test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Make Defender Gloves shield scale based on threat instead of damage
morigosa
Posts: 710 Arc User
As per title. At the very least, it should scale in a role-dependent fashion to reduce the incentive to slap it on DPS characters - and better reward tanks for actually using tank role.
0
Comments
Not just a small change like you're suggesting, but a massive rethink about what roles actually need and want, or abilities that might be useful. The support gloves are pretty much junk, tanks would rather have bonus threat + bonus damage, and dps would rather have the shield and reduced threat in most cases.
5,000 dps avenger toon: 250 shield and 250 threat per second. The threat is reduced to about 150 because of role, the shield is post-mitigation so a wardicator build might get a realistic tanking ability of 400-500/sec.
2,000 dps tank toon: 100 shield and 100 threat per second; this is affected by role and passive to be an effective threat of 180 threat/sec and a bit over 300 tank/sec.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
So, if you have gear that increases threat, and you switch over to a damage role (for whatever reason), the threat increase no longer applies, but all the other effect of the gear remain. Or if you have crippling challenge on a power, the added threat and hard taunt don't apply when you run in a damage role.
By the same token, the tank role could disable things that reduce threat. Though that reopens another argument.
Changing it to scale with threat I doubt would fix the actual problem. Alas, the issue is these gloves should have never been released to give a shield or anything like that. The increased threat should have been enough, at least for tanking players.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Changing it to scale with threat I doubt would fix the actual problem. Alas, the issue is these gloves should have never been released to give a shield or anything like that. The increased threat should have been enough, at least for tanking players.
I'm sorry... but no... The shield on them is actually a perfect complement for tanks. The whole point of the gloves was to make tanks tankier. Only giving them bonus threat merely makes them more threatening at which point they may as well rename them. The threat bonus and the shield creates the whole package. The shield is basically like giving the tank an automatic small self heal every couple seconds. It prolongs their life and allows them to do their job better.
You can preach all you want about how you believe tanking should work, but it wont change how it DOES work. A tank MUST be able to survive and they MUST be able to hold aggro over their allies, that is a fact. These gloves aid in both aspects, plain and simple.
That said... I agree with the OP, make it scale off threat instead of damage... That way the sheild is more benefitial to tanks. If a DPS still wants to take them they can still benefit but to a lesser degree...
Using Pantagruel's example numbers:
5000 DPS avenger (-35% threat): 137.5 Shield
2000 DPS tank (+75% threat): 185 Shield
It might not quite reverse the shield values as would really be desired, but it does offset it enough to make them more beneficial to tanks than to DPS.
I hate to admit it, but sturdy dps (with or without CripC/CS) CAN hold aggro over bosses with just these gloves. It is even possible to outaggro most tanks. There are also time where dps can outaggro hem w/o the gloves.
It is disappointing to see dps having better threat generation than tanks. Maybe the formula for threat generation should be change so dps won't get most of the aggro.
__________________________________________________________________
Alts:
Lord Sans (Full Healer FF)/Axel Leonard (Crowd Controller/Off-Tank)
- - - - - -
Feel free to visit my websites!^^:
DeviantART|FurAffinity|
Twitter
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Personally I think they should just remove the threat and the shield, instead raise tank role threat by 10% and give the role a slight bit more defense boost ( effectively giving everyone in tank role the gloves ), and then just turn the gloves into a piece that gives high defense on par with the level the other onslaught secondaries are on. That way people can stop doing non-tanking content to get the best tank gloves in the game - the gear you get should reflect the activities you engage in.
Given my way I would remove Onslaught Gear from the onslaught vendor entirely and have that content just be about getting powers and costume pieces.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
It won't solve the problem. Plain and simple. Changing it to scale off threat only shifts the goal posts slightly, and at best, still makes them highly desirable for DPS, while only making them moderately more useful for tanks. Again, the shield was a terrible idea, and unless drastic measures are taken it's always going to be picked by those that think they are useful to them and turn around and blame tanks for losing aggro. These gloves convert 10% of your damage into additional threat, so really you are kind of shooting the argument of building off threat only in the foot.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
And it would help to solve the problem of tanks finding that they survive better in hybrid role than tank role. (Because, y'know, not every tank runs around with Regen - and for those of us who don't, having some extra ability to sustain our own health is actually really useful.) Now that is a separate issue! If they're giving larger threat bonuses to DPS than to tanks, that sounds like a bug that should be fixed. I hadn't heard about this before; how did you find out the exact mechanics of the gloves' threat bonus?
And ATs can't do things like take threat wipes or more defensive skills to help survive that sort of abuse - their skills are fixed. (And half the threat wipes are lies and don't actually wipe threat - smoke bomb was a huge disappointment). The defender gloves is one of their few options (along with a small selection of devices) to increase their survivability when it becomes apparent that there are maybe 5 tank players in the game who have a prayer of actually keeping aggro away from them.
So yeah, certain sturdy very high dps characters, especially ATs, are going to find defender gloves invaluable because tank mechanics are in a really bad place in this game. How about we fix tanking mechanics first before we mess with the gloves?
Given a choice between 10% more threat and 10% more damage you will get more threat from the 10% more damage. A tank dealing 2000 dps with 75% bonus threat from stats would generate 3900 tps with defender gloves. Give the same tank 10% more damage instead and they generate 4070 tps. And that is what you'll get from the other options. So no removing the shield is not the solution. Removing the shield would make them worthless. The loss of about 5% threat is acceptable when traded for a shield but not worth it when there is no trade off. Plus as I've said before that shield help tanks to be tankier and gives them the ability to trade a little bit of their defenses for more damage to get more threat and as a result a better shield thus giving them even more defensive ability... you know that balancing act you said was so important for tanks in another thread.. these gloves enable that on a whole new level and help tanks accomplish it. Remove the shield and that's all gone
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Instead of trying to get the shield removed you should focus on making them far far less appealing to dps without destroying the m for tanks in the process.
Yea, and that's the problem. They got them for the wrong reason. And no, it's not a bait and switch. Please stop trying to straw man the point.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Yea, and that's the problem. They got them for the wrong reason. And no, it's not a bait and switch. Please stop trying to straw man the point.
Well allow me to be blunt... Im getting them for BOTH the Shield and Bonus Threat... If I wanted just the extra threat I'd take Sniper or Slicer since as I've spelled out multiple times now the bonus damage from them results in more threat than that 10% bonus threat. And I'd rather be able to trade some defensive options in stats/specs/cores for more offensive options than just more threat... something that getting BOTH the shield and bonus threat enables without negatively impacting my survivability.
the shield defensive option is actually fairly weak and the whole, it gives defense is moot, since the only place that the defense actually comes in play is content you really don't need it because you have little risk of being hurt. And while the bonus damage might be good on a DPS build I doubt it is as good on a tank build. Since a tank build 10% threat is that of your damage then that is multiplied by your modifier. So, no, they aren't better if you were going for tanking purposes. So saying the shield is mandatory for your survival seems to be stretching things since at best 300 points won't change much in the grand scheme of the content that the shield would have mattered.
After all, the proof is in the actual physical evidence, not the anecdotal that you provide, since if the tank glove threat was so meager, then people using sniper and slicer would easily tear threat away from tanks in those cases, but as evidenced otherwise, they do not. However, DPS that does use the threat gloves do, and considering the threat gloves even help low threat tanks maintain aggro, I think you are really trying to create an issue that does not exist. The gloves should have been for tanking, but because of the misguided notion the shields are just so good, people keep getting them and they wonder why they get aggro.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
In other situations, the shield is too good and exacerbates the issue of "players are too strong" - with those gloves on a dps toon I'm just plain unkillable in a lot of content thanks to the shield alone, trivialized content becomes even more trivialized, just mash that aoe button and hold W. And yeah, I get that some people like the shields because it allows you to do that "mindless face tanking" thing, but trivialized content still isn't a good thing even all these years later and never will be. You wanna feel like Superman beating up some bank robbers, go to Westside.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I've spelled it out directly multiple times now and I'm done repeating myself. The shield is part of the package. The solution is not to remove the shield, but to find some other way to make them unappealing to DPS. Quite frankly, the majority of the DPS role players who are using Defender Gloves are in all likelyness buillt for PvP so they are almost certain to also be spamming CripC on enemies as well. We all know that when it comes to PvP builds the concept of "threat" doesn't apply all they look at are buffs, debuffs, and damage. If something can make them survive longer they will take it regarddless of if it also gives them 1,000,000 threat per second because they didn't build for PvE. Honesstly a lot of the issues in the game can be traced back to PvP builds.
But I digress. I've outlined already how scaling the shield off threat instead of damage can radically change who benefits. And I've outlined what exactly will happen if the shield is removed, if you missed it, just go back and re-readd it.
One last thing... perhaps instead of making the shield a flat 5% of damage dealt it could be Bonus Threat% of damage dealt/4 (threat penalties not factored)
Non-tanks would in effect get 2.5% due to the 10% bonus threat being their only bonus threat. Half of what it gives them currently.
Tanks could get an upwards of about 20% making the shield infinately more appealing to tanks.
Or even do factor threat penalty thus resulting in DPS and Support getting 0 shield due to a penalty that exceeds the bonus from the gloves. Actually lets just go with that... DPS won't get the shield any more and as a result they will switch to slicer or sniper, and tanks will get a noticable shield from it. Problem solved.
I've got a second dps character who probably *should* have opted for Defender gloves, cause she always ends up tanking too.
You do enough colossus fights and you'll see it too. The fights with several to half a dozen tanks who never have aggro, which passes around between dps characters like crazy. Sometimes you don't get any great dps, and the tanks can hold aggro even if they suck. Rarely you get great tanks who can hold aggro even with top tier dps. But a good fraction of the time you get great dps with crappy tanks, and dps end up trading aggro until it dies.
I have at least 4 dps characters i've done the event with where i've either ended up being primary 'tank', or i've gotten aggro repeatedly and simply couldn't survive that attention (or at least had to block until he moved on). I've got a 5th who occasionally generates that kind of attention (and has to threat wipe immediately or die - unfortunately, sniper rifle at 120' is in range of his lunge, but not close enough to use EM). Only one of these has defender gloves (and she had this kind of problem long before Onslaught gear was even a thing).
Two of those five are ATs and can't take a threat wipe (one of which picked up defender gloves cause she always had the aggro). One of those five is perfectly happy to tank (not the one with the defender gloves). One is the aforementioned sniper, and the last took a threat wipe, except it doesn't actually wipe threat like it says it should (smoke bomb), and i haven't bothered to retcon it.
Bonus: the 1% of tanks who are any good keep aggro off my dps AT with defender gloves just fine. It didn't change a thing about when she had aggro and when she miraculously doesn't.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
so the threat problem was actually even before OV, and with these new gloves the problems just got more obvious
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1203839/lets-talk-about-the-threat-generation-problem
at least it dates from December last year, so its an issue that must be solved, priorities priorities...
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
I hate repeating myself so much, but here's the math again for ya'll...
For the sake of simplicity this is going to be based on 1000 damage before the gloves bonus.
Base: (No bonus)
DPS: (-30% Threat) 1000 x (1 -0.3) = 700
Hybrid: (0% Threat) 1000 x 1 = 1000 Threat
Tank: (75% Threat) 1000 x (1.1 +0.75) = 1850 Threat
Tank: (50% Threat) 1000 x (1.1 +0.5) = 1600 Threat
Slicer Gloves: (+10% Extra Damage) 1000 x 1.1 = 1100 damage
DPS: (-30% Threat) 1100 x (1 -0.3) = 770 Threat
Hybrid: (0% Threat) 1100 x 1 = 1100 Threat
Tank: (75% Threat) 1100 x (1.1 +0.75) = 2035 Threat
Tank: (50% Threat) 1100 x (1.1) +0.5) = 1760 Threat
Defender Gloves: (+10% Threat) 1 +0.1 = 1.1 Threat
DPS: (-30% Threat) 1000 x (1.1 -0.3) = 800 Threat
Hybrid: (0% Threat) 1000 x 1.1 = 1100 Threat
Tank: (75% Threat) 1000 x (1.2 +0.75) = 1950 Threat
Tank: (50% Threat) 1000 x (1.2 +0.5) = 1700 Threat
Even at the low end of tank threat (+50%) you STILL get more threat out of an extra 10% damage than you do from an extra 10% threat. And remember this is an ACTUAL 10% more damage not a 10% cryptic math damage bonus that equates to 1% actual...
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Result: Average DPS threat = 0.8, Hybrid Threat = 1.1, Tank threat = 1.7~1.95
If you want to say it's 10% of your base damage then you're turning that 10% threat bonus into something closer to a 3% threat bonus on super DPS builds and a 5% threat bonus on any tank with at least a half decent damage bonus.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
40% Resist
50% Threat w/slicer: 1100/1.4 = 786 x 1.6 = 1257
50% Threat w/defender: 1000/1.4 = 714 x 1.6 = 1142 + 100 = 1242
75% Threat w/slicer: 1100/1.4 = 786 x 1.85 = 1454
75% Threat w/defender: 1000/1.4 = 714 x 1.85 = 1321 + 100 = 1421
100% Resist
50% Threat w/slicer: 1100/2 = 550 * 1.6 = 880
50% Threat w/defender: 1000/2 = 500 * 1.6 = 800 + 100 = 900
75% Threat w/slicer: 1100/2 = 550 * 1.85 = 1018
75% Threat w/defender: 1000/2 = 500 * 1.85 = 925 + 100 = 1025
So against low resistance mooks you'll have lower threat with defenders than with slicer/sniper... but with higher resistances than defenders does start to pull ahead... but that is if the threat from them really does follow your damage prior to resistance. So if that really is how they work then I suppose they will still be valuable against bosses where they really matter... If the 10% extra damage from Slicer/Sniper is based on your damage prior to resistance and ignores resistances as well then the result would be back in favor of Slicer/Sniper all around... unless the bonus damage from Slicer/Sniper don't even provide threat... in which case ignore my entire point...
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained