Cooldown Reduction and CDR rating 'drastically reduced'

iamrune

ladygadfly wrote: »

- Intelligence: Cooldown Reduction granted by Intelligence has been drastically reduced.
- Cooldown Reduction Rating: Cooldown Reduction granted by Cooldown Reduction rating has been drastically reduced.

So, I think we need to discuss this at least somewhat, pros and cons, with no drama and bickering.

My initial thoughts are that the 'drastic reductions' are probably a little TOO drastic. This isn't just a nerf hammer, it's a Nerf Wrecking Ball.

I also kind of feel that this nerf should hit the Rating on gear more than the stat itself, mostly because the power sets keyed to use Intelligence such as Gadgeteering and Archery, are rather built around the idea of both using and mollifying the long and medium cooldown powers into something more useful, by bringing those cooldowns into line with other powers.

Honestly speaking, I'm not even sure it does that, even with massive CDR going, there are a flat ton of Gadgeteering and Archery powers that are flat out weak compared to similar powers in other sets.

I think Archery is well known to be the lowest performing DPS ranged set of powers in the entire game, even with Cooldown reduction going.

Gadgeteering powers that deal significant area damage have both a long cooldown and high energy cost, both such factors built into the set because it is expected Gadgeteers will have Int lowering the costs and the cooldowns.

I don't even want to think about what this amount of nerf will do to the Archetypes that use these stats and depend on them. The Archer AT wll be hit hard with it's secondary Int stat adding almost nothing to it's build, as unless it's a Prime stat, Int does nothing for an Archer now. As a Prime stat it can also at least spec into Damage Penetration, but as a secondary stat with this nerf on CDR? It adds so little that the AT would be better off with Rec or End as a second stat instead now. And the AT can't even take MSA to try to make the secondary Int at least a little useful.

I've never tried the Gadgeteer Archetype, but I suspect it's going to be just as bad if not worse for them.

I think a balanced and more fair approach is to look at this the way the Dodge nerf was handled, and make it so more of the loss of CDR is shouldered by the Rating on gear, and nobody should be able to just gear into awesome CDR, and then nerf only slightly the CDR granted by Int alone. Then if people want / need more CDR, they can use the click powers in the game meant to provide it.

It's my assumption that an amount of CDR = 10% would be acceptable on a build that only gets it from gear alone, and maybe 25-30% CDR for a build that is CDR only from stats and specs alone.

Perhaps the top end [unless also rocking Aura of Arcane Clarity, which is a huge tradeoff] should be about 33% CDR.

Maybe that massive 50% CDR with Aura of Arcane Clarity, and that only on the guy using it. His team would see maybe the 10% CDR buff.

TLDR;
At the very least, I strongly feel that I don't think that this LEVEL of nerf is warranted unless those two power sets [Archery and Gadgeteering at the minimum] get the kind of attention Dodge buffing powers got when the Dodge nerf was running around.

aiqa

I don't think only nerfing the CDR from gear is a good idea, INT is already one of the best stats you can get. On live it does a significant CDR, a pretty ok ish cost reduction, some stealth sight, concentration scaling, MSA scaling, quarry scaling. CON is the only stat that can compete with that and other "energy stats" like REC or END do not come even close. A nerf to CDR from gear while keeping CDR from INT would be a completely unneeded relative buff to INT.

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mrhinkypunk

As a PvP'er I just want to point out that I'm now using sonic arrow on my build and it's performing better than sonic device. If that isn't a good thing then I don't know what is. Archery can be changed while moving and is 100ft, it's generally a good powerset CC and maneuverability wise.

The problem is is that a fair few people that mainly just PvE usually only care about DPS and/or survivability while not sacrificing any dps really.

Gadgeteering actually has a fair few powers that can hit pretty high DPS too and once again talking from my point of view in PvP they are close to OP. (I know I'm mentioning things from a PvP point of a view, don't hate me for that this is my personal view on the matter <_<)

I honestly don't understand how people are saying that CDR is affecting archery more than other's, and although I can kind of see why people would say it for gadgeteering there is a fair bit in that which is still fairly good.

I always had a big problem with AT's, it always seemed so much more beneficial just to stack con on all of them. On my inventor I had 14k hp by con stacking with int's 30% more on non super stats and I performed better than most ineventors, in a pvp sense I actually won BASH a few times and won some duels against UR builds.

The idea with how things that been nerfed is to double CD times as they are as so many powers end up getting to a broken point when the cd gets too low on them.

pantagruel01

I would like to see Int and CDR rating points being equal -- crit rating points are equal in effect to Dex, cost reduction rating points are equal in effect to Int, but CDR rating points are about 80% better than Int.​​

KagamiTheMagicalCatGerl

Drastic problems require drastic solutions. I consider the ability to cut all cooldowns in half just with gear a drastic problem. If they do change the amount of the nerf, I hope they don't go too far, because the current amount on PTS actually feels pretty good. 25% reduction through gear alone is still a good chunk.

aiqa

pantagruel01 wrote: »

I would like to see Int and CDR rating points being equal -- crit rating points are equal in effect to Dex, cost reduction rating points are equal in effect to Int, but CDR rating points are about 80% better than Int.​​

INT has a few more advantages over CDR rating than DEX has over crit rating.
A little closer in CDR performance per point would be ok, but exactly the same would be a bit to much.

mrhinkypunk wrote: »

I honestly don't understand how people are saying that CDR is affecting archery more than other's, and although I can kind of see why people would say it for gadgeteering there is a fair bit in that which is still fairly good.

I would think because of Archery attacks that do have a CD. If you don't want a tech achery theme you're more or less stuck with Storm of Arrows and Torrent of Arrows for AoE. Even with the huge CDR on live those two attacks are not particularly OP, and with the CDR norfs on PTS they do not perform nicely at all.

mrhinkypunk

aiqa wrote: »

I would think because of Archery attacks that do have a CD. If you don't want a tech achery theme you're more or less stuck with Storm of Arrows and Torrent of Arrows for AoE. Even with the huge CDR on live those two attacks are not particularly OP, and with the CDR norfs on PTS they do not perform nicely at all.

But they are CC's... One is a 100ft knock that doens't self root you like FG and the other is a pretty strong root. The fact that the cc isn't needed in PvE content is another problem. They shouldn't have amazing damage.

Archery's damage isn't supposed to be in those two powers, those are supposed to be utility and cc while still hitting a bit of damage. Their CD's were designed how they were back when the powers were made for a reason.

theravenforce

Personally, looking over my builds and speaking to others, I do understand why this nerf had to happen, but as per usual, it was a severe nerf.

INT's effectiveness has been cut by a large amount, something like 70% which translates into the cooldowns I have on LIVE essentially doubling.

My guess is that the more INT you have the more severe the effect will be. As someone who uses INT quite a lot that'll be something I have to control for either through testing or changing how some characters are built.

On the other hand, this adjustment to INT and CDR means that a few of my builds will actually have to use INT now and I'm preparing for that.

It seems highly unlikely that the adjustments will be reverted or lessened, but I would like to see certain powers reviewed in terms of their base CD's. Then again, if what players were able to accomplish was unintended then it is unlikely such a change/review will be carried out except in exceptional circumstances.

I think the intention was to make INT more or less about as valuable as other stats, so that it isn't always taken in favour of other stats.

As for what this all means? I guess I'll just be blocking a bit more.

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theravenforce

If a build has many powers on cooldown and you don't feel like using an energy builder...are you just going to stand there? If I'm on cooldown I tend to block, as I said:

I guess I'll just be blocking a bit more.

^ That doesn't mean everyone will be doing what I want to do.

As for the cooldown comment, all you need to do is have a look at the basic cooldowns on powers, minus INT and CDR. Active Offensives and Active Defensives were not meant to be cycled.

I should never have two or three instances of BCR on me when the power itself lasts for 16 seconds. The global CD was done intentionally and affected all powers...intentionally.

It cannot be denied that INT was probably the most valuable stat in Champions Online as it is on LIVE and it meant that other stats weren't used as much or just shafted in favour of INT. The basic message this adjustment says is that INT was overperforming and actually "this is how it is supposed to be".

Whilst INT is still very useful on the PTS, it isn't stupidly useful to the point where I can be activating strong healing every 4 seconds or so.

If a Developer had the time to explain or state that these changes were intended the way it has happened, I'm sure they would, but it is highly unlikely that there will be a longwinded explanation. The best we may hear is:

"Intelligence and Cooldown Reduction Gear was over performing by XX%/a factor of X and this adjustment was introduced to bring it in line with other stats in terms of usefulness"

^ Something like that. Of course I am very happy to be proved wrong in this regard and if a Dev does have time to explain stuff then that would be great.

cogswell

theravenforce wrote: »

If a build has many powers on cooldown and you don't feel like using an energy builder...are you just going to stand there? If I'm on cooldown I tend to block, as I said:

I guess I'll just be blocking a bit more.

^ That doesn't mean everyone will be doing what I want to do.

As for the cooldown comment, all you need to do is have a look at the basic cooldowns on powers, minus INT and CDR. Active Offensives and Active Defensives were not meant to be cycled.

I should never have two or three instances of BCR on me when the power itself lasts for 16 seconds. The global CD was done intentionally and affected all powers...intentionally.

It cannot be denied that INT was probably the most valuable stat in Champions Online as it is on LIVE and it meant that other stats weren't used as much or just shafted in favour of INT. The basic message this adjustment says is that INT was overperforming and actually "this is how it is supposed to be".

Whilst INT is still very useful on the PTS, it isn't stupidly useful to the point where I can be activating strong healing every 4 seconds or so.

If a Developer had the time to explain or state that these changes were intended the way it has happened, I'm sure they would, but it is highly unlikely that there will be a longwinded explanation. The best we may hear is:

"Intelligence and Cooldown Reduction Gear was over performing by XX%/a factor of X and this adjustment was introduced to bring it in line with other stats in terms of usefulness"

^ Something like that. Of course I am very happy to be proved wrong in this regard and if a Dev does have time to explain stuff then that would be great.

I am in fact really interested in an explanation for this, as I feel rather up in arms against the whole thing. I feel like the only reason people are complaining about CDR is from a PvP perspective, and I think its unfair to enact such a severe nerf from purely that perspective. I could be wrong on this, but that's why I'd like an explanation why.

To me, the point of having such in-depth and complicated mechanics is to be able to play around with them, and for me I find joy in pushing things to the limits to see what they can do. So if I want to invest all my stats into having 600 in so that I can have a 29 second CD to cycle my Active Defense, I don't see why I'm suddenly told I'm not allowed to do this. I would think that something like this is what they should be testing for. This game has been Live for years and, to my knowledge, INT and CD have never been nerfed before, so why is it NOW that its suddenly being deemed 'too useful'?

Frankly, the way INT is now seems appropriate to me. If the only way to win a fight was to have a ton of Strength and Con, and basically Hulk out, than what does that say for the players who want to play a Super Intelligent Character? Sure its harder to make a decent build heavily relying on INT, but that's what makes it fun when you do and it works. But now I feel like I'm being punished for trying to be clever. And hey, saying that the brute force muscle-headed characters would be more effective with some more Intelligence, seems accurate to me.

Ultimately I guess my point is that Cooldown is just another part of the game that people can build for and break like healing or holds or critical chance and severity, or defense and HP. Any of those can be pushed to ridiculous limits, its just a matter of how you choose to paly the game. Are we going to see PvPers complaining about the 1 to 1 ratio of Knock strength on Ego and Strength next because they're tired of getting ringed out in duels from Haymakers and Force Cascades? Because that's just another mechanic in the game that some people choose to build for. I guess I just hate being told that the way I chose to play is suddenly 'broken' to this extent? AD cycling isn't the end-all be-all of builds or PvPing.

I would just really like an explanation why this is happening.

pantagruel01

christomsky1 wrote: »

I am in fact really interested in an explanation for this, as I feel rather up in arms against the whole thing. I feel like the only reason people are complaining about CDR is from a PvP perspective

People rarely complain about being overpowered in PvE. That doesn't mean it isn't overpowered, it just means people don't complain about it.

I routinely tank Alert bosses unsupported in Avenger; I don't tank Rampage bosses that way (well, other than my ice form Frosticus tank), but some people do. That's really not the way the game is intended to work. On the offense side, a lot of the 8k dps on top end builds comes from cooldown reduction.

christomsky1 wrote: »

Frankly, the way INT is now seems appropriate to me. If the only way to win a fight was to have a ton of Strength and Con, and basically Hulk out, than what does that say for the players who want to play a Super Intelligent Character? Sure its harder to make a decent build heavily relying on INT

Heavy int builds are probably the easiest builds to create and run. In general, for a power build in the current meta, two of your superstats will be Int and Con, and then, depending on your purpose, the third will be one of Str, Dex, and Pre. Post-nerf, I might consider Ego, Rec and End are still nope outside of somewhat specialized builds.

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pantagruel01

gradii wrote: »

But we'll still be tanking alert bosses in Avenger role.

True, true, though that's hardly an argument against nerfing cooldown. On the other hand, I was killing mega-D on PTS (first trying it as Grond; my timer ran out with the mega-D at half health) and my hit points were actually going down in Avenger role.

cogswell

INT and Cooldown though was my way of differentiating my build in PvP. It seems the more they nerf things, the more they're forcing our hand into what a PvP build HAS to have to be useful. So much for cycling ADs as my only defense, guess its back to Defiant or Invulnerability and stacking CON like EVERYBODY else...

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sterga

I do think that you shouldn't be able to get amazing cdr with just gear. Int is the stat for CDR and it's the stat that should be invested in if someone wants amazing cool downs. That said, if you invest 600 + points into a stat, it should give you amazing returns on what that stat is for. But that will not be the case soon for Int.

On live, I decided to preemptively drop all of the Int out of my laser sword build. I took Str pss and traded my Int sec utility for dex sec utility. My build is doing better now that it was before. In fact, I plan to drop Int down to 10 and use Dex as my energy stat instead. This is on live. Right now.

~ 400 Dex give 50 energy on crit with a FotT. Str tree has a fabulous melee cost discount, no Int required. Basically, by investing in my damage, I'll have most / all the energy I need. With only 12 energy cost on my swings, I only need to crit once every other second to have my energy covered. And MSA still can be useful with 10 Int. So will Force Shield. And my EB still works if all that fails.

With the change to cool downs, Particle Smash + Sonic Device combo isn't going to be worth having in my build. Mindlessly spamming laser sword is going to be better for my damage. And since that combo is expensive, I will have fewer energy problems.

Seems to me the problem with most stats is that they aren't worth investing heavily into. Most stat trees give great rewards for using other stats. And generally doesn't matter what that stat is. You can get decent crit chance with 10 dex. You can get a heavy cost discount with 10 Int.

The biggest thing this Int nerf showed me is that Int is over hyped.

purin1

christomsky1 wrote: »

INT and Cooldown though was my way of differentiating my build in PvP. It seems the more they nerf things, the more they're forcing our hand into what a PvP build HAS to have to be useful. So much for cycling ADs as my only defense, guess its back to Defiant or Invulnerability and stacking CON like EVERYBODY else...

Hate to break it to ya, but nearly every single PvPer already relies on INT and cooldowns alongside their defense to survive.​​

quasimojo1

pantagruel01 wrote: »

christomsky1 wrote: »

I am in fact really interested in an explanation for this, as I feel rather up in arms against the whole thing. I feel like the only reason people are complaining about CDR is from a PvP perspective

People rarely complain about being overpowered in PvE. That doesn't mean it isn't overpowered, it just means people don't complain about it.

I routinely tank Alert bosses unsupported in Avenger; I don't tank Rampage bosses that way (well, other than my ice form Frosticus tank), but some people do. That's really not the way the game is intended to work. On the offense side, a lot of the 8k dps on top end builds comes from cooldown reduction.

This nerf does not just target the outlier builds that do 8K DPS. It reduces the effectiveness of all builds that rely on powers with cooldowns, whether they are DPS, tank, support, PvE, PvP, theme builds, or min-max builds. The question is not whether or not some specific tuning of cooldowns is reasonable, particularly with respect to AO/AD's. It's whether this drastic a nerf on all cooldowns is well thought out and scaled appropriately.

cogswell

purin1 wrote: »

christomsky1 wrote: »

INT and Cooldown though was my way of differentiating my build in PvP. It seems the more they nerf things, the more they're forcing our hand into what a PvP build HAS to have to be useful. So much for cycling ADs as my only defense, guess its back to Defiant or Invulnerability and stacking CON like EVERYBODY else...

Hate to break it to ya, but nearly every single PvPer already relies on INT and cooldowns alongside their defense to survive.​​

I don't see why its a problem though. At least to be a problem to this extent of such a severe nerfing just because of some PvPers?

purin1

christomsky1 wrote: »

I don't see why its a problem though. At least to be a problem to this extent of such a severe nerfing just because of some PvPers?

Not only PvPers. Even in alerts and rampages, you can see a large number of Freeform builds, PvP or PvE, relying on stuff like MSA and ADs.​​

cogswell

quasimojo1 wrote: »

pantagruel01 wrote: »

christomsky1 wrote: »

I am in fact really interested in an explanation for this, as I feel rather up in arms against the whole thing. I feel like the only reason people are complaining about CDR is from a PvP perspective

People rarely complain about being overpowered in PvE. That doesn't mean it isn't overpowered, it just means people don't complain about it.

I routinely tank Alert bosses unsupported in Avenger; I don't tank Rampage bosses that way (well, other than my ice form Frosticus tank), but some people do. That's really not the way the game is intended to work. On the offense side, a lot of the 8k dps on top end builds comes from cooldown reduction.

This nerf does not just target the outlier builds that do 8K DPS. It reduces the effectiveness of all builds that rely on powers with cooldowns, whether they are DPS, tank, support, PvE, PvP, theme builds, or min-max builds. The question is not whether or not some specific tuning of cooldowns is reasonable, particularly with respect to AO/AD's. It's whether this drastic a nerf on all cooldowns is well thought out and scaled appropriately.

That's the point I'm trying to make. I can see why some people are up in arms about being able to cycle ADs and AOs, but if they really are THAT big a problem then adjust the cooldowns on those and the couple other powers being abused, don't throw a monkey wrench at the whole system.

And besides, as an AD cycler, I still get beat time to time THROUGH my AD's. They're not a perfect defense like everyone thinks they are, they're just another thing ya gotta learn to paly around. Most people have a gap between the ADs even when they're vulnerable. Its just strategy.

pantagruel01

quasimojo1 wrote: »

This nerf does not just target the outlier builds that do 8K DPS. It reduces the effectiveness of all builds that rely on powers with cooldowns

Yes, it's possible to make a build that uses heavy cooldowns that isn't very effective, but you can't do balancing based on "people can choose to nerf themselves".

theravenforce

christomsky1 wrote: »

I am in fact really interested in an explanation for this, as I feel rather up in arms against the whole thing. I feel like the only reason people are complaining about CDR is from a PvP perspective, and I think its unfair to enact such a severe nerf from purely that perspective. I could be wrong on this, but that's why I'd like an explanation why.

To me, the point of having such in-depth and complicated mechanics is to be able to play around with them, and for me I find joy in pushing things to the limits to see what they can do. So if I want to invest all my stats into having 600 in so that I can have a 29 second CD to cycle my Active Defense, I don't see why I'm suddenly told I'm not allowed to do this. I would think that something like this is what they should be testing for. This game has been Live for years and, to my knowledge, INT and CD have never been nerfed before, so why is it NOW that its suddenly being deemed 'too useful'?

As am I, I received an answer of sorts whilst on PTS but I'm not about to start speaking for the Developers, in case I'm interpreting things wrong. If they have time or the desire they can comment.

Generally speaking nerfs are borne out of complaints from a PvP perspective. On Alert happened because Champions wanted a breath of fresh air but with that breath came sweeping crushes to the Crowd Control system which were repeatedly asked for by PvPers and even some PvE players. Something which I will never get over, because it directly impacted the way I wanted to play and I am against using quick and dirty CC to feel like a crowd controller.

Unfortunately nerfs to the Crowd Control system were actually unnecessary it was a select few instances where some powers/advantages were working too well/players didn't want to use mechanics in place to combat this so asked for a nerf.

When the nerf came? Even those asking for the nerfs went "Damn, that was a bit heavy."

I went from being a threatening Mind AT in PvP (before On Alert) with my "Ego Storm of CC Doom" to a MUCH less threatening "Ego Storm of Bye Felicia". I adjusted my powers and stopped participating in PvP and just dealt with it.


The same thing is happening again but this time with INT/CDR with the release of Champions Online: Super Villain Onslaught.

AoPM with single statting INT should put you around 800 INT or perhaps a little higher 804 INT and combined with cooldown gear the 29 seconds you have on your ADs will likely double so for the most part you'll still be fine with AD cycling because you've invested so much into INT.

As for if this was intended? Of course not. Look at the base cooldowns of those powers and what they do, from a perspective of how power X was built, Active Offensives and Active Defensives are meant to give a potent yet short duration burst to offensive capability or survival.

They were obviously not intended to be cycled constantly to provide silly amounts of resistance to incoming damage.

The fact that INT was so potent and so widely used (and still will be) and this fix, states that INT was "too valuable" and was generally taken in place of other stats.

Were stats ever intended to be single statted? I don't think they were but just as you have pushed INT to 600 and added AoPM, I pushed END to over 720 and paired it with an electric build with Electric Form and now I cannot run out of energy. Ever. Unless an NPC drains it from me.

Is that intended? Probably not. Since energy builders are still a thing we have to pick up.

christomsky1 wrote: »

Frankly, the way INT is now seems appropriate to me. If the only way to win a fight was to have a ton of Strength and Con, and basically Hulk out, than what does that say for the players who want to play a Super Intelligent Character? Sure its harder to make a decent build heavily relying on INT, but that's what makes it fun when you do and it works. But now I feel like I'm being punished for trying to be clever. And hey, saying that the brute force muscle-headed characters would be more effective with some more Intelligence, seems accurate to me.

Welcome to my world. I am punished for not wanting to use DPS/Healing/Tanking style characters as a crowd controller. Because I refuse to use quick and dirty CC to get the job done, I am of less effectiveness in team content. Because NPC AI is not made with CC in mind, I am less effective in higher level content. Since I refuse to change the way I play my main or add in AoPM to "make it all better", I simply solo anything I can, at my own pace and I despise teaming up when playing as her.

If I wanted to be "as effective as everyone else" in terms of DPS or Healing or even tanking, yeah, I know what to do but that's not what I want out of that character so I just deal. Not saying it is fair, I'm just stating the facts.

Anyway back to INT and CDR. Intelligence has several qualities that make it a "prime stat" and in a large way, this hasn't changed. But some players were able to mix X/CON/INT with CDR gear and AoPM to achieve incredible results in terms of AD cycling and damage. This...really wasn't intended and honestly this change was a long time coming.

Frankly, content in CO does not really, truly require AD Cycling or crazy cooldowns to participate in.

christomsky1 wrote: »

Ultimately I guess my point is that Cooldown is just another part of the game that people can build for and break like healing or holds or critical chance and severity, or defense and HP. Any of those can be pushed to ridiculous limits, its just a matter of how you choose to paly the game. Are we going to see PvPers complaining about the 1 to 1 ratio of Knock strength on Ego and Strength next because they're tired of getting ringed out in duels from Haymakers and Force Cascades? Because that's just another mechanic in the game that some people choose to build for. I guess I just hate being told that the way I chose to play is suddenly 'broken' to this extent? AD cycling isn't the end-all be-all of builds or PvPing.

I would just really like an explanation why this is happening.

You can't really break holds. You can break stuns though but that's about it and that's more down to how stuns are designed and how they interact with Manipulator than anything else.

If you want to know what will be complained about next, just wait and see.

AD Cycling was silly. I do agree that we as players should be rewarded for investing, so if you haven't done so already, check your characters onto the PTS and check the cooldowns you'll have and try to play with them on LIVE with those values in mind, that's what I do.

purin1

christomsky1 wrote: »

That's the point I'm trying to make. I can see why some people are up in arms about being able to cycle ADs and AOs, but if they really are THAT big a problem then adjust the cooldowns on those and the couple other powers being abused, don't throw a monkey wrench at the whole system.

And besides, as an AD cycler, I still get beat time to time THROUGH my AD's. They're not a perfect defense like everyone thinks they are, they're just another thing ya gotta learn to paly around. Most people have a gap between the ADs even when they're vulnerable. Its just strategy.

Actives aren't the only problem. Powers that have cooldowns as a whole are a problem when combined with the amount of cooldown reduction one can achieve without much investment.

Everyone has adjusted to AD cycling in PvP anyway. The problem is that you can do it alongside extremely high defense like I said before. It's not so much strategy as having to play around BS mechanics.​​

quasimojo1

pantagruel01 wrote: »

quasimojo1 wrote: »

This nerf does not just target the outlier builds that do 8K DPS. It reduces the effectiveness of all builds that rely on powers with cooldowns

Yes, it's possible to make a build that uses heavy cooldowns that isn't very effective, but you can't do balancing based on "people can choose to nerf themselves".

So you don't think it's possible for balancing changes to more specifically target problematic outliers? I guess I will just have to respectfully and vehemently disagree (and lol).

theravenforce

quasimojo1 wrote: »

So you don't think it's possible for balancing changes to more specifically target problematic outliers? I guess I will just have to respectfully and vehemently disagree (and lol).

I'd prefer if this change was taken on a case by case basis, but there's a good number of powers with CD's in Champions Online and I don't think there are any intentions to make reductions to this change.

Until we get notes saying "Intelligence and Cooldown Reduction gear adjustments have been lessened by X%" I'll be preparing myself to play differently on LIVE.

Also, thinking about it, it's likely that the more INT/CDR you've got the more you'll notice the change.

cogswell

theravenforce wrote: »

AoPM with single statting INT should put you around 800 INT or perhaps a little higher 804 INT and combined with cooldown gear the 29 seconds you have on your ADs will likely double so for the most part you'll still be fine with AD cycling because you've invested so much into INT.

I have checked my build on PTS and with AOPM getting my INT up to 804 I actually had 26 second cooldown on my ADs on Live. I've been told by friends that they've gotten them down to 25 using AoAC. But on PTS it got an extra 30 seconds tagged on meaning even with all my gear and INT boosting, it takes 56 second to cooldown on a power that last 15 seconds. Its impossible now. I know it wasn't intended to work this way, but I feel like pulling the carpet out from underneath us this far in is a bad move.

I'm just concerned that with the PvP crowd dictating whats fair and balanced, they're slowly killing everything in the game that makes the playstyles unique until everyones forced to use the same boring build because itll be the only thing worth playing.

cogswell

"purin1 wrote: »

Actives aren't the only problem. Powers that have cooldowns as a whole are a problem when combined with the amount of cooldown reduction one can achieve without much investment.

Everyone has adjusted to AD cycling in PvP anyway. The problem is that you can do it alongside extremely high defense like I said before. It's not so much strategy as having to play around BS mechanics.​​

I guess my problem is that I don't see where the problem is. Why do the PvPers get to dictate complaints over what gets nerfed or not? Like ravenforce said, they already got their way screwing over the way CC works. I'm just noticing a trend that's inevitably going to lead to them bastardizing the entire games mechanics to their own biased playstyles.

theravenforce

christomsky1 wrote: »

I have checked my build on PTS and with AOPM getting my INT up to 804 I actually had 26 second cooldown on my ADs on Live. I've been told by friends that they've gotten them down to 25 using AoAC. But on PTS it got an extra 30 seconds tagged on meaning even with all my gear and INT boosting, it takes 56 second to cooldown on a power that last 15 seconds. Its impossible now. I know it wasn't intended to work this way, but I feel like pulling the carpet out from underneath us this far in is a bad move.

I'm just concerned that with the PvP crowd dictating whats fair and balanced, they're slowly killing everything in the game that makes the playstyles unique until everyones forced to use the same boring build because itll be the only thing worth playing.

Granted, I haven't invested into INT that much, but I still would take 56 seconds over 90 seconds any day.

The problem with adjustments like this is that in reality, gearing additions should be closely and intensely tested before being released into the player base, because things like this happen. It's an unfortunate reality of the game that things players get used to get nerfed/adjusted and it impacts how things usually flow.

Problems like this should be caught quickly and early to avoid mass flaming, as there will likely be when this hits LIVE. Unfortunately, I think there was only time to get round to this more or less around this time than earlier.

cogswell

theravenforce wrote: »

Granted, I haven't invested into INT that much, but I still would take 56 seconds over 90 seconds any day.

The problem with adjustments like this is that in reality, gearing additions should be closely and intensely tested before being released into the player base, because things like this happen. It's an unfortunate reality of the game that things players get used to get nerfed/adjusted and it impacts how things usually flow.

Problems like this should be caught quickly and early to avoid mass flaming, as there will likely be when this hits LIVE. Unfortunately, I think there was only time to get round to this more or less around this time than earlier.

Still, its just depressing when this happens. Players like me get so heavily invested in their characters and builds and then have them seemingly thoughtlessly destroyed by something so major as this? I won't be surprised if plenty of players just, stop playing after this. Hell, I'm almost considering it myself.

kaiserin

theravenforce wrote: »

Generally speaking nerfs are borne out of complaints from a PvP perspective.

This is false. There were some PvP-centric nerfs back in the wee early days of the game, but this has not been true for a very long time. PvPers do have a knack for finding out what overpowered because it's in the very nature of competition to find out what's effective. However, that is not the same thing as a PvP specific nerf.​​

purin1

christomsky1 wrote: »

I guess my problem is that I don't see where the problem is. Why do the PvPers get to dictate complaints over what gets nerfed or not? Like ravenforce said, they already got their way screwing over the way CC works. I'm just noticing a trend that's inevitably going to lead to them bastardizing the entire games mechanics to their own biased playstyles.

Whether the PvPers are influencing this or not, it is still a problem that both they and PvEers abuse to no end, and have gotten so used to it that they feel like it is "normal" for the game.

christomsky1 wrote: »

Still, its just depressing when this happens. Players like me get so heavily invested in their characters and builds and then have them seemingly thoughtlessly destroyed by something so major as this? I won't be surprised if plenty of players just, stop playing after this. Hell, I'm almost considering it myself.

People were saying the same thing 2 years ago for the dodge nerfs, yet here we are with dodge not being useless like people were claiming. When something is so strong that it gets to the point of being the best way to build without having any consequences elsewhere, it's probably calling for a nerf down the line.​​

pantagruel01

quasimojo1 wrote: »

So you don't think it's possible for balancing changes to more specifically target problematic outliers?

It's impossible to make powers that are appropriate at base cooldown that aren't overpowered at 1/3 normal cooldown, or appropriate at 1/3 normal cooldown that aren't worthless at base cooldown. Now, after nerfing CDR it might be that there are some powers that should be tuned up, but you really have to deal with CDR first.

theravenforce

christomsky1 wrote: »

I guess my problem is that I don't see where the problem is. Why do the PvPers get to dictate complaints over what gets nerfed or not? Like ravenforce said, they already got their way screwing over the way CC works. I'm just noticing a trend that's inevitably going to lead to them bastardizing the entire games mechanics to their own biased playstyles.

The problem in most cases is that there are powers in CO which are incredibly potent in terms of damage. This is fine as long as it is tempered by decent CD's. Right now though players are able to combine (as purin said) high damage, high CD and high survival.

High Damage and High Survival both stem from cooldown modifiers.

If the cooldown modifiers are overperforming and producing unintended side effects (like insane cooldowns) which lead to secondary unintended side effects then attacking the root cause is what is done.

In comparison to Crowd Control...players simply didn't want to use the mechanics in place to counter CC and in addition to this, an advantage which was powerful and a maintained paralyze which was powerful were frequently used by PvPers. Back then, some PvP builds were more "telepathic" and "magical" than they are now

PvPers do have an impact on powers, but as Purin has said, so do PvE players.

If Player X can take AoPM w/ Conc and Stats X/X/X and can solo Therakiel's Temple in under 10 minutes without using a warping crystal by using Powers 1-7 from Force, Munitions, Telepathy and Power Armor. Where does the problem lie?

I'd say the powers they've picked or the way they've built was incredibly potent and as a result those powers need to be looked at. And when powers are "looked at" sometimes they are nerfed, and when a power is nerfed it affects everyone who uses it, not just Player X.

kaizerin wrote: »

This is false.​​

Alright, perhaps blaming PvP for the majority of nerfs is OTT.

But if Crowd Control was not nerfed because of how it was used in PvP, I'd love to know why exactly Crowd Control was nerfed as it was per On Alert. Being able to lockdown five targets in melee range for a refreshable yet limited duration was not trivializing content nor disrupting balance.

CC already never worked on higher level targets so the only reason it was altered was because Developers were convinced by some players that CC was over performing, with specific focus on Maintained Paralyzes, which is why Incapacitates came about and then Manipulator Form was introduced to try and soften the blow.

flowcyto

pantagruel01 wrote: »

quasimojo1 wrote: »

So you don't think it's possible for balancing changes to more specifically target problematic outliers?

It's impossible to make powers that are appropriate at base cooldown that aren't overpowered at 1/3 normal cooldown, or appropriate at 1/3 normal cooldown that aren't worthless at base cooldown. Now, after nerfing CDR it might be that there are some powers that should be tuned up, but you really have to deal with CDR first.

I have to agree w/ this. To me, the CDR/Int nerf is fine if further balancing changes are coming that are more precise. But ofc I and everyone here have doubts to that (many for good reason), and I think that's the core of the issue.

Like, to me Archery is not really cd dependant for anything but some extra AoE cd- ya dun need Storm or Torrent or Gas arrows for a decent Archery dps build- esp when Explosive w/ WtK and Snap Shot won't be affected by these changes.

Gadgeteering already has great no-cd attacks (PBR, Exp Blaster w/ DR, RThrow), so the cd nerf is mostly hitting (a) SR's power (which I think most can agree was a bit over the line), and (b) some misc CC/utility powers. Many of those powers were already weak or too niche, though. Making sure a Gadgeteering support can still feasibly, say, keep Mini Drive up most of the time I think would be a fine thing to compensate for the tree, but for dps I dun see it being too crippled (well, aside from builds using SR heavily- but most of those are frakenbuilds and not true Gadgeteering builds anyways).

TP DoT builds also prob need some compensation- not for Mental Storm, but for stuff like SoD and ML. Otherwise the issues aren't really cd related as much as general PvE CC related, and w/ stuff like MotM being a trainwreck w/ or w/o a good cd.

To me, the cd change is mostly keeping AD/AO cycling in line, and making it so cherry-picking the best tack-on powers isn't far out-doing any other type of build. I have no love lost for those sort of builds; would rather make sure the nerf isn't too damaging for concept or theme builds that stay w/in one or a few powersets on principle.

mrhinkypunk

The reason people end up blaming PvP for nerfs is because PvP is generally the hardest thing you can do in the game. Versing another player who constantly is trying to become better than you and outsmart you with whatever they are using ends up finding all the biggest issues with balance. The more competition that ends up being in PvP (for example an "SG war" going on) the more the meta is refined, breaking numbers more and more.

Because the PvE content isn't hard enough there simply isn't any point in doing this, you don't have any true challenges where things get harder and play harder against you as you try to put out the bigger numbers while still not dying, there's no counter plays. Now I'm not gonna say something such as "well we should make npc's harder" although I think it'd be a good thing to do it would be a very time consuming thing to do for the devs. Anyway because there isn't anything hard enough to keep on pushing you and pushing you to build stronger and stronger you may not end up refining things so much. Because you don't push the numbers to the limit you don't break things so much and / or don't really notice it or appreciate how stupid things can be when you break numbers.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at here is that in many ways PvP can be a very good reflection of PvE if it was that much harder. If mobs in solo gameplay in CO hit you so hard that taking on one too many may kill you then you could take ego sleep and single target them down one by one.

This change has needed to happen for so long now it's crazy that it's only just happening, it certainly isn't a change that was because PvP'ers were crying nerf... The cooldown nerf was supposed to be done around the time of the dodge nerf, at this point "AD cycling" wasn't even a thing because unbreakable hadn't been buffed yet.

I'd just like to point out my new build post nerf that I'm using personally has a lot more int stacked than before, if int wasn't nerfed but gear was we would see int being crazily OP and a must have stat for any min / maxed player. In my eyes int would still be a great stat even without the CDR.

flowcyto

I'd just like to point out my new build post nerf that I'm using personally has a lot more int stacked than before, if int wasn't nerfed but gear was we would see int being crazily OP and a must have stat for any min / maxed player. In my eyes int would still be a great stat even without the CDR.

Yeah, Int interacts w/ many other things as is. It's still prob gonna be a good stat, if only for those interactions and Int PSS's benefits. Other stats (aside from Con and technically End) have to put up w/ a harsh DR in some manner. Ego/Str/Pres = passive dmg/heal bonuses soft-cap at 70. Dex = shared crit rating DR- which is harsher after the dodge changes. Rec = too much energy capping if stacked too high. End.. well even if it doesn't really 'cap', at some point (usually not a high one for most builds) ya have more max energy than ya really need and are wasting stat points.

purin1

mrhinkypunk wrote: »

I'd just like to point out my new build post nerf that I'm using personally has a lot more int stacked than before, if int wasn't nerfed but gear was we would see int being crazily OP and a must have stat for any min / maxed player. In my eyes int would still be a great stat even without the CDR.

Gonna chime in and say the same. I'm running nearly twice the INT I have on live for the build I'm planning on using if nothing else is changed. It still gives the best energy management in the game as far as I'm concerned, which is strong in itself.​​

sanguineviper

Blanket nerf instead of the precision nerf that's actually needed to fix what CDR is making the most broken, seems to be the case.

If you're after AO/AD cycling, why not let up a bit on the CDR per point nerf? Instead, either increase the cooldowns on those powers specifically, or add a new flag to them that only allows players to choose a single active offense, and a single active defense, just like what was done to energy unlocks years ago.

(I'd prefer the latter, honestly. The game's already dirt easy, no one legitimately needs two ADs or AOs.)

Unless I'm wrong in thinking this is what we're trying to fix... And you're actually worried about the like, two people using sigils. Or powers that already have the ~5 second CDs that currently on live can be brought down to like, maybe 2.5 seconds at best.

Oh, strafing run, right... Just give that a 2 minute CD and make it the new gadget ultimate power and put it in a lockbox.

pantagruel01

sanguineviper wrote: »

Blanket nerf instead of the precision nerf that's actually needed to fix what CDR is making the most broken, seems to be the case.

There are three categories of powers with cooldowns:

1. Powers that are overpowered at 1/3 of their designed cooldowns.
2. Powers that are underpowered at their designed cooldowns.
3. Powers where cooldown is mostly irrelevant because there's some other limit on their duration.

A power can be in both category 1 and 2; things in category 3 are usually non-stacking buffs, debuffs, or pets, where the duration of the effect is longer than the cooldown anyway. A blanket nerf is what's required, though it would be nice to follow it up with a pass to fix powers in category (2).

sanguineviper

pantagruel01 wrote: »

There are three categories of powers with cooldowns:

1. Powers that are overpowered at 1/3 of their designed cooldowns.
2. Powers that are underpowered at their designed cooldowns.
3. Powers where cooldown is mostly irrelevant because there's some other limit on their duration.

A power can be in both category 1 and 2; things in category 3 are usually non-stacking buffs, debuffs, or pets, where the duration of the effect is longer than the cooldown anyway. A blanket nerf is what's required, though it would be nice to follow it up with a pass to fix powers in category (2).

But will there be a pass? The last "pass" I remember was them gutting TK blades and making one of my favorite characters to play nearly the most useless melee set in the game. (Stamping out any remaining interest I had in PvP along with it.)

I doubt there will be a pass. Or any sort of precision changes across multiple powers. I was just theorizing what Crush, or whomever was trying to achieve with this on the short term.

Myself, never relied on cycling or CDR to begin with because it's entirely unnecessary with the game being as easy as it has been since F2p, let alone On alert... So either way, none of this affects me at all.

quasimojo1

pantagruel01 wrote: »

sanguineviper wrote: »

Blanket nerf instead of the precision nerf that's actually needed to fix what CDR is making the most broken, seems to be the case.

There are three categories of powers with cooldowns:

1. Powers that are overpowered at 1/3 of their designed cooldowns.
2. Powers that are underpowered at their designed cooldowns.
3. Powers where cooldown is mostly irrelevant because there's some other limit on their duration.

A power can be in both category 1 and 2; things in category 3 are usually non-stacking buffs, debuffs, or pets, where the duration of the effect is longer than the cooldown anyway. A blanket nerf is what's required, though it would be nice to follow it up with a pass to fix powers in category (2).

Or, if enumerated slightly more concretely:

1.) Active Offenses/Active Defenses and the 2 or 3 other cooldown attack powers that are cherry-picked because of their OP-ness (e.g. Mental Storm, Strafing Run)
2.) All of the other cooldown powers

So why not just focus the nerfbat on category 1 and not unnecessarily punish a lot of undeserving builds?

Disclaimer: I haven't been very active as a player for almost a year now, so maybe category 1 has an additional power or two. But this is what I remember from the DPS analysis stats I did on Gravitar log parses last year.

pantagruel01

quasimojo1 wrote: »

So why not just focus the nerfbat on category 1 and not unnecessarily punish a lot of undeserving builds?

So you want to make sure those powers are useless for anyone who doesn't stack tons of CDR? The point is, a power with a cooldown should be useful even if you don't stack a zillion points of cooldown reduction, and if you make it useful without mass CDR, you've got a broken power when someone does have a lot of CDR.

You can't possibly balance powers unless you vastly reduce the variation in cooldown, and that means the nerf hammer to cooldown reduction.

quasimojo1

pantagruel01 wrote: »

quasimojo1 wrote: »

So why not just focus the nerfbat on category 1 and not unnecessarily punish a lot of undeserving builds?

So you want to make sure those powers are useless for anyone who doesn't stack tons of CDR? The point is, a power with a cooldown should be useful even if you don't stack a zillion points of cooldown reduction, and if you make it useful without mass CDR, you've got a broken power when someone does have a lot of CDR.

You can't possibly balance powers unless you vastly reduce the variation in cooldown, and that means the nerf hammer to cooldown reduction.

The realistic distribution of CDR for an equipped 40 is not that wide currently; it's probably going to be something like 40-66% (based upon my toons). A 24% range (or even somewhat wider) of power effectiveness based upon CDR is not that big of a deal. You balance for the high end. You already said you don't care about balancing for the low end, and presumably someone on the lower end of CDR is trading it for ability in some other dimension. Just adjust the powers in category 1 so that effectiveness at the high end is reasonable.

pantagruel01

quasimojo1 wrote: »

The realistic distribution of CDR for an equipped 40 is not that wide currently

Of course, because everyone stacks CDR gear, because it's objectively better than the other choices. However, (a) gear shouldn't have false choices like that, and (b) non-40s often don't do that. You're saying powers should only be useful at level 40?

Also, reducing CD from 66% to 40% is a 65% increase in effectiveness.

iamrune

Alright, so let me go on the record [again] and state;


This is how I'd like to see it in an ideal world, it's much stronger on Live, and much weakere on Current PTS

Gear alone = 10%CDR max maybe even less

Int alone = 15-20 % CDR max
and less if some CDR is added to some specific powers, such as say, Quarry.*

min/maxed mega cool down build = 30-45% CDR maybe even 50%
but this is a build with sacrifices made to achieve it, such s Aura of Arcane Clarity

+++++++++++++++++++++

I don't really have a problem with Int + gear setups getting to about 30-33% CDR, but I think we all knew that the 55%+ CDR builds we've been seeing is indeed overpowered. An Int + Gear setup coming up at 25% CDR or less is probably the breakpoint at which a player would feel it's barely worth shooting for, and anything less than 25% is probably a "Build DPS another way that works better, like the simple Str/Con/xxx builds", and that just kills all variation in the game.


I also have no problem with a build that makes sacrifices in power selections to achieve it, having more CDR, as that sacrifice would presumably lower either DPS or survivability in other ways [such as by taking up a passive power slot normally used to buff DPS or toughness, or whatever].

In short, I support a CDR nerf, but not one of this magnitude, and I still feel that the rating needs to be brought in line with the stat, so the stat gives the same amount instead of the gear rating giving 80% more CDR than that stat [ that's just. crazy, really] and instead the stat give a bit more than the gear. The stat is a choice, a selection, after all, and without decent CDR Int is a completely worthless Secondary stat.

Don't all of the stats need to have at least some value either as a Primary or a secondary stat selection?
and isn't the spec tree options on many stats the very reason a stat is mainly good for choosing Prime, but it's basic inherent buffs it's secondary stat use?

And we can't forget that many powers in Gadgettering and Archery need to be looked at, or those power sets need to have a way to get additional CDR through common powers in their respective sets added. [And those common powers should be on the Archetypes featuring those powersets]

pantagruel01

iamrune wrote: »

I don't really have a problem with Int + gear setups getting to about 30-33% CDR

That's about where PTS currently is, getting 60s on an AD/AO with just Int and Gear is perfectly doable.

iamrune

pantagruel01 wrote: »

iamrune wrote: »

I don't really have a problem with Int + gear setups getting to about 30-33% CDR

That's about where PTS currently is, getting 60s on an AD/AO with just Int and Gear is perfectly doable.

And what if it's just secondary Int?

pantagruel01

iamrune wrote: »

And what if it's just secondary Int?

Depends on stat points spent? There are no int specializations that grant CDR (there's one that reduces CD in other ways).​​