More proc mechanics for Manipulator, to support dedicated hold powers.

ogremindes

With the recent change to Manipulator, the majority of dedicated Crowd Control powers cannot effectively maintain stacks of that form. These powers all have cooldowns, long durations (on a dedicated control build their duration can easily exceed 20 seconds on many enemies), have to contend with Resistance Stacks (after 2 shots there's immunity, stopping you from using these powers more frequently), and many also require a full charge to activate.

The upshot of this is that if Manipulator is supposed to "reward" the use of Crowd Control powers, it is failing at its purpose. To remedy this, I suggest making Manipulator proc every couple of seconds while an enemy is under the effect of your holds. This wouldn't need to extend to Stuns, as they can be spammed effectively, but to the other hold types: Paralyze, Incapacitate, Sleep, probably other long-duration control effects that I'm not thinking of.

Or, if that's too hard, tripling the duration of Manip would also work. I presume that's why it was set that way to begin with.

chaelk

Please, there are so many things that could set it off.
hold, root are both controls​​

avianos

Meanwhile, they still hasn't fixed the Issue of the powers which don't Trigger Manipulator and SHOULD
http://forum.arcgames.com/championsonline/discussion/246505/manipulator-the-picky-form
http://forum.arcgames.com/championsonline/discussion/250260/manipulator-the-picky-form-part-ii-the-sequel

but again, it is Crowd Control and we are in Champions Online​​

dakrushmor

avianos said:

Meanwhile, they still hasn't fixed the Issue of the powers which don't Trigger Manipulator and SHOULD

Yeah, that issue is common for powers, those seem to have their condition of activating setted up "manually". I.e. as opposed to automatic trigger of things like Locus, things like Overdrive have link to its procedure written to all maintains, but they seem to forgot add it to several powers, like Conflagration. Fiery Form adds its damage bonus to powers automatically, that's why it buffs Strafing Run, but Targeting Computer requires its condition setted up manually, and doesn't buff Strafing Run, although logically it should be opposite. To fix that it need to be tested very thoroughly and draw attention to all powers (including Bloodmoon, Legacy & other devices) to flag manually those are matching concept (e.g. Ice Grenades could take Targeting Computer bonus, since they've similar look with Frag Grenade and so on).

ogremindes

chaelk said:

Please, there are so many things that could set it off.

hold, root are both controls​​

Roots isn't really in the realm of what I'm concerned with here. Unless I'm mistaken roots don't cause Hold Resistance and aren't the primary effect of any dedicated control power

avianos said:

Meanwhile, they still hasn't fixed the Issue of the powers which don't Trigger Manipulator and SHOULD

http://forum.arcgames.com/championsonline/discussion/246505/manipulator-the-picky-form

http://forum.arcgames.com/championsonline/discussion/250260/manipulator-the-picky-form-part-ii-the-sequel



but again, it is Crowd Control and we are in Champions Online​​

True, but outside the realm of what I'm addressing: Dedicated Hold powers no longer work effectively with the crowd control form.

spookyspectre

I felt compelled to take Eldritch Blast to help build and maintain stacks of Manipulator but, with the recent nerf, it seems like a requirement now. If there was any flexibility with making a Controller build, it seems to have been reduced by this change. Maybe, someday, there will be an investment made to increase CC build flexibility and effectiveness?

theravenforce

spookyspectre said:

Maybe, someday, there will be an investment made to increase CC build flexibility and effectiveness?

Maybe in another game that isn't so blatantly anti-crowd control like CO.

*waits for Internal CD to be added to Manipulator and base cooldowns on CC powers to be increased*

theravenforce

The intention was to continue down the well trodden road of making Crowd Control even less desirable in CO.

Why do I say this?

The only forms of crowd control which can still reliably stack Manipulator with this stupid nerf are Incapaciderps (Incapacitates), however, when you look at the mechanics behind such a class of CC, you realize that it is not suited for dealing with team content since enemies which are under your control are likely either to:

- Break out.
- Die from caster or team mate DPS

Both conditions prematurely end the maintain which spells an end to your stacking form and a cooldown on your powers.

Of course, not forgetting the 1-2 second gap on casting where targets can run out of your control range or kill you whilst you are casting.

spookyspectre

The Manipulator nerf is really strange. Yes, it was easy to build and maintain stacks of Manipulator before but that seemed to be the only bread crumb CO threw out to Controllers. I can't imagine what caught the Developers' eye that made them focus on Manipulator as an issue. Did a controller's flashy but ineffective incapacitate distract someone during the TGM storm? I just don't see what we were saved from?

It's a bit sad, but the fantasy generating center of my brain, for an instant, dreamed the nerf might be in preparation for upcoming CC fixes that would make sense of the Manipulator nerf.

baelogventure

Ten bucks says a GM/Dev was moonlighting in PvP and got chain-CC'd from someone with Manipulator stacks, or something similar.

spookyspectre

If stun locking is the issue, they need to remove stuns from being buffed by Manipulator instead of killing Manipulator. I thought normal CC powers were nerfed to a 4 second max time in PVP so it's hard to imagine someone being chain-CC'd.

theravenforce

spookyspectre said:

If stun locking is the issue, they need to remove stuns from being buffed by Manipulator instead of killing Manipulator. I thought normal CC powers were nerfed to a 4 second max time in PVP so it's hard to imagine someone being chain-CC'd.

Yeah I discussed that on the Crowd Control Discussion thread in PTS thread, I recommend you check it out and my fake patch notes