aggro.

In Ego Form-Offense, stats are Pre 475, Ego 149, Con 200. With that high a Pre her Telep Reverb easily keeps her full on Energy, if I do it right. I almost always leave her EB turned off. Fully stacked on Manip, her DPS is around 2500 maintained. I think when she is fully geared out, I can get it up to about 3000. Sure, it is no Unleashed AT, but it is at least respectable and keeps her from ending up at the dead bottom of the lists.

I would not recommend this build to most people, it requires a lot of maintenance. When CCing dogs, you have to keep track of your Manip stacks and your health and their timers and your distance. I use a goodly number of devices, both offensive and defensive, to make up for the fact she's trying to do too many things. It is doable, but keeps you busy.

That being said, it is a lot of fun to play, both in Cosmics and in regular content. While CCing is not much needed in most content, it is still fun to see the mobs floating around doing nothing while you beat them down. She can “tank” pretty much everything except big bosses. My common routine is tap TK Maelstrom → 2x ES → maintained Ego Storm. That keeps the mobs held down for quite a while. Many times it will just kill them outright. But, if not, they are so close to dead, it doesn't matter if they wake up. She can solo pretty much all of QWZ by selectively mezzing opponents. It isn't super fast, but it is pretty easily doable.

Anyway, any suggestions, comments and obscene remarks are welcome.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

pwestolemyname

gradii said:

Neverwinter Online accomplishes CC DPS quite well with it's control wizard class which is one of the highest dps classes as well as being able to put out a very useful amount of CC.

Yeah, that's what I usually play whenever I'm in a D&D type game, online or offline.

raighn

Anyone that told you CC/DPS couldn't be done clearly never met me on any of my CCer builds... I've been running a "Telekinetic" (Force/Earth/Telekenesis) CC/DPS build for a while that quite honestly puts the damage of many of my pure DPS builds to shame all while keeping enemies on lock down... main problem with her is that her DPS is so high that I keep pulling off tanks >.<... Then I've got an Archery based CC/DPS who similarly does heavy damage while keeping enemies on lock down...

flowcyto

Some of my own examples of builds that mix CC and debuffing w/ dps (not optimal dps, ofc, but capable enough)..

Earth-based Manip + Stun build:

(Unnamed Build) - Freeform

Super Stats
Level 6: Intelligence (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Glacier (Con: 10, End: 10, Dex: 8, Int: 10)
Level 6: Covert Ops Training (Str: 3, Dex: 3, Con: 3, Int: 3)
Level 9: Healthy Mind (Con: 5, Int: 5)
Level 12: Acrobat (Dex: 5, Con: 5)
Level 15: Coordinated (Dex: 5, Int: 5)
Level 18: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 21: Negotiator (Int: 5, Rec: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Wield Earth
Level 1: Stone Shot (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Tremor (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Quarry (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 17: Manipulator
Level 20: Cave In (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Telekinetic Maelstrom (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 29: Hurl (Rank 2, Nailed to the Ground)
Level 32: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 35: Stone Shroud (Rank 2)
Level 38: Rebirth
Adv. Points: 34/36

Travel Powers
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations
Intelligence: Enlightened (2/3)
Intelligence: Battle of Wits (3/3)
Intelligence: Detect Vulnerability (3/3)
Intelligence: Expertise (2/2)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Moment of Need (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Avenger: Ruthless (2/2)
Avenger: Round 'em Up (3/3)
Avenger: Offensive Expertise (2/2)
Avenger: Preemptive Strike (3/3)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

Hurl is a cheap, long-range way to roll MSA and disable travel powers. TK Maelstrom is very Earth-like, and gives AoE lockout and burst dps. Cave In on targets staggered by Stone Shot are ur main single target filler that stuns and deals decent dps. A basic Stone Shot -> Cave In -> Hurl rotation keep Manip/stuns up, debuffs up, rolls Staggered and MSA. Can also knock w/ Tremor if/when stun resistances are built up (or alter w/ stuns for more lockdown).

-

Stunning Archer:

(Unnamed Build) - Freeform

Super Stats
Level 6: Intelligence (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Glacier (Con: 10, End: 10, Dex: 8, Int: 10)
Level 6: Covert Ops Training (Str: 3, Dex: 3, Con: 3, Int: 3)
Level 9: Healthy Mind (Con: 5, Int: 5)
Level 12: Acrobat (Dex: 5, Con: 5)
Level 15: Coordinated (Dex: 5, Int: 5)
Level 18: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 21: Negotiator (Int: 5, Rec: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Strafe
Level 1: Sonic Arrow (Rank 2, Deadly Dissonance)
Level 6: Hunter's Instinct
Level 8: Aura of Primal Majesty (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Manipulator
Level 14: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Torrent of Arrows (Rank 2, Relentless Recurve)
Level 20: Explosive Arrow (Where's the Kaboom?)
Level 23: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 26: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 29: Retaliation (Rank 2)
Level 32: Storm of Arrows (Rank 2, Achilles' Heel)
Level 35: Rebirth
Level 38:
Adv. Points: 28/36

Travel Powers
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations
Intelligence: Enlightened (2/3)
Intelligence: Battle of Wits (3/3)
Intelligence: Detect Vulnerability (3/3)
Intelligence: Expertise (2/2)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Moment of Need (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Arbiter: Enforcer (1/3)
Arbiter: Ruthless (2/2)
Arbiter: Rend (2/2)
Arbiter: Concussion (3/3)
Arbiter: Enhanced Gear (2/3)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

Last power can be w/e. Is mostly based around Sonic Arrow's spammable stun, though it can also knock and root. Explosive Arrow taps can be thrown in for more burst dps.

-

semi-DPS Telepathic debuffer:

(Unnamed Build) - Freeform

Super Stats
Level 6: Presence (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Witch (Con: 10, Int: 8, Pre: 10, Rec: 10)
Level 6: Healthy Mind (Con: 5, Int: 5)
Level 9: Shrug It Off (Con: 5, Pre: 5)
Level 12: Diplomatic (Int: 5, Pre: 5)
Level 15: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 18: Negotiator (Int: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 21: Lasting Impression (Pre: 5, Rec: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Psi Lash
Level 1: Ego Blast (Rank 2, Mind Opener)
Level 6: Telepathic Reverberation
Level 8: Ego Form (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Ego Sleep (Plagued by Nightmares)
Level 14: Manipulator
Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Ego Storm (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Mental Storm
Level 26: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 29: Telekinetic Maelstrom (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 35: Telekinetic Shield (Rank 2, Telekinetic Reinforcement)
Level 38: Rebirth
Adv. Points: 29/36

Travel Powers
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations
Presence: Repurpose (3/3)
Presence: Dominion (2/2)
Presence: Moment of Glory (2/3)
Presence: Force of Will (1/2)
Presence: Vulnerability (2/2)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Moment of Need (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Overseer: Administer (3/3)
Overseer: Ruthless (2/2)
Overseer: Impact (2/2)
Overseer: Trapped (3/3)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

Uses MStorm and Sleep to roll hold effects and debuffs. Can AoE lockdown w/ Ego Storm and TK Maelstrom. TP Reverb + MO on Ego Blast, and all the debuffs make this have decent dps potential and good group-based boosts to dmg.

-

Stunning Gun Katas:

(Unnamed Build) - Freeform

Super Stats
Level 6: Intelligence (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Dexterity (Secondary)

Talents
Level 1: The Glacier (Con: 10, End: 10, Dex: 8, Int: 10)
Level 6: Covert Ops Training (Str: 3, Dex: 3, Con: 3, Int: 3)
Level 9: Healthy Mind (Con: 5, Int: 5)
Level 12: Acrobat (Dex: 5, Con: 5)
Level 15: Coordinated (Dex: 5, Int: 5)
Level 18: Quick Recovery (Con: 5, Rec: 5)
Level 21: Negotiator (Int: 5, Rec: 5)

Powers
Level 1: Eldritch Bolts
Level 1: Burst Shot (Taking Names, Off Your Feet)
Level 6: Aura of Primal Majesty (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Manipulator
Level 11: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Killer Instinct
Level 17: Bullet Beatdown (Rank 2, Not Without Incident)
Level 20: Pistol Whip (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Thunderclap (Rank 2, Collateral Damage)
Level 26: Lead Tempest (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 32: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 35: Parry (Rank 2)
Level 38: Rebirth
Adv. Points: 34/36

Travel Powers
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations
Intelligence: Enlightened (2/3)
Intelligence: Battle of Wits (3/3)
Intelligence: Detect Vulnerability (3/3)
Intelligence: Expertise (2/2)
Arbiter: Enforcer (3/3)
Arbiter: Ruthless (2/2)
Arbiter: Rend (2/2)
Arbiter: Concussion (3/3)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Moment of Need (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

AoPM provides enough of a boost to Ego w/o necc needing to SS it for KI (though w/ a lunge, MSA could be the EU instead). Quarry would be a good replacement for an offensive passive using the melee dps role for BBeatdown (and its 1-pt melee adv). BB can root and stun innately, and if the procs aren't happening then Pistol Whip and/or TC can force it. Pistol Whip could be replaced w/ a lunge that roots or stuns from afar (like Mightly Leap).

-

There's other stuff out there, but I hope this spurns some ideas for Manip builds that aren't as heavy on Support or niche functions.

pantagruel01

raighn said:

Anyone that told you CC/DPS couldn't be done clearly never met me on any of my CCer builds...

CC, for these purposes, means sufficient to handle dogs in kigatilik and hearts in qwyjibo; bonus if you can also do off-tanking for teleios in TA. That has medium significant build requirements, because it's a giant pita unless you have at least 50s of sleep, which basically requires Manipulator if you don't run in Support, and even if you do run support has substantial build requirements that aren't very compatible with dps.

Your best bet seems like Int PSS with two forms (Concentration and Manipulator), battle of wits, sleep, and something like entangling mesh to build manipulator stacks. That's cost you three powers that aren't very damage-useful, but the rest of your build can be a standard ranged DPS. Or melee dps if you can work out Particle Accelerator.

flowcyto

Well, when it comes to cosmic-CCing in particular, its already been covered why that's not going to lead to a very competitive build in many other areas. In that case, for balance reasons you can't really have your cake and eat it, cause you are looking at filling very specific role that is very powerful w/in that specificity. Its a pretty fair trade off, honestly. If you could fill those CC niches and still be very competitive, say, at dps, then there's not much reason for other dps to not also do that, and that just kinda trivializes the entire concept and leads to less build diversity.

pwestolemyname

Yeah, basically I just wanted something that doesn't embarrass itself in other content, while still being able to competently CC at Kiga & Ape.

flowcyto

Well, the reasoning is kinda sound- if there's any single power that can change ur stats/focus the most, its prob a slotted passive or toggle change (potentially). As long as you can swap powers/roles around, and have the power slots and maybe extra gear to do so, then you can at least be capable outside of that CC niche (but not all simultaneously, ofc).

corunn

Raighn, any chance you'd post your "telekinetic" build? I'd love to see it.

roughbearmattach

A Pre of 700+ is so overkill into diminishing returns that you are gimping yourself. You'd be better off with higher Con and more health to survive if necessary.

Once your Ego Sleep hits about 1 minute, and you have appropriate specs and Manip, more Pre just don't matter.

pwestolemyname

roughbearmattach said:

A Pre of 700+ is so overkill into diminishing returns that you are gimping yourself. You'd be better off with higher Con and more health to survive if necessary.

Once your Ego Sleep hits about 1 minute, and you have appropriate specs and Manip, more Pre just don't matter.

At 709 Pre, my Ego Sleep is 56 seconds (that's with 1 base stack of Manip). I don't have all the appropriate Specs for CCing , I have Wardicator. That is why I am going to need to double gear, one set to Max out Pre for CCing and the other set to add in more Ego & Con for DPSing.

raighn

corunn said:

Raighn, any chance you'd post your "telekinetic" build? I'd love to see it.

Sure: "Telekinesis" - Freeform

There's the build I currently use on her... however if you'd like to increase the strength of her CC even further that can be done by swapping out a few powers and changing her specs up a little.

Telekinesis can be swapped with Ego Sleep for a long duration hold
Quarry can be swapped with AoPM
Sentry spec can be swapped for Overseer with Trapped
And Int Mastery can be swapped with Sentinel Mastery

Her stat build is pretty much an even spread of Int/Pre/Ego, though for stronger CCs you can always prioritize more Int and/or Pre. If you're looking to maximize your hold duration then you'd probably have to go Pre PSS.

amazingproton

@flowcyto What role do you run these CC builds in?

flowcyto

amazingproton said:

@flowcyto What role do you run these CC builds in?

For the builds w/ AoPM- Hybrid role. For the ones using an Offensive passive- either Hybrid or DPS, though I'd prob use the most fitting dps role as you can still get decent hold times w/ Manip and good Int_Pres (even w/ the CC penalty).

pantagruel01

flowcyto said:

amazingproton said:

@flowcyto What role do you run these CC builds in?

For the builds w/ AoPM- Hybrid role. For the ones using an Offensive passive- either Hybrid or DPS, though I'd prob use the most fitting dps role as you can still get decent hold times w/ Manip and good Int_Pres (even w/ the CC penalty).

Or you can just buildswap. It's not like you need especially high dps for, say, dog CCing.

flowcyto

pantagruel01 said:

flowcyto said:

amazingproton said:

@flowcyto What role do you run these CC builds in?

For the builds w/ AoPM- Hybrid role. For the ones using an Offensive passive- either Hybrid or DPS, though I'd prob use the most fitting dps role as you can still get decent hold times w/ Manip and good Int_Pres (even w/ the CC penalty).

Or you can just buildswap. It's not like you need especially high dps for, say, dog CCing.

Yea, that's true. Can also maybe get 2 diff sets of gear that prioritize dps or CC strength and use that pre-set option to swap between them, if ya want.

pwestolemyname

flowcyto said:

pantagruel01 said:

flowcyto said:

amazingproton said:

@flowcyto What role do you run these CC builds in?

For the builds w/ AoPM- Hybrid role. For the ones using an Offensive passive- either Hybrid or DPS, though I'd prob use the most fitting dps role as you can still get decent hold times w/ Manip and good Int_Pres (even w/ the CC penalty).

Or you can just buildswap. It's not like you need especially high dps for, say, dog CCing.

Yea, that's true. Can also maybe get 2 diff sets of gear that prioritize dps or CC strength and use that pre-set option to swap between them, if ya want.

I'm working on this now, for mine. For CCing dogs I use the OV Defender Gloves. For DPS, I'm working on getting OV Sniper Gloves. She's wearing Distinguished primaries and so I'm also working on getting a duplicate Offensive piece to swap out some Pre and Ego, and add in some Gambler's or Impact's for the DPS build. One thing odd I have noticed is that in some cases, she seems to do more damage in DPS mode with higher Pre, so I need to look at that better.

flowcyto

One thing odd I have noticed is that in some cases, she seems to do more damage in DPS mode with higher Pre, so I need to look at that better.

Well, assuming its the original build, Pres scales up Manip, whereas Ego doesn't here. That could maybe explain some of it.

pwestolemyname

flowcyto said:

One thing odd I have noticed is that in some cases, she seems to do more damage in DPS mode with higher Pre, so I need to look at that better.

Well, assuming its the original build, Pres scales up Manip, whereas Ego doesn't here. That could maybe explain some of it.

I was thinking that. Also, I have the Grandeur spec that adds Offense for Pre. Then again, I also have Force of Will, which means my 2ndary stats give Defense. And with the Guardicator loop, that should more or less even out when I swap Pre for Ego, but I'm pretty bad at #COMath (worse than Common Core), so it's hard for me to figure that relationship. Thank goodness for the PTS!

riverocean

My favorite CC/DPS is a Sonic Arrow + Manipulator build. Even after the nerfs he's a solid CC'r. Not up to Dog controller level. but he handles the Apes "Hearts" just fine. I probably could make him suitable for Kiga Tanking..but then I'd lose out DPS. And he works so well on Mechanon I'm afraid to ruin him :P