I'd love to see the KI bonus scale with the knock strength of the power...
Now, the bonus not scaling with str/ego only works IFF the KI bonus damage benefits from str/ego bonus damage... the reason for this is because your knock strength from str/ego translates into more falling damae by causing the target to be propelled higher into the air... Personally I think it'd be more balanced to NOT let bonus damage affect the KI bonus and instead calculate str/ego knock strength into the KI bonus.
How I personally see it working is as follows.
KI bonus is applied as an extra hit of damage. The extra damage is delivered as penetrating damage (since falling damage ignores resistance). KI bonus is calculated using base knock strength & bonus knock strength. Bonus damage does NOT affect KI bonus.
My only worry is that this is propelling us into another OP power situation. Penetrating damage is strong stuff. We're not attempting to completely integrate falling damage into KI attacks - we're trying to compensate, but in a balanced way. Sure, falling damage isn't affected by resistance... but we're not applying falling damage... we're punching Grond in the shins.
My only worry is that this is propelling us into another OP power situation. Penetrating damage is strong stuff.
Not really in this case. The vast majority of knock immune targets also have low (20%) damage resistance.
so 20% resistance penetration on top of bonus damage... that has me worried. We just recently split one power into two based on half that amount of penetration alone.
Having it as penetrating damage means that the end calculation can result in a much lower final number. It's actually more balanced than you think.
without the resistance penetration the final number would be calculated to a higher result to offset the resistance ignoring nature of falling damage. But with resistance penetration they can ignore average resistance entirely in the calculation and just give us a raw value.
This is important when you take into account the various ways we already have available to reduce resistance. By using penetrating damage they can keep our final actual damage results all around the same final value, but without penetrating damage then builds that are designed to negate resistances already can easily push much higher values due to a higher base damage on the bonus.
Tying the knock damage bonus to knock strength would just result in powers with a high knock strength to have a lower base damage. And that assumes a high knock strenth is actually a big advantage against targets that are not immune to knocks. For melee that is not really the case, sure you get the added fall damage which could be an advantage if it kills your target (which can happen for NPCs), but more often than not your target survives and you will have to chase them across the room. If there is any knock that is an advantage it's a weak knock that just interrupts your target and lets you attack them again right away.
Tying the knock damage bonus to knock strength would just result in powers with a high knock strength to have a lower base damage. And that assumes a high knock strenth is actually a big advantage against targets that are not immune to knocks. For melee that is not really the case, sure you get the added fall damage which could be an advantage if it kills your target (which can happen for NPCs), but more often than not your target survives and you will have to chase them across the room. If there is any knock that is an advantage it's a weak knock that just interrupts your target and lets you attack them again right away.
Let's not forget that a target flying through the air is a target that's also dealing 0 damage to anyone. Knocks are actually a bigger advantage than the falling damage they deal - even to melee. It's not like those targets land and then just hang around, they run back to you as well, for the most part right back into lunge range. NPCs have this obsession with 50' range for some reason...
If anything, with just a damage bonus folks are still being undersold on being compensated for loss of the knock portion of their attack. We're not even talking about compensating them for the "watch as a mob flies helpless through the air, not doing anything to anyone, as you laugh at it for great enjoyment" part of the knock. Also, we're not talking about the "You positioned yourself well and knocked a mob off a roof for even more glorious fall damage!" part.
I still remember that Savage I faced my first time in BASH on my Behemoth... I mean, I don't remember his name, but I remember knocking him off the top of a building into that parking area quite the altitude below and watching his health drop to virtually nothing when he hit the pavement. We're not even talking about compensating people for that potential damage!
Given all this, I don't feel like the base damage would have to be lowered any further.
The base damage for powers with knocks have already been lowered to account for the knock damage... fixing the KI bonuses to be a dynamic variable value based on knock strength rather than an arbitrary flat rate percentage would bring the underwhelming knocks into line against KI targets and allow for better balancing of any overpowered knocks. In fact this could very likely result in an increase in base damage to various knock powers.
And as Spinny already mentioned, we're not talking about situations where your knocks may send a target flying off a building for even more fall damage. Balance would & SHOULD be based on knocking opponents around a flat plane and take no account of extra distances.
Tying the knock damage bonus to knock strength would just result in powers with a high knock strength to have a lower base damage. And that assumes a high knock strenth is actually a big advantage against targets that are not immune to knocks. For melee that is not really the case, sure you get the added fall damage which could be an advantage if it kills your target (which can happen for NPCs), but more often than not your target survives and you will have to chase them across the room. If there is any knock that is an advantage it's a weak knock that just interrupts your target and lets you attack them again right away.
Let's not forget that a target flying through the air is a target that's also dealing 0 damage to anyone. Knocks are actually a bigger advantage than the falling damage they deal - even to melee. It's not like those targets land and then just hang around, they run back to you as well, for the most part right back into lunge range. NPCs have this obsession with 50' range for some reason...
If anything, with just a damage bonus folks are still being undersold on being compensated for loss of the knock portion of their attack. We're not even talking about compensating them for the "watch as a mob flies helpless through the air, not doing anything to anyone, as you laugh at it for great enjoyment" part of the knock. Also, we're not talking about the "You positioned yourself well and knocked a mob off a roof for even more glorious fall damage!" part.
I still remember that Savage I faced my first time in BASH on my Behemoth... I mean, I don't remember his name, but I remember knocking him off the top of a building into that parking area quite the altitude below and watching his health drop to virtually nothing when he hit the pavement. We're not even talking about compensating people for that potential damage!
Given all this, I don't feel like the base damage would have to be lowered any further.
Target being knocked down do not deal any damage either. And while those get back up faster then one being knocked back 100 feet, they are also still in melee range so can be knock down 2 more times without having to chase them, nor will they be knocked out of AoE range of your teammates.
I don't really think you have to comensate for anything appart from lower base damage. You just have to balance powers with a knock to work well against KI targets, where it needs to do more or less equal damage to powers without a knock. And you have to make make sure a power with a knock works well for targets without KI, taking into acount how much an advantage the knock is, and how much lower base damage would be justified.
In my opinion it would be much more reasonable to have range powers with a knock get a higher damage bonus to KI targets then melee powers. Ranged power have far less troubles following up on a knock which means the falling damage can be used better, so its more reasonable to have ranged powers with a knock have a significantly lower base damage against targets without knock imunity. Melee powers with a knock on the other hand should still do good base damage even on targets that can be knocked to compensate for the bigger troubles melee has to follow up on those knocks.
Target being knocked down do not deal any damage either. And while those get back up faster then one being knocked back 100 feet, they are also still in melee range so can be knock down 2 more times without having to chase them, nor will they be knocked out of AoE range of your teammates.
I don't really think you have to comensate for anything appart from lower base damage. You just have to balance powers with a knock to work well against KI targets, where it needs to do more or less equal damage to powers without a knock. And you have to make make sure a power with a knock works well for targets without KI, taking into account how much an advantage the knock is, and how much lower base damage would be justified.
In my opinion it would be much more reasonable to have range powers with a knock get a higher damage bonus to KI targets then melee powers. Ranged power have far less troubles following up on a knock which means the falling damage can be used better, so its more reasonable to have ranged powers with a knock have a significantly lower base damage against targets without knock imunity. Melee powers with a knock on the other hand should still do good base damage even on targets that can be knocked to compensate for the bigger troubles melee has to follow up on those knocks.
Keep in mind that someone having a melee knock does not prevent them from having ranged attacks, so you're risking that a player would be compensated for something that they didn't lose. What happens after the knock can be a lot of things; the player might spend the duration of the knock healing, do we compensate them for potential healing lost? they might immediately use a Knock To to bring the target right back to them ( I call it yo-yoing), do we revoke the bonus damage in this case and heal the npc back up? what about someone with so much knock bonus that their ranged knock will actually send a target out of the range of the ranged knock? do we add a specific point at which knock bonus layers another damage bonus on top of what we're already giving? - the only thing that is certain is that against a knock immune target, the player loses X damage, and that in many cases X gets bigger the longer the power was charged, everything after is up to the player and their build.
It's also a bit odd that we're discussing nerfing the base damage of powers now, considering the thread is about how we compensate them for damage lost... why would part of the solution be making them lose even more damage?
Target being knocked down do not deal any damage either. And while those get back up faster then one being knocked back 100 feet, they are also still in melee range so can be knock down 2 more times without having to chase them, nor will they be knocked out of AoE range of your teammates.
I don't really think you have to comensate for anything appart from lower base damage. You just have to balance powers with a knock to work well against KI targets, where it needs to do more or less equal damage to powers without a knock. And you have to make make sure a power with a knock works well for targets without KI, taking into account how much an advantage the knock is, and how much lower base damage would be justified.
In my opinion it would be much more reasonable to have range powers with a knock get a higher damage bonus to KI targets then melee powers. Ranged power have far less troubles following up on a knock which means the falling damage can be used better, so its more reasonable to have ranged powers with a knock have a significantly lower base damage against targets without knock imunity. Melee powers with a knock on the other hand should still do good base damage even on targets that can be knocked to compensate for the bigger troubles melee has to follow up on those knocks.
Keep in mind that someone having a melee knock does not prevent them from having ranged attacks, so you're risking that a player would be compensated for something that they didn't lose. What happens after the knock can be a lot of things; the player might spend the duration of the knock healing, do we compensate them for potential healing lost? they might immediately use a Knock To to bring the target right back to them ( I call it yo-yoing), do we revoke the bonus damage in this case and heal the npc back up? what about someone with so much knock bonus that their ranged knock will actually send a target out of the range of the ranged knock? do we add a specific point at which knock bonus layers another damage bonus on top of what we're already giving? - the only thing that is certain is that against a knock immune target, the player loses X damage, and that in many cases X gets bigger the longer the power was charged, everything after is up to the player and their build.
It's also a bit odd that we're discussing nerfing the base damage of powers now, considering the thread is about how we compensate them for damage lost... why would part of the solution be making them lose even more damage?
I already said in my opinion nothing should be compensated appart from the lower base damage.
What power exactly needs more KI damage bonus, scaling to knock strength, than it already has? At least Haymaker, and on PTS Annihilate, already perform well against KI targets. And Haymaker already has a huge knock bonus, so doesn't need a bigger one in my opinion. If Annihilate gets a significantly bigger bonus to KI targets, it would be doing to much damage to those compared to other melee attacks so would need its base damage lowered. Uppercut is the only single target melee power I can think of that has a strong knock that is not doing top tier damage against knock immune targets. But Uppercut already has a 60% bonus to knock immune targets so even if it needs some buff it should not make that bonus even bigger.
Yassss! KI bonus based on knock distance. My 850 strength ~670' knock distance with haymaker toon demands it.
But seriously, whatever is done, no nerfing base damage.
Also, damage from falling is vastly overrated. At large knock distances, you're more likely to knock them into a wall or something, and then they take *no* falling damage. (Why there's no impact damage from being slammed into a wall at high velocity that's equivalent to the damage they would have taken from falling, i have no idea). Now, admittedly, outside my above toon knocks villains *over* buildings when the buildings are small enough. But inside there's never that much space. I'd rather see base damage increased and KI damage reduced, because it'll result in a more general performance increase in most situations.
Well it's fairly simple, either you get lower base damage and a bigger bonus to knock immunes. Or you get a higher base damage and a smaller bonus to knock immunes. How exactly you want to balance that depends on how much of an advantage knocks are in your opinion. If you think knocks are very good for some power you can give it a lower base damage and a higher bonus to knock immune targets, if you think knocks are not that big an advantage you can give the power a higher base damage and a lower bonus to knock immune targets.
In my opinion melee powers with a knock should not have a much lower base damage than melee powers without a knock, so I want the damage bonus to knock immune targets to be fairly low for melee powers.
Well it's fairly simple, either you get lower base damage and a bigger bonus to knock immunes. Or you get a higher base damage and a smaller bonus to knock immunes. How exactly you want to balance that depends on how much of an advantage knocks are in your opinion. If you think knocks are very good for some power you can give it a lower base damage and a higher bonus to knock immune targets, if you think knocks are not that big an advantage you can give the power a higher base damage and a lower bonus to knock immune targets.
In my opinion melee powers with a knock should not have a much lower base damage than melee powers without a knock, so I want the damage bonus to knock immune targets to be fairly low for melee powers.
Well, since I'm not talking about increasing the KI damage bonus and instead am in fact talking about having it scale with charge time in cases where knock distance increases with charge time, the question of whether it should be balanced in favor of base or KI damage bonus doesn't really matter to me. I do know that I'm not in favor of reducing base damage for no good reason, and my suggestion wouldn't require that to happen.
My personal opinion: bonus damage against knock-immune targets shouldn't be a thing. Especially for melee attacks, having high knock strength (ala Haymaker or Annihiliate) is a disadvantage, since it sends the enemy away - typically outside your lunge range.
So I already benefit from knock immunity on my target, just to cut down on the frustration of having to chase it all over the map; gaining extra damage as well doesn't seem to me to be necessary or appropriate.
My personal opinion: bonus damage against knock-immune targets shouldn't be a thing. Especially for melee attacks, having high knock strength (ala Haymaker or Annihiliate) is a disadvantage, since it sends the enemy away - typically outside your lunge range.
So I already benefit from knock immunity on my target, just to cut down on the frustration of having to chase it all over the map; gaining extra damage as well doesn't seem to me to be necessary or appropriate.
The issue is that the base damage of that power is balanced with the added fall damage in mind, meaning that when the target goes KI if there is no added KI damage, that means that you're effectively using a weak power. Keep in mind that what you're seeing from these powers in game right now is the buffed version - take that bonus damage away on live, and you might start to see why they added it to begin with. Many of us remember how these powers performed before these bonuses were added.
The issue is that the base damage of that power is balanced with the added fall damage in mind, meaning that when the target goes KI if there is no added KI damage, that means that you're effectively using a weak power.
The obvious correct value is "the damage a power with the speed, range, cost, etc, of this power would have done if it didn't incorporate a knock effect".
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
without the resistance penetration the final number would be calculated to a higher result to offset the resistance ignoring nature of falling damage. But with resistance penetration they can ignore average resistance entirely in the calculation and just give us a raw value.
This is important when you take into account the various ways we already have available to reduce resistance. By using penetrating damage they can keep our final actual damage results all around the same final value, but without penetrating damage then builds that are designed to negate resistances already can easily push much higher values due to a higher base damage on the bonus.
If anything, with just a damage bonus folks are still being undersold on being compensated for loss of the knock portion of their attack. We're not even talking about compensating them for the "watch as a mob flies helpless through the air, not doing anything to anyone, as you laugh at it for great enjoyment" part of the knock. Also, we're not talking about the "You positioned yourself well and knocked a mob off a roof for even more glorious fall damage!" part.
I still remember that Savage I faced my first time in BASH on my Behemoth... I mean, I don't remember his name, but I remember knocking him off the top of a building into that parking area quite the altitude below and watching his health drop to virtually nothing when he hit the pavement. We're not even talking about compensating people for that potential damage!
Given all this, I don't feel like the base damage would have to be lowered any further.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And as Spinny already mentioned, we're not talking about situations where your knocks may send a target flying off a building for even more fall damage. Balance would & SHOULD be based on knocking opponents around a flat plane and take no account of extra distances.
I don't really think you have to comensate for anything appart from lower base damage. You just have to balance powers with a knock to work well against KI targets, where it needs to do more or less equal damage to powers without a knock. And you have to make make sure a power with a knock works well for targets without KI, taking into acount how much an advantage the knock is, and how much lower base damage would be justified.
In my opinion it would be much more reasonable to have range powers with a knock get a higher damage bonus to KI targets then melee powers. Ranged power have far less troubles following up on a knock which means the falling damage can be used better, so its more reasonable to have ranged powers with a knock have a significantly lower base damage against targets without knock imunity. Melee powers with a knock on the other hand should still do good base damage even on targets that can be knocked to compensate for the bigger troubles melee has to follow up on those knocks.
It's also a bit odd that we're discussing nerfing the base damage of powers now, considering the thread is about how we compensate them for damage lost... why would part of the solution be making them lose even more damage?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
What power exactly needs more KI damage bonus, scaling to knock strength, than it already has? At least Haymaker, and on PTS Annihilate, already perform well against KI targets. And Haymaker already has a huge knock bonus, so doesn't need a bigger one in my opinion. If Annihilate gets a significantly bigger bonus to KI targets, it would be doing to much damage to those compared to other melee attacks so would need its base damage lowered. Uppercut is the only single target melee power I can think of that has a strong knock that is not doing top tier damage against knock immune targets. But Uppercut already has a 60% bonus to knock immune targets so even if it needs some buff it should not make that bonus even bigger.
But seriously, whatever is done, no nerfing base damage.
Also, damage from falling is vastly overrated. At large knock distances, you're more likely to knock them into a wall or something, and then they take *no* falling damage. (Why there's no impact damage from being slammed into a wall at high velocity that's equivalent to the damage they would have taken from falling, i have no idea). Now, admittedly, outside my above toon knocks villains *over* buildings when the buildings are small enough. But inside there's never that much space. I'd rather see base damage increased and KI damage reduced, because it'll result in a more general performance increase in most situations.
In my opinion melee powers with a knock should not have a much lower base damage than melee powers without a knock, so I want the damage bonus to knock immune targets to be fairly low for melee powers.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
So I already benefit from knock immunity on my target, just to cut down on the frustration of having to chase it all over the map; gaining extra damage as well doesn't seem to me to be necessary or appropriate.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained