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Please make things that aren't giant open world bosses in the future.
sannia1
Posts: 86 Arc User
I'll try to focus this longstanding fight in a more productive direction:
Okay, so endgame content should be difficult. However, 'difficult' doesn't have to be in the form of an open world 40 player boss.
Between the three cosmic bosses, a fourth one upcoming, and the fact that many events have cosmic style bosses of their own, there doesn't seem to be a lot of variety in the content that's most relevant for growth.
The cosmic model has a lot of negatives to it:
1) It's easy for 'dead weight' to succeed at it regardless of the difficulty of the boss, since they are 1/40th of the team.
2) It requires a lot of people, therefore it requires a lot of waiting.
3) There's nothing to stop a griefer from showing up.
4) There's nothing to stop a noob who isn't ready for it from showing up.
5) The one boss can only target one tank, one of the 40 players there. Gimmicks have to be introduced to make other tanks relevant.
6) Since the boss is targeting the tank, gimmicks have to be introduced to make the DPS have something to think about. DPS 'gameplay' often ends up being 'If there's an AoE, block it, otherwise mash your attack button'.
7) Instead of making death relevant, rampage style, the model involves 1 hit KOs and a bunch of respawning.
8) The individual player's competence is almost irrelevant, as it is overwhelmed by the performance of the team.
The cosmic model does have some positives. The open worldness and the respawning gives new players something they can access easily, so they can learn and make mistakes without ruining the run (or it would be like that if the boss's self-healing gimmicks weren't triggered by one player's screw-up).
Frankly, this game barely has the population to support cosmics. During the recent Qliphothic Invasion, the dino famously went down only once a week because players were generally split between the normal cosmics and the 'chickens'.
On the other hand, TA is great. It forces all five players on the team to perform, and isn't that painful forming a group. I'd much rather future content after Shadow of Destruction be more small group missions in the style of TA rather than a fifth open world cosmic boss. Four cosmics will be *plenty* for those who want to fight cosmics.
Okay, so endgame content should be difficult. However, 'difficult' doesn't have to be in the form of an open world 40 player boss.
Between the three cosmic bosses, a fourth one upcoming, and the fact that many events have cosmic style bosses of their own, there doesn't seem to be a lot of variety in the content that's most relevant for growth.
The cosmic model has a lot of negatives to it:
1) It's easy for 'dead weight' to succeed at it regardless of the difficulty of the boss, since they are 1/40th of the team.
2) It requires a lot of people, therefore it requires a lot of waiting.
3) There's nothing to stop a griefer from showing up.
4) There's nothing to stop a noob who isn't ready for it from showing up.
5) The one boss can only target one tank, one of the 40 players there. Gimmicks have to be introduced to make other tanks relevant.
6) Since the boss is targeting the tank, gimmicks have to be introduced to make the DPS have something to think about. DPS 'gameplay' often ends up being 'If there's an AoE, block it, otherwise mash your attack button'.
7) Instead of making death relevant, rampage style, the model involves 1 hit KOs and a bunch of respawning.
8) The individual player's competence is almost irrelevant, as it is overwhelmed by the performance of the team.
The cosmic model does have some positives. The open worldness and the respawning gives new players something they can access easily, so they can learn and make mistakes without ruining the run (or it would be like that if the boss's self-healing gimmicks weren't triggered by one player's screw-up).
Frankly, this game barely has the population to support cosmics. During the recent Qliphothic Invasion, the dino famously went down only once a week because players were generally split between the normal cosmics and the 'chickens'.
On the other hand, TA is great. It forces all five players on the team to perform, and isn't that painful forming a group. I'd much rather future content after Shadow of Destruction be more small group missions in the style of TA rather than a fifth open world cosmic boss. Four cosmics will be *plenty* for those who want to fight cosmics.
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and the dps have a actual work to do in kiga and dino at least, dino as waiting for the check to make a big burst, and kiga paying attention to tombs duh, of course, its TEAM BASED content, wich individuals shouldn't be relevant by their own, only need to do their role as good as possible to accomplish the objective, kill the cosmic new people come and go, the ones that wants to stay might need to learn the mechanics and such, the more people the better unless you are not in some out of the most population timezones this isnt truth at all
remember everyone, this is a MMO, multiplayer, hard content its meant to be with more people as a team, if I wanted more challenging solo content I wouldn't go for this game to be honest, but meh, hard content for soloing doesn't sound too bad but wont happen anytime soon
and yes TA its cool
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
Um... so to sum up, the new things we've gotten under the current team:
Onslaught, Epic Lair, Open World Cosmics, new zone chock full of daily quests and open missions...
I'd say there's been plenty of variety in the content we've been getting. A toy for every boy and girl. It hasn't just been cosmic after cosmic after cosmic.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Those are valid criticisms of the Cosmic model, Sannia, but it probably provides the only workable solution to endgame content in CO at the moment. There is a huge variation in player experience, ability, character build quality and power/survivability at level 40, and no matchmaking software available to make viable groups from the people who want to play. We know enough from TA and Fire and Ice to know that simple pick-up-groups won't work. So open world, open access, is what there is, good and bad, and there's enough people that will play it for the developers to make more of the same over the coming months.
That's not very controversial, so here are some other points:
1) "and the dps have a actual work to do in kiga and dino at least, dino as waiting for the check to make a big burst, and kiga paying attention to tombs
Oh, come on. 25 dps standing on a rock, spamming Plasma Beam with their..... (every Teliosaurus run ever). I wonder if half of them are awake....
2) duh, of course, its TEAM BASED content, wich individuals shouldn't be relevant by their own, only need to do their role as good as possible to accomplish the objective, kill the cosmic
That's not true either.... the Cosmics remind me of an orchestra. No conductor or principal players, and you end up with a terrible noise.
3) remember everyone, this is a MMO, multiplayer, hard content its meant to be with more people as a team,
Well, no. MMO means multiplayer world, not always multiplayer in play. Over the years Champions has been developed by groups of people that disagreed massively on that point. Without Alerts there would be virtually no team content in the game at all - the Open Missions and about five Lairs. And it really, really shows; you can get to level 40 with virtually no experience of how to play in a team or in facing the level of difficulty of GCR end game content. Hopefiully the developers will have the chance to have a think about that and how it could be improved - a "mid zone" of content from level 35 up which explains the dynamics, and more reasons to run the existing Lairs and team Missions, would be good (although not for GCR, and it's always difficult to get people not to try and jump to the newest and shiniest).
4) Frankly, this game barely has the population to support cosmics.
When it's quiet, yes. The US players drive the game, and if you're elsewhere in the world, you'll struggle. There never seems to be more than one group of Cosmic players around at a time. Hopefully the new zone launch will improve that.
2: That's the one issue i keep bringing up which nobody seems to care about due to it not effecting them
3: And how would you make a system that can "remove" them without it being abused by them?
4: Yeah there is, it's called insta death
5: The bosses attacks split damage between tanks evenly [upto a max of 3] so being targeted just lets you guide the attacks
6: True.. provided you don't count the DPS check/dodging hot lava/destroying tombs
7: Death vs kiga = kiga heals.. a LOT, also 1 hit KOs? you are aware that there is such a thing as blocking.. right?
8: Try saying that to the healer or the tank or the CCer or the higher end DPS players...
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
Those are creative solutions which compensate for a fundamental shortcoming. I'm not suggesting changing the existing cosmics, nor radical changes to Shadow Destroyer by this point. But, in the context of a hypothetical 5th cosmic, that shortcoming is going to exist and they'll need to come up with some new creative gimmick to overcome it. I *am* a healer, CCer, and higher end DPS player. When I'm a healer and it's dino, I can't make the team pass the DPS checks. When I'm dps and it's Kiga, I can't make the guy next to me block. I also can't stop the hearts from being hit on Qwyjibo. All you can do is wait for them to either learn or leave. Those are all the result of gimmicky self-heal mechanics to compensate for the fact that it's a 40 player boss.
And all of the above wouldn't be half as frustrating if it wasn't for the two hour wait for these things to get started. Did I mention during the chicken event that the dino only went down about once a week? As in seven 24 hour day cycles which would bring players in from all time zones at some point during each day? Oh wait, I did.
During the present event, I've seen dino group formation foiled by the Destroid invasion. People leave to go do that, some come back. We wait another hour, and then people leave again.
Sure, a group forms eventually and it eventually goes down, but I said we 'barely have the population', not 'we don't have the population'.
The real problem here is you people. The big problem with cosmics is #2 - it takes too damn long to form a 40 player group. That's something we all agree on. Well, that and the fact that 40 player bosses tend to be more gimmicky than 5 and 10 player bosses, which we *mostly* agree on but people still have the find the one thing to fight over.
But, I mention that, and I get called a whiny bad player and a liar. Why? Because I don't like standing around for an hour waiting for a group to form? That is anti-social toxic behavior.
So, the devs get creative and create a warzone. That's great. But since the 'community' is shutting down any discussion in the anti-cosmic direction, the devs feel they need to include a cosmic with the warzone. We'll have to wait and see the practical gameplay of it when there isn't a scheduled pre-formed PTS group running it - if the warzone is an actual warzone or if it becomes a summoning ritual started just after the group is formed and ready to fight the cosmic. The whole warzone could very well get ruined by the hour of waiting to do the cosmic that shouldn't be obligatory.
All because you jerks are too arrogant to admit that standing on a hill for an hour sucks.
If you have the key roles, you can defeat a Cosmic with some DPS thrown in. For instance:
Dino:
2 Mom tanks
1 baby tank
1 mom tank healer
1 baby tank healer
1 dps healer/backup healer
15 DPS
That group can and *has* beat Dino.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.