Threat tracker

raighn

A simple suggestion... Add a new option to the combat log that will show your threat values.

The reason is just so we have a proper way to gauge our threat and people can get a better understanding of how different threat mechanics really work. It could also be used to spot bugs, like powers that aren't generating the threat that they are supposed to (such as everyone's favorite Devour Essence which isn't supposed to generate threat from it's heal but is widely believed that it does)...

championshewolf

raighn wrote: »

A simple suggestion... Add a new option to the combat log that will show your threat values.

The reason is just so we have a proper way to gauge our threat and people can get a better understanding of how different threat mechanics really work. It could also be used to spot bugs, like powers that aren't generating the threat that they are supposed to (such as everyone's favorite Devour Essence which isn't supposed to generate threat from it's heal but is widely believed that it does)...

This exists in WoW, it still did nothing to solve the fact bad players will tunnel vision / rely on a mod to tell them what to do instead of doing the logical thing. Over the past few weeks, look at how many DPS only people got large swaths of the team killed because they kept spamming powers with Crippling Challenge on them?

Not to sound negative, but having a threat meter or showing threat won't fix the problem of players that just don't give one damn about the rest of the game, only themselves.​​

raighn

championshewolf said:

This exists in WoW, it still did nothing to solve the fact bad players will tunnel vision / rely on a mod to tell them what to do instead of doing the logical thing. Over the past few weeks, look at how many DPS only people got large swaths of the team killed because they kept spamming powers with Crippling Challenge on them?

Not to sound negative, but having a threat meter or showing threat won't fix the problem of players that just don't give one damn about the rest of the game, only themselves.​​

The addon versions used in WoW by the playerbase was something that came about for QoL by allowing you to gauge at a glance where you rate compared to your teamates in your threat at any given moment. And the addons that litteraly handhold you and tell you what to do were made as teaching aids for new/returning players. I'm not asking for something to that extent.

I also don't expect this to "fix" anything... I'm requesting this beccause of how it can HELP. It's a stepping stone suggestion. One small thing to give us a proper way to acess threat values. If we can view ours and other peoples threat and source then we as a community can better address issues with DPS using CripC/CS. The debuff doesn't tell us who used it, and I can tell you right now from experince, the "Forced Taunt" doesn't always force them to target you even. I have on numerous occasions been in threat wars with high damage DPS and have seen my CripC taunt go it's full duration without ever pulling the enemy off of them, I've even stopped applying CripC on a few occations to see if they were spamming a CripC ability preventing me from taunting them only to disccover they were infact NOT. It is entirely possible for someone with enough DPS to out threat the Taunt from CripC, I have seen it happen multiple times.

The objective of this suggestion is simply the implementation of a tool. What happens after that depends entirely on how the community chooses to use the tool. I see this tool providing multiple avenues to change. One such possibility is that by allowing players to actually SEE what the real threat values of powers are, we can more appropriately address the concerns with how threat works. This benefit applies to both threat generation AND threat wipes/reductions. Curious as to how much that aggression stealth actually impacts your threat? You'll finally know. Can't figure out why everything always targets you at the start of every encounter despite you not having any healing or damage auras? You should with any luck be able to solve that mystery as well. Just can't figure out why spamming Power X holds aggro far better than Power Y despite having the same DPS? You can figure that out too...

The threat log is simply a tool to help gauge threat in an official capacity and enables us as a community to use that information to make improvements in both how we manage threat and in the discovery of bugs we may otherwise never know exist. Consider every power that has a bonus DoT that it applies, many of them deal lower base damage than similar powers that don't have DoTs, how many of those DoTs even contribute to Threat? And how many of those powers generate less threat in the long run as a result? If we could see these values then we could use that information to provide the devs with feedback that can greatly improve threat management. There is a large potential behind such a simple tool.

championshewolf

It really won't help. It takes roughly 2 minutes, tops, 5 minutes if you take your time, to calculate your total threat you do.

The problem isn't seeing what amount of threat you do, the problem is people building poorly, and believing they only have to rely on CC or CS to do everything for them.​​

roughbearmattach

A positive effect (and one which I think was intended by the devs) of the new tough content (giant monsters, TA, even Nightmare invasion, to some degree) is it is forcing the player base to reconsider build theory. For a long time, a super-high DPS character with some defense could pretty easily solo anything in the game, and big events featured autowin bosses, like the Blood Moon undead heroes or Takofanes. You could just show up with a bunch of DPS and always succeed. Why not throw in Crip Chall, too? Gives a debuff, and useful in occasional PvP.

Now, players are seeing that these builds sometimes don't work well in groups. Threat management is essential in the new content. They are also seeing the value of tank and healer roles, as well as the "off-tank" role, DPS w/rezzing, and even AoE-focused role. Some folks have retooled, some are working on new characters to fill these roles, and yes, some are still just using their old solo-DPS builds. It is beginning to change, though.


P.S. People using exploits to boost DPS to stratospheric levels is part of this threat issue, too. Just sayin.

jadejade3

Contrary to what you say, with a threat meter, people who are new to the game or tanking can see the actual values of much threat certain powers generate for their gear, and how does it scale with making changes to stats,specs etc.; which will enable them to build better, not shoot in the dark, and keep doing smash alerts to retcon till you finally find a decent build to your liking. To make calculation crystal clear, why not put the threat values a power as a whole generates, accounting for damage, heal, role, cc, cs etc. on the tooltip itself? If an aggro meter is really that pointless.
On a side note, you didn't tell him if the heal from DE generates threat, if the dots will compensate the reduced damage, the effectiveness of threat wipes/stealth etc. (and I admit I am skeptical of a handful of things myself). Only that believing cc and cs is going to make him tank is not the answer. Great. So now, he apparently didn't know what's actually better for his build/gear, and suggested something he felt would help him not 'build poorly'. You point out his suggestion wont help, but in the end, you haven't really mentioned a better solution, and continue to let him build poorly, but maybe not as poorly if he does (inaccurate) calculations. Though yes, you aren't obliged to, but thats that.

Your guide is excellent, no doubt. But it suffers from the very things which would be solved by a threat meter - showing how much threat exactly and who has it, and if the calculated threat matches the real threat. Dont mind. If you want me to remove it, I gladly will.

What about Challenging Strikes and Crippling Challenge?
Now, Challenging Strikes is very good to use in AE situations, provided you are using it on a channeled power. Unlike Crippling Challenge, Challening Strikes actually delivers threat over a period of 10 seconds. It's 1 tick per 1 second, and according to the tooltip at level 40 it is 2000 threat over 10 seconds, so about 200 threat per tick. However, it seems additional threat is also generated that isn't mentioned, and how much this is is unknown. Over all, the best AE threat generators are channeled ones as you can keep them steadily applying threat instead of on a per hit basis.
(hmm, if you say so)

Does regeneration generate threat?
No. Regeneration generates no threat. There are certain heals that don't generate threat either, like the heal from Devour Essence isn't suppose to generate threat.
(sounds like it doesn't)
A few comments later...:
It's not easy to gauge as not all healing power generate threat, or are suppose to anyways. Some had the threat removed, others are supposedly not suppose to generate threat, but obviously do. Regeneration I know doesn't generate any threat, but the healing component of Devour Essence isn't suppose to generate threat either but it does.
(Oh. Oh no.)

Also remember that range plays a factor in this. The farther a target is away, the less threat they generate compared to closer people.
(Wo, how much?)

The only thing I gather, is that you aren't exactly sure as well. If you are, or anyone else is, please let us know, update, with a confirmation/approval from the devs. And don't forget some of my doubts, including the few mentioned above! thanks!

Why does the bonus/extra threat from defensive combo increase from 350 in tank role and hybrid role to 438 in meelee dps role. Is the bonus flat or modified by role.
Does the threat from cs tick apply at t=0s or t=1s.
Does the heal from Sentinel Mastery generate aggro to the caster/applier of the buff, or individually to those who proc the heal from it.
What is the exact bonus threat% from onslaught gloves of the defender. (helps us calculate, for giggles, and will also explain why do dps magically take aggro, even with their reduction.)
Maybe some more, but these come to mind atm.




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vitalityprime

I'm not sure how a threat meter wouldn't help. If the problem is people building poorly, then people could say, look at how much threat you are actually doing.

The biggest thing to realize, is that compared to some others games, threat/agro is vastly different here. In said other games, tanks didn't have to worry about building for damage at all. All they had to do was build for defense/survival, and threat/agro came through easy toggles and the equivalent of CC on every attack.

So I can easily see why some people "build poorly" here when it comes to tanks.

Just because going back to calculate your threat is easy to some...I have no doubt that a new player may have no idea how to even go about calculating threat.

So even if a threat meter is not needed by those who are in the know with all the numbers and mechanics, it would certainly help newer players. At the very least, it would not hurt the game at all to have it.

nacito

championshewolf said:

Not to sound negative, but having a threat meter or showing threat won't fix the problem of players that just don't give one damn about the rest of the game, only themselves.​​

and what the hell will fix this problem then? forcing people to do the right thing?

vitalityprime said:

The biggest thing to realize, is that compared to some others games, threat/agro is vastly different here. In said other games, tanks didn't have to worry about building for damage at all. All they had to do was build for defense/survival, and threat/agro came through easy toggles and the equivalent of CC on every attack.

I can confirm this

raighn

I'm glad the rest of ya'll understand... This isn't about "Fixing" the threat problem, it's about providing a tool that th comunity can use to accomplish various different things to help with the threat problem. Gives us a 100% accurate gauge of threat values. What is done with that information is up to everyone... Do you use it to find and report bugs hidden in the threat system? Do you use it to improve your threat generation? Do you use it to reduce your threat generation? Do you use it to monitor threat output of allies? There are many possibilities. As I stated earlier this is a steppingstone suggestion. It on its own is not meant to fix anything but to provide a tool that can potentailly lead to solutions.