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Threat Advantages for Defensive Passives
maatmons
Posts: 347 Arc User1
Defiance
- Menace
- 1-Point Advantage
- Each stack of defiance now gives you +X% to threat generation.
Invulnerability
- Show Disdain
- 1-Point Advantage
- Each time you take damage, if it is less than X points, you generate Y threat against all nearby enemies.
Lightning Reflexes
- Taunt
- 1-Point Advantage
- Whenever you dodge an attack, you generate threat against the attacking enemy. The amount of threat generated increases for more powerful attacks.
Personal Force Fields
- Reveal Weakness
- 1-Point Advantage
- When your shield strength is below X%, you passively generate Y threat per second against all nearby enemies. This effect only occurs while in combat.
Regeneration
- Frustrate
- 1-Point Advantage
- Healing from regeneration now generates threat just as other healing does. This effect only occurs while in combat.
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Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I don't have dedicated tank builds but I think it would simply be better for Tank Role to have something like this:
"Absorb Threat" - Innate Tank Role ability which you can activate but has a cool down. It will absorb threat from everyone around you within a 50ft sphere who is attacking the same target you are. This works by essentially taking their threat and dumping it on you. Absorb Threat scales with your threat generation and will override less powerful Absorb Threat's.
EDIT: sphere range is a bit iffy right now, since off tanks in TA would or rather could be within a 50ft radius...unlikely though.
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This would also create issues in off tank scenarios.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Tanks in this game need to keep up a pretty substantial damage output to hold aggro, or so I'm told. Other games let tanks hold aggro while dealing relatively little damage, with more emphasis on taunts and percent increases to threat generated. Or, again, so I'm told. Which method is “right?” I don't know. As I said, I don't do much group content. In any case, a fair number of people have expressed their wishes for something like this, so I decided to try my hand at an implementation.
Well, if +X is a bit much, what would an appropriate amount be? +½X maybe, or even +¼X?
Okay, sorry. It's just a pet peeve of mine for people to describe something as “too much” when there's been no actual hint of the quantity.
To some extent, a valid complaint. The advantage for defiance would produce the most threat when you're being attacked, but it will help with threat generation even if you're not. If you rank up defiance, you could have three stacks at all times, which would still be a decent amount of help. People keep telling me there's no reason to rank up defiance, so I figured creating one wouldn't hurt.
The advantage for invulnerability was meant to allow someone to leverage the attention of one enemy to gain the attention of another. So you could get the attention of some weak mobs, then use that to get the attention of the main boss. It seemed like an interesting alternate strategy someone might want to try out.
If that's not going to work, I had a different idea too. The “Show Disdain” advantage would passively generate threat against nearby enemies, but it would be disabled briefly whenever you take more than a set amount of damage from a single hit. Naturally, this would also be disabled outside of combat.
The advantage for personal force field was deliberately meant as a sort of catch 22. You don't just need to be attacked to get your aggro generation method going, the attacks have to have already succeeded in taking off most of your defenses. This gives you enemy attention when it's most dangerous to have it. I was figuring this tactic would be heavily reliant on healers and blocking, since you couldn't easily pass aggro off to someone else when you're hurting. It seemed like a tank that blocks a lot would be an interesting contrast to what we have now.
The “Taunt” advantage could, I suppose, passively generate threat against nearby enemies that aren't attacking you, and not against those that are. It could still grant an extra burst of threat when an enemy misses you. That all really seems in keeping with the notion of taunting.
I was under the mistaken impression that regeneration kept healing you even when you were at full hit points. So I thought this one was going to be continuous passive threat generation, with an increased rate when you're taking damage. I just checked, and it doesn't work that way at all.
One option would be to make them separate toggle powers, but grant them automatically with the passive, and make them require the passive to function. Sort of like how night warrior and sneak interact.
Another option would be to create a set of threat-altering toggles, but completely separate from an passives. These would all be mutually exclusive with each other, just as forms are. There could also be threat-reducing toggles that mirror the threat-increasing ones.
A third option would be like the one above, but the powers would also be incompatible with forms, because they would be forms.
The toggles are actually more in line with what some other popular MMOs do for tanks. Toggleable abilities that grant bonus threat generation while active, which gives tanks in those games a way to reduce their personal threat generation when doing large group content with multiple tanks so that they can have Main and Off Tanks... generally in those games a the tanks will swap with eachother between encounters or after so much time on tough bosses... a Tactic that isn't really implored here, but I mention it to showcase what such toggles are capable of. Adding such tools can lead to an entirely new team dynamic for future (and some current) champions content.
I Have to say, the advantage sugestion for Defiance is certainly something that Defiance SHOULD have... unlike with other defensive passives, a defiance tank suffers quite a bit if they lose aggro at any point... Making an advantage for Defiance that boosts their threat generation with each stack would help quite a bit for maintaining those stacks... even more so if it were to apply a set amount of threat to your attackers when hit.
Also... your alternative for your advantage for Invuln is essentually the exact same thing as your original suggestion... If the original doesn't work out then changing it how you've suggested will also not work out. The issue that is likely to arise with it is that you will often either A ) NOT have adds dealing small hits to you to build up your threat against a boss, B ) Be constantly taking large hits thus NOT getting any bonus threat, or C ) Just not be taking any damage... Situation A really breaks down into B and C simultanesously since you will either not be taking damage or be taking too much damage all the time... situation B is best solved by your original suggestion since small hits would still benefit your threat even with the big hits... situation C is the only time your change would benefit since you'd generate more threat just by being in combat, but against a boss (where you want the bonus threat) it'd be constantly disabled... which is a problem...
Your Catch 22 for PFF is a suicide advantage... Unless PFF gets altered to have INCREASED sheild regen at low shields (or if this advantage makes that change) then taking this advantage on a PFF tank would be a nightmare for both the tank and any healer on them. PFF is in a bad spot as is when it comes to tanking, there is no reason to make it worse... Now if the advantage did include a boosted shield regen at low shieldss then I would certainly say that this advantage would be a welcome addition to PFF and many PFF tanks would take it simply for the shield regen aspect and see the threat gen as a bonus...
The taunt for LR is something that would be hillarious if dodge just did innately... and logically should... I mean think about it... an enemy tries to hit you and they miss because you dodged out of the way, your going to frustrate them and cause them to try again... But focusing on it as an advantage, it should totally have a stacking mechanic that is mutually exclusive to LRs dodge buff stacks... make it so that with each consecutive dodge you gain a bonus threat buff that lasts until your next failed dodge then LR tanks are doing an interesting balancing act between high threat and dodgeing...
Even without Regen ticking off at full health the advantage you proposed would STILL provide a reliable amount of bonus threat. So long as your taking damage you'd be generating threat since you'd always be healing... My regen tank actually uses this principle to help her hold aggro by running Sentinel Aura along side her Regen...
And to counter your argument about DPS damage buff increasing their threat, it is decreased by their super stats in their role, so it's a counter balance. But tanks need to build their offense to. This game is not designed for tanks to have roll over threat where they just stand there and everything attacks them like it happens in WoW or in CoH or other games. This is more about individual responsibility than anything else.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
For this, I recorded the damage my tool tip displays for my first attack with Ego Weaponry, as well as the sum of the numbers my tooltip gave me for threat adjustment from superstats for each roll. The offensive passive I used was Id Mastery. And the defensive passive I used was no passive, because a defensive passive wouldn't change the numbers I was looking at.
Damage Role and Offensive Passive: 627 damage and -30% threat generation = 439 threat
Hybrid Role and Offensive Passive: 524 damage and no threat adjustment = 524 threat
Hybrid Role and Defensive Passive: 374 damage and no threat adjustment = 374 threat
Tank Role and Defensive Passive: 311 damage and = 468 threat
So, you see, it is, in fact, possible for a tank to use a passive to improve his threat generation. He does it by choosing an offensive passive and running in hybrid role. Since he can already do it, why not let him do it with a broader selection of passives? Why not with the passives supposedly designed with him in mind? Why not let him do it in more roles? Why not bring the threat generation potential of the tank role up to the same level as the hybrid role? The tank role is actually advertised as the role for people who want to generate threat, after all.
Now I suspect someone will come along and say “But the defensive passives have the added benefit of making you harder to kill.” True, but the offensive passives have the added benefit of helping you kill things. If we let defensive passives help with threat to the same extent that offensive passives already do, we aren't going to make defensive passive outshine offensive passives. They each still have their own allure. And remember, making stuff die faster is always useful to the group. Keeping yourself alive is only useful to the group under certain circumstances. Well, that's how it is. But is it how it should be? I don't regard myself as qualified to answer that question. I just know that some people have been wanting more options to make holding aggro easier for a tank, and these seemed like interesting options.
I hardly call that an issue since healing threat is less than damage threat it's easy to overcome healing threat. And that's where DPS is suppose to pick up adds to protect the healer. The fact you got a lot of tunnel visioning DPS lately is part of the problem to.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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No, it's not an issue of people wanting other things. It's an issue of people just don't read and understand. There is no reason a DPS needs CC on a power they spam, at all. It even blatantly states it has a taunt on it and what that taunt does.
Your understanding how threat works is fundamentally flawed. You have a role modifier, tanks have a value of 1.1, DPs has a value of 1, and support has a value of 0.9.
2500 DPS tank with 75% threat from super stats, alone, with have a value of 1.85. That's 4,625 threat per second. (and I am not even adding in extra's like threat boosters and such from tank gloves).
5000 DPS damage dealer with -35% threat from super stats, will have a value of 0.65. That's 3,250 threat per second.
As you can see the tank easily out paces the threat of DPS. This isn't some issue that has cropped up because of people not producing enough threat or not having enough threat reduction. This is a fundamental issue of people building their tanks badly, and quite frankly, high damage DPS not taking threat wipe powers just in case. Tanks that endlessly spam CC aren't going to just hold threat easily with a few exceptions, like Defensive Combo, and even then if they don't have damage backing it up it will probably not be enough.
Yes, it is how it should be. It's a balancing act. It's not intended that a tank just slaps someone and the boss always focuses on them. A team is suppose to work as a team, the tank producing threat, and the DPs managing their threat. It's called individual responsibility and if no one works for it then that's where the problem occurs. In essence the tank has to make themselves look more threatening than the DPS.
In the end the problem stems from people want their cake and eat it to. They don't realize that they are the ones causing the problems. When someone is trying to fight someone who obviously has the threat while spamming their CC attack and a mob turns and nukes an entire group of people, that's not the fault of poor threat of the tank, that's the fault of the CC spammer. People complain about lack of teaming options but never build themselves for team play. That's what it boils down to in the end.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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You obviously didn't read my post, because if you did, you might actually understand better how threat actually works. And To counter your point, since I am in tank role, I hold aggro against someone that does 8k DPS, and they are often happy about the fact they never have to use their threat wipe powers. Before you make assumptions why don't you see me actually tank first. I don't use CC or CS as my infinite threat power and I hardly use them at all. I don't need CC or CS and I am in tank role, and it's blatantly obvious you've never actually teamed or done anything with me in a group to see that.
And if your point is tanking in DPS role, well duh, you aren't suppose to tank in DPS role.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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hybrid 2522
hybrid+unstoppable 2938
tank 2325
So in tank role you get about 80% threat bonus so, you'd do 4185*1.8=4185 threat compared to the <3000 in hybrid role.
Think you might have forgotten to add in form stacks? Those are additive with both the higher damage bonus from hybrid role and with passives.
627 damage in offensive role with 1 base and 30% reduction from stats is 627 x 0.7 = 438.9
524 & 374 damage in hybrid role with 1 base and 0% from stats is 524 & 374
The only one that might be in question is his tank role one since he didn't give his bonus from stats... howevver...
311 in tank role with 1.1 base is 311 x 1.1 = 342.1
From that we can extrapolate approximately a 40.5% bonus from stats for 311 x 1.505 = 468.066
What this illustrates is that if builds are identical with the exception of role and passive a hybrid role DPS with a DPS passive can easily out threat a tank in tank role with a defensive passive. Of course this is also based on a single build and if they really did only have 40.5% bonus threat from stats in tank role...
Now I'll amend my earlier post and say "hybrid role" ratther than offensive role but the point still stands... and the reduction to threat for DPS role only brought it marginally lower than the tank with an identical setup.
Now you say you hold threat over an 8k DPS... using the numbers you posted of 35% and 75% you'd have to deal a little under 3k DPS to out threat them... and I have no doubt that you can pull that off your running a Bestial build so you could possibly be running close to 4k DPS easy... Assuming you are running 4k DPS that means you've got 7400 TPS... If someone were to pull 8k DPS in hybrid role you wouldn't hold threat.
And a furthar point CripC and CS still serve a purpose for tanking. Not everyone who runs a tank is going to use the top DPS powers in the game. Some will use weaker powers for the purpose of theme but still want to and have every right to be competent tanks. I know I've got a couple tanks that don't have high damage powers and need CripC/CS to keep up with threat from DPS builds. Does that make them poorly built? HELL FUCKING NO.
No, you don't understand because tank role gives much higher threat. And it's fundamentally flawed your approach. I don't get where you are pulling this 40.5% bonus from stats from when you can see your threat bonus on super stats. It's clearly obvious you don't understand the system, at all.
Tank threat is 1.1. I will give you a run down bonus from my super stats. 42% from strength, 23% from constitution, and 12% from endurance. That's 77% threat boost from super stats, which means 0.77 added to the 1.1 value or 1.87 threat modifier for me.
Taking your 311 above, that means my threat from that attack is 581.67. I don't see what your extrapolating and your understanding of these mechanics is fundamentally flawed.
Same can be said for the DPS above, base of 1. Strength gives me a -21% threat, constitution gives me a -11% threat, and Endurance gives me 5.9% threat. That's a total of -37.9% threat, or 0.621. Against 627 damage that means the threat of that attack is 389.367.
So in both fields are wrong. And again, proven that in both scenarios, that the tank will hold aggro, without CC, against the DPS.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Now if I didn't make myself clear. I AM NOT MAATMONS. THOSE ARE NOT MY VALUES. I only extrapolated a value from their post.
It's impossible for a tank to have such low threat value unless they are not bothering with their super stats. Even at the low part, a tank should be around 1.79 threat adjustment values and DPS should be around 0.69 and that's basically using heirloom gear. So while you might not be maatmons, using his figures to get the final destination when I posted earlier the actual values is quite a bit disingenuous.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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You could achieve the goal of the OP suggestion much better by just suggesting they increase the threat bonus that tank role gets.
However, I'm not sure either suggestion needs to be implemented. In other MMOs when a tank loses aggro it quite often means the person who pulled it is going to die. However, in CO everyone has a block power and two travel powers that allow the player who pulled aggro to take some pretty meaningful actions in ensuring they don't die. On top of that, FFs and some ATs have access to tools to immediately drop aggro, as well as to become extremely resistant to damage temporarily. Additionally, players have the option of stacking constitution and increasing their mitigation quite a lot even if they're not a tank, something that the glass cannons in other MMOs can't do.
CO is a trinity game, but it's not your typical trinity game where anyone but the tank having aggro equals an immediate reck-fest. It's actually okay if tanks occasionally lose aggro here - the person the aggro goes to just has to respond quickly and appropriately to ensure that they, and potentially others around them, survive until the tank gets it back. In my opinion, tanks losing aggro occasionally actually makes the game more interesting ( and is the reason I'm tempted to take a nap anytime Silverspar is tanking ).
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The particular scenario I delved into was comparing a tank who uses the tank role and a defensive passive against a tank who uses the hybrid role and an offensive passive. Now, I did forget the +10% to threat from the tank role provides independently of super stats. Here, I'll adjust the numbers.
Hybrid Role and Offensive Passive: 524 damage = 524 threat
Tank Role and Defensive Passive: 311 damage +56% threat (from stats) +10% threat (role itself) = 517 threat
As you can see, a tank who uses hybrid role and an offensive passive generates more threat than a tank that uses the things actually meant for tanks. Now, threat generation is kind of a tank's “thing.” If the things built for tanks don't let him do his “thing” as well as if he'd taken different thing, not meant for tanks, maybe we should revise the things meant for tanks.
The build in question uses Mental Discipline, so there are no stacks. Wouldn't the damage from stacks apply equally to both scenarios anyway though?
I'm using heroic gear for my primaries. The armoring and enhancement slots are all rank 5 and all add to one of my super stats. That only gets me up to 1.66 threat adjustment in tank role. Is my gear just unreasonably bad? I thought it was alright temporary gear while I work for better stuff. What's your definition of “the low end?”
You know that's a very good point. Adjusting the role's base threat bonus would do the job with a lot less fuss. Consider my various suggestions withdrawn!
Don't worry, championshewolf, I'll still stop by at least a couple more times to keep arguing with you. It's been too long since I've had a good internet argument.
Unstoppable, Brawler, 8 stacks Enrage: 6402 charged haymaker. Threat adjustment -34.5%, 4760 threat (assuming the reduction is Cryptic Math, not a real reduction).
Unstoppable, Hybrid, 8 stacks Enrage: 5222 charged haymaker. Threat adjustment +0%, 5222 threat
No Passive, Hybrid, 8 stacks Enrage: 4443 charged haymaker. Threat adjustment +0%, 4443 threat
No Passive, Tank, 8 stacks Enrage: 4035 charged haymaker. Threat adjustment +80%, 7263 threat
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My favorite attack, Ego Weaponry, deals 524 + 688 + 1,514 + 1,514 = 4,240 damage in a full cycle when I'm in hybrid role. It deals 627 + 824 + 1,815 + 1,815 = 5,081 damage in a full cycle when I'm in melee damage role.
That full cycle takes 0.35 + 0.4 + 0.75 = 1.5 seconds to complete. So I'm looking at 2,826 or 3,387 dps on that. That'd be 2,826 threat per second in hybrid role, or 2,370 threat per second in melee damage role, factoring in the -30% threat generation I get.
Okay, 3,387 dps is comfortably above the target of 2,561 dps. But 2826 threat per second is below the target of 2,906 threat per second.
On the other hand, Ego Weaponry gives me +5% critical chance for each stack of ego leech, and Mental Discipline gives me +2% per stack. Maybe the extra 35% critical chance makes up for my lower base number?
Anyway, good enough while I work for better gear?