Yup, the only reason you should ever have to "try and survive" in an Onslaught fight is if A) your the OV and your just getting annihilated (something's gone terribly wrong if this happens) or B ) you're still affected by the Defeated buff/debuff... If you've got the Defeated buff on you and you let an OV kill you, you're not contributing to anything...
Speaking of...
Suggested change to the "Defeated" buff... While under the effects of the Defeated buff you should be immune to Vile Challenge (this way you can turtle to out-live the buff allowing OVs to earn tokens from you again without resetting your buff for no reward), and perhaps gain an amount of damage reduction to OV attacks.
There is a big difference between dying and being constantly slaughtered. One of them isn't a big deal, the other makes players feel their character is worthless. When you have as many villain as you do heroes, the villain side is grossly overpowering the hero side. Buffing the villain side isn't going to fix the lack of participating heroes.
We've just become very used to "never dying" or losing in any way shape or form. So I think it's been hard for CO players to grasp Onslaught. It really is a fun and farmable event... which is exactly what it's supposed to be. But there so many other factors at play here.. things are getting cloudy.
It's rubbish. It really is. It's an anti-game. Take your hero character, which now cannot block, or stun, or interrupt, or use its travel power, or its vehicle, or anything else, and run it into the path of the villain. Die. Respawn. Repeat until your friend has his required tokens. Switch roles. Rinse and repeat. The Nerfing is low comedy - of course you're having a problem with ubertanks and exploits... no-one else is interested in playing it. And why would they be?
I have not seen "as many villains as heroes" recently; mostly I've been doing it solo.
What I'd like to see as a way around the turtling is a complete change to how tokens are awarded. Something like:
Attack an OV: 10% x (power activation time) to gain 1 token.
Attacked by an OV: 10% x (power activation time) to gain 1 token.
Damage an OV: gain 1 token per 0.5% of health done.
Heal or shield an OV target: 10% x (power activation time) to gain 1 token.
Damage to the OV does not otherwise have an effect; turret diving does not help. Something like this naturally discourages block camping, for the simple reason that, unless the OV is actually attacking you, you won't get any tokens. Sure, if the OV decides to beat on you continually you'll want to block, but if they swap targets you should really stop, and your best option is dps -- you'll get 1 per 10s from just attacking, and if you can manage 1,500 dps you'll get another 1 from damage. This also means that attacking an OV solo isn't a total waste of time.
Squirreloid, your ignoring the fact that most OVs stand in one spot 90% of the time and only move if the only killable targets keep running away from them. OVs need tokens just as much as you do and they don't get a large lump sum at the end of the fight, they only get a handful for every hero kill they get and more often than not they are surrounded by unkillables. While I may not exactly agree with the changes 100% I do accept them as necessary (though any number of alternative solutions would have likely been better). What I do agree with 100% though is that vehicles have no place in Onslaught. OVs are not meant to be solo'd by a vehicle and when an OV runs off they usually fall in one of the following categories 1) hunting OV targets, 2) looking for a group that they can actually get some kills off of, or 3) trolling... if they are Trolling then just ignore them (and maybe report them). If they are hunting OV targets, let them go, they will most likely hop over to the PH or something and let you and everyone else tag them before suiciding. If they are looking for a different group to get kills from, re-evaluate what your doing and play nice when/if you follow them, they are trying to earn tokens just like you are, stop cheating them out of their tokens.
Most OVs get 50 VTs off targets (if they bother with VTs at all), then announce a turret dive, so OV combat vs. vehicles is irrelevant to most people who are even using the devices.
Don't project people 'cheating' OVs out of tokens on me. I've even stopped attacking to let villains kill me before.
I only use vehicles against OVs in a few situations, and generally because its the only way I can play: (1) I'm expecting a turret dive and just breezed in - i'm not about to hop off my vehicle for this (2) The villain moves around enough that I can't attack them without being in a vehicle. This is at least 50% of the OVs who are actually looking for a fight. They don't all kite like crazy all over westside, but even jumping every few seconds renders every melee character and a fair number of ranged characters irrelevant. And let's not forget that OV normal movement rate is faster than most travel powers at combat speeds. A Grond who simply moves in a 50' diameter circle is forever out of melee range. Lunges don't close the distance (by the time the lunge finishes, they're out of range again), and in the off chance you do get to start a melee attack, by the time you make the attack they're out of your range again. (3) There are 3+ OVs in the area, and the only way i can survive long enough to get a hit in is with a vehicle.
I *never* 'strafe' villains and then move out of their range repeatedly.
I also rarely see vehicles 'abusing' OVs (especially since gravity pulse stopped pulling them). Yes, they can be in the air so medusa or grond have to jump to use non-range powers, but they aren't running out of range repeatedly. Vehicles are easier to kill as medusa than the supertanks some players love to bring to OV fights. And OVs universally outrange vehicles on their ranged attacks.
Basically, this is attempting to solve a non-problem, and only exacerbating existing problems with villain movement. Players respond to incentives - if you think we aren't going to see more OVs kiting when and if these changes go live, you're delusional. (Assuming anyone cares enough to even 'play' Onslaught at all).
Bottom line: fix problems with villain movement *first*, then consider whether nttg on vehicles makes sense.
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As an aside, it annoys me that OVs outrange sniper rifle. Sniper rifle's niche was supposed to be that it was the longest ranged attack in the game, even with the laughable (for a sniper rifle) 120' it had. That was the whole reason why it had the ridiculously large charge time and the 'any damage disrupts the charge' mechanic - it's certainly not the top dps performing power. Now villains have something like *twice* the range of sniper rifle - combine that with massive aoe and snipers might as well not bother to show up to OV fights.
Of course, you and pentagruel are both completely ignoring that its already possible for the OV to take off at high speeds, and if they can nttg the only hero options capable of keeping up with them, they'll be impossible to fight.
OVs are already impossible to fight if they decide to leave. Fix is to make NttG do something to OVs.
So fix the OVs first. Just hurting player ability to keep up only makes things worse.
Urr.. if that was the case, people wouldn't use vehicles against OVs who don't move around.
Players get trained by OVs who kite to use vehicles. Those who do kite or move around a lot make them fearful that any OV could start doing that at any time. I'd never have touched a vehicle against OVs if I hadn't been a victim of that kind of behavior.
Endbringer's Grasp doesn't really need a nerf since most people are just going to run right through it. Rarely will you ever just have someone stand in the middle of it. I'm not against OVs having block disable powers, but turnabout is fair play. - OVs should not have immunity to stuns or even knocks and should definitely be able to get rooted. - They should be highly resistant to both to the point where crowd control effects and knocks affect OVs for only a fraction of their normal ability, but the Onslaught content needs more combat variation in general. - The only exception should be interrupts and repels which do not have resistance stacks and can thus be exploited.
To many things have been taken out of play in the name of fairness, and now no one can use their abilities they way they are intended to be used.
So fix the OVs first. Just hurting player ability to keep up only makes things worse.
The reason to make NttG work on OVs is so melee isn't rendered utterly worthless, not because of any need to chase down OVs. You're vastly overreacting to a very small number of players who you wouldn't be able to catch anyway because there's other ways of running.
I'll admit that the proposed change with dealing with heroes blocking when running an OV is perhaps a bit over the top, it IS a real issue. I've stopped doing Onslaught for the exact reason that I am usually unable to get my Villain tokens because of turtling players. Heroes get tokens easily. Not just when the OV dies, but also at the 2/3 health mark and 1/3 health mark. OVs only get tokens from killing. Unkillable heroes = no Villain tokens.
Vile Challenge is a step in the right direction, we just need to fine toon it some.
But I think riverocean points out that the root problem is how the reward system is structured versus player mentality. We need alternate objectives to grant Villain tokens at least. Perhaps also no the hero side as well, but I really feel the OVs have it much worse currently.
< The intention of Endbringer's was to bring a brand new effect into CO, and because of the damage Endbringer's deals, this effect is not as noticeable. . . . Not every Ultimate needs to deal more damage or kill faster (but they shouldn't be flat out useless or highly situational either *looks at Mind Link, Energy Storm and Planar Fracture*). I'm glad to see at least in terms of Endbringer's and Fractal Aegis (even though FA needs VFX help and function help IMO), the focus is being shifted away from straight up damage and more into Utility Powers and Defensive Abilities.
I totally agree with this idea, but a power that can turn trash mobs into brief, temporary allies just tends to make some take longer. If it could affect Master Villains and Enforcers, that would be nice, but still . . . meh. So many encounters simply consist of a single boss, or a group of trash mobs that die promptly, leaving a single boss. Having an ultimate that then becomes useless for really important fights just won't cut it.
If damage was kept high against targets immune to faction change, but lowered drastically against targets it can change, I would be happy enough.
It's quite easy to get your daily as an OV -- it's just that the reliable way of doing it is stupidly boring. My preference is to actually go against players, not farm onslaught guardians.
I will say, though, that it's not really blocking that's the problem. The problem is either (a) no-one comes at all, or (b) people who feel "I only need to attack once every five minutes" is reasonable (that includes block turtlers, people who tag and run, people who run over and hide next to a turret, etc).
There's no such thing as "kiting" OVs anymore. No one even bothers with Onslaught about 90% of the day, and the few of us that do it during prime time for dailies just farm 50 tokens off targets then stand there next to defender kiosk and let people hit us for a bit, while we try to kill the one or two players there that don't have impenetrable defenses and/or infinite healing before turret diving.
OVs still stand no chance whatsoever of killing anything but the most squishy/low level of players. Even with the ability to block cancel or NTTG. It doesn't matter. People can heal for thousands of damage per second and mitigate tens of thousands of points of spike damage passively. And are still being given even better gear to make themselves even more invulnerable to this day.
You may as well just turn the OV devices into "Become meta PvP build" devices and have them running around with the normal 20k hp, 5,000hps healing, 15k spike cooldown rotation builds with the same exact travel powers and limitations as players. Just make them last for a set "while being used" time instead of having charges. Because that's the only way this stuff will ever approach any semblance of balance against how terribly broken we have become through constant power creep over 6 years, with literally no change at all to increase the difficulty level of any content in the game. TL;DR: Game's imbalanced as hell. Onslaught is just a grind for tokens no one -actually- wants to participate in as a legit "Game Mode". We'll never balance OVs with the total range of potential participating player builds, so you may as well just make them into far more frail but endgame player-murdering death machines and at least make it interesting to play, instead of the voluntary kill trading meta we have now.
When I heard about Onslaught, and the OVs having targets to attack in the city, I imagined them having banks to rob, labs to bust into, monuments to destroy, and so on. You know, acts of villainy. I think the solution is more in providing those kinds of things, having those targets provide villain tokens, and trying to create some interplay where heroes can defend those targets in order to get the OVs to attack them instead of the targets. Perhaps the OV only gets tokens as elements of their target are destroyed if there's X or less heroes with active OV combat flags in the area, so if they want tokens from the target, they have to take out some heroes. By the same token, this can keep heroes from just kiting around corners to avoid damage all of the time (unless there's a lot of them). It would also help move OV battles away from respawn points, and it would add a sense of accomplishment to heroes if they save the target, even if they're dying fairly frequently.
To me, honestly, it'd feel more epic and gratifying on both sides. It's kind of disappointing that the OV system turned out to just be supervillains and heroes randomly duking it out in the city streets for no reason or purpose.
Comments
Speaking of...
Suggested change to the "Defeated" buff... While under the effects of the Defeated buff you should be immune to Vile Challenge (this way you can turtle to out-live the buff allowing OVs to earn tokens from you again without resetting your buff for no reward), and perhaps gain an amount of damage reduction to OV attacks.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
It's rubbish. It really is. It's an anti-game. Take your hero character, which now cannot block, or stun, or interrupt, or use its travel power, or its vehicle, or anything else, and run it into the path of the villain. Die. Respawn. Repeat until your friend has his required tokens. Switch roles. Rinse and repeat. The Nerfing is low comedy - of course you're having a problem with ubertanks and exploits... no-one else is interested in playing it. And why would they be?
What I'd like to see as a way around the turtling is a complete change to how tokens are awarded. Something like:
- Attack an OV: 10% x (power activation time) to gain 1 token.
- Attacked by an OV: 10% x (power activation time) to gain 1 token.
- Damage an OV: gain 1 token per 0.5% of health done.
- Heal or shield an OV target: 10% x (power activation time) to gain 1 token.
Damage to the OV does not otherwise have an effect; turret diving does not help. Something like this naturally discourages block camping, for the simple reason that, unless the OV is actually attacking you, you won't get any tokens. Sure, if the OV decides to beat on you continually you'll want to block, but if they swap targets you should really stop, and your best option is dps -- you'll get 1 per 10s from just attacking, and if you can manage 1,500 dps you'll get another 1 from damage. This also means that attacking an OV solo isn't a total waste of time.Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Don't project people 'cheating' OVs out of tokens on me. I've even stopped attacking to let villains kill me before.
I only use vehicles against OVs in a few situations, and generally because its the only way I can play:
(1) I'm expecting a turret dive and just breezed in - i'm not about to hop off my vehicle for this
(2) The villain moves around enough that I can't attack them without being in a vehicle. This is at least 50% of the OVs who are actually looking for a fight. They don't all kite like crazy all over westside, but even jumping every few seconds renders every melee character and a fair number of ranged characters irrelevant. And let's not forget that OV normal movement rate is faster than most travel powers at combat speeds. A Grond who simply moves in a 50' diameter circle is forever out of melee range. Lunges don't close the distance (by the time the lunge finishes, they're out of range again), and in the off chance you do get to start a melee attack, by the time you make the attack they're out of your range again.
(3) There are 3+ OVs in the area, and the only way i can survive long enough to get a hit in is with a vehicle.
I *never* 'strafe' villains and then move out of their range repeatedly.
I also rarely see vehicles 'abusing' OVs (especially since gravity pulse stopped pulling them). Yes, they can be in the air so medusa or grond have to jump to use non-range powers, but they aren't running out of range repeatedly. Vehicles are easier to kill as medusa than the supertanks some players love to bring to OV fights. And OVs universally outrange vehicles on their ranged attacks.
Basically, this is attempting to solve a non-problem, and only exacerbating existing problems with villain movement. Players respond to incentives - if you think we aren't going to see more OVs kiting when and if these changes go live, you're delusional. (Assuming anyone cares enough to even 'play' Onslaught at all).
Bottom line: fix problems with villain movement *first*, then consider whether nttg on vehicles makes sense.
--------------
As an aside, it annoys me that OVs outrange sniper rifle. Sniper rifle's niche was supposed to be that it was the longest ranged attack in the game, even with the laughable (for a sniper rifle) 120' it had. That was the whole reason why it had the ridiculously large charge time and the 'any damage disrupts the charge' mechanic - it's certainly not the top dps performing power. Now villains have something like *twice* the range of sniper rifle - combine that with massive aoe and snipers might as well not bother to show up to OV fights.
I'm not against OVs having block disable powers, but turnabout is fair play.
- OVs should not have immunity to stuns or even knocks and should definitely be able to get rooted.
- They should be highly resistant to both to the point where crowd control effects and knocks affect OVs for only a fraction of their normal ability, but the Onslaught content needs more combat variation in general.
- The only exception should be interrupts and repels which do not have resistance stacks and can thus be exploited.
To many things have been taken out of play in the name of fairness, and now no one can use their abilities they way they are intended to be used.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Vile Challenge is a step in the right direction, we just need to fine toon it some.
But I think riverocean points out that the root problem is how the reward system is structured versus player mentality. We need alternate objectives to grant Villain tokens at least. Perhaps also no the hero side as well, but I really feel the OVs have it much worse currently.
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If damage was kept high against targets immune to faction change, but lowered drastically against targets it can change, I would be happy enough.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I will say, though, that it's not really blocking that's the problem. The problem is either (a) no-one comes at all, or (b) people who feel "I only need to attack once every five minutes" is reasonable (that includes block turtlers, people who tag and run, people who run over and hide next to a turret, etc).
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
OVs still stand no chance whatsoever of killing anything but the most squishy/low level of players. Even with the ability to block cancel or NTTG. It doesn't matter. People can heal for thousands of damage per second and mitigate tens of thousands of points of spike damage passively. And are still being given even better gear to make themselves even more invulnerable to this day.
You may as well just turn the OV devices into "Become meta PvP build" devices and have them running around with the normal 20k hp, 5,000hps healing, 15k spike cooldown rotation builds with the same exact travel powers and limitations as players. Just make them last for a set "while being used" time instead of having charges. Because that's the only way this stuff will ever approach any semblance of balance against how terribly broken we have become through constant power creep over 6 years, with literally no change at all to increase the difficulty level of any content in the game.
TL;DR: Game's imbalanced as hell. Onslaught is just a grind for tokens no one -actually- wants to participate in as a legit "Game Mode". We'll never balance OVs with the total range of potential participating player builds, so you may as well just make them into far more frail but endgame player-murdering death machines and at least make it interesting to play, instead of the voluntary kill trading meta we have now.
Snark never dies.
To me, honestly, it'd feel more epic and gratifying on both sides. It's kind of disappointing that the OV system turned out to just be supervillains and heroes randomly duking it out in the city streets for no reason or purpose.