PvP Class Role Ratings Table

zeusom · March 2015

UPDATE
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Please take this survey to contribute your class knowledge. Please only fill out the part/subsection(s) of the survey for class(es) that you know best. Please do not troll the survey. There is no agenda here except to arrive at valid assessment and information baseline.

PART 1: Rate TR and HR
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RQZBW7D

PART 2: Rate CW and SW and DC
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RWDZRBY

PART 3: Rate GF and GWF
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RWXSFP9

ORIGINAL POST BELOW
___________

Looking for some constructive feedback on the class role rating table below. The table rates or grades each class for ability to fulfill different pvp functions or roles. Support role, for ex, means party healing and/or party buffs. Most roles are pretty much self-explanatory in a word. I was hesitant to post because this because such a the thread easily turning into a flaming ball of trollpoo real fast, so will say this first:

- Table posted for the purpose of revising and discussing it.
- I put numbers (1 to 5) quickly with the intention of getting feedback/revision.
- Please discuss the table and the numbers in a civil and productive objective manner.

http://i.imgur.com/Ch4bSTg.png

Which other paragons are also very common in pvp and need to be separate (like healing DC vs dps DC)?
Are there any additional 'roles' in PvP that should be added?
What numbers need to be changed and why?

If we can get to a polished revised version that (most) community can agree on, it could make valuable Neverwinter wiki content.

zeusom · March 2015

Bigger:

5: Excellent
4: Very Good
3: Good
2: Fair
1: Poor

foxxy · March 2015

zeusom wrote: »

Bigger:

5: Excellent
4: Very Good
3: Good
2: Fair
1: Poor

TR has less support than that. Dps Cleric can be good as controllers and damagers, as well as wizards; top on damage too and movility high on both. I would say rangers all in 4, except control, which is 5. Rangers are in a good state in my opinion. The rest of classes are messed up. Oh! and if u take damage as healing for healers, i would go for 5.

hypervoreian · March 2015

I play a Gf.I agree on all except survivability and solo node.4 could be apply to a protector turtle build.that build though will have less DPS than a cleric and 1 cc. (Shiled talent feat slotted and ferocious reaction,ITF ,Iron W ,Bc encounters)
So a Prot would go like 4 1 2 2 3 4

A conq will have similar survivability to a GWf,3 and solo node will have same as a GWf 3.The rest i agree.
So a Conq would go 3 2 2/1 3 2 3

zeusom · March 2015

Great input so far and thanks. Stating your primary class / experience level provides some context.
After few more feedbacks I can post a 1st round revised version.

rotatorkuf · March 2015

TR is fine, i'd probably give them 3 or 4 support if mezzing, hell, even with how crazy they are at wiping ppl off the map

hDC looks fine

dDC looks fine

HR 3, 5, 5, 5, 3, 4

CW 3, 5, 4, 5, 4, 3

GWF 3, 4, 4, 2, 2, 2

GF 4, 3, 1, 2, 3, 3

SW 2, 4, 4, 2, 2, 2

felixkam · March 2015

Personally, I main a trapper HR in PvP and mobility is easily a 5, control however is definitely not at a 4. Hell even a gwf can lock down a single target with their combo then a HR can. The best a HR can usually do in PvP is constricting or hindering as their root application, with disrupting shot as one of their dailies. Problem with that is that the roots are halved in duration while flagged for PvP. In addition the HR's daze is fully affected by tenacity, unlike CWs, and cannot be extended like the TRs, all while still remaining deflectable. And don't even try to tell me that the fact that the HR can lock down multiple targets with their roots is enough to justify a 4 or a 5, because you will almost never, NEVER, hit more than 1 or 2 targets at a time.

As for survivability, the HRs main form of survivability comes from their mobility and not getting hit, which combined with Fox's Cunning, which almost everyone runs, could probably justify a 4 on that category.

Finally, as far as solo nodes go, I dare say that it could go as far up as a 4 out of 5, simply because its intrinsically tied with survivability, and invisibility, both of which the HR has access too, even if they aren't necessarily the best for holding a node.

All in all I'd say,
Survivability: 4
Damage: 4
Mobility: 5
Control: 3
Support: 3
Solo Node: 4
Total: 23

P.S. Most HRs in PvP nowadays are trappers, the few that run archery are too easy to kill if you catch them out to remain popular, and combat doesn't get enough control to start building up bleeds/damage because boar charge stuns you in addition to the target for some reason.

The other account I have is a SW, and they are really, really, really bad in PvP. Honestly I think your rating for them is fairly accurate, although I might even drop solo node down to a 1 as well.

adamy2004 · March 2015

It seems good as a baseline, but if you are going through and matching up classes like they would be in normal pvp, Gwfs would not have nearly that high of a survivability score (for example) vs TRs

cw should have a 3 for survivability due to shield

HR (if trapper) should have a 4 on holding a node

and if the heal dc is vs other max geared players the survivability should be more of a 4 along with solo node should be a 4

jazzfong · March 2015

CC for dps DC should be 4 while healing DC should be 2 in Mod 6 (Sunburst bug fixed). Other data for DC is true.

CW survival ability should be 3, killing other fast enough or perma cc is also a method of survival.

Edit: I saw someone stating both healing and dps dc can use some same power so their *insert any category* should be as high as the other. Yes and no, if we really slot that power such as chains as a healing dc or HG daily as dps dc, that is not dps nor healing dc but a hybrid. Dps dc dont use supporting skills except Astral Shield (or Divine Glow) to maximise their dps output and it is vise versa for healing dc.

Btw, chains is broken and will fail in 30% chance and can be countered easily by dodge or sprint or cc immune. Slotting chains as a healing dc doesnt raise its cc ability to 4, maybe only 2.5 i suggest. If you are a dc you will understand there are some occasions the chain will lie on ground and cannot be triggered in pvp.

suddenlyslow · March 2015

The chart would need to be expanded more. You have the damage dc and the healer dc but you would need to expand the chart for the other classes as well to show how the various builds work. Also some vary on paragon greatly but that might be too much to include.

felixkam · March 2015

For HR, it's more separated by feat specs, then paragon paths, so I'd put it as Archery HR, Combat HR, and Trapper HR. Assuming the information I posted as the baseline for a Trapper, I'd say that the listings below would be fairly accurate.

Archery HR
Survivability: ~2.5 (2 without fox's cunning, 2.5 with)
Damage: 4.5 (Depends on the build)
Mobility: 3.5 (Still mobile, just not as mobile as say a trapper or combat spec)
Control: 3 (Maybe a 4 if you include area denial effects)
Support: 3.5 (Again depends on build)
Solo Node: 2
Total: 19

Combat HR
Survivability: 4.5
Damage: 3.5
Mobility: 4.5
Control: 3.5 (Would be higher except Boar Charge stuns you as well)
Support: 4
Solo Node: 3
Total: 23

suicidalgodot · March 2015

My comments and opinions:

Survival: HR should get 4 with the high deflect chance they have, and some other things... ...sure, bad ones are squishy, but I've encountered more than one unkillable HR. Similarly, CW should get 3. I'd rather see GWF as 2 - as long as there's no DC in the background and the're not BiS-tankyfied they can be put down fairly easily.

Damage: dDC damage is 5 - if you include DoT: +1500% weapon damage over 15 seconds on Crit (roughly <=> +300 - +500% severity) is something, isn't it? Way more damage than HR can shell out. Maybe split that column in 1-hit and DoT damage? Or spike and plateau damage?

Mobility: There's no "1" => give that to GF (Sure, Leap, ThRush,... but), then CW gets 2 (only 2-3 dodges), rest as is. Though I'm more on the side of the dodge than on the rush one, but so be it.

Control/CC: dDC and hDC - both can slot Chains, SB -> CC 4. Or rather rescale by giving poor SW the 1 (yeah, Harrowstorm, but what else? As opposed to all the little gimmicks GF and GWF can field) which would make the column go like (top to bottom) TR 5 - hDC 3 - dDC 3 - HR 4 - CW 5 - GWF 2 - GF 2 - SW 1

Support: dDC and hDC: AS works for everyone, HG works for everyone, ASh works for everone, buffs and debuffs work for everyone, Diivine Glow heals, too, dFF buffs all allies' damage,... ...so IMHO dDC needs to get 4. At the very least equal, IMHO quite a bit better than CW. Similar story for some HRs, but ofc this depends highly on build and Encounters / Class Features / Gear slotted.

Solo Node: I won't comment here, because _that_ is the one thing that's the most skill- and build-determined thing in all PvP. Also, I'd differentiate here, maybe include an additional column: 1v1 e.g. the CC-oCW is hard to beat. 2nd red joins in => end of CC CW. Similar thing with SW. So I'd suggest adding a "1 vs 1" column, too...

...what I'd also recommend is to differentiate between the different TR paragons: Here you mush them all up into one, and take the strengths of all, but it's always a tradeoff. A permastealth Sabo e.g. has lower damage and CC, but high survivability. A maxdam MIX build has reduced survivability and CC as points and skills go into damage focused, and he'll be rather weak as Solo Node agent. Heck, you can even build a kinda support TR with however low damage, getting tons of assists but few kills, etc, etc...

If you're going to make this a serious project, it might be a good idea to put that chart up for DL as a blank and conduct a kind of poll...

TL;DR: Add "1 vs 1"-column, split damage column into Spike and Plateau Damage. split TR line into SabTR, ScoTR, ExeTR. Some minor number changes.

zeusom · March 2015

Thanks all comments and very productive feedback. So far this thread is a model for a productive flame-free thread and that is appreciated.

So I will work up a revised version of the simplified chart based on comments. An elaborate/detail chart need split paragons, split points in 0.5 increments, and add a column or two.

For simple version, we mash together dmg types by giving burst type dmg (like TR/CW) a score boost over DoT or chance proc dmg (SW) of the same magnitude. Also cast speed factors in as well like CW damage encounters cast much faster than SW encounters by and large. I agree about CW survivability being a 3 not only because shield and because the full-heal paragon capstone. I will post the 1st revised (simple) version soon based on comments here. SW tempt and fury need splitting also but both are bad. I don't think 1v1 needs a column separate from Solo Node much but not all of the ability to solo node is to 1v1, too much overlap and 1v1 could be another table of itself showing every 1v1 matchup I will leave for someone elses project if they want:) But probably a burst dmg column should be added in addition to overall damage.

Maybe we can do a detailed surveymonkey poll to move it from there to Neverwinter wiki content. I do want to finish this and published before Mod6 launch when so much will change again because it will serve as a good reference point baseline for where things were Mod6.

babality · March 2015

Wow SW is really that bad?

rayrdan · March 2015

well this is my personal opinion

HR 3, 5, 1, 5, 4, 3

CW 4, 5, 3, 5, 5, 2

GWF 4, 4, 5, 2, 2, 2

GF 4, 3, 1, 3, 5, 3

SW 2, 4, 4, 2, 2, 1

TR 5[if 100% stealthed, about raw dr 2], 5, 4, 4, 1, 5

dDC 4, 5, 3, 3, 3, 4

hDC 5, 2, 3, 3, 5, 5

edit: HR intented as trapper

vteasy · March 2015

HR scores are low, damage/mobility/control. CW support should be max. GWF damage should be higher. I am assuming you are using optimal builds. GWF put out some of the most damage in pvp, also mobility should be 5.

In fact outside of TR and hDC, you only show one excellent rating for any other class in any ability.

xgrandz02 · March 2015

babality wrote: »

Wow SW is really that bad?

https://youtu.be/K_VXHfvigk0

https://youtu.be/0grM7gSB2rM

https://youtu.be/B0Gr-ogBrD0

not older than one week videos

Nope SW got very high DMG compared to gwf and SW it is a Ranged Class!!!.............

Here on forum are more SWs going its why ppl vote for SW same as others threads,
as GWF are tired to write every time the same thing and nothing will happen,
cuz the devs just ignored us and let us dying... nerf after nerf......

i do not vote or any else for my class GWF because i'm tired to do the same thing for nothing,

rayrdan · March 2015

xgrandz02 wrote: »

https://youtu.be/K_VXHfvigk0

https://youtu.be/0grM7gSB2rM

https://youtu.be/B0Gr-ogBrD0

not older than one week videos

Nope SW got very high DMG compared to gwf and SW it is a Ranged Class!!!.............

Here on forum are more SWs going its why ppl vote for SW same as others threads,
as GWF are tired to write every time the same thing and nothing will happen,
cuz the devs just ignored us and let us dying... nerf after nerf......

i do not vote or any else for my class GWF because i'm tired to do the same thing for nothing,

Sofie is full potted and one of the best sw around. boxa is a player

felixkam · March 2015

babality wrote: »

Wow SW is really that bad?

Unfortunately, it does tend to do very poorly in PvP. This is due to a multitude of reasons, for one, they lack an actual dodge, makingit very easy to catch them with a damaging power. In addition a lot of their damage tends to be over time, killing flames being the most glaring exception, and unfortunately, PvP is an environment where burst damage or repeatable burst damage tends to be much more highly valued.

zeusom · March 2015

Here is the first revision of the simple table based on the cumulative of all the comments. This only has one or two feat/paragon (usually the most commonly played) for each class. Sorry what is the most common feat/paragon type for GF and GWF in pvp?

People were very consistent with some their change opinions like with HR trapper and CW. Detail version will need splits for feat paths (maybe some paragon splits), a column for burst dmg, and maybe 0.5 pt splits. Will look into setting up a survey monkey for it.

Oh wait.. since SW fury is specified it should even get a 2 for support as no party heals or buffs/debuffs. Dreadtheft gives a 6% dmg resist debuff and curses but these apply to SW only, party does not benefit. Support = 1 too, poor SW.

utuwer · March 2015

In my opinion, HR Combat has the highest survivability among 3 HR paths because of the combo of wild medicine + deflect, not trapper. HR in general does not have that high survivability. It makes no sense that HR trapper has the same survivability as a DC heal. A DC heal can tank 3-4 people, HR trapper or even combat cannot do that.

Solo node, GF should have a higher point. Actually, GF should be a equal or even better option than HR for soloing a node.

felixkam · March 2015

utuwer wrote: »

In my opinion, HR Combat has the highest survivability among 3 HR paths because of the combo of wild medicine + deflect, not trapper. HR in general does not have that high survivability. It makes no sense that HR trapper has the same survivability as a DC heal. A DC heal can tank 3-4 people, HR trapper or even combat cannot do that.

Solo node, GF should have a higher point. Actually, GF should be a equal or even better option than HR for soloing a node.

Actually, trapper HRs do have a fair bit of survivability. The main reason why most people don't think so, is because they have a tendency to equate high defense, and high hp with survivability as opposed to other mitigation such as dodging and mobility. In reality a well played HR can survive a lot just by keeping out of the damage while still being in the fight.

Sure a DC might be able to stay on the node at all times while tanking the damage, but a HR can still keep the same number of people at bay just by rotating rapidly through their cooldowns and immunity frames.

As for the solo node point, I'd agree with you, GFs are better at sitting on a single point then HRs. HRs are better of trying to kill the enemy and then capture the point, or defend the point by killing the person(s) attempting the capture. If they do have to sit on a point, again their survivability comes from staying mobile and dodging as opposed to soaking up the damage and mitigating it, so they end up slowly losing the point just because Marauder's often lands you slightly past the node itself.

zeusom · March 2015

Right, HP and defense is only part of survivability, there is more to it than that: Dodge mehcanic (huge), HP, defense, deflect, deflect severity, tenacity, mobility, healing, lifesteal, feats, control/CC ability, class features (like stealth or shield), are all part of it.

kangkeok · March 2015

felixkam wrote: »

For HR, it's more separated by feat specs, then paragon paths, so I'd put it as Archery HR, Combat HR, and Trapper HR. Assuming the information I posted as the baseline for a Trapper, I'd say that the listings below would be fairly accurate.

Archery HR
Survivability: ~2.5 (2 without fox's cunning, 2.5 with)
Damage: 4.5 (Depends on the build)
Mobility: 3.5 (Still mobile, just not as mobile as say a trapper or combat spec)
Control: 3 (Maybe a 4 if you include area denial effects)
Support: 3.5 (Again depends on build)
Solo Node: 2
Total: 19

Combat HR
Survivability: 4.5
Damage: 3.5
Mobility: 4.5
Control: 3.5 (Would be higher except Boar Charge stuns you as well)
Support: 4
Solo Node: 3
Total: 23

In my opinion with my archery build,

Archery HR
Survivability: 3
Damage: 5 ( if u mean 1 shot )
Mobility: 3
Control: 1
Support: 4 (If u mean support by sniping off opponent )
Solo Node: 1
Total: 17

zeusom · March 2015

First draft full detail version.. lots of numbers just punched in here.
Classes are split wrt the major feat/paragon/type that show up as viables in pvp.
So here is where is starts to get cumbersome.

First - help with the Row names please (GWF, CW etc)?
Any class types/featpath/paragons that are missing or wrong or that I need to differentiate?
Really only need to cover the ones viable or common in pvp.

http://i.imgur.com/qMP6ECa.png

rayrdan · March 2015

5 points to mobility to HR
4 point to tr to dots?? we are talking about 2 different paragon path
3 point to gwf burst??

the table still makes no sense

zeusom · March 2015

No, full table is not at the making sense stage yet. Yes this is where it will get complicated because of having both 2x Paragon and 3x Feat tree for every class.So really full detail would need 7 Classes x 6 Paragon-Feat builds = 42 rows ..... No thanks.

Lets use the two or three the most common paragon-feat builds for each class and do table for that.
For example:

TR (MI-Sco)
TR (MI-Exe)
SW (SB-Fury)
SW (SB-Tempt)

rayrdan · March 2015

you cant compare scoundrel damage to others tr its like 2:5
hr mobility is like 2 if not lower. they have the shortest shift, the lowest immunty frame, the lower movement speed.
tr has basically no dot if we are putting 5 point in survivability...ITC no dishearting strike
however we can work around it
relative mobility of cws with minirepel on being attacked make them way more mobile than listed in table etc etc

felixkam · March 2015

rayrdan wrote: »

you cant compare scoundrel damage to others tr its like 2:5
hr mobility is like 2 if not lower. they have the shortest shift, the lowest immunty frame, the lower movement speed.
tr has basically no dot if we are putting 5 point in survivability...ITC no dishearting strike
however we can work around it
relative mobility of cws with minirepel on being attacked make them way more mobile than listed in table etc etc

I'm saying that a trapper HR easily has mobility that's worth at least a 4 if not a 5, because the fact of the matter is you don't play a trapper HR in PvP without running Marauder's 99% of the time. Marauder's combined with Swiftness of the Fox and your cooldowns lets you keep dashing constantly in and out of combat, using the shifts to break the animation at a certain point when you need to. And then you combine that with Fox Shift which does provide mobility and immunity frames as well and bam! That's why I'd say Trapper HRs deserve a high mobility score.

As far as the very, very, very basic things go, yes. HRs do have the shortest dodge, and the shortest, most buggy, most inconsistent immunity frames, but you still get 5 off in most cases, and when you combine it with steel breeze and marauder's you almost never run out except in longer skirmishes. And yes, HR does have the lowest base movement speed for some reason. It's a shame but it's there.

rayrdan · March 2015

felixkam wrote: »

I'm saying that a trapper HR easily has mobility that's worth at least a 4 if not a 5, because the fact of the matter is you don't play a trapper HR in PvP without running Marauder's 99% of the time. Marauder's combined with Swiftness of the Fox and your cooldowns lets you keep dashing constantly in and out of combat, using the shifts to break the animation at a certain point when you need to. And then you combine that with Fox Shift which does provide mobility and immunity frames as well and bam! That's why I'd say Trapper HRs deserve a high mobility score.

As far as the very, very, very basic things go, yes. HRs do have the shortest dodge, and the shortest, most buggy, most inconsistent immunity frames, but you still get 5 off in most cases, and when you combine it with steel breeze and marauder's you almost never run out except in longer skirmishes. And yes, HR does have the lowest base movement speed for some reason. It's a shame but it's there.

If you are using maradeurs as trapper something is really wrong and your damage output goes down to 1 or 2
trappers deserve 2 to mobility and i m really too good
when 99% of classes got 4 dodges, hr dodges are not subpar they plain suck

zeusom · March 2015

I found a list of all paragon-feat combos. Please tell me which 2 for each class are the most commonly used in pvp and we build table for those only, but only the ones you know well or for sure (your own class and other classes you know well). I know for sure SW its Soulbinder-fury and Soulbinger-tempt.

TWO (2) Most Common for each Class in PvP???
Most common / most viable / most usefull etc.

Trickster Rogue
Master Infiltrator Saboteur
Master Infiltrator Scoundrel
Master Infiltrator Executioner
Whisperknife Saboteur
Whisperknife Scoundrel
Whisperknife Executioner

Control Wizard
Master of Flame Oppresor
Master of Flame Thauamturge
Master of Flame Renegade
Spellstorm Mage Oppresor
Spellstorm Mage Thauamturge
Spellstorm Mage Renegade

Devoted Cleric
Annointed Champion Virtuous
Annointed Champion Faithful
Annointed Champion Righteous
Divine Oracle Virtuous
Divine Oracle Faithful
Divine Oracle Righteous

GWF
Iron Vanguard Sentinel
Iron Vanguard Instigator
Iron Vanguard Destroyer
Swordmaster Sentinel
Swordmaster Instigator
Swordmaster Destroyer

Guardian Fighter
Iron Vanguard Conquerer
Iron Vanguard Protector
Iron Vanguard Tactician
Swordmaster Conquerer
Swordmaster Protector
Swordmaster Tactician

Hunter Ranger
Pathfinder Trapper
Pathfinder Archery
Pathfinder Combat
Stormwarden Trapper
Stormwarden Archery
Stormwarden Combat

Scourge Warlock
Hellbringer Fury
Hellbringer Damnnation
Hellbringer Temptation
Soulbinder Fury
Soulbinder Damnnation
Soulbinder Temptation

PvP Class Role Ratings Table

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