Palliate's "Absolve" Advantage Shouldn't Work On Tank-Role Targets

morigosa

As per title. Had this cause wipes on cosmics a few times. I suspect it may not even have been deliberate trolling, just someone accidentally hitting the wrong power on the wrong target.

theravenforce

There are some "tanks" in tank role out there who really cannot tank, so threat wiping them and allowing real tanks to do their thing has been helpful in the past from what I've seen.

I've been thankful to healers and supports who have done that.

I think to avoid accidental threat wipes, they'd need to pay a bit more attention to what they are casting and on whom. I myself have made that mistake before in TA, wasn't pretty.

lezard21

At the moment of writing this post, we've wiped more than 8 times on Dino because someone kept using Palliate on mama tanks causing it to turn and kill baby tanks and healers.

It's not an accident. It's deliberate. Palliate is not being used till baby spawns ie. when it will most certainly guarantee a wipe.

Either Absolve has to be removed altogether, or make it not work on targets on the Tank role. Either do this or watch Cosmic hunting die.

edit: I just read the post above and it does raise some valid points. Alternatively, using Absolve Palliate on someone should post a message in his chatlog like "You have been Absolved by X" so at least we can know who is the one trolling so we can report him. Because going through the combat log during Cosmics is impossible.

spinnytop

I keep saying this. There's no reason you would ever need to threat drop a tank.

theravenforce said:

There are some "tanks" in tank role out there who really cannot tank, so threat wiping them and allowing real tanks to do their thing has been helpful in the past from what I've seen.

Eh... shouldn't the real tanks be ripping the aggro off the not-real tanks anyway? If they're so great, why do they need palliate to do it.

theravenforce

spinnytop said:

Eh... shouldn't the real tanks be ripping the aggro off the not-real tanks anyway? If they're so great, why do they need palliate to do it.

Mainly people who "spam" Crippling Challenge or use the vehicle threats constantly. It doesn't happen very often but when it does it is a relief to see things corrected.

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crappynamerules

The bottom line is, absolve is a great and useful tool for a savvy support player who is conscious of the team dynamic and sees the aggro situation slipping. Sadly, it is also the most amazing tool ever for someone to completely ruin a cosmic fight.

nacito

spinnytop said:

I keep saying this. There's no reason you would ever need to threat drop a tank.

yea, there is no reason ¬w¬

the laughs in that TA run were real tho

spinnytop

theravenforce said:

Mainly people who "spam" Crippling Challenge or use the vehicle threats constantly. It doesn't happen very often but when it does it is a relief to see things corrected.

Unfortunately Paliate doesn't solve that problem. Trust me, I've tried. Using Paliate on someone on every cooldown, but it doesn't matter how much threat they have because they're forcing the npc to target them with CC. Same with a vehicle, I've tried Paliating someone who was range-tanking Qwyjibo in a tank, and it just wouldn't solve that. I'm wondering if maybe the real solution here is to make cosmics immune to both Absolve AND Crippling Challenge.

naciiito said:

yea, there is no reason ¬w¬

the laughs in that TA run were real tho

<w<

morigosa

Oh, good call! Yes, Cosmics should be immune to Crippling Challenge, too.

pantagruel01

spinnytop said:

I keep saying this. There's no reason you would ever need to threat drop a tank.

I don't think this is completely true, but the loss in utility (for being unable to aggro wipe a tank) would be made up for by the ability to actually use palliate as a heal on tanks. It's not like a large burst heal is useless.

theravenforce said:

Mainly people who "spam" Crippling Challenge or use the vehicle threats constantly. It doesn't happen very often but when it does it is a relief to see things corrected.

Aggro wipes don't work against taunts anyway, they work against aggro.

championshewolf

What needs to be fixed is the hard taunt removed from Crippling Challenge and Palliate's Absolve being changed to only work on the user. Right now as it stands these two powers are unintentionally or intentionally being used to grief these events and giant monster hunts.​​

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aiqa

I think it would be interesting if when used on a tank, absolve transferred all the threat from the player that uses palliate to the tank.

championshewolf

gradii wrote: »

Why would it be neccessary to nerf crippling challenge when we can just make cosmics immune to it?

Because the taunt is unnecessary. Making cosmics immune doesn't solve the other problems of other boss fights where people just spam CC endlessly. Up its threat generation maybe, but the hard taunt should go. And it isn't even CC that lets me hold aggro.​​

pantagruel01

What the hard taunt on crippling challenge does is cause a secondary threat generator to steal aggro from the primary for 3s, after which it swaps back to the primary for 10s (if it's used by a primary tank, the hard taunt is completely irrelevant). This is occasionally useful (it reduces the primary's damage taken by up to 25%) but also has a pretty good chance of being disruptive or unhelpful.

championshewolf

pantagruel01 wrote: »

What the hard taunt on crippling challenge does is cause a secondary threat generator to steal aggro from the primary for 3s, after which it swaps back to the primary for 10s (if it's used by a primary tank, the hard taunt is completely irrelevant). This is occasionally useful (it reduces the primary's damage taken by up to 25%) but also has a pretty good chance of being disruptive or unhelpful.

The damage reduction is unrelated to the hard taunt, and the hard taunt was one of those bygone things added as a "solution" for tanks back in the early days.​​

pantagruel01

championshewolf said:

The damage reduction is unrelated to the hard taunt, and the hard taunt was one of those bygone things added as a "solution" for tanks back in the early days.​​

If a villain spends 3s attacking someone else and 10s attacking me, I take less damage. That's damage reduction.

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championshewolf

gradii wrote: »

And the hard taunt is extremely useful in TA for add pulling that odd add who gets away from the offtank.

You don't need a hard taunt for that, just do some damage. I only use or used infernal cyclone for that stuff. Had nothing to do with taunting.​​

raighn

championshewolf said:

gradii wrote: »

And the hard taunt is extremely useful in TA for add pulling that odd add who gets away from the offtank.

You don't need a hard taunt for that, just do some damage. I only use or used infernal cyclone for that stuff. Had nothing to do with taunting.​​

Nothing was said about it being "needed" just that it's "extreamly useful" which it is... Given the choice between 100% guaranteed that the mob WILL attack you and a higher chance that it will attack you most anyone would pick the guarantee. That is what the Hard Taunt provides, it provides that guarantee that they WILL attack you. And sometimes tthat guarantee is needed... If for example an addd gets caught on the edge of a strong AoE from a DPS there is suddenly far more threat from that DPS than you and just damaging the add won't pull aggro back to you, a hard taunt insures that you take the aggro back and furthar helps you to resecure that aggro.

It's also an invaluable tool for a defiance tank who relies heavily on the energy from defiance stacks... forcing enemies to attack them insures that they will get a steady flow of energy even in the rare occations where holding aggro may be near impossible for them. (Such as fighting another tank for aggro, fighting a PvPer for aggro, or just fighting an absurdly high DPS for aggro.)

Something not being "needed" does not make it any less useful or valuable.

spinnytop

championshewolf said:

What needs to be fixed is the hard taunt removed from Crippling Challenge and Palliate's Absolve being changed to only work on the user. Right now as it stands these two powers are unintentionally or intentionally being used to grief these events and giant monster hunts.​​

But I like my ability to force DPS to play smart o3o

I don't think the hard taunt should be wholesale removed from powers. As you know, I think that the taunt and the block-breaker should be separated into separate advantages. Fact is, not everyone is a dps monster tank like you, and they shouldn't have to be ( I know you consider this to be the "proper way" to build a tank, but it's only one of a few valid methods ). Tanks should feel free to build defensively and still be able to do their jobs, since there's nothing absurd about a tank that builds to be defensive. For these tanks, having a hard taunt is extremely useful. Hard taunts are also a staple of trinity mmos, and there's really no reason that CO should try to break the mold there. With the removal of hard taunts, you run the risk of making defensive-minded tanks obsolete as they can no longer hold aggro when any decently built dps is present, unless that dps just holds back at which point you've rendered their build obsolete. This would, quite frankly, be a disasterous thing to implement.

Instead, just split the two into two separate advantages so that the pvpers can have their block breaker and tanks can have their taunt.

I know it's tempting to want a situation where you can show off how you have better threat generation than anyone else without those pesky taunts getting in the way, but we have to make sure the game is still playable for all those tanks who don't build the way you do, right?

pantagruel01

gradii said:

pantagruel01 said:

championshewolf said:

The damage reduction is unrelated to the hard taunt, and the hard taunt was one of those bygone things added as a "solution" for tanks back in the early days.​​

If a villain spends 3s attacking someone else and 10s attacking me, I take less damage. That's damage reduction.

And the hard taunt is extremely useful in TA for add pulling that odd add who gets away from the offtank.

No, it's actually horrible at that. Delaying an add for 3s is not what you need; you want to either distract it permanently (apply threat) or just kill it.

avianos

Making Palliate's Absolve NOT working on players on TANK role would be my suggestion!
It's meant to be an Ally Support ability as well, Healers or players would like to use it on the Squishy DPS which got the agro

I'm sorry WHY would you want to make Cosmics Immune to Clipping Chellenge?
A Damage-Sponge with almost no offensive DPS skills cannot gain agro by damaging the boss​​

notyuu

Or they could change crippling challenge like so.
Effect duration lasts 10 seconds
When effect is active the users generates double threat for the duration [quadruple if they are in tank role]

that way it makes the trolls less....effective with it, without eliminating the support for those tanks that need it.

spinnytop

pantagruel01 said:

No, it's actually horrible at that. Delaying an add for 3s is not what you need; you want to either distract it permanently (apply threat) or just kill it.

I actually have to agree with Gradii here. Tagging an add with CC can actually be very useful with the adds because it guarantees that they'll be waddling towards me for a few seconds rather than anywhere else. Distracting it permanently is the ultimate goal, and the hard taunt is a tool that helps get you to that goal. Even in a situation where an add needs to be killed ( i.e. I'm not building enough threat on it anytime soon for whatever reason ) CC can be useful, because it lets that dps ( potentially a glass cannon ) more easily dump damage into that add while it faces me for a few seconds.

The hard taunt is a useful tool, to the degree that I have a power on my tank that is effectively only in my build as a CC applier. Chalk it up to me being used to having a hard taunt on every tank in any game I've ever played.

spinnytop

avianos said:

I'm sorry WHY would you want to make Cosmics Immune to Clipping Chellenge?
​​

To prevent trolls from spinning the dino around primarily. Also to prevent people who just don't know better from doing that same thing.

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raighn

bluegrassbeast said:

For once Spinny and I agree. I rarely take Crip C. for block-breaking. Knock Crip down to a 1-point advantage and a 2-pointer. Let the taunt and damage penalty be that, the block-breaker be a 2-pointer.

The only time I find the block break useful is when fighting certain bosses, such as Baron Cemetiere since it stops his voodoo doll... Beyond that I also only use it for the bonus threat and hard taunt...