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Remove Scores from Cosmics

kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
or change how they work......whatever is easier. As they are, the scores:
1. Mean nothing with regards to rewards or anything else that matters
2. *** Incentivize the wrong type of behavior ***


If the issue is to highlight who made the cut in terms of participation. That can be shown in other ways. If the issue is showing people how much damage or healing they did....those who really care can run a parser.

People who just want a massive score mess up the encounters where things are a bit more precarious. This is especially true of Kiga and the Dino right now.

Comments

  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    I've seen this bad behavior is action. Some DPS insist on attacking a cosmic right from the beginning, while tanks are building aggro, so they can be higher up on the board.

    On the other hand . . . a scoreboard is also a motivator. There is a population of players that like competition, that like to see a score, like to see how they did relative to others. The scoreboard even motivates a small number of players to change their build. People can run parsers, of course, but that isn't the same as a public display.

    We might gain something by dropping scores, but we might lose something as well.
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User


    On the other hand . . . a scoreboard is also a motivator. There is a population of players that like competition, that like to see a score, like to see how they did relative to others. The scoreboard even motivates a small number of players to change their build. People can run parsers, of course, but that isn't the same as a public display.

    We might gain something by dropping scores, but we might lose something as well.

    This is a good point. I wonder if there's a way to change the scoreboard to motivate good behavior
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    kamokami said:

    If the issue is to highlight who made the cut in terms of participation. That can be shown in other ways.

    Unfortunately, I don't actually think this is true; the open mission technology appears to have some significant limitations.
    kamokami said:

    People who just want a massive score mess up the encounters where things are a bit more precarious. This is especially true of Kiga and the Dino right now.

    I'm really not convinced this is true.
    kamokami said:


    On the other hand . . . a scoreboard is also a motivator. There is a population of players that like competition, that like to see a score, like to see how they did relative to others. The scoreboard even motivates a small number of players to change their build. People can run parsers, of course, but that isn't the same as a public display.

    We might gain something by dropping scores, but we might lose something as well.

    This is a good point. I wonder if there's a way to change the scoreboard to motivate good behavior
    Probably not easily.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    I've seen this bad behavior is action. Some DPS insist on attacking a cosmic right from the beginning, while tanks are building aggro, so they can be higher up on the board.

    Someone should tell them that doesn't work. If you actually dps in a way that will actually raise your score at the start of the fight, you'll just get killed and your deaths will nullify any points you gained.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    Unfortunately, I don't actually think this is true; the open mission technology appears to have some significant limitations.

    I don't think it's unreasonable to thing that the tech could keep track of your damage dealt, healing done, and relevant damage taken, as well as deaths. It could also likely keep track of how much of your score came from each of these. If it could print all of these out at the end of the battle, that would at least give some more informative feedback to players.

    example:

    Damage 250,000, score 250,000
    Healing 15,000, score 15,000
    Tanking 1200, score 1200
    Deaths 56, score -1,680,000

    So the player looks at this and says "huh, okay, so I did enough damage, but because I forgot I have a block button I died a buttload of times and those deaths obliterated my score.... I should block more."

    If a tank looks at their score and sees that they almost had enough points from Tanking damage, then they would know they need to be a bit braver and throw out more attacks. Healers would be able to tell if their healing just wasn't reaching people before they were already healed by someone else. etc...

    I'm really not convinced this is true.

    I'm not convinced either. Just the act of wanting a high score isn't what causes poor behavior. For example, I want a good score, but I know that I can't get a good score if I'm constantly getting floored due to poor decisions. That's why I make sure to block. That's why I make sure that when I do get aggro as a DPS, I either drop that aggro immediately, or if I can't I rush over to the tanks and stand next to them blocking because then I'm likely to get some heals, and some score for tanking damage - if I don't rush over to the tanks, I'm probably just going to die because healers can't heal me when they're getting destroyed by aoe damage.

    Generally, people who do bone-headed things with the scoreboard will likely continue to do them without the scoreboard. In fact, telling them to "go get a parser" might even make the situation worse, because the parser doesn't deduct points for dying and also doesn't add points for doing smart things like what I mentioned above.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    Someone should tell them that doesn't work.

    Yeah, improving the scoring system only works if people actually know what boosts their score. For example, people who dps through Kiga's snowstorm and then die are costing themselves points (people who don't die aren't, but if they don't die they also aren't behaving badly).
  • qawsadaqawsada Posts: 736 Arc User
    I would agree that some way to rework the system is nice. I notice that more tanks aren't getting their Dino mom credit, despite helping taking the blows from the dino mom's bite.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    Maybe reward blocking >_>

    Ya but what if I show up, hit my block toggle, and then go watch anime/rap mashup videos until the fight is over o3o

    I think blocking is already rewarded... by the player not dying.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    If the scores at the end are here to stay, then it'd be nice to get massive +bonus points for damage dealt to Hearts, during Dino's regen activation, and to Frost Tombs. Or to steeply discount points for damage dealt at all other times.

    Not to incentivize players....they already have enough incentive.....but to show them how well they did at following the intended mechanics to overcome the challenge.

    Of course the best would be to know during the run.....it'd be awesome to have the above bonus & have the scoreboard be visible and update as the run goes on. Could just have it update only when the Cosmic gets down to 2/3rds hp and 1/3rd hp.....instead of real-time.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    What messes up the encounters are poorly built tanks with PvP tryhards that spam and use a power that has CC on it because they have to be 1337 instead of a team player. In addition to this you have wannabe tanks that do things like spam Defensive Combo with Crippling Challenge on it, and pull aggro, but don't stand with the rest of the tanks because they think they are tougher.

    There are only three times aggro will get peeled from me as a tank; One is if someone is spamming a CC power and the temporary taunt kicks in and I haven't used CC (very likely), two is if someone uses palliate with absolve on me whether intentionally or not, and three is if I die due to my own muck up or lack of a healer.

    And when I am standing their holding block I notice a lot of behavior while tanking dinomom and Kiga that is the reason for these wipes and it has nothing to really do with the DPS there doing damage, but has everything to do with CC spammers and bad use of absolve.​​
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User

    What messes up the encounters are poorly built tanks with PvP tryhards that spam and use a power that has CC on it because they have to be 1337 instead of a team player. In addition to this you have wannabe tanks that do things like spam Defensive Combo with Crippling Challenge on it, and pull aggro, but don't stand with the rest of the tanks because they think they are tougher.



    There are only three times aggro will get peeled from me as a tank; One is if someone is spamming a CC power and the temporary taunt kicks in and I haven't used CC (very likely), two is if someone uses palliate with absolve on me whether intentionally or not, and three is if I die due to my own muck up or lack of a healer.



    And when I am standing their holding block I notice a lot of behavior while tanking dinomom and Kiga that is the reason for these wipes and it has nothing to really do with the DPS there doing damage, but has everything to do with CC spammers and bad use of absolve.​​

    Personally, I'm seeing a lot less of those sorts of explicit screw ups in the last 2 weeks.

    But I am noticing us not being able to pass the DPS checks so it'd be great if everyone involved in the encounter could know what they are contributing *while it's happening*.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Posts: 521 Arc User
    edited June 2016
    kamokami said:

    What messes up the encounters are poorly built tanks with PvP tryhards that spam and use a power that has CC on it because they have to be 1337 instead of a team player. In addition to this you have wannabe tanks that do things like spam Defensive Combo with Crippling Challenge on it, and pull aggro, but don't stand with the rest of the tanks because they think they are tougher.



    There are only three times aggro will get peeled from me as a tank; One is if someone is spamming a CC power and the temporary taunt kicks in and I haven't used CC (very likely), two is if someone uses palliate with absolve on me whether intentionally or not, and three is if I die due to my own muck up or lack of a healer.



    And when I am standing their holding block I notice a lot of behavior while tanking dinomom and Kiga that is the reason for these wipes and it has nothing to really do with the DPS there doing damage, but has everything to do with CC spammers and bad use of absolve.​​

    Personally, I'm seeing a lot less of those sorts of explicit screw ups in the last 2 weeks.

    But I am noticing us not being able to pass the DPS checks so it'd be great if everyone involved in the encounter could know what they are contributing *while it's happening*.
    But will it help if we do not know what the actual DPS check is?

    I mean, how much damage is "enough"?
    How fast is she regenerating?
    How many people are there?
    What is the average DPS needed per character to overcome her heal check?
    And if tanks and healers affect her regen numbers, then how much DPS do the DPSers need to be putting out to make up for the non-DPSers?

    Just throwing out some numbers won't tell us that. Not unless those numbers become far more detailed, and they would then need to be personalized for each character.
    After all, I can't go scrolling through some list of 40 names to find mine in the middle of a fight and still be contributing to said fight in any way.

    And then, even if they did personalize the numbers and tell everyone whether they were carrying their weight, how many people do you think would drop out if it was revealed that they were not?
    Maybe they aren't ever going to be at the top of the DPS charts. Does that mean that they shouldn't be able to participate?

    That brings me to my least-liked least-liked change in the cosmic fights, and it has nothing to do with the game itself.
    Some people seem to think that they are "in charge" and are acting like jerks, and it has only seemed to become more frequent as they have tweaked the fights to become harder.

    I'm not talking about people trying to share helpful info or organize the fights in general.
    I mean people telling others to go away because they do not think that they are good enough to be a part of the fight(s). That sort of thing.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,065 Arc User
    edited June 2016



    That brings me to my least-liked least-liked change in the cosmic fights, and it has nothing to do with the game itself.
    Some people seem to think that they are "in charge" and are acting like jerks, and it has only seemed to become more frequent as they have tweaked the fights to become harder.

    I'm not talking about people trying to share helpful info or organize the fights in general.
    I mean people telling others to go away because they do not think that they are good enough to be a part of the fight(s). That sort of thing.

    That sort of thing is bound to happen as Cosmic difficulty was adjusted to be harder. It alienates players to some extent.

    If each player present adds a certain amount to her difficulty but cannot put out enough DPS to counter their presence, it makes things difficult for everyone.

    These changes force the idea of cosmics being better for a number of players, who are highly organized (and in some instances better geared) and dissuading players who want to show up to fight but are deemed "not good enough".

    I'm not sure what sort of solution would be presented aside from people telling everyone else to "get better or GTFO" which is very bad.

    NOTE: I say this without having actual experience of fighting Cosmics since the most recent update to them (this week?). So it may be less of an issue that I imagine.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    NOTE: I say this without having actual experience of fighting Cosmics since the most recent update to them (this week?). So it may be less of an issue that I imagine.

    I suspect the main way you'll actually see it manifest is the withering away of public channels, only announcing cosmic attempts on channels that are limited to 'good enough' players.
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,510 Arc User
    edited June 2016


    I mean people telling others to go away because they do not think that they are good enough to be a part of the fight(s). That sort of thing.

    Let's use our imagination a bit for funsies.

    Imagine if everyone could join your instance of TA with you not being able to do anything about it. You reach Medusa, you explain the group that you have to pick no more than 2 bombs, but there is one guy that repeatedly picks up 3 causing you to wipe. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Through the other 4 people putting up extra effort to carry this guy, you reach Teleios. You explain the mechanic about sharing the DoT. This guy doesn't listen and just continually picks the DoT and drops it on the Tank or the healer. Over and over and over and over and over and over again. Are you going to tell me you will not ask that player to leave? If you aren't, then I envy the vast patience and time you have at your disposal.

    That's the Cosmic experience that's been going around the past week.

    Cosmic are endgame content just like TA (albeit not that hard), but them being open world gives people the wrong idea that they are meant to be done by everyone.

    They are, to an extent, but mostly they are meant to be done by people who can cooperate and are willing to learn what they are supposed to be doing.

    edit: I know that you made this post in reference to the Teleiosaurus run 2 days ago, so here I took the time to write this post so you can see what people were talking about

    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1205650/teleiosaurus-and-dps-check
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    Generally speaking, way too many people jump to the "it's the gear" excuse way too quickly. It's a matter of strategy, willingness to try things, and execution.

    Getting Justice gear with r9 mods will not do anything to save you if you're a DPSer using crippling challenge on a cosmic. You will get yourself and others around you killed either way. Stop using gear as an excuse to not learn the fights and get better.

    If you use Merc gear with r5s you can still contribute. Can you contribute more with better gear? Sure. But it doesn't make the difference between people being patient and thoughtful vs not.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    The hardest and most time-consuming thing about the cosmics is getting organized. You can do that wearing any gear you want
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited June 2016
    During one of the Donkey Wrong fights I've been in I've shouted hearts in zone only to get a reply from a try hard of "but my score" ಠ_ಠ

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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    nepht said:

    During one of the Donkey Wrong fights I've been in I've shouted hearts in zone only to get a reply from a try hard of "but my score" ಠ_ಠ

    Tell that tryhard that the hearts have really low resistence so you'll get more points dpsing it than you will continuing to dps the ape.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Posts: 521 Arc User
    lezard21 said:


    I mean people telling others to go away because they do not think that they are good enough to be a part of the fight(s). That sort of thing.

    Let's use our imagination a bit for funsies.

    Imagine if everyone could join your instance of TA with you not being able to do anything about it. You reach Medusa, you explain the group that you have to pick no more than 2 bombs, but there is one guy that repeatedly picks up 3 causing you to wipe. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Through the other 4 people putting up extra effort to carry this guy, you reach Teleios. You explain the mechanic about sharing the DoT. This guy doesn't listen and just continually picks the DoT and drops it on the Tank or the healer. Over and over and over and over and over and over again. Are you going to tell me you will not ask that player to leave? If you aren't, then I envy the vast patience and time you have at your disposal.

    That's the Cosmic experience that's been going around the past week.

    Cosmic are endgame content just like TA (albeit not that hard), but them being open world gives people the wrong idea that they are meant to be done by everyone.

    They are, to an extent, but mostly they are meant to be done by people who can cooperate and are willing to learn what they are supposed to be doing.

    edit: I know that you made this post in reference to the Teleiosaurus run 2 days ago, so here I took the time to write this post so you can see what people were talking about

    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1205650/teleiosaurus-and-dps-check
    But I still don't see justification for telling people to leave the fight as long as they are trying.

    Cryptic decides to move these into some instanced area? Maybe makes them a 20 person queue or something of that sort repeatable by any given character X many times per day? Get your premades together and go tear it up.

    As they are now though? If someone is trying then I don't think anyone has any right to tell them where to get off.

    That's not to give the devs a pass.
    They threw these guys out into the great wide world. If some random passer-by can make everyone else fail a DPS check or whatever and drag the whole thing down then maybe they should think about some other ways to add a challenge or recalculate Dinomom's regeneration rate.

    It's bad enough that there are people that go out of their way to cause failures.
  • edited June 2016
    As someone who routinely scores high in the cosmic leaderboards, I wholeheartedly support this suggestion, as the current system incentivizes bad behavior. I would prefer a "scoreboard" like the ones in alerts, where everyone is listed and gets an equal score. If people really want to check their e-peen, they can just have a dps parser on during the fight.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited June 2016


    But I still don't see justification for telling people to leave the fight as long as they are trying.

    The justification is that they're frustrated and decided to vent in a public chat channel. It's gonna happen, and the best thing to do is to just pay them no mind since you know they're just being frustrated and venting... and also they can't actually make anyone leave, so who cares.

    I personally haven't seen anyone doing this anyway.
  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    The justification is that they're frustrated and decided to vent in a public chat channel. It's gonna happen, and the best thing to do is to just pay them no mind since you know they're just being frustrated and venting... and also they can't actually make anyone leave, so who cares.

    I personally haven't seen anyone doing this anyway.

    I've seen it happening in the Cosmic HQ chat. Were one frustrated person was yelling that people need to leave.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    But I still don't see justification for telling people to leave the fight as long as they are trying.

    If we define 'trying' as 'willing to learn the details of the fight, follow the plan if someone's organizing, and actually play your role properly', there wouldn't be any need to tell people to leave in the first place. The minimum threshold for being a net asset in cosmic fights is not high.
  • stellariodragonstellariodragon Posts: 588 Arc User
    Maybe have the cosmics summon adds until the Cosmics' health is at 95% or whatever? That way they have something to pew pew instead.
  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    the skirmish tables for NW, give rankings of;
    1. damage given out,
    2. damage taken
    3. healing receiving
    4. healing done
    and there's a perk for being on 20% or less health for most of the skirmish.

    we could have ones for 80%+ or 20%-​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User


    I've seen it happening in the Cosmic HQ chat. Were one frustrated person was yelling that people need to leave.

    Well if I see them doing it I'll smack them with the admin stick. Right on their bottom. Or if it's who I think it is... I'll smack them on the nose with a newspaper.
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