Want to try my hand at ice powers, maybe some of the storm powers but need some info.

xoriandruid

First do the ice/storm powers work together? Second if im going for dps would it be a bad idea to get presence as one of my secondary stats and in my innate? I think some light cc ability would help groups more so I dont feel like just a dps toon.

flowcyto

Wind can mix pretty well w/ Ice. Hurricane and/or Typhoon for AoE; Ice Blast/Spear for single-target dps:

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Endurance (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Void
Level 6: Ascetic
Level 9: Boundless Reserves
Level 12: Daredevil
Level 15: Quick Recovery
Level 18: Wordly
Level 21: Amazing Stamina

Powers:
Level 1: Ice Shards
Level 1: Ice Blast (Hard Frost, Frost Bite)
Level 6: Icy Embrace
Level 8: Stormbringer (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Chilled Form
Level 14: Hurricane (Rank 2, Perfect Storm)
Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 23: Masterful Dodge
Level 26: Ice Shield (Rank 2, Frigid Air)
Level 29: Typhoon (Rank 2, Rank 3, Cold Front)
Level 32: Icicle Spear (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 38: Rebirth

Travel Powers:
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations:
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Follow Through (3/3)
Ego: Sixth Sense (2/3)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Find the Mark (2/3)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)

Typhoon and/or Ice Spear take much energy, so I'd prob pass on Pres as a SS as its taking the place of a more useful stat (for health, energy, and/or dps). This is also cause neither powerset are that great at CC.

xoriandruid

flowcyto said:

Wind can mix pretty well w/ Ice. Hurricane and/or Typhoon for AoE; Ice Blast/Spear for single-target dps:

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Endurance (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Void
Level 6: Ascetic
Level 9: Boundless Reserves
Level 12: Daredevil
Level 15: Quick Recovery
Level 18: Wordly
Level 21: Amazing Stamina

Powers:
Level 1: Ice Shards
Level 1: Ice Blast (Hard Frost, Frost Bite)
Level 6: Icy Embrace
Level 8: Stormbringer (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Chilled Form
Level 14: Hurricane (Rank 2, Perfect Storm)
Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 23: Masterful Dodge
Level 26: Ice Shield (Rank 2, Frigid Air)
Level 29: Typhoon (Rank 2, Rank 3, Cold Front)
Level 32: Icicle Spear (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 38: Rebirth

Travel Powers:
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations:
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Follow Through (3/3)
Ego: Sixth Sense (2/3)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Find the Mark (2/3)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)

Typhoon and/or Ice Spear take much energy, so I'd prob pass on Pres as a SS as its taking the place of a more useful stat (for health, energy, and/or dps). This is also cause neither powerset are that great at CC.

Im confused why isnt ice decent at cc? I didnt mean for it to be the best but to offer light cc is still useful to me.

flowcyto

Ice mostly just offers roots/slows, but since ice objects are sep entities they don't often get all bonuses. Ice Cage's adv is pretty good for interrupting mooks, but its nothing major that stuns or knocks couldn't already do. Wind has one charged single-target hold and otherwise repels and KBs. So yeah, not really strong for CC overall.

xoriandruid

flowcyto said:

Ice mostly just offers roots/slows, but since ice objects are sep entities they don't often get all bonuses. Ice Cage's adv is pretty good for interrupting mooks, but its nothing major that stuns or knocks couldn't already do. Wind has one charged single-target hold and otherwise repels and KBs. So yeah, not really strong for CC overall.

Ok so what your saying is, to you its just not worth the presence, I can see that thanks again, your the only one who hangs around this board for some reason.

flowcyto

Yea, its not really worth Pres SS on its own, imo. And there's other posters here; they're just less likely to give feedback when someone else like me already has (though they're free to).

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dirtydwarf68

That's too bad blue, the bad experience that is. I always was very grateful for your hardwork and helpful advice pn here.

xoriandruid

bluegrassbeast said:

I find Ice does two things really well - tanking and DPS - both single / spike and AoE / maintained, depending on what you want to go with. What flavor are you looking for, role-wise?

And yeah, due to a couple bad experiences, unless I'm called to attention I tend to leave these sorts of things to Flow. Given how alt-unfriendly the game's becoming however, Ihave been easing back in to lending my buildmonkeying to others lately, though.

Mostly dps and some light cc, kind of like coh ice blasters back in the day:)

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xoriandruid

bluegrassbeast said:

CC and DPS are largely incompatible -and the only way to make CC work is to all-or-nothing it - otherwise it's half-past pointless. Honestly,the CC in Ice is largely a trap, and a relic from the days before whiny PvPers ruined CC.

So, here we are, a couple options:


PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Ice Sniper

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Endurance (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Marksman
Level 6: Shooter
Level 9: Daredevil
Level 12: Accurate
Level 15: Ascetic
Level 18: Boundless Reserves
Level 21: Acrobat

Powers:
Level 1: Ice Shards
Level 1: Frost Breath (Frost Bite)
Level 6: Ice Form (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Chilled Form
Level 11: Ice Blast (Hard Frost, Frost Bite)
Level 14: Icicle Spear (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Ice Shield (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Lifedrain (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Unbreakable (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Ice Sheath (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Ice Burst (Freeze, Dirtbag)
Level 32: Palliate (Absolve)
Level 35: Icy Embrace
Level 38: Rebirth

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Ice Slide (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35:

Specializations:
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Aggression (2/2)
Ego: Follow Through (3/3)
Ego: Sixth Sense (2/3)
Avenger: Ruthless (2/2)
Avenger: Anguish (2/2)
Avenger: Round 'em Up (1/3)
Avenger: Relentless Assault (2/3)
Avenger: Preemptive Strike (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)

This is a basic, offensive-focused single-target assassin build. Frost Breath to max-stack Chilled,then full-charge Ice Blast, then full-charge Icicle Spear, renewing the Chilled stacks with breath as needed and alternating Blast and Spear.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Ice Stormer

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Void
Level 6: Shooter
Level 9: Ascetic
Level 12: Acrobat
Level 15: Wordly
Level 18: Quick Recovery
Level 21: Impresario

Powers:
Level 1: Ice Shards
Level 1: Frost Breath (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Ice Form (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Chilled Form
Level 11: Snow Storm (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Avalanche (Rank 2, Serrated Shards)
Level 17: Ice Burst (Freeze, Dirtbag)
Level 20: Ice Shield (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Ice Sheath (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Palliate (Absolve)
Level 32: Unbreakable (Rank 2)
Level 35: Overdrive
Level 38: Rebirth

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Flight (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35:

Specializations:
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Follow Through (3/3)
Ego: Exploit Opening (2/2)
Avenger: Ruthless (2/2)
Avenger: Round 'em Up (3/3)
Avenger: Relentless Assault (3/3)
Avenger: Offensive Expertise (2/2)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Offensive Expertise (2/2)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (3/3)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)

And here, a dedicated Ice Nuker. Charge up your stacks with Frost Breath, then full-charge an Ice Storm, and then follow up with a maintained Avalanche.

I think this is more of a mentality thing then actually being true, it isnt useless thats like saying dark is useless because you have cc to help you solo, any cc helps a team regardless, you dont have to go all or nothing in my experience in the game so far. The trade off is instead of holding enemies a little longer you have more dps, so if you have aoes that slow enemies while your dpsing your still helping your groups and yourself. Cc has never been a trap in mmorpgs, and I dont pvp anyways.

Besides if cc doesnt exist then there should be on difference in power types if you go ranged dps, for example ice has slow and holds, but dark has holds that heal and debuff.

Thank you for the builds though they are helpful.

flowcyto

I think Bluegrass meant that CC and dps tend to counter-balance each other, as most CC types break (very) easily to inc dmg (main exceptions are stuns, which are very brief outside of Manip builds, and knocks- which aren't classed as hold-type CC for Manip).

It used to be that you could make an Ice controller when Ice Cage triggered Manip on each use, but since they 'fixed' Manip, that's no longer the case and such builds aren't that easy to make work. If you wanted to use Manip w/ Ice and/or Wind, you'd now have to rely on a slow charged hold that's single target-only and on a cd (Twister) and a long-cd paralyze that also scatters mobs (Ice Burst w/ adv). Its feasible, but I wouldn't recommend it.

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xoriandruid

bluegrassbeast said:

It's as Flow states - CC and DPS do not work well together, and to get CC to matter takes a vastly different setup mechanically than to get DPS running. More than that, DPS roles actually have a baked-in penalty to Hold Strength. It has nothing to do with mindset.

Outside of a hard-focused, Manipulator-packaged control build, CC is more or less useless in high-end content witha few exceptions - almost all of them quite recent. It's a positive sign for certain, buteven then - DPS/CCer is just a concept at odds with itself mechanically.

Darkness is a completely, utterly different beast than Ice, and the CC elements are, again,a sidenote. Darkness is a debuffer/self-healing set primarily, with a few movement shenanigans.

Actually darkness has more then one crowd control and they do more then just debuff and heal they cc at the same time, im sorry but I just disagree with this because I know you can build up cc and dps if you really want to and be decent at it anyways thanks for the suggestions. You can make them work together, I dont see any signs as to what your talking about.

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flowcyto

Darkness, imo fares a bit better for adding utility outside of dps. Shadow Embrace w/ DD can KD more often than Avalanche, and is much cheaper than Avalanche or Typhoon spam. But its still a % chance to proc, so its not fully reliable, and Embrace + DD has low base dps. Shadow Blast w/ PB adv is a reliable stun, but its single-target and requires first putting up Fear and fully charging the blast. SBlast is also pretty low dps in of itself.

Void Shift can stun too, but only one target and only if you lunge from >25ft. Grasping Shadows is decent for a charged hold, but more cause its an AoE and w/ its special advs has some healing utility (the hold itself can break to dmg easily). Darkness also has some corralling powers, but they are somewhat slow and weak for that purpose.

I wouldn't say Darkness' CC ability is strong, but I guess it depends on what ur standard of 'good' for CC is. It is a decent powerset for trying to juggle a buncha diff things serviceably, though.

xoriandruid

bluegrassbeast said:

..and this is the reason why Flow is the only one who answers.

Have fun, you plainly know it all already and don't need my advice henceforth.

Look take offense all you want, believe it or not I did value your advice and the builds you took, but not eveyone has to agree with every thing you say, allot of people dont have much imagination when it comes to this game and im not saying you dont but I have experienced unique things with characters before and this does seem to be more of a mentality issue with the game. Im sorry your annoyed or offended I didnt follow every bit of advice like gospel but that is no reason to give up on the boards and I doubt that is the reason he is the only one.


Again thank you for your building suggestions and have a good time playing the game:)

xoriandruid

flowcyto said:

Darkness, imo fares a bit better for adding utility outside of dps. Shadow Embrace w/ DD can KD more often than Avalanche, and is much cheaper than Avalanche or Typhoon spam. But its still a % chance to proc, so its not fully reliable, and Embrace + DD has low base dps. Shadow Blast w/ PB adv is a reliable stun, but its single-target and requires first putting up Fear and fully charging the blast. SBlast is also pretty low dps in of itself.

Void Shift can stun too, but only one target and only if you lunge from >25ft. Grasping Shadows is decent for a charged hold, but more cause its an AoE and w/ its special advs has some healing utility (the hold itself can break to dmg easily). Darkness also has some corralling powers, but they are somewhat slow and weak for that purpose.

I wouldn't say Darkness' CC ability is strong, but I guess it depends on what ur standard of 'good' for CC is. It is a decent powerset for trying to juggle a buncha diff things serviceably, though.

I think it is depending on if you use presence or not. Which I actually do on my dark character.

flowcyto

Pres can help, but its not really necessary for CC builds either imo- I'd more take it cause I'm either using a slotted aura or want to boost healing power a bit.

Pres PSS can also be a decent choice for dps- more for boosting survival than dps, though. It requires rolling Vuln to be competitive on the dps front, which isn't easy to do.

xoriandruid

flowcyto said:

Pres can help, but its not really necessary for CC builds either imo- I'd more take it cause I'm either using a slotted aura or want to boost healing power a bit.

Pres PSS can also be a decent choice for dps- more for boosting survival than dps, though. It requires rolling Vuln to be competitive on the dps front, which isn't easy to do.

Pres is the main state for holds and healing, plus you have the spec tree for it if you pick it as a primary.

flowcyto

Not really. Manip is technically the best CC strength booster avail, and that scales w/ either Pres or Int. Pres' innate CC boost is more of a secondary effect, and it only applies to hold-based CC. Int PSS also can boost holds, as can other spec options, as can the Support role, as can normal ranks of powers that innately CC, etc.

xoriandruid

flowcyto said:

Not really. Manip is technically the best CC strength booster avail, and that scales w/ either Pres or Int. Pres' innate CC boost is more of a secondary effect, and it only applies to hold-based CC. Int PSS also can boost holds, as can other spec options, as can the Support role, as can normal ranks of powers that innately CC, etc.

Im strictly speaking for hybrid roles here though, and you can make a few healer builds with plenty of cc.

flowcyto

Sure, but Pres' CC boost is in the 10-20% range. It can help, but its not really major either- that was more my point. Hybrid role doesn't boost CC innately, but it also doesn't have a CC penalty either, like the dps roles, so its a fine enough role for CC as well.

xoriandruid

flowcyto said:

Sure, but Pres' CC boost is in the 10-20% range. It can help, but its not really major either- that was more my point. Hybrid role doesn't boost CC innately, but it also doesn't have a CC penalty either, like the dps roles, so its a fine enough role for CC as well.

Oh I didnt mean by switching to full support, but yea I see what you mean, but im gussing primary presence spec tree might help more then the stats though.

magentagem

Since we're discussing wind powers, what debuffs/buffs work will with typhoon? I know ice blast w/hard frost debuffs the cold dmg half of typhoon, but what about the crushing dmg half?

xoriandruid

magentagem said:

Since we're discussing wind powers, what debuffs/buffs work will with typhoon? I know ice blast w/hard frost debuffs the cold dmg half of typhoon, but what about the crushing dmg half?

Isnt crushing from wind dps?

flowcyto

Crushing debuffs can come from many sources- Burst Shot, Demolish, Arc of Ruin, Minigun, and Chest Beam (Shredded also technically buffs it via Physical dmg). But they're not all very practical, esp since they only buff ~half of Typhoon's dmg.

magentagem

Yea, seems impractical.
Ok, so sticking with Ice Blast w/Hard Frost...

If I were to use hard frost, preemptive strike from avenger specs, and then typhoon, would it out DPS icicle spear?

flowcyto

Ice Spear will prob fare better vs. single targets- esp w/ Chill stacks. That said, Preemptive Strike + Typhoon is pretty solid single-target dps- for a long-range AoE power that is.