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Ideas about a CW from a CW
yukimaru153
Member Posts: 173 Arc User
Hi,
This is not truly a rage message but none the less it may travel a rough path. Mainly this is about the new patch or balance so to speak as well as a few general things that I have noticed. 1. This will kill the oppressor for the most part because people rolled it with the intention of giving up some power for control. 2. You are giving no buffs for the aspects that you are taking away. In any true balance there is give and take. But it seems rather traditional at the moment in mod 4 to take yet not give.
This is a very similar route that of which the ren cw went. The nerfing of eye of the storm and magic missile made a crit dependent class useless not to mention arcane stack building (long story but people who have played ren know what I mean. It takes a hell of a lot longer to build arcane stacks than chill). The procs of the renegade cw does not occur as often as that of a thum cw (mainly Chaos Magic everything else is so-so). All of this I have tested on the test server as well as on live. To sum it up you have 2 paragon paths of cw that no one will play at endgame. Why? 1. oppressors damage was never great just excellent control. The control to damage ration now will be lessen substantially so no one will play this. Why give up damage for nothing more than any other paragon path can do? 2. Ren buffs are not needed nor can it put out the damage to make it offset. Not to mention its lack of hard hitting passives like that of the Thum CW.
With all of this said what you are creating is a flat out "play thum CW or else". I'm sure this is not the intention but it is what it is. The facts are it is and will continue to be the only reasonable path to follow at end game. Over all to me what the dev team has done really does not make sense. All of the complaints about the cw's damage in the past is not realistic. And as with 99% of mmos out there mage's deal most of the damage. Due to the trade off of low defense and survivability as well as the aspect of crowd control. In a single target battle not so much. As it should be. Here you have the low defense and god knows the survivability is exceptionally low. But you are allowing other classes to deal more damage without giving up anything. Not going to call them out because my goal is not to make a "nerf this class instead" message. It is for you to actually think about what the factors are for a cw. If your going to take away control, or dps which is life and death for a cw then give us something back in return. Make all the changes you feel necessary but to have a "balance" is give and take. To always take and give nothing is just nerfing.
Please note I'm not saying that any of the following changes are not necessary. What I am saying is that you have put in place current dungeon mechanics that hit exceptionally hard and mobs that deal very high damage. If your taking away some aspects to control than either the damage should be raised for cws (all paragon paths except for thum. reason being is because the damage is already where it should be. Its the opp. and ren that are stuck out of the damage party) or raise the survivability or the class as a whole. Just my thoughts and nothing more.
This is not truly a rage message but none the less it may travel a rough path. Mainly this is about the new patch or balance so to speak as well as a few general things that I have noticed. 1. This will kill the oppressor for the most part because people rolled it with the intention of giving up some power for control. 2. You are giving no buffs for the aspects that you are taking away. In any true balance there is give and take. But it seems rather traditional at the moment in mod 4 to take yet not give.
This is a very similar route that of which the ren cw went. The nerfing of eye of the storm and magic missile made a crit dependent class useless not to mention arcane stack building (long story but people who have played ren know what I mean. It takes a hell of a lot longer to build arcane stacks than chill). The procs of the renegade cw does not occur as often as that of a thum cw (mainly Chaos Magic everything else is so-so). All of this I have tested on the test server as well as on live. To sum it up you have 2 paragon paths of cw that no one will play at endgame. Why? 1. oppressors damage was never great just excellent control. The control to damage ration now will be lessen substantially so no one will play this. Why give up damage for nothing more than any other paragon path can do? 2. Ren buffs are not needed nor can it put out the damage to make it offset. Not to mention its lack of hard hitting passives like that of the Thum CW.
With all of this said what you are creating is a flat out "play thum CW or else". I'm sure this is not the intention but it is what it is. The facts are it is and will continue to be the only reasonable path to follow at end game. Over all to me what the dev team has done really does not make sense. All of the complaints about the cw's damage in the past is not realistic. And as with 99% of mmos out there mage's deal most of the damage. Due to the trade off of low defense and survivability as well as the aspect of crowd control. In a single target battle not so much. As it should be. Here you have the low defense and god knows the survivability is exceptionally low. But you are allowing other classes to deal more damage without giving up anything. Not going to call them out because my goal is not to make a "nerf this class instead" message. It is for you to actually think about what the factors are for a cw. If your going to take away control, or dps which is life and death for a cw then give us something back in return. Make all the changes you feel necessary but to have a "balance" is give and take. To always take and give nothing is just nerfing.
Please note I'm not saying that any of the following changes are not necessary. What I am saying is that you have put in place current dungeon mechanics that hit exceptionally hard and mobs that deal very high damage. If your taking away some aspects to control than either the damage should be raised for cws (all paragon paths except for thum. reason being is because the damage is already where it should be. Its the opp. and ren that are stuck out of the damage party) or raise the survivability or the class as a whole. Just my thoughts and nothing more.
Post edited by yukimaru153 on
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Comments
If the control aspect is better than Thaum, then damage would logically be less than the Thaum, right?
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
After I woke back up following being knocked out when this wall of text fell on me, what I read was:
"CW Thaum DPS needs to be buffed because...reasons."
Did I get that more or less right?
The point is that in practice with these kind of changes Oppressor doesn't control better than Thaum in any meaningful way, yet Thaum out damages Opp in a very measurable way.
Not even close, but wall of text is a reasonable excuse.
An Oppressor could perma-freeze mobs and serve in a support role. I am an Oppressor, and I did a SP run with another CW Oppressor. The mobs barely moved, they were all more-or-less permanently frozen. It was kinda fun, actually.
Now, however, that can't happen anymore. So why take an Oppressor?
Thaum already had access to the great sudden storm trait.
Oppressor still gets the extra shattered stun after freeze for 5 seconds. That's significant, maybe more so now that things won't be frozen constantly.
Agreed, which is what lead me to making this post. Its really sad because they killed the ren cw off at the start of mod 4 now the opp is going back into the void like mod 3.
No. I stated the opposite. Thaum damage is fine its the other paths that need help. However im starting to get the point the devs have obviously wanted me to see long time ago. "go play thaum, the other choices are just there to troll you" >.>
Okay, unlike most people when talking about their class I'm not ashamed to admit when something is crazy XD. But yea! It is awesome freezing mobs till you get tired with another opp cw XD. But...I did notice that my damage was craptacular lol XD Still it is fun! And no one really cares that your damage is bad! OMG its an mmo first a class that can just support and be respected for it!!! "devs: we cant have that! People may actually stop worrying about burning everything to the ground and actually learn how to time cd with team mates to keep a mob immobilized". Seriously though it is kinda crazy freezing mobs to infinity in lower lvl dungeon but in the new ones....oh hell yea its needed. So I'm curious what are they going to do for cws to help us live in the new one shot paradise.....
Yes. Renegades, and maybe Oppressors, need a significant DPS boost to stay competitive with Thaums and other classes.
I see it now, sorry. I quite literally did lose your point in that wall. My wife, the Oppressor-spec CW, will not be happy about a nerf if one does in fact happen
You take it for the stun on top of freeze. Yes I'm sure it's fun to perma-freeze entire dungeons (which you can basically do today with a Thuam anyway with the sudden storm feat) and make the content into a complete joke, but it's not good for the game.
A control-spec CW SHOULD be able to perma-freeze entire dungeons, BUT have less DPS than one that isn't control specced.
Wasn't that the big complaint about CWs in mod 3? That they were DPS Wizards and not CONTROL Wizards?
Why do you want to take the CONTROL away from CONTROL Wizards? Because you might lose to one in a PVP match?
1. Hamlet is a CW
2. That was funny, I'd like to see an oppressor in PVP
3. Nobody is crying about oppressors, devs obviously added that in for PvE because in PvP everyone (except GFs who are crying about chill) Is crying about damage
4. LOL you said Control Wizards..... *AutoProc Wizards
Hamlet is an HR who rolled a CW just because it's currently the FOTM (or will be until tomorrow). He consistently argues for CW nerf after CW nerf every single time it comes up.
And you obviously have no clue about CWs and how they function in PVE, so perhaps you should get back to what you do know about, roflstomping pugs in lopsided PVP matches.
I actually had my CW before my HR but that's besides the point.
No it's still not OK to freeze entire dungeons single-handedly because it ruins the game. And you're not doing THAT much less damage than Thaum. You're still out-dpsing by far most of the classes in the entire game with your "Pure Support".
I argue for CW nerfs because they ruin the PVE in this game. Nobody needs or wants any of the other 6 out of 7 classes when CWs can do everything on their own, and it's been that way since I started playing.
I argue for nerfs in PVP because they're just as OP as HRs and they nag about HRs all day so it's only fair to remind them that they too are OP as hell.
A) Nightmare Wizardry needs it's tool-tip updated to reflect it's new and utterly garbage 5% proc chance. It's still lying and claiming it's 20% which disagree's with the update and patch notes as well as ACT parse's.
Renegade used to be at least useful for MoF: Now it's a no brainer. Thaumaturge or go home. Nightmare Wizardry and Phantasmal Destruction together are less useful than just Frozen Power Transfer. This makes no sense.
Ahh we have a person that has played a ren CW ^^. I agree with you 100% but even fixing that would just be a start with helping the ren path. Lots of things would have to be looked at such as combat damage its self. Its something thats suppose to be a heck of a lot stronger than it is, and its not. Chaos magic is kinda a still what tha flip kinda skill, god the list goes on about the ren cw and fixes needed XD
And this is the biggest problem I have with this game. Is that it tries to balance pve because of pvp. Okay I do understand that people enjoy pvp in an mmo thats totally about running dungeons and killing dragons (pun intended)..... But to argue that cws are killing pvp while your an HR and some of the reasoning you added made it sound like "please stop one of the few classes that can still do something with my HR" because you know full and well what HR's do to people in PVP cw's included if caught off guard..... I didn't want this to turn into a "this class can do this while others can't post" because to me that helps no one. Controlling a mob means just that. What you stated about an opp cw being not far behind a thaum is totally false. There is a huge gap between them. Hell even the devs know this and that part I'm sure was intended due to its control power. As it should be. No they should not take out the freezing. If so then there are tons of things other classes should not have but do....
Currently a 5% chance to proc is so small, even when stacking DoT's and overlapping damage powers, that it virtually never goes off. Even when it does that's a 5% chance per target. The higher your gear score, the worse this becomes since eventually they will be dead in one rotation with an effectively zero rate of return on this feat pairing.
If they are going to leave the proc chance on these two feats at 5% Nightmare Wizardry needs to go off in an AoE around the target or it is absolutely useless in PvE or PvP.
Oppressor is a separate issue, but frankly I do not think it's worth losing out on 15 million damage to keep things locked down for an extra second or two. Perhaps with the chill changes that will change, but I doubt it. Death is very effective crowd control after all and Shatter Strike literally can not proc faster than things can freeze.
Maybe at lower gear score without any enchants Oppressor can be useful but I got really tierd of the Freeze/Shatter Strike overlap and realized I could just use Freeze without Shatter Strike and be more effective. Nothing that I've seen has changed my mind about this, but again we will see after the Chill nerf.
I strongly suspect that Orb by itself will probably make the entire Oppressor feat line a wasted effort when paired up with simply freeze.
People thought the renegade tree was good, so in Mod 0 ppl all went renegade, then we tested and thaum was just better, but not by much.
Renegade is so crit dependent that it makes no sense for MoF cw, we tested that too and it wasn't good. So all MoF PvE go thaum.
Oppressor is mainly a pvp path now, idk how this will change it for pvp, but for PvE, especially with multi cw, no reason for oppressor.
We have also outgrown the content too, the mobs aren't strong enough to need all that freeze.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I don't consider the freeze fix a PVP fix since you can kill most people in PVP without freezing them twice. I think it's intended to discourage CW stacking in PVE.
The "huge gap" isn't between Oppressor and Thaum, it's between any CW and any other class (besides SW), and it's still a problem even with this fix because who cares if stacking CWs means less control- other classes can't control better nor do better dps.
I'm not sure if we are playing the same game now. Since m4 I've been doing dungeons ( VT, CN, ToS, FH etc) with TRs, HRs, GFs, GWFs, DCs, SWs. The only thing that would make any of these classes unwanted was gear score. I have NEVER saw ANYONE complaining about particular class being invited to party because of their class alone. You must be really unlucky or your information is outdated. I don't know if you PvE more often then PvP. I'm skipping PvP for a while and am doing PvE predominantly. I know what I see, and I simply cannot agree with you.
I agree with you again. And yep I rolled an opp after being a ren in mod 3. Once again you are correct. Even at 18.4 gs vs lesser gs thaum its like half the damage. Which is why i dont understand the complaining. My thoughts are the same as always. This is another pvp fix that effect pve. In a game that mostly supports PVE which makes no sense. The trade off for opp is there. Little damage max control. I did it to be a support and well honestly....was kinda fun turning stuff into icicle xD. Ehh I'm done really trying to offer suggestions because the devs just listen to the complaints and not look at the actually issues. I have tried on numerous occasions to offer thoughts without putting anyone or class down but that is not effective here. Back on topic you are right. However the issue with ren is deep. The combat advantage damage does not give much incentive as it should. If it did combined with PD it would probably over take thaum. However combat advantage damage is not something just limited to cw's its a game wide issue = no fix incoming soon. Requires more work.....
Agreed 100% XD. Although it is true that a cw is favored for many reason for runs its not like we are the lord and god of NW. Were to squishy to be even with some running around with 50k hp its kinda a joke because there's no def or deflect to back it up. Its like a big bug waiting for the right shoe to step on it XD
I kinda agree. The ren is crit dependent as all outdoors (kinda crazy that we notice that yet the devs didn't when nerfing EoS XD) But it was competitive with thaum in mod 2/3 just took more work and actually placing stats where they needed to be. Now its just useless. Opp can be useful in runs where the gs is not super elite because that would create a lack of dps so the mobs being frozen helps buy time for the party. As well as say a lesser geared tanker to get their hp up a bit. There were advantages to playing other classes but it seems as though its go thaum or go home....which is really sad in the long run but ehh its just how it is.