[PvP] GF Overpowered

x1101011x · May 2015

GFs currently have far too much in their favor:

Massive damage.
A ton of CCs -- they can stunlock you as they burst you down in 5 encounters (3 stacks of Griffon's Wrath).
Large health pool and high damage resistance.
At will cc immunity -- they can block many times, stopping an effectively unlimited number of crowd controls, whereas other characters are forced to use over 25% of their stamina at a time.

You may think that GFs deserve a boost because they're melee, but half their abilities are distance-closers.

Lunging Strike:

Absurd range.
Incredibly low cooldown.
Very high damage.

Bull Charge:

Knocks target prone.
Very high damage.

GF has

Greater damage.
Greater survivability.
Greater mobility.
Greater control.
Equal cc immunity, but at-will instead of when unstoppable is available.

What's the point of rolling a GWF if a GF is better at every single thing? The only thing GFs are missing is (substantial) healing and stealth.

GF definitely needed to be able to do more damage before mod 6, but they have to give something up, not just get everything.

rversant · May 2015

x1101011x wrote: »

GFs currently have far too much in their favor:
Massive damage.

A ton of CCs -- they can stunlock you as they burst you down in 5 encounters (3 stacks of Griffon's Wrath).

Large health pool and high damage resistance.

At will cc immunity -- they can block many times, stopping an effectively unlimited number of crowd controls, whereas other characters are forced to use over 25% of their stamina at a time.

You may think that GFs deserve a boost because they're melee, but half their abilities are distance-closers.

Lunging Strike:
Absurd range.

Incredibly low cooldown.

Very high damage.

Bull Charge:
Knocks target prone.

Very high damage.

GF has
Greater damage.

Greater survivability.

Greater mobility.

Greater control.

Equal cc immunity, but at-will instead of when unstoppable is available.

What's the point of rolling a GWF if a GF is better at every single thing? The only thing GFs are missing is (substantial) healing and stealth.

GF definitely needed to be able to do more damage before mod 6, but they have to give something up, not just get everything.

Personally I think an easy rule to combat classes having crazy op dmg and CC at the same time. if too have a general rule that Skills with HARD CC (prone/stun/daze) always have lower base damage than skills without CC or soft CC (Slows.).

GF got a LOT of damage buffs in the recent module, while still having extremely high survivability compared to other classes, running tests a GF with 7k powers base Flourish, more than a GWF with 14k power before building his stacks. With targetlock its pretty much GG in a 1v1 situation as they can always be guarding you and deal enough damage to one rotation. While paladins are just as Tanky / Tankier and have that huge damage daily. at least that their only real source of damage In PvP, while a GF can pop rotation, chill back and guard, then pop rotation. etc. It'd be nice if GWF got lunging strike / bull charge, as GWF has no prone other than daily, and a big part of fighters is the ability to prone.

hawkeyel · May 2015

x1101011x wrote: »

GFs currently have far too much in their favor:
Massive damage.

A ton of CCs -- they can stunlock you as they burst you down in 5 encounters (3 stacks of Griffon's Wrath).

Large health pool and high damage resistance.

At will cc immunity -- they can block many times, stopping an effectively unlimited number of crowd controls, whereas other characters are forced to use over 25% of their stamina at a time.

You may think that GFs deserve a boost because they're melee, but half their abilities are distance-closers.

Lunging Strike:
Absurd range.

Incredibly low cooldown.

Very high damage.

Bull Charge:
Knocks target prone.

Very high damage.

GF has
Greater damage.

Greater survivability.

Greater mobility.

Greater control.

Equal cc immunity, but at-will instead of when unstoppable is available.

What's the point of rolling a GWF if a GF is better at every single thing? The only thing GFs are missing is (substantial) healing and stealth.

GF definitely needed to be able to do more damage before mod 6, but they have to give something up, not just get everything.

Rather sure the mods on this site will give you this answer."Nerf this class" threads are not considered productive discussion, per rule 3.15 of the RoC.

discorice · May 2015

What class do you play? Can you give an example of what "very high damage" is in comparison with other classes, cite the item levels of the people apparently roflstomping you, give your own hit point and defensive ratings, and list your enchants and theirs?

Also, can you tell me where you've seen a GF that does higher damage than, or outmaneuvers a GWF?

I'll concede that GF's are capable of a couple of rapid-succession strong spike encounters (if you're using Knight's challenge, which also leaves a GF pretty vulnerable), but it's not like our at-wills are gonna take a GWF down. GWF at-wills, other other hand... Yeesh. There is no class in the game currently that can outscore a well-geared Destroyer GWF damage wise, and especially not a GF. Not even the most offense oriented conqueror/swordmaster will approach what a well geared destroyer GWF is capable of offensively.

rversant · May 2015

discorice wrote: »

What class do you play? Can you give an example of what "very high damage" is in comparison with other classes, cite the item levels of the people apparently roflstomping you, give your own hit point and defensive ratings, and list your enchants and theirs?

Also, can you tell me where you've seen a GF does higher damage than, or outmaneuvers, a GWF?

I'll concede that GF's are capable of a couple of rapid-succession strong spike encounters (if you're using Knight's challenge, which also leaves a GF pretty vulnerable), but it's not like our at-wills are gonna take a GWF down. GWF at-wills, other other hand... Yeesh. There is no class in the game currently that can outscore a well-geared Destroyer GWF damage wise, and especially not a GF. Not even the most offense oriented conqueror/swordmaster will approach what a well geared destroyer GWF is capable of offensively.

Outscore? are you talking about PvE paingiver? his post title mentions PvP.

While a GWF has far higher sustained damage in general (Vs targets who dont have 80% DR lol) a GF's Burst is far superior in both ability to land it (prone in hit, + 2 lunges is needed) and Damage (Doesn't need stacks to build up to deal decent damage) I think that's what the OP is talking about.

I totally agree that in PvE a GF does less damage than a CW/TR/GWF/SW/HR . But In PvP, Where burst damage is very powerful and useful (especially since negation is one of the primary enchants, which gets BETTER the more the target is hit) Especially at high gear levels, GF definitely has a lot of damage potential while still being very tanky.

discorice · May 2015

Maybe I should've used the term "out-damage" instead of "out-score". I was not referring specifically to PvE paingiver. Yes, in PvE GF's and GWF's are at the opposite end of the damage spectrum. One class is really good at some things, another class is really good at other things. I don't expect my rogue's thrown daggers to match my archers arrows, and I don't expect my DPS GWF build to be able to take the same kind of punishment a tank class can. Burst damage is really the only kind of direct damage a GF can lay down, and they can't really even do THAT on a team. You got at-wills and reflect damage, plus your defensive buffs and party buffs. Lunging strike and Bull Charge are not especially helpful in team PvE, as they're slow to queue up, but handy in PvP when you've got everything lined up for a solid rotation of "eat this". GWF's are PvE Lawnmowers who also do pretty d4mned well in PvP. Sometimes GF's are a problem for them in PvP, and that does actually make sense, given that most things GWF's can't utterly destroy in seconds can be problematic.

It sounds like you maybe think your GWF should be able to crush anything with little to no resistance, and for the most part, you can. Calling for nerfs here just looks greedy.

rversant · May 2015

discorice wrote: »

Maybe I should've used the term "out-damage" instead of "out-score". I was not referring specifically to PvE paingiver. Yes, in PvE GF's and GWF's are at the opposite end of the damage spectrum. One class is really good at some things, another class is really good at other things. I don't expect my rogue's thrown daggers to match my archers arrows, and I don't expect my DPS GWF build to be able to take the same kind of punishment a tank class can. Burst damage is really the only kind of direct damage a GF can lay down, and they can't really even do THAT on a team. You got at-wills and reflect damage, plus your defensive buffs and party buffs. Lunging strike and Bull Charge are not especially helpful in team PvP, as they're slow to queue up, but handy in PvP when you've got everything lined up for a solid rotation of "eat this". GWF's are PvE Lawnmowers who also do pretty d4mned well in PvP. Sometimes GF's are a problem for them in PvP, and that does actually make sense, given that most things GWF's can't utterly destroy in seconds can be problematic.

It sounds like you maybe think your GWF should be able to crush anything with little to no resistance, and for the most part, you can. Calling for nerfs here just makes you look greedy.

I definitely dont feel that my GWF should be able to crush everything with ease. I totally understand that a tank should be able to "tank" damage from a "dps" I was merely stating the difference in the classes effectiveness in PvP.

GWF can deal awesome sustained damage, but rarely is a fight "sustained" in PvP, its usually burst rotation, dodge around for encounters, etc, Remember that in order for a DESTROYER SPEC GWF (the only one that deals actual damage) to get that high damage, they must build 3 Destroyer stacks (25% chance for 1 per hit if not hitting an aoe), 10 unstoppable stacks (requires you too lose a chunk of your HP to start building), 5 weaponmaster stacks (requires you too land hits) and continue to stay hitting the target during all this or else they may lose the stacks and have too start all over again.

I'm not trying too say NERF GF BUFF GWF, definitely not, just pointing out what I assume the OP feels and meant by his post. To be honest what I really don't like is how much Free "DR" certain classes can get over others that are actually meant to be tanky/ take damage too deal damage. such as a CW with shield+negation being basically an omnipotent god of immortality. It's annoying that when I 1v1 with one of my friends Gf's he can just target lock and hold up shield (lol I managed to get him once with a WMS stun that popped though, then he learnt to keep moving) then close range charge / cres / anvil for 50-100% of my hp, but I feel thats more due to Gwf requiring unstoppable to actually be tanky than crazy OP damage. and as soon as they pop unstoppable, the GF can just raise shield. In that sense GF counters GWF well.

I don't expect my rogue's thrown daggers to match my archers arrows

Also just for Balance lulz. A CoS spamming sab rogue actually can/does do more damage than an archer spec HR. Lol :P At least mine does and she isn't even that geared.

discorice · May 2015

You make a good point about destroyers having to sort of wind up to optimal output. I'd forgotten about all the stack building. For all of mod 5 I was trying to make a Sentinel build work. Hehe. Heh. *Sigh...

My main is an archer spec Stormwarden, who was a killer at 19.7k GS in mod 5, but took a giant (s)hit in mod 6. I'm currently running corrupted elemental black ice gear, so nowhere near "BiS" at this point. In fact if I remember correctly, her item level is around 2300. Not a PvP toon at all, but her dps is.. well, I have no complaints. Between Rain of Arrows, Thorn Ward, Cordon of Arrows and spamming Split or Rapid Shot with decent crit and a perfect vorpal, speaking strictly for ranged powers, I'd be pretty curious to see how her overall damage stacks up against a ranged rogue build, and naturally more than a little sad if it didn't cut the mustard, so to speak.

But even if I out damaged that rogue at range (and I believe that toon definitely could depending of course on the build quality, item level, and skill of the player), the rogue probably has survivability on my HR, definitely has Stealth, and killer melee damage (even on a primarily ranged build) to back it up at close range. I guess what I'm saying is I'm fully aware that Archery Stormwardens aren't exactly the baddest class around, but they do have their strengths, first and foremost being ranged AoE damage.

ryoshinette · May 2015

i believe, that author of this thread is not playing GF.
Try to stand agains TR, who is invisible, incatchable and hits you by 20% dmg once per 2 seconds.
Try to stand CW, who CC you all the time, and repel you to the opposite corner of map.
Try to stand good gwf, whos hp is increasing instead of decreasing while hitting him
Or try to kill good DC or immortal OP, not mention perma roots HR.

Yes, GF get a dmg boost, but after 2 years of being useless now, from time to time, can beat hard.

ps. Yesterday I was on GG pvp. 2 CW pushed me from point to point 2-4 on repel. So far, that they were not able to catch me with their distance attacks.

ravenan · May 2015

If you have problem with GF as GWF theres something wrong with you. GWFS are beasts and tanky as hell. They can destroy half a team alone, got spike dmg taking 2/3 hp pool from encounter when stacked. I know, I got one and hes my second. Are we speaking about lvl 70 or 60-69? Theres a huge diference.

Buy negation.

You wrote pretty silly thigs in first post. I point only agravaiting strike which i think is your cc immune atwill..... Maaaaaan you should destroy him if he used it

figure out why...

rversant · May 2015

discorice wrote: »

You make a good point about destroyers having to sort of wind up to optimal output. I'd forgotten about all the stack building. For all of mod 5 I was trying to make a Sentinel build work. Hehe. Heh. *Sigh...

My main is an archer spec Stormwarden, who was a killer at 19.7k GS in mod 5, but took a giant (s)hit in mod 6. I'm currently running corrupted elemental black ice gear, so nowhere near "BiS" at this point. In fact if I remember correctly, her item level is around 2300. Not a PvP toon at all, but her dps is.. well, I have no complaints. Between Rain of Arrows, Thorn Ward, Cordon of Arrows and spamming Split or Rapid Shot with decent crit and a perfect vorpal, speaking strictly for ranged powers, I'd be pretty curious to see how her overall damage stacks up against a ranged rogue build, and naturally more than a little sad if it didn't cut the mustard, so to speak.

But even if I out damaged that rogue at range (and I believe that toon definitely could depending of course on the build quality, item level, and skill of the player), the rogue probably has survivability on my HR, definitely has Stealth, and killer melee damage (even on a primarily ranged build) to back it up at close range. I guess what I'm saying is I'm fully aware that Archery Stormwardens aren't exactly the baddest class around, but they do have their strengths, first and foremost being ranged AoE damage.

I guess Archer HR is more of an AoE PvE spec, while Knife rogue is single target PvP. so its hard to compare. While Archer will outperform in PvE. The rogue will probably outperform in PvP. I Havent seen many archer HR's though. cool too see one who loves the spec.

ravenan · May 2015

BI set..... less than 50k hp.....

rversant · May 2015

ravenan wrote: »

BI set..... less than 50k hp.....

Thats the HR who I was discussing stuff with, not the OP who hasnt posted again yet.

Also just to put it out there, if the GF knows about target lock, a GWF cant do Too much to a GF. even if hes got negation to help mitigate some damage. if the GF opens with Lunge, and crits. that can take 50% of their hp right away (as negation hasn't started to build stacks yet). then when GWF pops unstoppable (remember, fight just started so he doesnt have the ~140% extra damage from stacks and daggers). GF uses shield. when unstop ends. another lunge and Anvil for the finish. dont even need to use flourish there. I can kill some GF if they are bad. but equal gear and equal skill. if they know what target lock is. I have to get extremely lucky to shift dodge their lunge and land a stun / cres before they can raise guard. if they are like that, I find it better to ignore them or kite them away and let a TR or CW deal with them while I swap to the squishes and become a lawnmower.

ravenan · May 2015

rversant wrote: »

if the GF opens with Lunge, and crits. that can take 50% of their hp right away.

What???? Logs please

PS ho many tenacity you have?

ryoshinette · May 2015

Raven, I think we are talking with blue item mate.

rversant · May 2015

ravenan wrote: »

What???? Logs please

PS ho many tenacity you have?

Ill try to get one next time I see my guild GF on, not sure if hes as geared as the other one but worth a shot.

and wearing 2 piece burning set, ~1600 tenacity.

ravenan · May 2015

So you are undergeared with low tenacity (i have 2,6k). You must be scared of 20k LS crit (its not 50%)... Did you ever met geared GWF? You would be oneshoted by IBS + Wheel.

lewel555 · May 2015

x1101011x wrote: »

they can block many times

Believe it or not, the block actually used to be much better. It used to protect from attacks coming from any direction. Now the GF has to more or less face the opponent.
GF is not that good. It is much much better than the GWF, yes. But well, any class is. I remember pvp-ing with my GF, being at base, seeing a red guy approaching and hoping it would be a GWF. It was long ago, there are no more GWFs in pvp nowadays, which by ricochet makes the GF rarer too. Kill the little fishs, and the sharks will die as well.

ravenan · May 2015

lewel555 wrote: »

GF is not that good. It is much much better than the GWF, yes.

BS. Do we play the same game? Clueless ppl.....

rversant · May 2015

ravenan wrote: »

So you are undergeared with low tenacity (i have 2,6k). You must be scared of 20k LS crit (its not 50%)... Did you ever met geared GWF? You would be oneshoted by IBS.

what is your damage reduction from tenacity?

over 3000 ilvl. all enchants 8-10. 2 mythic artifacts 2 epic above 80, Trans weapon enchant and G negation in armor. I'm not in the top tier, but I'm not undergeared either. considering you see people enter PvP without any pvp gear i'd say i'm well geared enough and I do usually go positive in the majority of my games, wins or losses, I get 38% reductions, and 76% arpen resist. on top of my normal dr

that was an example from a few fights I had with some dude a few weeks back, It isnt the norm but it can happen. if the other guy was 4000+ ilvl who knows because we cant even check at the moment. not trying to argue about it, lol.

gfalconio · May 2015

GF no are overpower for me it is fine, i suppose you fight a bis player. if you fight a bis player and you no have same equip is normal you cant defeat him. pls say what class you roll

tantivetyrell · May 2015

I sentence OP to roll a Guardian Fighter, and have him pvp with it.

discorice · May 2015

rversant wrote: »

I guess Archer HR is more of an AoE PvE spec, while Knife rogue is single target PvP. so its hard to compare. While Archer will outperform in PvE. The rogue will probably outperform in PvP. I Havent seen many archer HR's though. cool too see one who loves the spec.

Hehe yeah GF and HR are my two favorite classes. I really liked that with a simple respec you could completely change an HR to fit any non-tank role, although that was more true before mod 6. When I'm not DPS'ing I love filling a tank role, and a GF is the iconic tank. I love that the shield mechanic is so present and engaging in this game, as opposed to being an Armor Class boosting accessory that simply hangs off of one of your arms.

ravenan wrote: »

BI set..... less than 50k hp.....

Elemental Corrupted black ice. lvl 70 version. My Archer's HP is at 65,682 currently. Yes that's low, but I invested more in lifesteal and deflect than raw HP. I also have the greater seldarine set and a perfect barkshield to make up for the relatively low HP. It kind of works, but I could use some better gear. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time for dungeon runs, or enough active friends to run them with a non-PUG team. Heh.

discorice · May 2015

tantivetyrell wrote: »

I sentence OP to roll a Guardian Fighter, and have him pvp with it.

Now that is a novel idea.

klangeddin · May 2015

You forgot about those nuclear rocket launchers that they just installed on our shoulder pads.

x1101011x · May 2015

tantivetyrell wrote: »

I sentence OP to roll a Guardian Fighter, and have him pvp with it.

I *do* play a GF. My three high level characters are DC, CW, and GF. I don't know why you all think I have a GWF; I simply compared the two because they are very similar and even share the same class forum.

I would much rather face a GWF than a GF in PvP. You can just dodge back every time they reach you (or block with a GF). With a GF, every time they reach you, you are stunned.

I know because I can burst down players quite easily with my GF. Ideally:

Lunging Strike
Tide of Iron
Block for 4 seconds to build reckless attacker
Bull Charge
Lunging Strike (in this order for trample the fallen bonus)
Griffon's Wrath
Griffon's Wrath
Griffon's Wrath
(They are now dead if they are a CW, SW, or DC).
Indomitable Strength
Lunging Strike
(The are now dead if they are not an OP or if they are receiving heals).

I prefer my other characters because playing a GF is just silly right now. I'm not calling for a nerf, just pointing out a problem that makes all my characters less fun to play (but especially my GF).

icyphish · May 2015

Being a GWF I would say I am very jealous with GF's encounters (lunging strike and bull charge), those mid-range charge attacks with KNOCKDOWN EFFECT is one of the reasons making GF so strong in PvP, yes they not only deal decent dmg, the knockdown effect leaves their opponent totally open to all attacks and is part of the reason why GF is kinda ownage in 1 vs 1 (this is if they can block with their shield well, or even worse, those that uses target lock...)

I am happy for GF to keep the damage and even those 50% defense buff after using some encounters, however if they would remove the knockdown effect and make it stun for 0.5~1 second, that might make it better....
(Basically the same as GWF, where Takedown and Frontline used to actually KNOCK DOWN the target, and ppl would complain its way too OP, now they change the effect to STUN insitead of Knockdown, it makes huge difference)

x1101011x wrote: »

I *do* play a GF. My three high level characters are DC, CW, and GF. I don't know why you all think I have a GWF; I simply compared the two because they are very similar and even share the same class forum.

I would much rather face a GWF than a GF in PvP. You can just dodge back every time they reach you (or block with a GF). With a GF, every time they reach you, you are stunned.

I know because I can burst down players quite easily with my GF. Ideally:

Lunging Strike
Tide of Iron
Block for 4 seconds to build reckless attacker
Bull Charge
Lunging Strike (in this order for trample the fallen bonus)
Griffon's Wrath
Griffon's Wrath
Griffon's Wrath
(They are now dead if they are a CW, SW, or DC).
Indomitable Strength
Lunging Strike
(The are now dead if they are not an OP or if they are receiving heals).

I prefer my other characters because playing a GF is just silly right now. I'm not calling for a nerf, just pointing out a problem that makes all my characters less fun to play (but especially my GF).

casteth · May 2015

Hello,

yesterday i fought 1vs1 one of the strongest Gf ingame, i got decent gears, 3,25 ( tenacity gears ), i'm paladin, which means i have decent defense, the Gf 2 shooted me, with an 80k hit ( hopefully i have good defense and tenacity, because without it.. )

I was unable to fight him back, because my class is too slow to hit him from back when he was shield up.

Now, i will not say that they are too strong, because they are The solution against my class, even with max gears, i think that i will never be able to kill him, not even sure that with max gears i'll be able to defend against that kind monster.

So, from my paladin's point of view, it's ok, Gf's are my nemesis.

Now, the only thing i'm thinking is that i have no idea who can really fight 1vs1 against a top Gf, i tried all classes, but i'm not good with all especially at high lvl.

So my question is, think about fighting a top Gf, which class with same kind of gears got advantages against him? ( don't tell me Tr, we all know that a good Gf will kill a good Tr, and don't tell me another Gf.. )

vinceent1 · May 2015

80k hit? cant imagine this is another power than anvil of doom and its easily dodgeable (players dodge my anvil pretty often)

lordsied5 · May 2015

GF versatility is very op and for thoose who dont see it you're blind!!!!!! heck i 3 shotted a cw with lunge<bull charge<then anvil of doom. i can tank and still do damage while tanking lol....op. i can also stunn lock if i wanted 2 :S

hawkeyel · May 2015

WOW I had no idea my GF was so awesome thanks. Odd in solo play I don't feel very awesome.This game has always been a Solo players dream all class are an army of one. This was fine before they upped the Mob. damage to a point that team play has become a very real need.Problem is we have no trinity to allow us each to be the role they wish us to play.Every class has powers that should not be in their tree A GF and Gwf should be your tanks a DC should be your healer ect. But in this game every other class has some powers that take away from there roles. And a giant pissing match breaks out every time this topic comes up.You want balance in this game as it is you will never have it.And in time the GF and DC will both find them selves the odd man out again in team play.Which is the very thing this Mod.6 was supposed to fix.

[PvP] GF Overpowered

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