Controller Role

raighn

I know... I know... beating a dead horse bringing this up again... but you know what, it needs to happen... so I'm going to bring it up again...

Currently we have 2 DPS roles, a Hybrid role, a Tank role, and a Support role... most players lump Crowd Controllers into the support role, which technically they do belong to but the role itself is focused towards healing and it's role icon even implies that anyone in that role is a healer... So here's the suggestion... again...

Control
Characters in the Control role receive a large crowd control strength bonus, a small damage bonus, and a small threat generation reduction from super stats. The control role also grants:

+35% control power strength
+100% base equilibrium
+100% energy recovery
-50% energy decay
+15% healing
-10% threat
-10% max health
-10% damage


The main thing that would set the new role apart from Support is that instead of getting bonus healing from super stats a Controller would get CC strength from super stats... it would also have a different role icon, a chain link or lock perhaps, to properly distance it from the healer Support role. Additionally instead of +25% to both healing and CC strength the control role would have a larger innate bonus to CC strength and a smaller innate bonus to healing... the support role could be reworked to have mirrored innate bonuses as well.

theravenforce

Doesn't really need to be brought up again, the position on CC in CO, is pretty clear if history is anything to go by, as well as player responses. Any way I'll bite cause you know I had to when someone talks about my bruised child mechanic...

Champions Online would actually have to care about the dead mechanic that is Crowd Control...to warrant a role.

Otherwise it would be a hilarious waste of Development time.

Also if you wanted this role to be something that works effectively that boost to Crowd Control Strength would have to be around about 10 times bigger. Consider that 51% bonus CC str = 1.8 seconds worth of CC time.

So it wouldn't add much.

There would have to be a plethora of POSITIVE changes to the mechanic to even think about granting it a role.

--

That is of course not to say, this is a bad idea. This is a good idea...if Champions cared about the mechanic...or maybe on another game.

raighn

The innate bonus of 35% really doesn't need to be any higher honestly... the main CC strength bonus would be comming from super stats...

Anyways, at this point with CC I'm just looking for small victories... a CC role would be a nice small victory that hopefully wouldnt upset those who are opposed to CC... and perhaps it might even lead to your pleathora of positive changes to CC...

roughbearmattach

Considering that Ice Cage just got nerfed, looks like devs are going to continue to ruin crowd control.

rtma

Overhaul CC, Bring back Hold HP, Scale with PRE/Specs, allow marginal CC to legendary/Cosmic ranked Foes if you Dedicate to CC Role(Support) with Manipulator, Sound Good? \o.3.o/ WAI.

raighn

rtma said:

Overhaul CC, Bring back Hold HP, Scale with PRE/Specs, allow marginal CC to legendary/Cosmic ranked Foes if you Dedicate to CC Role(Support) with Manipulator, Sound Good? \o.3.o/ WAI.

We can only dream...

riverocean

The game has pretty much gone down the "Action RP" game route. Which means there's no time for CC. Most mobs that can be CC'd aren't worth it. It's much easier to just DPS them. Well pretty much DPS is the solution to just about everything in CO. Just toss enough DPS at a given target and watch it melt. Fights don't last very long and aren't really supposed to.

And I crowd control. Dominators and Controllers were my favorites in the old City of game -- but no game really has CC on that level. It's an unpopular mechanic in MMO's. PvP'rs hate it... game developers hate it. The one thing you can count on in any MMO is that CC will get nerfed if it's useful at all.

All that said... I really like the OP's ideas. I just have zero hope anything like that will be implemented.

championshewolf

Crowd Control isn't a dead mechanic its nothing was fixed with on Alert to warrant using it. None of the bosses were designed with interrupt in mind otherwise they just become even more trivial than they are now. New, future bosses can look at this but for now it's just not a thing.​​

theravenforce

championshewolf said:

Crowd Control isn't a dead mechanic its nothing was fixed with on Alert to warrant using it. None of the bosses were designed with interrupt in mind otherwise they just become even more trivial than they are now. New, future bosses can look at this but for now it's just not a thing.​​

It's a dead mechanic because technically nothing warrants it and zero (or next to zero) work has been put into making it viable and as worth investing in as other mechanics.

If it retained variable hold HP and everything it needed to be a viable mechanic in CO, and this came with a global (or one at a time) update of all NPC mobs then it would be where it should be. But that isn't the case.

That's why I call it dead.

--

As for interrupts...I can't disagree there. The alternative would have required way too much work to invest and to create for such a dead mechanic.

theravenforce

raighn said:

The innate bonus of 35% really doesn't need to be any higher honestly... the main CC strength bonus would be comming from super stats...

Anyways, at this point with CC I'm just looking for small victories... a CC role would be a nice small victory that hopefully wouldnt upset those who are opposed to CC... and perhaps it might even lead to your pleathora of positive changes to CC...

It depends. Knowing CO, it's likely that the bonuses from Super Stats would be set incredibly low .

I think the mass that are opposed to CC would view it as a waste of development time, on the other hand you could see it as a victory.

Either way, personally I'd like to see changes which follow through and lead up to something. In my eyes that would be the fake patch notes I posted on my CC Discussion thread and once all that is said and done the final result is a new role "Dominator/Crowd Controller Role".

That would make more sense than creating a role which is practically useless with the current CC system.

pantagruel01

In general I think this game has too many roles and could use fewer. Controllers don't need a controller role, they need viable control mechanics.

darqaura2

championshewolf said:

Crowd Control isn't a dead mechanic its nothing was fixed with on Alert to warrant using it. None of the bosses were designed with interrupt in mind otherwise they just become even more trivial than they are now. New, future bosses can look at this but for now it's just not a thing.​​

No crowd control pretty much is a dead mechanic.

And as to the suggestion the devs would have to care about crowd control to actually you know . . . work.

If you're looking for crowd control to be viable, play another game.

DPS is pretty much the main point of this game.

xcelsior41

darqaura2 said:

championshewolf said:

Crowd Control isn't a dead mechanic its nothing was fixed with on Alert to warrant using it. None of the bosses were designed with interrupt in mind otherwise they just become even more trivial than they are now. New, future bosses can look at this but for now it's just not a thing.​​

No crowd control pretty much is a dead mechanic.

And as to the suggestion the devs would have to care about crowd control to actually you know . . . work.

If you're looking for crowd control to be viable, play another game.

DPS is pretty much the main point of this game.

^
This. If you don't think it's broken then play it in team content where everyone else' style of play can flourish, but CC can't.

pantagruel01

xcelsior41 said:

This. If you don't think it's broken then play it in team content where everyone else' style of play can flourish, but CC can't.

Out of curiosity, what is the style of play that you think CC should have? I actually make use of CC on some builds, it has its uses (even in team content), but generally as an adjunct to something else rather than a primary build focus.

A significant chunk of the problem is that CC is fundamentally a defensive tactic, and much of the game doesn't need defense (this is also a problem with tank and healer builds being valued).

squirrelloid

pantagruel01 said:

xcelsior41 said:

This. If you don't think it's broken then play it in team content where everyone else' style of play can flourish, but CC can't.

Out of curiosity, what is the style of play that you think CC should have? I actually make use of CC on some builds, it has its uses (even in team content), but generally as an adjunct to something else rather than a primary build focus.

A significant chunk of the problem is that CC is fundamentally a defensive tactic, and much of the game doesn't need defense (this is also a problem with tank and healer builds being valued).

CC is a 'tank' job. A controller should be able to stand in for a tank on all content. It should work on everything, just like threat works on everything. (Threat could also be improved, but there's no denying it works on everything). There is literally no difference between 'boss can't act for 3s' and 'boss is attacking tank for 3s', so the whole 'bosses weren't designed with CC in mind' is total bull, because they were designed with bosses wasting time attacking tanks in mind. (Bring back hold hp - they're a stand-in for tank hp/defenses, and bosses using time breaking through hold hp is identical to bosses attacking tanks).

Yes, that means a good controller should be able to control a boss for ~90% of a fight. And that would literally be no different than trinity gameplay in actual effect.

But for some reason developers think bosses wasting time attacking tanks in a damage/defense comparison is engaging gameplay (note: it's not), but a controller carefully meting out control abilities to direct boss damage into hold hp is not, even though the controller gameplay would actually be vastly more interesting because of managing hold-resistance stacks.

(And yes, the only place control matters in this game is the place it can't be used: boss fights).

As far as pvp goes: stop worrying about pvp. Let pvpers deal with whatever is good for the pve game. There's plenty of player counters to holds, and pvpers whining about not be able to learn how to use them is just that: whining, and should be accorded no respect or mechanics modifications. Tantrum-throwing should not be rewarded.

pantagruel01

squirrelloid said:

CC is a 'tank' job. A controller should be able to stand in for a tank on all content. It should work on everything, just like threat works on everything. There is literally no difference between 'boss can't act for 3s' and 'boss is attacking tank for 3s'

Except, well, the tank actually takes damage when that happens. CC is a "the team takes less damage" role. Tanking is also a "the team takes less damage" role.

squirrelloid said:

Yes, that means a good controller should be able to control a boss for ~90% of a fight. And that would literally be no different than trinity gameplay in actual effect.

Realistic reduction of damage output for tanking bosses is generally in the 50-80% range depending on the boss -- the tank does take some damage, and most bosses have AoEs, including some that aren't really affected by tanking. While simple 'tank and spank' gameplay is not all that engaging, controller gameplay that means the rest of the team has nothing to do other than applying damage is worse, and too many boss shticks would be broken by allowing much true CC on them.

My bigger problem with CC is that it doesn't work for controlling crowds -- i.e. "keep mobs B, C, and D out of our hair while we beat up A".

squirrelloid

pantagruel01 said:

Except, well, the tank actually takes damage when that happens. CC is a "the team takes less damage" role. Tanking is also a "the team takes less damage" role.

Yes, and the hold takes damage when the boss applies damage to the hold.

Tanks are built to take damage. Controllers are built to apply holds which absorb damage. It's the same thing done two different ways. And the tank can be healed, while the hold cannot be. Holds are inherently more limited because of hold resistance stacks.

I would not be opposed to bosses being designed to be able to use some powers they could use while held, generally the same kinds of powers which are AoE/untargeted (with a delay between uses so the control is still effective, and at the expense of applying breakfree damage while they're using it). (There's no reason holding Frostie or Kenina should stop living fire/ice from spawning, for example). But I don't think it's necessary either.

Just giving every boss an AO which applies a lot of breakfree damage and a minor damage boost for a short time thereafter would be enough to keep controllers on their toes and create risk. (It would have to be a smaller damage boost than player AOs, because bosses are mostly base damage, probably ballpark 5-10%). And that should be relatively trivial to create one boss AO and apply it to all of them.

xcelsior41

pantagruel01 said:

xcelsior41 said:

This. If you don't think it's broken then play it in team content where everyone else' style of play can flourish, but CC can't.

Out of curiosity, what is the style of play that you think CC should have? I actually make use of CC on some builds, it has its uses (even in team content), but generally as an adjunct to something else rather than a primary build focus.

A significant chunk of the problem is that CC is fundamentally a defensive tactic, and much of the game doesn't need defense (this is also a problem with tank and healer builds being valued).

To help provide some in-combat support, ideally. I'm not asking for perma lock, just an actually effect. Yknow how sometimes you get into those group where they just murder everything before you even get moving?. Thats what CC is now, people murdering before you get to shine. I want it to be a little more useful in combat than what it is currently.

pantagruel01

xcelsior41 said:

To help provide some in-combat support, ideally. I'm not asking for perma lock, just an actually effect. Yknow how sometimes you get into those group where they just murder everything before you even get moving?. Thats what CC is now, people murdering before you get to shine. I want it to be a little more useful in combat than what it is currently.

In the end, if they can murder everything before you can land a CC, clearly the CC wasn't needed, so it's kind of impossible for CC to shine no matter how it gets buffed. Foes worth the trouble of CCing are a minimum requirement for useful CC.

theravenforce

There seems to be a few very strange ideas surrounding CC's intent and desired use floating around this thread now, so before I have a chance to really take apart these arguments (which I've spoken to death about on these forums) I'm going to step out.

xcelsior41

theravenforce said:

There seems to be a few very strange ideas surrounding CC's intent and desired use floating around this thread now, so before I have a chance to really take apart these arguments (which I've spoken to death about on these forums) I'm going to step out.

Yeaaah, I agree um..this isn't going anywhere practically, same people who don't really do CC are talking about it like they know CC..etc etc, something about PvP/trying to tie it into PvE :rolleyes: etc..etc

pantagruel01

xcelsior41 said:

Yeaaah, I agree um..this isn't going anywhere practically, same people who don't really do CC are talking about it like they know CC..etc etc, something about PvP/trying to tie it into PvE :rolleyes: etc..etc

Urr... there seems to have been exactly one mention of PvP in this thread and it was largely content-less. What I was after was trying to get a sense of what would count as a 'satisfying' CC experience. It's possible that there are no options that people who like CC would consider satisfying that aren't game breaking, but it's also possible that there are. I'm reasonably sure that it would at least be possible to improve the crowd control experience without breaking things, even if it would fall short of 'satisfying'.

raighn

The main thing that would make a satisfying CC experience would simply be for CC effects to actually last longer than half a second...

Stuns are supposed to be short and brief (3s max should be the hard limit)
Paralize, Incapacitate, and Hold are meant to be long term with varying levels of strength...
Sleep is supposed to be a "remove from combat" type hold that breaks from the slightest breeze...

So fixing holds to actually do what they were intended to do in the first place would be what would make a satisfying CC experiance... it's fine if holds break from damage... it's not fine if all holds break from damage almost as soon as they get applied (as it is now)...

darqaura2

pantagruel01 said:

xcelsior41 said:

To help provide some in-combat support, ideally. I'm not asking for perma lock, just an actually effect. Yknow how sometimes you get into those group where they just murder everything before you even get moving?. Thats what CC is now, people murdering before you get to shine. I want it to be a little more useful in combat than what it is currently.

In the end, if they can murder everything before you can land a CC, clearly the CC wasn't needed, so it's kind of impossible for CC to shine no matter how it gets buffed. Foes worth the trouble of CCing are a minimum requirement for useful CC.

Sooooooo in other words play a game where control actually matters.

darqaura2

raighn said:

The main thing that would make a satisfying CC experience would simply be for CC effects to actually last longer than half a second...

Stuns are supposed to be short and brief (3s max should be the hard limit)
Paralize, Incapacitate, and Hold are meant to be long term with varying levels of strength...
Sleep is supposed to be a "remove from combat" type hold that breaks from the slightest breeze...

So fixing holds to actually do what they were intended to do in the first place would be what would make a satisfying CC experiance... it's fine if holds break from damage... it's not fine if all holds break from damage almost as soon as they get applied (as it is now)...

I'm surprised you had to explain this. But the fact that you do shows where we are.

As I said if you want to play a game with a viable controller role, play anything else other than CO.

And that's not a knock on CO, its just that this game choose to go the route of focusing on dps.

pantagruel01

darqaura2 said:

And that's not a knock on CO, its just that this game choose to go the route of focusing on dps.

Not convinced it was a choice; the game just sort of slid into dps being grossly overpowered.

raighn

darqaura2 said:

raighn said:

The main thing that would make a satisfying CC experience would simply be for CC effects to actually last longer than half a second...

Stuns are supposed to be short and brief (3s max should be the hard limit)
Paralize, Incapacitate, and Hold are meant to be long term with varying levels of strength...
Sleep is supposed to be a "remove from combat" type hold that breaks from the slightest breeze...

So fixing holds to actually do what they were intended to do in the first place would be what would make a satisfying CC experiance... it's fine if holds break from damage... it's not fine if all holds break from damage almost as soon as they get applied (as it is now)...

I'm surprised you had to explain this. But the fact that you do shows where we are.

As I said if you want to play a game with a viable controller role, play anything else other than CO.

And that's not a knock on CO, its just that this game choose to go the route of focusing on dps.

I play multiple MMOs... and CO is the only superhero themed MMO enjoy... So no I will not "just play anthing else"... I will continue to play CO and I will continue to press the issue of the sorry state of CC... It needs to be brought up to par, the broken mechanics need to be repaired, and nothing is going to ever happen if the issue is simply ignored. Nothing ever gets done by sitting idle and waiting.

darqaura2

pantagruel01 said:

darqaura2 said:

And that's not a knock on CO, its just that this game choose to go the route of focusing on dps.

Not convinced it was a choice; the game just sort of slid into dps being grossly overpowered.

The changes done to CC were a choice. It's possible to make CC viable. Other games have done it and do do it. Including some superhero-themed games.

darqaura2

raighn said:

darqaura2 said:

raighn said:

The main thing that would make a satisfying CC experience would simply be for CC effects to actually last longer than half a second...

Stuns are supposed to be short and brief (3s max should be the hard limit)
Paralize, Incapacitate, and Hold are meant to be long term with varying levels of strength...
Sleep is supposed to be a "remove from combat" type hold that breaks from the slightest breeze...

So fixing holds to actually do what they were intended to do in the first place would be what would make a satisfying CC experiance... it's fine if holds break from damage... it's not fine if all holds break from damage almost as soon as they get applied (as it is now)...

I'm surprised you had to explain this. But the fact that you do shows where we are.

As I said if you want to play a game with a viable controller role, play anything else other than CO.

And that's not a knock on CO, its just that this game choose to go the route of focusing on dps.

I play multiple MMOs... and CO is the only superhero themed MMO enjoy... So no I will not "just play anthing else"... I will continue to play CO and I will continue to press the issue of the sorry state of CC... It needs to be brought up to par, the broken mechanics need to be repaired, and nothing is going to ever happen if the issue is simply ignored. Nothing ever gets done by sitting idle and waiting.

I honestly don't think the devs care about CC. I wish you luck though.