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foxxy
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 563 Arc User
I ask this because i always see nerf/ fixes to other classes, except to wizards.
Wizards are the best strikers, best controllers (they should); not the best, but good tanks. And a capstone feat that provides better healings than virtuous clerics. I know (i've read before) cryptic devs own wizards as their main, but such elitism is necessary? even among toon's designs? Why giving the best to 1 class, while other/s get nerfs?
If i don't want my class to be nerfed, then i should play wizard? since module 4 (i started) all i see minor and great buffs to wizards.
Wizards are the best strikers, best controllers (they should); not the best, but good tanks. And a capstone feat that provides better healings than virtuous clerics. I know (i've read before) cryptic devs own wizards as their main, but such elitism is necessary? even among toon's designs? Why giving the best to 1 class, while other/s get nerfs?
If i don't want my class to be nerfed, then i should play wizard? since module 4 (i started) all i see minor and great buffs to wizards.
Post edited by foxxy#4211 on
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GWFs out dps us.
SWs can out dps us.
TRs & HRs (rare good ones) can give us a run for dps.
We do out dps GFs and OPs woot.
Best controllers?
I would agree, but not by a whole lot.
TR Smokebomb is the best CC in the game other than Oppressive Force.
Crushing Root Trapper HR may be the best CC in the game.
Good Tanks?
If you mean they can memorize attack timings and time their dodges to avoid attacks, sure.
So can TR.
So can HR.
Better healing than clerics?
Wow, don't even know what kind of non healing clerics you have been running with...because yea just wow.
I'm going to guess this is a troll thread.
Either TR (stealth + smokebomb) or HR (stealth + roots + crushing roots) can open without taking damage or dieing to server timing issues with dodge.
CW can follow that up with freeze / steal time / OF.
Tank pulls agro after initial opener.
DC heals group & buffs/debuffs.
Everyone DPSes.
A lot smoother run on average than pure CW stacking, but most people don't seem to know it.
Any one of the CC can be swapped out for a higher DPS (GWF/SW), but I would agree parties are best with at least 1 CW.
I am sure they will fix the Epic DDs
Urlord
Um.... no. SWs major damage came Tyrannical Threat which was nerfed to the ground in mod 6. That along with the fact the class has no immunity frames, damage resistance, and that a successful lifesteal proc is rarer than a lottery win, they spend more time running around the fight than being able to fight.
HRs are so damaging with their encounters that hit for 5k and the dailies that hit for 10k..... yeah... this is also a no. If they were so devastating, there wouldn't be groups that kick HRs or TRs the moment the queue brings them into an instance. PUGs always want CWs, but will sometimes settle for a GWF.
In PvE yes... maybe ,although the scoundrel path was nerfed in mod 6. In PvP, no one controls quite like the CW... well... except for...
yeah, I've got a trapper; first thing I did was respec when mod 5 hit because I thought combat and archery were lacklustre. That said, I can even admit that the perma-dazing with any root is silly. That said, in PvE, it's so needed as HRs are so squishy. 2 arrow hits will kill a HR, and they don't exactly get awesome encounters like Shield.
Your dodges are not the sole thing keeping a CW alive. Those other classes don't have Shield. That 20% DR that persists after your first hit has been taken is the equivalent of 8000 Defense (not even accounting for the fact that this DR cannot be mitigated). No other class has this.
Additionally, HR dodges are horrible, with a fraction of a second immunity frame and a short shift. To get out of a red zone, they need to use 2-3 of 5 total.
You'll notice he pointed out Virtuous DC. Virtuous are HoT clerics. That massive healing you get from a Faithful DC when you are under 40% HP is Gift of Faith, a proc based on stored healing. The most powerful DC heal is Bastion of Health, about 20k max healing in a 20ft AoE with a 16 sec cooldown, whereas Renegade chaotic growth does about 50k healing in a 50ft radius.
That's the reality of things, so I get where the OP is coming from. Players of other classes are just concerned that when they are "nerfed", they are actually using nerf weapons. When a CW is "nerfed" they are down to a 500 kilotonne nuke down from 1 megatonne.
All classes are equal, but CWs are more equal than others.
That's an unfair assumption. When a better geared CW out DPSs a lower geared player of another class. That doesn't prove the wizard is over powered. It just proves the other guy is under geared. GWFs are the main DPS class right now. With the lostmauth set equipped they are almost "unstoppable" <--(You like that huh?)
^This^ +1
A somewhat better way to use that composition is to have the tank aggro to get the mobs together and then the HR can drop cordon on them (pulling them even tighter and giving the tank a second or two to fire off some encounters/ make an attack or two). Then cycle around to melle (because the tank has re-established aggro) and repeat the cycle. This holds ghost as a backup in case the HR steals aggro (sometimes crits are a double-edged sword). This naturally means that the CW can dump AOEs all over the pile. naturally the TR/ GWF burns down the biggest pile of HP in the room and the DC keeps everyone alive. My mains are a GF and a HR I can show you the sequence some time if you like. But yeah people build CW heavy parties because they are lazy/ can't be bothered to plan or communicate....
I actually wanted to compose a lenghty, comprehensive reply going into detail and explaining where and why you're off. But frankly, I don't think you came here to discuss - as in respect and consider other opinions - but to nag about CWs.
So all I'll say here is this: Please add me ingame, I'll set up a run or two and you'll see how far you're off with your claims towards the CW and most of the other classes.
Regards
I am here openly to discuss, and to imply otherwise is pretty dismissive.
If you see in my post, I am very precise about those points. I'm main a Righteous DO and a Trapper HR, and I regularly PUG all end-game PvE and PvP, with over 600 hours of game time put in (sadly, LOL). Both of my characters are well-geared (Purple to orange in all slots) although not BiS. None of what I stated is theory crafting.
You'll notice where I agreed with some of the points made by the post I am referring to.
If you PvP'd at all, you can't honestly say that CWs cannot freeze-lock classes that have no CC break. Nor can you reasonably deny that shield (along with a heavily broken Negation enchantment) makes CWs incredibly tanky. Considering that the new defense scaling is 1% per 400 points, shield is incredibly strong.
So by all means, discuss away. But I've played with many groups, some talented, some not, and I can honestly say that CWs are in a better place than most classes. I've sometimes outdamaged CWs in mod 6 runs, while slotting only one damage encounter and no damage dailies, but in no ways is this a regular or expected occurrence.
Cheers.
This is most definitely a troll thread.
It's rare that I beat a TR in damage, and I've seen GWFs beat some of the best TRs I know.
Shield is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. It does not allow us to tank. Lifesteal is what allowed us to tank, and it's all but gone.
There is no way in any of the 9 Hells that a Renegade can out heal any kind of DC who is at their keyboard.
You want AT MOST two CW's in your party. The mobs hit so hard and CW's are so squishy, if you have more than that, your team will fail because the CW's will be dying all the time. Plus the T2 mobs are very control resistant. It's not like CN where CW's could gather up all the mobs and place them in one spot. Now, when a CW casts Arcane Singularity or Furious Immolation, the mobs barely move. So you bring a CW for control and damage, but for things like building chill stacks with Icy Terrain/Conduit of Ice, and stunning mobs with Shard/Steal Time.
You want a tank, a healer, a melee DPSer (either TR or GWF or melee HR), a CW, and another DPSer. But hey, if you can finish Epic ToS legit with a 5xCW team, please, post the video and show how it's done. I doubt it is possible at this moment.
I have run with many people in pve and pvp, inspecting their gear, almost in same gear. Wizards outdps anyone. they are the best controllers, except for the part where trappers and their broken feat whatever it is. but being a controller is what they should. shield gives them more time to tank damage. and the heals. lilhamlet explained better than me. and i was reffering to virtuous cleric. so pay attention to what lilhamlet said.
So yeah basically, if we dont want to see our class being nerfed, then we gotta be wizard, a class that never get nerfed
This isn't mod 5 for any class anymore. The days of GWF planting & spaming an AOE at will are over, but same for everyone else. Even GWFs can use jump casting to a degree.
TT isn't even the big SW damage dealer right now, and neither is Fury. And yes, on prolonged fights especially bosses a SW can out dps a CW easily.
Your not looking at the right encounters. I am assuming we are talking about PVE & not PVP?
I doubt most people have enven seen a good HR.
2 arrow hits kill most classes including a CW with shield, so how many dodges does a HR have? If your not dodging I hope your stunning it.
Shield is great for PVP, and it helps a bit in PVE, but it's not the cats meow like your making it out to be. With nearly 90k health & shield up my healthbar will usually still be down to 20% maybe 30% if I take a light hit and it doesn't crit.
You can walk out of most circles without dodging, especially when your not locked down with long animation times. There are a few where that's not an option, so good thing you have 5 dodges not including stamina recharge. I will say the CW/TR/DC dodges are nice though.
I really don't know much about DCs, leveled one to 60 & parked it permanently. As I recall though, there were some decent heals available via tabed encounter uses for any path (Forgemaster Flame was one), but maybe I'm mistaken or that died in mods past. Don't underestimate the damage reduction DCs provide either.
Also: My Chaotic Growth is 3590 (3416) health each (2 per second)with 21.5k power & Legendary Orb of Elemental Fire. This will fill up less than my health bar in 10 seconds time. Considerably less than that on some classes
1. Great AoE damage
2. Great ST damage
3. Dodge / immunity frame
4. Persistent damage mitigation
5. Top AoE control
6. ST control
Do I need to go on? I've said it since mod 4, the fact that CW can dish out major damage while controlling everything, is a direct competition to tanking. If you have multiple CW, and everything is perma frozen, why need a tank?
The following needs to be done:
1. CW functions need to be divided, either has control, or has damage, not both.
2. Multiple CWs must not be able to CC at the same time. Control effects cannot be stacked on top of another indefinitely.
3. Control fatigue. If something is CC'ed for certain period of time, it should become immune to all CC effects for a certain period of time as well.
1. sure, CWs can hit a lot of things simultaneously
2. very build dependant (you need a tier 4 heroic feat for that that takes 10% of all your aoe dmg as a toll)
3. aaaand cloth armor, don't forget the awesome AC class CWs don't share with other classes and the complete lack of deflection XD
4. where and how do I get it? oh, if you mean tabbed shield - I wonder if you'd like to switch your preferred class tabbed mechanic for that
5. control wizard
6. control wizard (really, it's even in the name, but see next section for clarification)
1. and they are, my renegade does sweet damage but can't reliably control anything with a cc resist bigger than that of an discarded muppet, my oppressor on the otherhand cc's like a champ but get's outdpsed by all dps builds not to mention dps classes
2. can they? maybe if they are really coordinated (like team mates on voice chat coordinated) or you're having a really bad day at pvp. temporary chill stack immunity was implemented somewhere in mod 4 to prevent perma freeze and it's shared between all CWs - perma stun - there's an awesome TR tree for that, and the trapper HR tree has already been mentioned
3. see above
Other classes always seem OP if you don't play them for a while, that's how I ended up with a lot of toons, and I love them all (except maybe the oh-my-gosh-look-at-those-casting-times SWs, on a personal note).
I mostly play CW/DC/GF, depending on what my party needs (I'm a big support class nerd, it shows) - I can see your point somewhat since, yes, CWs don't fluctuate so wildly in their usefulness as other classes did in the past - there is a certain disbalance between the classes as the mods change and someone always seems to get the brown end of the stick (like it's generally acknowledged pre mod 5 DCs did regularly and GF as well) while other classes have a tendency to fluctuate from superpowered to somewhat balanced as the mods change (TR, HR, GWF - and certain CW builds as well...and that makes the players of that class only feel nerfhammered I guess). Good players always adapt, but I don't think of CWs as an OP class, especially now when there is a class literally named OP XD
But a CW can still escape with immunity frames. Most GWFs are prone to getting stomped in emergency situations. Fact is, every class should be reworked to get immunity frames, even if they are tighter timed parries or something. The run is pretty ridiculous in the current game design. All that said, I did agree that GWF played well can do more damage.
And then there's storm spell damage (the only proc damage in game that can crit)....
In a prolonged fight, yeah damnation soul binders can do decent single target damage, but it's very situational. They spend half of their time shadowslipping about trying not to die, so it reduces their dps output. But I will agree that in a prolonged fight, those soulsparks last forever and the SW becomes formidable.
But Fury Hellbringer is pure trash now, and Temptation has become an unreliable support class.
Oh, I'm looking at the right encounters. Part of this is that I'm considering both PvE AND PvP. I've got a well built HR, and frankly the most damaging encounter is Fox Shift which caps out (non-crit, non-buffed) at about 5-6k. If I remember correctly, a CW with about 9k power will magic missile for that. Not to say that HR's can't do damage. The benefit of the trapper path is the fact that played well, you can essentially spam encounters rarely even having to use an at-will.
Note: IMO for anyone reading this thinking of making an HR, Archery is trash right now. Archers are great in most games because they are a kiting class, but HRs have zero mobilty and mobs move faster than players in this game.
It is better in PvP than PvE just because in PvE (dungeons especially) even tanks are prone to death in less than 5 hits. That said, in PvP it gives a tremendous amount of defense. When you consider if passively gives unmitigatable DR equivalent to what normally one would stack 8000 defense for. You can't be knocked out of it, it can't be dispelled. The argument that one can still die when using it isn't the point. I never claimed invulnerability, just that its benefits have greatly been increased when considering the current stat scaling.
An HR really expends most of your dodges to get out of a dragon acid/fire pool, valindra's lightning, or a smokebomb circle. Once out, you're easy pickings for whatever attacks you.
Of the 3 you listed, I've found the TR dodges to be most responsive when used at the last second.
Oh man...you're making me cry. I miss forgemaster's flame being a heal so much... and it healed for a lot back then. Now, it's just a DoT and doesn't even slow unless in divine mode. Astral Shield no longer heals either.
Yeah, DC was completely changed, including the mechanics of it. Bastion of Health is the big heal now, and has to be empowered to do crazy heals. (think of arcane stacks, but DC's get them for using divine mode encounters). The DC capstones also force the DC to give something up. If Virtuous, you no longer do direct heals and all your heals become HoTs, for a larger amount. If Faithful, your HoTs no longer heal people but instead get held in escrow for a buff (gift of faith) which insta-heals the person when they drop below 40% hp for the amount in escrow at the time.
So yours is a 70k heal as a free effect which does over 3x the base (non-crit, non-buffed) heal of the DC's best heal in a much wider radius. And it procs off of doing damage. Not encounters only. Not to say that it's reliable, but in parties with multiple renegades, it happens a lot. I had a Renegade just heal me in a PvP match after a fight by spamming lightning and getting it to proc. went from 30% hp to 75% within a short period. (And this is in an environment with healing depression of 50%)
To be clear, I'm not saying that single CWs can solo endgame dungeons like the mod 3-5 CN days, but they really have more than the other classes generally do. Jacks-of-all-trades, masters-of.... all.... trades, or at least a close second with many.
You are wrong!
Control Wizard is the best DPS and CC for PvE (on mod6 every class can be the best dps using buged /spells/feats/boons/Enchan/Artifacts...).
Just 1 think for dont spend to much works.
100% of the partys have/want 1 or 2 CWs and partys in PvE can do easily any instance with 3 CWs, DC and Tank.
Partys in PvE:
3 SW, DC and Tank (no1 want to go)
3 GWF, DC and Tank (no1 want to go)
3 TR, DC and Tank (no1 want to go)
3 HR, DC and Tank (no1 want to go)
All this partys will fail in any instance if dont use Bugs/MapExploits. But the party with 3 CWs will destroy any instance.
Have 1 nice day.
thank you.
Play every other class if you are one of those that like to suffer every mod or two.
Its ridiciolous how stormspell and shield are staying in this status without any change
this is pure nonsense. we might not hit as hard as damnation. come run with me...I hit hard enough.
Tabatha
Civil Anarchy.
Tabatha@rotters // Scourge Warlock // Co Leader // Civil Anarchy
We are looking for non elitist guilds to join our alliance.
Lets talk about it after a GF stun lock you a couple of times.
gladly. they do have the best control.but no one wants to go oppressor. then they wanna complain about how they dont have good control.
Actually. I barely remember this thread :
We all know what happened to that skill, don't we..lol
#removestormspell
Heroes of Darkness
Retired since 02/15
My opinions are my own. Please do not judge my friends nor guild for my statements.
HEy tyranical threat still has damage to outdps wizard thanks.
People seem to forget that CW damage didn't go up at all when StormSpell became the monster it is. It was a supplement for the hardest encounter damage nerf in the game (across all CW encounters).
A lot of the posts in this thread make me think there are a lot of random pugs posting that don't regularly play in good groups, and don't even understand a lot of the game mechanics. Probably a lot of the people who think T2s can't be beaten (Yes GWD & TOS can both be beaten normally).