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Reasons why MoF is Worse At Everything
spacejew
Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
I can agree that people should play the game how they want. I'm going to say that right up front. However, I feel that people should be honest with what they are doing when they spec as a Master of Flame. Namely, they are telling themselves and everyone they group with that they don't really care about their team or the highest level of performance from their character. This sounds harsh, but I'll outline the reasons I think this below.
Warning: TL;DR material below.
'Now Spacejew, you're just being a jerk and showing off your e-peen!' you might say. Well, I'd be the first to say that I am definitely not the best player in Neverwinter. Not even close, I'd imagine. I certainly don't have the highest gear score, the most pets, or the nicest toys. I'm a F2P player all the way. That being said, I play the game a lot. Even then, not as much as some other people have but I've got easily over a thousand hours under my belt.
Now, why would I say such a thing about MoF? Why, they care about their team more than spellstorm do right? Wrong. Plenty of MoF play to maximize their own damage just as much as a Spellstorm does it's just less obvious because it's much, much worse damage. Not only that, but since most MoF don't wear, or get as much play out of, the HV set it's even worse. Wearing sets like Shadow Weaver or Champion Mage are measurably worse than High Vizier's for team play yet many MoF will claim otherwise even when the facts don't agree. (Although I will fully admit that even most Spellstorm don't get the maximum benefit from the HV set. Some do though, and if you care about the team you'll know how to keep those HV stacks at max all the time.)
Lets look at rotations. You see, MoF doesn't have a clear rotation that helps the team. Most of them will use the following: CoI on Tab, Steal Time, Shard, Icy Terrain. Well, that's fine and dandy except this rotation doesn't keep anything gathered up for the damage dealers to hit them. If anything, it scatters them with the shardsplosion and keeps them spread out through Prone/freeze/stun. Not only that, but overlapping Steal Time and Freeze are going to negate the prone from Shard. As the final insult MoF is also going to freeze things slower. So much slower, in fact, that most targets will be dead before they freeze. (And this is before you even consider Oppressive Force and how much it scatters things. Smart players will fire it to the side of a group to nudge them all in one direction whereas morons will put it right in the middle. Ugh.)
Now, for a spellstorm what should you be using if you care about team synergy? Well, firstly I'd recommend using EF on Tab, Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Icy Terrain. This lets you gather targets for your team through repeated EF, hit more targets with your Sudden Storm, and keep things frozen with Sudden Storm + Chilling Control and Icy Terrain. This control is bar none better than any MoF setup you can slot. It absolutely does more damage, more control, and provides just as much survivability as the alternative even when the MoF in question is entirely built around personal damage.
Smolder is the least damaging DoT out of the various options. Storm Spell and Elemental Empowerment both do more damage than Smolder even with Swath of Destruction. So losing out on that particular DoT is not as big of a loss as people make it out to be. On top of that Smolder has an inherent limitation of one tick per second. That might not seem like a big deal but Storm Spell can proc multiple times per second and even while it's slightly less reliable it does easily twice the amount of damage. Mathematically that works out to Spellstorms favor in every situation.
When push comes to shove it is blatantly obvious to anyone that has played both spec's that there isn't a single thing that MoF does better. In fact, it does consistently worse in every possible way. This is why MoF like to point at team debuff as their main contribution but even that is simply false. You see, MoF can be rigged to debuff more targets than, say, a DC but it also can't keep those targets in a position for anyone to damage those targets. On top of that they're not wearing HV so they automatically do less debuff even with a Terror and Swath. So they are uselessly debuffed for less than the alternative, tossed around for a reduction in team damage, controlled less, and damaged for less.
On top of all these reasons it's also hard to ignore that if you do only care about personal damage MoF still falls flat even though MoF's encounters are ultimately suited more to damage than Spellstorm's are when you figure the lack of extra control. (Presumably an encounter that only does damage should do more damage than one that does both. Not so in Neverwinter.)
Consider FtF, which is the MoF version of Sudden Storm. It has a cap of 8 targets vs. unlimited targets, no CC attached vs. strong CC attached, ticks over time vs. up-front burst, and lastly encourages the player to use encounters that spread targets since ultimately it doesn't matter to the MoF if things are more spread out. While MoF is easier to play, it's only easier because there is less of a downside to careless play. A spellstorm will have a tough time if things are constantly spread out and MoF will not. Sadly, the rest of the team is going to have a hard time when things are spread out too. Only the MoF doesn't suffer.
What confuses me the most is when all this is pointed out to some MoF players their only response is that Sudden Storm and Chilling Control are over powered. This, to me, is an admission that they know they are doing everything worse and simply do not care about that. It's a fact you can clear all the content with a MoF and do quite well. That is not in despute. However MoF is in no way value added over having a Spellstorm. Two Spellstorm will perform better than a MoF and a Spellstorm paired, and that's a problem Cryptic might want to address sooner rather than later.
Warning: TL;DR material below.
'Now Spacejew, you're just being a jerk and showing off your e-peen!' you might say. Well, I'd be the first to say that I am definitely not the best player in Neverwinter. Not even close, I'd imagine. I certainly don't have the highest gear score, the most pets, or the nicest toys. I'm a F2P player all the way. That being said, I play the game a lot. Even then, not as much as some other people have but I've got easily over a thousand hours under my belt.
Now, why would I say such a thing about MoF? Why, they care about their team more than spellstorm do right? Wrong. Plenty of MoF play to maximize their own damage just as much as a Spellstorm does it's just less obvious because it's much, much worse damage. Not only that, but since most MoF don't wear, or get as much play out of, the HV set it's even worse. Wearing sets like Shadow Weaver or Champion Mage are measurably worse than High Vizier's for team play yet many MoF will claim otherwise even when the facts don't agree. (Although I will fully admit that even most Spellstorm don't get the maximum benefit from the HV set. Some do though, and if you care about the team you'll know how to keep those HV stacks at max all the time.)
Lets look at rotations. You see, MoF doesn't have a clear rotation that helps the team. Most of them will use the following: CoI on Tab, Steal Time, Shard, Icy Terrain. Well, that's fine and dandy except this rotation doesn't keep anything gathered up for the damage dealers to hit them. If anything, it scatters them with the shardsplosion and keeps them spread out through Prone/freeze/stun. Not only that, but overlapping Steal Time and Freeze are going to negate the prone from Shard. As the final insult MoF is also going to freeze things slower. So much slower, in fact, that most targets will be dead before they freeze. (And this is before you even consider Oppressive Force and how much it scatters things. Smart players will fire it to the side of a group to nudge them all in one direction whereas morons will put it right in the middle. Ugh.)
Now, for a spellstorm what should you be using if you care about team synergy? Well, firstly I'd recommend using EF on Tab, Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Icy Terrain. This lets you gather targets for your team through repeated EF, hit more targets with your Sudden Storm, and keep things frozen with Sudden Storm + Chilling Control and Icy Terrain. This control is bar none better than any MoF setup you can slot. It absolutely does more damage, more control, and provides just as much survivability as the alternative even when the MoF in question is entirely built around personal damage.
Smolder is the least damaging DoT out of the various options. Storm Spell and Elemental Empowerment both do more damage than Smolder even with Swath of Destruction. So losing out on that particular DoT is not as big of a loss as people make it out to be. On top of that Smolder has an inherent limitation of one tick per second. That might not seem like a big deal but Storm Spell can proc multiple times per second and even while it's slightly less reliable it does easily twice the amount of damage. Mathematically that works out to Spellstorms favor in every situation.
When push comes to shove it is blatantly obvious to anyone that has played both spec's that there isn't a single thing that MoF does better. In fact, it does consistently worse in every possible way. This is why MoF like to point at team debuff as their main contribution but even that is simply false. You see, MoF can be rigged to debuff more targets than, say, a DC but it also can't keep those targets in a position for anyone to damage those targets. On top of that they're not wearing HV so they automatically do less debuff even with a Terror and Swath. So they are uselessly debuffed for less than the alternative, tossed around for a reduction in team damage, controlled less, and damaged for less.
On top of all these reasons it's also hard to ignore that if you do only care about personal damage MoF still falls flat even though MoF's encounters are ultimately suited more to damage than Spellstorm's are when you figure the lack of extra control. (Presumably an encounter that only does damage should do more damage than one that does both. Not so in Neverwinter.)
Consider FtF, which is the MoF version of Sudden Storm. It has a cap of 8 targets vs. unlimited targets, no CC attached vs. strong CC attached, ticks over time vs. up-front burst, and lastly encourages the player to use encounters that spread targets since ultimately it doesn't matter to the MoF if things are more spread out. While MoF is easier to play, it's only easier because there is less of a downside to careless play. A spellstorm will have a tough time if things are constantly spread out and MoF will not. Sadly, the rest of the team is going to have a hard time when things are spread out too. Only the MoF doesn't suffer.
What confuses me the most is when all this is pointed out to some MoF players their only response is that Sudden Storm and Chilling Control are over powered. This, to me, is an admission that they know they are doing everything worse and simply do not care about that. It's a fact you can clear all the content with a MoF and do quite well. That is not in despute. However MoF is in no way value added over having a Spellstorm. Two Spellstorm will perform better than a MoF and a Spellstorm paired, and that's a problem Cryptic might want to address sooner rather than later.
MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
Post edited by spacejew on
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MoF is dependant on 2 feats, spellstorm just one(you DON'T need EotS). Slot orb of imposition and you're a better contribution for the entire party. MoF has to suffer in order to slot it.
Still will never understand why they nerfed FtF as it was already meh.
I read this, and I know you are upset about how us MOF players think. That's fine man.
Luckily i was finally able to link your forum account with your game account XD. I think you're a good player and i enjoy playing with you so that's reason one for not getting into another long debate here on the forums.
Secondly, I think you and I and several trolls have been having this discussion for the last six or eight months. I am very, very tired of it man. I find it exhausting.
I laid out in my guide, in grotesque detail (with pictures too!) about all the benefits of MOF, some of which you discount in here. I know you are aware of them, so I will respectfully not repeat them again. I think we, as players, have a natural bias for burst damage and personal damage instead of sustained damage and team damage. Also remember that you were using a vorpal (which honestly underperforms on MOF), and I am using a terror.
Secondly, when someone refreshes rimfire, credit is given to the person who refreshes the DOT, not the one who started the DOT. This means when a SS runs with a MOF, 5-10% of the SS's damage is smolder, a significant boost in everyone's DPS comes from swath too, which if the tooltip is correct, is as good as 3 stacks of greater plaguefire. Let's not discount these things so easily.
I know you like entangle on tab, which is very mod 1/mod 0 of you. I think this was great for slower clears, but it has almost no damage, does not build chill, has a target limit of five, and roots you while you are casting. Personally, i think it has been nerfed to a PvP spell. Ok we pulled what? 20-30 mobs, I am going to stand still, get hit, and slightly gather up five of them for a half a second. I can't imagine a situation where i would rather have this than COI. COI: more damage, more duraction, more chill stacks, more targets - basically everything about COI is better.
I agree that gathering mobs is important - that's why we have furious immolation, which is _marvelous_ at this job. The damage here is pretty good, and it adds smolder to everything, and then we all pound our rotations and kill them. This suffers the same problem that sing has now, target limit 8. It's just too **** low for most of the pulls we do at the moment.
Singularity, back when it was target limit 15, was amazing! That did all the gathering we needed. Now a days, everyone uses OF, why? target limit again. If I pull 30 mobs, why do i spend a daily to control 30% of them, especially a daily with a long cast time, and a wind up time where the mobs can still hit me. Personally i think FI is better than sing in just about every way possible.
Now, let's assume that even i won this argument, and considering all these factors MOF is winning by a bit, ok? The best argument for spellstorm is chilling control, where sudden storm adds chill. Sudden storm is the highest damage encounter a CW has, doesn't suffer the target limit issues of other spells, but can be harder to use and has the rooting problem. You'll notice i despise things that root me, because i play with a lot of movement (and desire more so i can solo draco. I tried, i really did).
Now if sudden storm had no control, it would be perfectly balanced. I don't think you would be posting this here if that was the case.
The problem is chilling control. IMO this feat is OP and broken. Everyone said the old TT was OP, maybe it was, but this feat is the equivalent of feating tyrannical threat to have a 3 second stun. If there is one real, solid argument why SS is better than MOF it is the chilling control feat. It's actually an argument for just not playing any other class and running parties of 5SS CW.
That said, some people like playing MOF better. I certainly do. I remember the day i switched entangle on tab with conduit on tab. I was so happy. I just never liked that spell.
I also remember switching to MOF. I loved the smolder mechanic, i love furious immolation. I love NOT having the pressure to unload in EOTS, and honestly i _never_ liked using sudden storm. Even when i was spellstorm i didn't use it. Even if it's OP i'm not going to use it. It makes my playing experience unpleasant, it makes how i move around the dungeon more difficult, I can't spin my camera the way i want to because of the targeting system so i see less of what's going on around me, and on top of that I'm _rooted_ while I'm casting it.
That said, I love how i play, i enjoy it greatly. Other people enjoy my specs greatly too. We are very effective CWs. I struggle absolutely nowhere in this game. Yes, i can't solo TOS, yes I can't solo draco (yet), and i haven't soloed EDV (but i can and will soon), but 5 man content is a joke to me. Even solo CN, just hit everything with IT, Shard, OF, conduit, they all get smolder, die as they run after you, pull the whole dungeon while lifesteal/defense/HP keeps you up through tons of hits. I mean, except for those nuke attacks, I don't even have to dodge things. If it doesn't have a stun, i can just eat it, probably better than my GF can.
I don't like fixating on DPS either, so you'll play SS, and I'll play MOF. You'll probably win paingiver, i'll probably apply more debuffs, it's difficult to parse out that share on ACT (honestly), so who knows if it's 50/50 or not, but honestly who cares? we are having a good time, we are plowing down content, and I bet you can I could go duo CN no prob.
So anyway, appreciate the criticism and comments. Think your thoughts are good. I don't think either of us will convince each other, but i don't actually care, bro. You play the way you like to play, I play the way i like to play, and let's kick some *** together.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Let me point out just a few issues:
1. Not wearing High Vizier
There's nothing stopping the MoF CW from using HV. It can use it just as well as an SS CW does. You can find people wearing 2/2 set, DR set, MC set, and other BS among SS CWs too. That said there is a really good reason for not using HV even as an SS, if you're running with the same team 90%+ of the time, since then your build is optimized for that team composition and if you have 3 CWs in a party it's actually better for the party if you have 2 HV + SW/Draconic. The SW set is pretty self explanatory, +18% crit severity to the entire team most of the time, or almost 100% of the time if you work around the ICD. The Draconic set provides a +10% RSI, which will allow you to spam encounters faster, which also increases the DPS even though it's not that easy to observe than the SW set and requires a team that's used to playing together to maximize it's effectiveness.
2. Spreading everything out / SotEA / no debuff
SotEA is and always was a very bad encounter, it's only saving grace was it's huge damage, which is now gone, so anyone still using SotEA in a party is just plain bad.
A MoF CW will actually speed up the runs for multiple reasons:
a. A MoF CW using the correct load-out can spam dailies faster, in AoE situations, than a SS CW with a legendary DC artifact can. And they have a very fast daily that does the same thing as singu, without sloving down the run, that's Furious Immolation. FI has a much faster animations than singu, you can damage the mobs during FI, so it doesn't mess with the other CWs DPS, and it's packs mobs up tighter than singu ever could.
b. Applying smolder is very easy and smolder debuffs mobs, increasing everyone's DPS by 15%, plus it can be turned into rimefire, which is another 5%+ of every CW's DPS in the party since the damage is counted for the CW that activated it by adding a chill stack to the mob afflicted with smolder and not the MoF CW who applied the smolder in the first place. So smolder is a 15%-20% DPS boost to the entire party. And that on top of the HV set bonus if (s)he's wearing one. So a MoF CW has more debuffs than a SS CW. Also since i'm not forced to using my DC artifact for buffing my AP gain, i can use my Lantern.
Having a good MoF CW + debuff DC in your party will allow your Sudden Storm to hit for 150k+.
3. Damage
Smolder is far from being the lowest damaging DoT. The DoT with the highest damage is actually the rimefire smolder. 2nd highest is creeping frost, while the 3rd is smolder. Neither Assailant, nor Spell Storm is a DoT.
As for MoF CWs still caring about their own DPS, ofc they do, they are still CWs and still damage dealers. If you unslot Spell Storm, a good MoF CW will actually outdps an equally geared and skilled SS CW. The only reason why SS CWs are doing more damage in SS. FtF + smolder + rimefire smolder more than makes up for loosing Sudden Storm.
MoF & SS CW are two different beast, you need to play them differently, if you play a MoF CW as you would play an SS CW you will be a bad MoF, the same is true for the other way around.
Why i've switched to MoF after playing SS for more than a year?
2 reasons:
1. Most of the time i'm running with the same couple of ppl and my build is highly optimized for that team, and the runs are actually faster with me being a MoF instead of a SS CW. I do pug sometimes, when i'm really bored, and i can tell you that in pugs it doesn't matter if i'm an SS or MoF, i'll still be outdamaging 99% of the pugs, even as a MoF.
2. It's more fun to play as a MoF. Mod 4 took the fun out of the SS CW, at least for me. Sure, a SS CW can do more damage than a similarly geared & skilled MoF can do, but having to use the same rotation no matter what, is not my idea of fun. As an SS CW, if you want to maximize your damage, you are forced to use an AoE rotation in single target fights too, to be able to proc SS and have top DPS. SS CWs are now forced to use a single load-out no matter what, if you try to use anything else, your DPS will suffer.
Yes, that's the reason. I put visual preferences in a pedestal.
I'm game. Both are my 'ideal' builds that I commonly use. As you can see, they are quite close on 3 targets until you start looking at the source and application. For instance, while Smolder will do more damage the more targets you are fighting so does Sudden Storm.
Nothing comes close to the burst off Sudden Storm, and you don't even want to see the image of what a damage rotation from Spellstorm ends up looking like. *shrug*
Both rely on damage proc's for the vast majority of damage done but even in that department Storm Spell is rocking it. In this situation, in actual play, the MoF is spreading add's out and the Spellstorm is condensing them. This is, in my opinion, one of the most important differences there is.
Last point, and it's one of the more important one's, this assumes that Rimefire is allowed to tick. In actual play this spellstorm would be lapping the MoF by several million damage. Sure, the MoF could have done more if only those creatures would have lived a few minutes longer. That's kind of the issue with MoF and late-game play. There are really only so many enemy HP to go around.
Spellstorm with HV Set / Vorpal 3178 avg.
MoF with CM Set / Vorpal 2136 avg.
FtF in Tab, CoI, Steal Time, Icy Terrain. Got it. (And yes, actually, this is what I usually use for as much up-front damage as I can.)
Champion Mage Set / Vorpal 1699 avg.
HV Set / Vorpal 1884 avg.
Anywho that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Concentrating things in a tiny death ball is better than throwing them all over gods green Earth. Learn it. Use it. Your team will love you and you'll still out damage any MoF that you come across with way less gear score.
MoF is providing very strong buffs. MoF passives upgraded in Mod4.
But:
Almost everybody is using the cookie cutter SS build.
We are already outdpsed by Sws in every corner so we try to maximize dps.
We are constantly playing and testing SS making it a better one and rarely take a look on MoF. So its a mystery for some ppl.
Some MoF damage registered to others.
Somone mentioned old TT. If TT damage had been registered to its original caster on paingiver noone would have had a problem with it.
MoF already has that built-in.
That's not your story. Your story is that MoF CWs use Shard, therefore they suck.
That story is false.
That's exactly what I'm doing is respeccing and switching sets. I don't know what numbers you're throwing out because the Spellstorm was about 1000 average damage ahead of MoF while using Entanging Force in tab.
Ah, fair enough. The total damage in the same period of time is indeed very close but this test already skews itself in the MoF's favor by assuming the thing has infinite HP.
Just three immobile, immortal wooden poles ^_-
HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
SW Soulbinder Fury
Not a bad option for a certain playstyle in certain dungeons. It'll certainly tide you over until you can get the DC artifact and respec into Spellstorm.
Also, if you're going to compare MoF and Spellstorm properly, you have to control for crit differences. Using a Spellstorm's 1.5k crit rating won't cut it for MoF.
Also, your argument about "MoF's suck because they don't use Entangle" is baloney. Nothing prevents any CW from using Entangle at any time. The reason why most CW's (both MoF and SS) don't use Entangle in Spell Mastery is, quite frankly, because the content doesn't require it. Personally - and I am by no means a high-end CW - I have not been in a group that needed such high levels of control that is required by Entangle in spell mastery, not since Mod 1.
Furthermore, I think chem's point about flexibility is very important. For maximum DPS, a Spellstorm Thaum *must* use CoI on Spell Mastery, Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Icy Terrain. There is very little reason to use anything else due to the reliance on Storm Spell procs. (Of course you are using Entangle in Spell Mastery, but you are gimping your own DPS by doing that. And if you're going to play the DPS-focused paragon path, again, why do that?) For MoF Thaum, while it's often a good idea to have CoI on Spell Mastery, it's not absolutely mandatory. I will switch it to Fanning the Flame on Spell Mastery for boss fights so that I can have near 100% smolder uptime. I don't have to always have CoI on tab, which is *good* for some boss fights (e.g. Epic Tuern), because CoI has a slow casting animation and I don't want to get stuck trying to cast it. For mob clearing I will use CoI on Tab, Icy Terrain, and Steal Time, in order to control and freeze and kill the adds. That fourth encounter slot, however, can be flexible depending on the needs of the party. In Epic Tuern skirmish I will use Entangle, to immobilize one of the more dangerous adds before an encounter begins. If I need to switch to HV, I will use Chill Strike, because that gives an instant 2 stacks of HV. I will use Shield in Epic LOL due to all the prones. And there's nothing stopping a MoF CW from using Entangle in Spell Mastery if the party demands high levels of control. This is all possible because the MoF CW is not so utterly reliant on Storm Spell procs. Instead MoF CW's *are* reliant on Smolder, so they must have high crit chances and pretty much always have Critical Conflagration. But *that* doesn't lock MoFs into a specific encounter set always every time.
Finally it seems your big issue isn't really about MoF vs SS but more about playstyle. Which is one reason why I asked the question earlier, "what is the measure of a successful CW"? If your answer to that question is "#1 on Paingiver" then yes, Vorpal Spellstorm CW is the only way to go. If your answer to that question, instead, is "Providing maximum positional control only" then yes, use Entangle in Spell Mastery. But I don't see myself in either of those two ways, I like being able to debuff the room with Smolder so that others, who are no doubt better than me, can do their jobs more effectively. That's totally okay with me.
Maybe I'll start a post entitled "Why Spellstorm CWs are Arrogant Selfish Pricks" and complain that they just run ahead to try to hog all the DPS just to earn #1 on Paingiver. While *some* CWs do this, it's not because of the class, it's because of the jerk behind the keyboard.
Both were run with 2200 critical rating with a vorpal at 15k GS. If it's a set I use the stat ratings are going to be pretty close to one another. You want to prove me wrong? Man up and post your own ACT parses. I did. (Oh, and Assailant can proc off the lame Warerat poison. ^_- )
So the part where I pointed out a Spellstorm can use control encounters to better effect while doing more damage went right over your head I suppose. Oh well, plenty of people are going to fail to understand what I'm talking about here.
Maybe but as I've shown a Spellstorm can use control encounters and still out damage a MoF build. Needed or not it does more damage and more control than anything you care to do with a MoF.
'Max DPS' is cute but Spellstorm can be 'flexible' and use control while still, again, doing more damage than any MoF setup you care to name. Even a straight up 'max damage' MoF build does less damage than the spellstorm using a 'suboptimal damage rotation'. That is exactly my point. I can do more damage than a MoF who is rigged for damage by using team-oriented control encounters. What is your point? That MoF is worse in every way? Congratulations we agree!
There is no benefit to MoF over Spellstorm. Spellstorm does everything better, as I have shown here. Basically, people disagree with that premise because they 'like' the MoF better and need to justify their lack of performance. That's fine but I'd like folks to realize that it is, in fact, worse in every measurable way.
You want to help your team? Control things while doing tons of damage. You won't need to justify yourself at the end of the dungeon because everyone will know you did amazing things for them. HV set > MoF debuff. End of story.
EF, Steal Time, Oppressive Force, Icy Terrain all work together to stack HV set while controlling and dealing damage. The rotation demands of the HV set will do far, far worse for a MoF so the choice is clear to those who care.
Reading Comprehension 101: "Reasons why MoF is Worse At Everything". I.E. MoF is still better than any other class for damage except perhaps for a few SW or GWF spec's. Not 'Suck at Everything', 'Worse at Everything'. Big difference dude. It isn't my fault you read 'worse' as 'suck'.
Laughably the MoF is also worse at debuffing unless you gimp your damage even more than you already are by being a MoF in the first place. The increase in team damage by doing so is far less than the personal damage sacrificed but believe what you must.
Spellstorm can maximize the debuff from HV while doing more personal damage and control than any MoF could hope to do. There's a period after that for a reason .
So now I'm an arrogant selfish prick for pointing out the obvious. Sure. Ok man. You are absolutely missing the entire point of this thread which is a Spellstorm helps out the team more in every possible way by using control and damage to set up team damage. But whatever, you clearly haven't tried it and don't care too even though I've done exactly what you asked and posted up parse information for both MoF and Spellstorm.
How about you parse yourself and do the tests I've done to prove me wrong? Or do you just like making baseless arguments with no supporting evidence whatsoever while demanding others show their work? Whatever Pointsman. I'm done with you. ^_^
Have respect for a lot of the opinions here.
I play a MOF with a perfect terror, I have absolutely no issues with everything.
Yes, i use shard, yes it spreads everything out, so does oppressive force, but you know what? I just kite to the next mob, they walk over my IT and the mobs group themselves because i manage their aggro well.
There is defiantly a way to use this rotation and not suffer control nor gimp your team DPS, but there is a lot of positioning involved, aggro management involved, proper kiting etc... Most CWs don't do this, and it's very hard to teach writing here. I mentioned that in my guide.
Because of the movement of my playstyle, both entangle and sudden storm is sub-optimal for me, because of the root. I know shard takes two casts but you can drop it and move to push.
I know spacejew hates shard, and that's ok
The DPS difference here, we are talking like 5%, which could easily be due to different team composition, different play styles, different pulls, even a stun at the wrong time can change your DPS! So really, 5-10% variance is not statistically significant for just 2-3 runs.
Do SS/Thaum/Vorpal win paingiver more often, yes! but MOF contributes DPS to them through smolder and through swath. When you account for that, the difference is not nearly so much.
And yes, this morning in a SP run I out DPSed a 17.6k SS in HV with Vorpal, who was actually pretty good :S.
That said guys, let's not argue over pennies here. These are both excellent builds. Personally i think except for the sudden storm feat, SS is not better than MOF at all. If we were going to argue that SS is better than MOF, that feat is the read point of difference.
That said, in spacejew's playstyle, he is more sucessful playing as a SS, so he should play spellstorm. In my playstyle, i am more sucessful playing MOF, so I should play MOF. You know what? That's fine and wonderful!
I think that gear, spec, playstyle, rotation, and whatnot should all be synergistic. We all have personalities and inclinations, so playstyle is very personal, which means to an extent our gear, spec and rotation must also be personal. Granted, some things are just bad, but if we are splitting hairs between two good options, just pick the one that suits you and enjoy yourself.
That's really my take on the issue. My MOF CW is great and i kickass on her. People who have followed my guides tend to be very happy and do well - that's great for them. There are also people who follow other guides and become happy and do well, and that's great for them too. I even referenced Stox's guide, which i would never play as, but it's good and I have a lot of respect for his work, ability, and research on the game.
That's really my two cents on this issue. I don't want to attack anyone personally because most of you are my friends.
I would be glad to help any of you play your CWs better, even if you want to play spellstorm.
Best of everything, Chem.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Humility is a wonderful learning tool. Arrogance and condescension are not. Those stop the learning process in its tracks. Instead of asking why other people (who may have done a large amount more of investigation into game mechanics than you) may run Master of Flame and trying to figure out what they know that you may not, you have instead chosen to assume that you already know better than they all there is to know about their class and condescendingly wag your finger at them. As I read through your post I started storing up errors you had made that needed correction. As the list of errors in understanding of the game built up, I came to realize that you just don't have a good grasp of what you're talking about. Your ACT parses confirm that you don't know what you're doing. You may be a very intelligent person, but you are lacking in knowledge. The dead giveaway is that you are highlighting the "average" damage column for Spellstorm and MoF and using that as a point of comparison between Spellstorm and MoF. This is a horrendous error. What you need to look at is EncDPS. That is, the damage done per second throughout the encounter. The "average" column is just total damage divided by the number of damage ticks. So if two classes that have equal damage output but one does so through lots of smaller hits, and the other through fewer larger hits then the first will have a lower "average" damage even though both do damage at the same rate. That you are unaware of this is a very big red flag indicating ignorance. Someone who hits for 100 damage 10 times per second is just as effective as someone who hits for 1000 damage once per second. The final parse you had showed that the MoF build was doing 19,448 damage per second. Your preferred Spellstorm damage was doing 19,612 damage per second. About equal. Even with this staring you in the face you blew right past it and persisted in your belief that Spellstorm outdamages MoF by a wide margin. Confirmation bias at its worst.
Here's my MoF build on three test dummies in the Trade of Blades.
As you can see it does 42,308 damage per second. I was able to do nearly 8 million damage in 3 minutes with this build and spell rotation. This build pumps out damage 2.15 times faster than your preferred Spellstorm build. If I were running a dungeon this build would also buff the damage of the rest of the party significantly as it does tremendous debuffing to the targets (look at the far right column - about a 60% debuff). I would show you the full parse and explain the full build so you could see just where all of the damage comes from, except then you might learn something. And I am not going to reward your arrogance with knowledge.
And for the record, I'm a Spellstorm CW.
another super secret top-notch MoF build? guys, where do you hide your hunky-dory? i wanna get to that Wonderland as well!
no, really. after 1000+ runs i was outdpsed a few dozens of times and guess by whom? not a MoF. i do really-really love to take my guildies-MoF with me in any dungeon. i believe such synergy contributes a lot to a party performance. but twice as my damage without counting double of my debuffs? really want to look at that. hope you'll be able to make a run with me this weekend. i'll msg you ingame. cheers
yes, that's the reason. i've read everything very carefully. many of my friends tried to make a high-dps/debuff MoF. unfortunately they didn't succeed. presumably 18k gs and more than a year of wizard playing isn't enough. that's why i want to see it live from the founding fathers.
About equal with a control rotation versus a damage rotation. Or call it whatever you want the Spellstorm parse was using Entangling Force in Tab. So about equal still? I could make it do quite a lot more if I didn't care about control. I can't really say the same about MoF.
Sure thing dude, it's like the pot calling the kettle black. I'm always willing to listen to evidence but not clipped out evidence. ^_^
If you want to provide a link or a full picture of your parse feel free but until then you'll forgive me if I chalk up the differences in your parse to power difference and primary weapon. (Your highest tick of Smolder would seem to confirm as much actually.)
Since you only include one parse specifically for MoF and not your flipside Spellstorm...well again you'll just have to forgive me for not taking your word that your MoF build functions better than your Spellstorm build. Isn't that your point here?