holds on Super Villains and above-how?

cptmassive1

I've read that this is possible. However, I haven't been able to make it work.

Granted this is on a guy with heroic gear (no extra slot for the extra brooch). But he does have all of the presence specs bonuses to holds and a PR of ~300 and a brooch 8 utility. I would assume the PH regen dummies would be held if I were able to do so - they are listed as super villains. I can hold the other dummies for an exceedingly long time (like listed 40+ seconds or something) so I am guessing if my hold were powerful enough it would work.

I'm using twister just for the appearance so maybe that is it - haven't tried every hold power out there. I have Manipulation at R3 but then I have to attempt the hold 5x before I get max 8 stacks out of that, with no results.

So how do you get maximum hold strength and can it be done on SVs? Legendaries? Cosmics? And if so, is there a way to get Manipulation to ramp up faster?

The guy is primarily a healer but I was hoping to make him a dual role.

riverocean

I believe that Super villains can be held with sleep, plus manipulator and lots of Presence. Regular holds don't land on them as far I know.Cosmics and Legendaries cannot be held at all AFAIK. Holds for Super Villains and above are more useful as a way to land debuffs like "Wither" from the Sentinel Tree.

Here's a great article about holds from our resident Crowd Control expert Ravenforce:

http://www.championswiki.com/index.php?title=Crowd_Control

cptmassive1

Thanks for the great reply. The guide to the new giant monster attacks mentions mezzing kiga's dogs so I guess they are just teasing and it isnt worth trying for any real effect (assuming they are cosmics since I havent fought them yet). So really no point in having holds at 40th level unless it is for duels?

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squirrelloid

gradii said:

I once managed to hold Mega Terak on monster island for a couple seconds but I don't think this is intended. Normally holds work on supervillain and below, and normally only on supervillains if you stack 2 holds, or use ego storm.

It actually *requires* manipulator to hold a Supervillain. Any hold should work with manipulator, but it's not going to last very long, so lots of bonus hold duration (pre/specs) required to even notice. Nothing above SV should be holdable.

Kiga's dogs are supposed to be vulnerable to holds, but considering most holds disappear when another player so much as looks at them, this isn't particularly practical.

theravenforce

cptmassive1 said:

Thanks for the great reply. The guide to the new giant monster attacks mentions mezzing kiga's dogs so I guess they are just teasing and it isnt worth trying for any real effect (assuming they are cosmics since I havent fought them yet). So really no point in having holds at 40th level unless it is for duels?

Actually, Manipulator alone is the key to holding Supervillain rank foes.

It really does not matter how much PRE or INT you stack, just as long as you use Manipulator it will work. Specializations do help, but the effect they grant could be better in all instances, but still they help.

Think of it like trying to open a safe, having loads of strength won't help you if you already have the combination code to unlock it.

The "combination code" in this instance is Manipulator Form and "the safe" is accessing Supervillains for Crowd Control. Like most form powers (Enrage/Concentration/Compassion etc) achieving around...14%-15% is a good level to aim for and the same with Manipulator.

Once you've got your build and Manipulator, you can apply various different forms of Crowd Control reliably to a Supervillain rank foe.

Like so:

Sleep (Pre-Nerfs, it now requires you to compound a hold with sleep in order to get this effect. In these pictures I only applied Sleep once. Caused quite a stir for some on the forums.)





Stun (I tend to not use Stuns but they are the most reliable source of Crowd Control in game, because they are overpowered)



Incapacitate (This was designed to work with Manipulator)



As for their usefulness, personally my main is a crowd controller. But if you like teaming up, I suggest you pack stuns so that you don't feel less than useful.

I solo what I can in order to enjoy my play style.

Kiga's dogs are susceptible to Crowd Control effects as they are Master Villains. However as it has been pointed out, making them susceptible to Crowd Control in an open mission which requires a high amount of players is just asking for trouble as it is highly counter productive, considering the horrid state of Crowd Control in Champions Online, but that's for another thread I'm sure (link in my sig).

For duels, you'll want stuns mainly they are quick and dirty CC but get the job done. PvPers usually follow it up with a knock or a one shotting attack.

I would strongly suggest that you read the guide to Crowd Control that I wrote on the Champions Wiki, river linked it earlier on in this thread.

Manipulator Rank 3 is a waste of advantage points.


If you've got any more questions feel free to PM me in game or on forums. I am @RavenForce in game.

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pantagruel01

theravenforce said:

Kiga's dogs are susceptible to Crowd Control effects as they are Master Villains. However as it has been pointed out, making them susceptible to Crowd Control in an open mission which requires a high amount of players is just asking for trouble as it is highly counter productive, considering the horrid state of Crowd Control in Champions Online, but that's for another thread I'm sure (link in my sig).

Actually, crowd control can be useful on them even if all your allies are spazzes who shoot at held targets, but that's because you only need something like 2s of control to interrupt their buff stacking cycle.

theravenforce

pantagruel01 said:

Actually, crowd control can be useful on them even if all your allies are spazzes who shoot at held targets, but that's because you only need something like 2s of control to interrupt their buff stacking cycle.

Well that just means that anyone with a lunge w/ stun component can do it. You don't actually need a crowd controller.

theravenforce

gradii said:

Stacking 2 holds can achieve holds on supervillains without manipulator. and rank 3 manip is quite useful on builds which don't have a lot of other ways to stack it, especially post nerf.

You don't even need to compound holds. Just use an Incapacitate, without Manipulator it will still hold them, that's common knowledge (or it should be).

If a build using Manipulator doesn't have at least three different ways to stack the form, I would question what they are doing with it in the first place.

pantagruel01

theravenforce said:

Well that just means that anyone with a lunge w/ stun component can do it. You don't actually need a crowd controller.

You basically have two ways to go about dealing with the dogs: either try to perm-hold them, or just use enough cc that they stop stacking howl buffs and tank them normally. The first requires a real CC build and is quite vulnerable to people being stupid, the second just requires a well-timed stun that can be done by anyone (however, people are surprisingly bad at actually doing it).

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theravenforce

pantagruel01 said:

theravenforce said:

Well that just means that anyone with a lunge w/ stun component can do it. You don't actually need a crowd controller.

You basically have two ways to go about dealing with the dogs: either try to perm-hold them, or just use enough cc that they stop stacking howl buffs and tank them normally. The first requires a real CC build and is quite vulnerable to people being stupid, the second just requires a well-timed stun that can be done by anyone (however, people are surprisingly bad at actually doing it).

First way would be more feasible if people were able to listen and notice stuff, and since it's an open event...unless we have private instances...that's not going to happen often or work very well.

Second way would be easier if these dogs did not benefit from Hold Resistance stacks. OR if people timed stuff correctly. However without Hold Resistance stacks they would be alot easier to manage.

theravenforce

gradii said:

Even having 3 different holds isnt enough without some other supplementary way to stack manipulator, in non DoT telepathy builds.

I said: "At least 3 different ways" that doesn't imply 3 is the maximum.

Please read in future.

pantagruel01

theravenforce said:

Second way would be easier if these dogs did not benefit from Hold Resistance stacks.

It's not that hard even with -- a dog can reach ten stacks without it being a huge problem, so you have quite a few tries to get it right, and usually any problem dog doesn't have competition for the cc.

cptmassive1

OK, so if I stack Ego Choke (for maintain) with Ego Hold and Soul Mesmerism and some decent cooldown reduction, with manipulator do you think that would be enough?

theravenforce

cptmassive1 said:

OK, so if I stack Ego Choke (for maintain) with Ego Hold and Soul Mesmerism and some decent cooldown reduction, with manipulator do you think that would be enough?

All the holds you've listed have a base cool down of 10 seconds, so as long as you have targets to attack it should definitely be enough.

Although try your best not to compound holds on targets you actually want held. Since it just brings them closer to immunity (three strikes and you're out deal)

cptmassive1

Right - given that each takes a couple seconds to either charge or maintain and with a bit of cooldown maintenance I should only have a second or so between activations. I'd like to get this cycle down to two powers to free up a slot for an AO buff but I am still messing with the build.

riverocean

I'm having pretty good luck with Sonic Arrow + Manipulator on the Dogs. I can interrupt them. But yeah - some spazz usually comes along and decides to help by "pew-pew". Sort of like death by snoo-snoo just not as much fun!

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raighn

cptmassive1 said:

OK, so if I stack Ego Choke (for maintain) with Ego Hold and Soul Mesmerism and some decent cooldown reduction, with manipulator do you think that would be enough?

Ego choke will provide you with a quick way to build mqnipulator. if you full maintian it you should get about 3 or 4 quick stacks.

gradii said:

theravenforce said:

gradii said:

Even having 3 different holds isnt enough without some other supplementary way to stack manipulator, in non DoT telepathy builds.

I said: "At least 3 different ways" that doesn't imply 3 is the maximum.

Please read in future.

*Slow clap* way to nitpick.

Its worth noting that some powers can build and maintain manipulator without granting hold resist stacks. Such as tapping Cave In (or full charge against a non-staggered foe).

Even post nerf you can build and maintain manipulator efficently without over using holds. Maintained holds ant conditional holds are great ways to accomplish this goal. Since maintained holdz generate multiple stacks and conditional holds (if flagged properly, see the known power bugs thread`s list under manipulator for holds that don't work) generate stacks without holding.

cptmassive1

Thanks - after watching the icons on the regen dummies I can get stacks (as pointed out) of manipulator using ego choke rather quickly plus a hold most of the time, even for just a few seconds. That plus ego hold should be plenty for what I am trying to do. Yes they have a cooldown but there will be a max of ~4 seconds wait if I want to use them repeatedly. Since this alt is also a healer I am sure I will have some healing/self buffing/shielding to do during that time.

Thanks everyone