But then, a nerf is a nerf, and given the situation before nerf was an overall minus for gwf, then clearly after the nerf the situation can only be a guaranteed loss against whatever other class.
Still hard to figure why mod4 did not come with a free rebirth-your-gwf-into-SW
If you have no chance against those classes you should just go PacMan because this is clearly beyond your scope!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
But then, a nerf is a nerf, and given the situation before nerf was an overall minus for gwf, then clearly after the nerf the situation can only be a guaranteed loss against whatever other class.
Still hard to figure why mod4 did not come with a free rebirth-your-gwf-into-SW
I gotta say: I used to be one of the ones who critiquized the new nerfs on gwf, but now everything is just fine! ^^ Since i got enough AD to afford my Plague fire enchant and geared up with some BI, i honestly used to do 15 kills each pvp and no death! Maybe because of broken matchmaking that makes me fight weak players... but i keep getting first at each pvp score... my max kills was 29 and 6 deaths since mod4...
my build? Total focus on damage resistance and crits, so i'm good at both pvp and pve... Believe it or not i run a Destroyer build :P i don't understand people who go with sentinel, CD reduction and aditional damages are better... that doesn't mean that Sentinel is bad tho! The HUGE damage reduction when going on rage is awesome
I always win a 1 vs 1 unless if they had to pop their daily on me or got a perfect vorpal :P
Kuhaku-NGNL-
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
''One does Not Simply Win Against a Perfect Vorpal CW''
I think you guys fail at playing GWF. Since mod 4 I never lost against a HR of cource you need a bit luck to land your stun and you win against 99% of all HRs. If you lose against TRs you should delete your GWF. TR's cant do dmg unless they hit DF so if they manage to land DF use ibs and sure strike and they will go down...
I watched a GWF take on all comers yesterday in Gaunt and this guy destroyed most of the takers (exception was a Dwarf GF). Literally with his gear and perfect vorpal he tore people's *** up. As this guy said, if your losing to HR or even TR, delete and find a class that works better for you. There is nothing wrong with GWF, it's a learn to play this class issue.
I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.
As said before the people that were complaining about the nerfs were the people used to smashing buttons and killing everyone and surviving 3 players damage. Now with the changes They are who we thought they were!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
indeed now pvp is "a little bit" tactic sided for a GWF! He's fine now and we request no changes, we are completely balanced now even if this game can be really gear sided from time to time... i'm playing since beta, not planning on giving up yet!
For those who want my build i can't say it's special, I'm not running a specific Destroyer build, it's all about thinking offensive while trying to get some resistance... mostly gear based build... Send me a letter or pm me as my main Kuhaku-NGNL- i may give you some tips.
The only question i'm asking for the moment: Why are you guys saying that Destroyer is not viable anymore for pvp?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
''One does Not Simply Win Against a Perfect Vorpal CW''
I think most say Destroyer isn't viable for PvP anymore is because it feels squishy. I find Destroyer to be really fun and good at doing our job. Most people come and cry about a class after changes because they are too used to/spoiled with the way things were.
For those who understand how to PvP, Destroyer is still fine, you just can't stand still CC, CC Kill anymore. You have to think defensively and act offensively.
Isn't the old saying "The best defense is a great Offense" ?
If you play Destro right and are always up in someones business then they are spending their time acting defensively but thinking offensively. Thinking of when can i hit this GWF and How will I kill him.
Destro GWF will ACT aggressive while thinking defensive. Always being in their face will pressure them, you are acting aggressive and they are expecting you to use encounters on them. Mean while you are just throwing at wills in their face to make them act defensive, and desperately try to hit you with CC and encounters etc. This is where thinking defensively comes in. Actively think about when to use a little bit of sprint, and realize you have to do it a little bit sooner than you would think, since there is a slight delay between when you hit shift and when you are granted Immunity.
Destro GWF is all about controlling the flow of the fight as best as you can. We all know what CWs, most other GWFs, GFs, TRs, and HRs are going to do in a fight.
And if you arent sure, then engage with the player and pay attention to what they are doing, in what order, and where they feel comfortable. Once you know their skills/rotations/comfortzone/have an idea of their build, you can deny them the important skills that they must land on you to win (CC's) and keep them out of their comfort zone (usually just be in their face ALWAYS) And always deal with any ranged people in the back line of your enemies team. That is now more so a GWF job than a TR one. Since we can get in their face and back to the node in a heartbeat over and over.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
The reason why nothing productive ever gets achieved with balance threads is because morons constantly refer to SITUATIONAL EXPERIENCES when they are talking about OVERALL BALANCE.
To ALL:
It is of absolutely no concern to the success of a balancing thread to say things like: "the other day I killed X class with my Y class" or "I saw X class do this vs. Y class" or ANYTHING similar. These remarks are nothing but BASELESS CLAIMS. They do nothing but warrant someone else to respond with the inverse version: "well I saw Y class do this to X class". It achieves nothing and it leads to devs getting an entirely inaccurate perception of the reality of PvP balance.
Class balance should only be discussed in terms of "all other things being equal". When gear, experience, build, and skill are all relatively equal, then we can begin to examine class imbalances. The truth is, this rarely ever happens in a Domination and I dare say has never happened in GG.
Basically, leave your subjective examples out of it. You simply have no idea what you're talking about or how to constructively contribute to a balancing thread.
I guess I will go delete my character now since some shmuck thinks that a GWF should never lose to an HR...
A lot of people get upset when PvPers start to bicker on the forums...not me. Mods are always shutting down or banning EXPERIENCED PVPers and their threads because it tends to get heated, at least these players know what they are talking about. Instead, they should be banning the uneducated n00bs who chime in and have absolutely no clue about what's really going on.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I agree with some of this but I would say that instead of the proposed nerfs, buff the following (which I think are quite reasonable)
-Give us back Deep Gash because in hindsight this was a misguided and unnecessary nerf. It doesn't have to be like it used to be, but it should be good.
-Give us back Student of the Sword because in hindsight this was a misguided and unnecessary nerf.
-Give us back Frontline Surge damage because in hindsight this nerf was only necessary at the time but after Mod 4 adjustments is no longer necessary at all.
Agree with all of this, and will add it would be most appropriate for PVE.
Not sure about this one. M4 GWF already has way more CC immunity through twitch sprints than any other class has with dodges. Sprint only adds DR instead of a true dodge but the GWF has higher base toughness than most other classes. GWF is also the only class with a encounter power that refills stamina, someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
And the following (which might be seen as a bit less reasonable )
-Give us a full 1:1 ratio on DEX to Deflect chance %
-Give us a 2:1 ratio on STR to DoT Dmg Resist %
Kind of a finisher like IBS, also one of a GWFs strongest single target encounters. Mark + TD + RS + IBS damage potential could be through the roof, and maybe a bit too much.
Would be an interesting gap closing addition to swordmasters, maybe they could use it in a feat tree. IV doesn't really need it. Would depend on activation time, Gap closer + Stun + fast activation time would be too strong.
The CW, GF, and HR have pulled significantly ahead of us in terms of PvP and in most ways, PvE now as well. With a TR and DC rework chalked up for the next module, I fear that the GWF will be left behind yet again. I fear even more that because we will be left behind, we will ultimately be buffed into some stupid God Mode class again somewhere down the line like what happened before. Something has to happen for this class and I believe it starts with undo-ing some of the unnecessary nerfs that this class suffered before the rework. I actually like the overall Mod 4 rework quite a bit, but its time to look at some of the Mod 2/3 nerfs and consider whether or not they are still needed.
Agree with all of this. I would also add Target lock + sprint on a GWF is beast. It can be difficult to find hot keys that work for you. I use U for target lock, I for sure strike, O for sprint, P for jump, B for threatening rush, G,H,N for encounter slots, and Q and 1 for dailies, thumb on mousepad for targeting. My fingers are always on target lock, sure strike or sprint(since you can't do both at the same time), one encounter, and jump.
I have already had people call me a hacker becuase of target lock!(CWs no less)
For all those kicking butt in M4 cheers, lets polish our skills.
you are WRONG: I.V. GWF is something near as "viable". The problem here is that S.M. is not "that" viable... for either PvE or PvP. DEVs need to focus a bit on S.M. paragon path too to make it really viable on both PvE and PvP.
I never tried SM in my life, i don't need the extra damage of flourish after nerf to beat someone, i can't help you telling you what to do with your actual build... BUT IV seems like the best build ever since mod3, true before the nerf I was winning most of the time spamming threatning rush, and it was a huge gap closer but i ended up getting bored of pvp...
After reading the nerfs for the mod4 i was a little bit shocked! I thaught it was the end of my GWF... CW were gods in front of meBut i got used to the 3 charges and i started using my sprint during a fight (i was never using it since i had that OP at will).
Now pvp is more interesting especially in IWD when 1 vs 1.
Kuhaku-NGNL-
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
''One does Not Simply Win Against a Perfect Vorpal CW''
I almost felt sorry for mod 4 GWFs, but you guys have been OP for way too long so it's your turn to experience the frustration everyone else (excluding HR) was facing pre-mod 4.
Are you guys crazy? xD I never said i wouldn't love to have a little damage boost since the huge nerfs that made the 3 shots kills a little bit harder! But! (For IV only) MARK YOUR TARGET! get that marking buff in Sentinel Feat! Buy a PLague fire enchant! And you are like the old GWF! I don't request any changes on my GWF because my damages are okay trough before it was ridiculous to 2-3 shot to kill xD Our prones were Deadly (Prone=No deflect) So use the right build to keep up with your gwf! You can still easily kill a control wizard that taught offensively and was Focusing on Power and Intelligence and forgot about his own resistance! And MAN there are a LOT of squishy Wizzes out there
NO SIR they don't need extra resistance :P it's only that they think that they are the only CCers in this game Most of the Wizzards that have a Greater or Perfect Vorpal can 2-3 shot you before you even know where they are aiming from but don't under-estimate P2W :P
Anyway before you Talk about balance, at least test on 2 EQUAL Geared Classes... Don't act like the 8k GS TR that is Being Oneshot by the 18k GS CW!
No offense xD
Kuhaku-NGNL-
BTW! My Frontline Surge is hitting 5000 without crit... My Takedown 7000 i think... I just simply Mark my target and at least hit her 3 times to debuff it with my plague fire
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
''One does Not Simply Win Against a Perfect Vorpal CW''
Kuhaku-NGNL-
0
doriangreighMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 707Arc User
I played some PvP matches as 17k, 12k and below lvl 60 GWFs and here's what I discovered:
1. You have no chance against HR because deflection reduces stun duration. Since any competent HR has above 40% deflect, most of the time you don't have a chance to land IBS because stuns are too short. You can get some lucky kills if your daily's up, but in other cases - you're screwed.
2. You have no chance against TR because deflection reduces stun duration. Since any competent TR has above 30% deflect, most of the time you don't have a chance to land IBS because stuns are too short. Plus they can now go out of your stun by pressing ITC. Before all the gameplay against TR was about guessing their position in stealth and landing successful FLS followed by TR, Takedown and IBS. Now, if you land any of your stuns, they'll just press ITC and run like nothing happened, and the next time your stuns are ready, ITC will be ready as well.
3. You have no chance against GF, especially if they have Into the Fray slotted. Their block is endless, their movement speed is ridiculous and their damage is godlike. Before you could just break the shield with your at-wills to follow up with prone combo or use your move speed advantage by sprinting behind GF's back and landing Takedown. After the move speed buff GFs have received (and ItF which is now worth taking) you can't run behind them and you also can't break their shield. They can also chain prone kill you in one lucky combo.
4. You have no chance against CW because no one has. Endless dodge, unlimited CC, fixed ArP that made all their previously gimped encounters and dailies hit like a truck, bugged Spell Storm, autoproccing Assailing Force and Shield will make you cry like a little kid. Once, when I played my 12k GWF with 32k HP, I ran into CW with 11k GS and 10% HP. I had no tool to close the distance at that time, but I knew I was as good as dead with my 10k HP left, so why not anyway, and then bam! I'm dead with one Entangling force which dealt something like two 500 damage ticks and procced 5k SS plus 4K Assailant.
The only enemy I could fight is SW, but it's too early to tell something.
The next problems should be addressed to make GWF more PvP viable (and just to make PvP more balanced):
What I got out of the first part that was you are unhappy that you can't land IBS ... welcome to the world of PVP where targets move around, I have had trouble with a number of awesome skills that would be great if only they would connect with the target in PVP. So join the world of having to be an "adaptive" player, might be time to think about what other skills be be useful for a GWF in PVP.
I have not played my GWF since the changes so I have NO idea what might be good or not good, but yeah i'm sure the odds feel terrible being totally melee drivin only to find that you can't do anything without being locked in place ... which is pretty much how I felt as a CW, I spent so much time being prone prone dead that I quit PVP on my CW for awhile, with occasional outtings for daily AD.
For every thread I see about this I will post my same response of, GWF was prone prone kill for so long its time for someone else to be OP and get their PVP campaign boons for a change. I'm NOT saying things shouldn't be addressed, but overall it seems like a new tactic will need to be looked at, just ask any TR out there where they have been changed so much and still many seem to find other ways to get some killing done.
GWF might want to start looking at stuff like punishing charge, battle fury and even mighty leap, may not be 30k single shot hits but will close gaps do damage (maybe to multiple targets) and start looking at feating up sprint if you are a PVP mostly type of person.
If you are a Sword Master GWF things like steel defense, and steel grace might be worth a look, both have uses in PVP but will require some timing and not just spamming tab. The latter will help you mitgate control on you, unless its changed I think it reduces control by 30% + ~20 from tenacity not to mention any reduction you might get from your attributes and you can always look at elven battle enchants if you are that concerned with control. I know as a CW I ran into someone with a ton of control mitigation and he would end control effects pretty much as they were started. Can't remember if that was a halfling or not either.
I think the intent for GWF now is to rely on unstoppable to be immune to control effects and to take advantage of being highly mobile, which means in PVP some of the feats I just mentioned might not sound sexy but would increase at will power damage making those at will strikes a bit more deadly as you sprint around dealing damage.
Again I have not played my GWF so these things might not work well, or maybe might have broken mechanics themselves. But the point is be like the TR, they have survived so many changes but they adapted, GWF just need to figure out what is going to work with how they are now expected to be played.
I end with this last statement, this is also NOT a PVP based game, it is a side quest, a distraction, something to do other than turn in missions for up to an hour. As such there will NEVER be total balance ... EVER!. This game will always be a cycle of one class being superior to all others until they make drastic changes ... sometimes there might be a couple of classes that shine for a time ... but in the near future there will be MOD 5 which will change DC and TR will be getting changes that could either ascend them to the status of being OP or drop them down even worse than they already are but i'm willing to bet it will be the former.
False unless the targe were really under geared (which were really often on domination)
False again: Steel Grace only applies on PvE, it never worked on PvP. Steel Defense, as far as i know, is bugged too due it does not grant total inmunity to damage at all.
To the first false, I should have stated my main character was CW and prone prone kill happened a lot. As other toons maybe not always dead but being prone prone often lead to dead as frankly there are times when others are hitting you from ranged while the GWF is proning you to death. I can freeze someone twice and not necessarily kill them out right but being frozen means others hitting them too is probably going to do the job. Again the point being it sucks to be unable to do anything in a pvp environment.
As to the second, i'd have to look at my post again but i'm certain I said "unless its bugged". I stand by the fact that if those things worked as they should then they would be viable options to move into ... again the point being, adapt, others have had major class changes and i'm sure the GWF can find something that works, I already see people talking about sentinels again.
I agree with a lot of this. The TR example is always a solid one. To expand upon it.
What is the main damage of a good perma TR now - a - days? It isn't Lashing Blade and Impact shot anymore, that was a long time a go in a different world. Now the main bread and butter is Duelists Flurry. AN AT WILL!! I believe the same to be true for how GWFs will have to treat themselves.
You think it was easy for TR's to drag that lashing blade off of their bar? And replace it with something that does no damage like Bait and Switch, or shadow strike - 2 abilities that any "TOP" level TR would scoff at back in the day before things changed. Because they knew they didn't need that kind of ultimate utility because they had such high burst because of their possible builds back then.
Punishing Charge. Mighty Leap. Battle Fury <-- all of these add tremendous utility to your GWF as well as tremendous amounts of extra survivability.
Steel Defense is my new all time favorite class feature as a Sword Master.
You can sprint cancel Take Down, Flourish, IBS among some other encounters.
But most importantly, and I hope you understand just how great this can be as a tool. You can Sprint cancel Spinning Strike. With Steel Defense this gives you 5 seconds of immunity to all damage.
What is tankier than 5 secs of taking no damage at all, no matter what? What is a better utility than soaking up all of these different encounters and maybe dailys for your team while also taking 0 damage?
When you sprint cancel spin strike you will still proc Steel Defense. And you will be left over with around 70% of your AP. Using a spell like Punishing Charge, with a high recovery build, you can get your AP bauble full and ready to use another Daily before the fight is over. I have used this to successfully 1v1 CWs and other GWFs and TRs and HRs and what not in Domination. Everyone is so trigger happy that when you get better at timing when to use SPin Strike Shift Cancel for Steel Defense, you will eat their whole rotation while taking 0 damage, and they are on the receiving side of your Battle Fury.
It is a different play style, one which is both fun and effective. Don't be swayed by the pretty base damage numbers on your skills. All of us TR's understood that a high base damage is useless if you can't land it. And it is just as Useless if that skill means that your ability to survive is greatly diminished.
TL;DR
Just as TR's had too, we need to change our style, encounter load out, and possibly over all build, to really adapt as best as we can.
Sword Master and IV are both really good, but the play style is/can be way different now. I am a Sword Master so that is what I will talk about.
Steel Defense always works. Use Spinning Strike and Sprint cancel it to keep about 70% of your AP for quicker casts.
NOTICE:::If you sprint TOO EARLY during a spinning strike it will not proc Steel Defense. Get used to looking at your portrait for a second when you cast Spinning Strike.As soon as you see the Steel Defense icon pop up, it is time to Sprint Cancel.
Punishing Charge 4%-6% AP per target I hit (on a 6.4 second recharge time)
Take Down - 6% ap generation (on a 6.2 second cool down)
Mighty Leap is 5% AP generation (11.1 seconds cooldown)
Battle Fury - increase AP generation (11.3 cooldown)
Flourish is 6-7% AP generation (11.1 cooldown)
About every 6 seconds I will be stunning someone, and landing a WMS Sure Strike Puishing Charge combo, ending up behind them and them usually using their skill at where I was. It is all about timing.With the movement speed buff from Instigator tree I have a 50% up time on an extra 15% movement speed. So I run really fast when sprinting, Isue Bravery as well fore more movement and dark enchants for movement.
Punishing Charge, Mighty Leap, Battle Fury <-- these are super good , think about TR's, their main damage is from an AT Will, because the encounters they use allow the control of a fight and a higher rate of landing their attacks while remaining safe.
Learn to Sprint Cancel all the skills that are able to be. Flourish is useless until you learn how to Sprint Cancel for Feints.
Once you learn this, you will always land the Flourish that you INTEND to land. Gettin up in someones face and starting an animation triggers their "RUN AWAY" reflex and forces them to move, which equals them not hurting you. Your skill won't go on cool down because you cancel it with sprint. Then you can land it after you force their dodges through feints.
Spend time with those Training Dummies. See just how fast you can increase your AP. If it isn't very quick than this idea wouldn't be the best for you.
No matter what your build though, learning to Sprint Cancel and feint your encounters will help you 100% all the time.
STEEL DEFENSE WORKS - TRUST ME I USE IT EVERYDAY ALL DAY
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
I think the basic issue here is that cryptic took far too long to nerf GWFs and some really awful players got the impression that they were good. Now they think something is wrong because they are losing, when the reality is that they were always bad but their class was so broken they didn't know it.
I think the basic issue here is that cryptic took far too long to nerf GWFs and some really awful players got the impression that they were good. Now they think something is wrong because they are losing, when the reality is that they were always bad but their class was so broken they didn't know it.
I was slaughtering the entire community with my GWF in open beta because it was too powerful.
GWF doesn't need any buffs, they're in a perfect spot now. The idea was that some mechanics and buffs to other classes give them huge advantage just because of those mechanics.
Deflection must not reduce stuns at least.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
(Talking about PvP, not PvE) GWF-class needs some buffs on the SM path due, right now, the only "viable" path is I.V. . S.M. is interesting, but need some buffs to compensate the lacks of prones and the lack of "Gap Closers".
Turn Steel Blitz into Spell Storm and that's a deal
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
The thing I quoted was 100% the reason why CWs on PvP were bad.
Since we are as squishy as wet toilet paper we need good control powers, but before mod 4 our control powers were so retardedly banal that our best stun lasted for like 0.5s. We talked about how OP deflection was and not even a single one said we were right... and here we are.
I'm not saying SM GWFs don't need buffs, I just pointed how ironic the situation is.
Comments
If you have no chance against those classes you should just go PacMan because this is clearly beyond your scope!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I gotta say: I used to be one of the ones who critiquized the new nerfs on gwf, but now everything is just fine! ^^ Since i got enough AD to afford my Plague fire enchant and geared up with some BI, i honestly used to do 15 kills each pvp and no death! Maybe because of broken matchmaking that makes me fight weak players... but i keep getting first at each pvp score... my max kills was 29 and 6 deaths since mod4...
my build? Total focus on damage resistance and crits, so i'm good at both pvp and pve... Believe it or not i run a Destroyer build :P i don't understand people who go with sentinel, CD reduction and aditional damages are better... that doesn't mean that Sentinel is bad tho! The HUGE damage reduction when going on rage is awesome
I always win a 1 vs 1 unless if they had to pop their daily on me or got a perfect vorpal :P
Kuhaku-NGNL-
''One does Not Simply Win Against a Perfect Vorpal CW''
Kuhaku-NGNL-
I watched a GWF take on all comers yesterday in Gaunt and this guy destroyed most of the takers (exception was a Dwarf GF). Literally with his gear and perfect vorpal he tore people's *** up. As this guy said, if your losing to HR or even TR, delete and find a class that works better for you. There is nothing wrong with GWF, it's a learn to play this class issue.
-Kymos
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
For those who want my build i can't say it's special, I'm not running a specific Destroyer build, it's all about thinking offensive while trying to get some resistance... mostly gear based build... Send me a letter or pm me as my main Kuhaku-NGNL- i may give you some tips.
The only question i'm asking for the moment: Why are you guys saying that Destroyer is not viable anymore for pvp?
''One does Not Simply Win Against a Perfect Vorpal CW''
Kuhaku-NGNL-
For those who understand how to PvP, Destroyer is still fine, you just can't stand still CC, CC Kill anymore. You have to think defensively and act offensively.
Isn't the old saying "The best defense is a great Offense" ?
If you play Destro right and are always up in someones business then they are spending their time acting defensively but thinking offensively. Thinking of when can i hit this GWF and How will I kill him.
Destro GWF will ACT aggressive while thinking defensive. Always being in their face will pressure them, you are acting aggressive and they are expecting you to use encounters on them. Mean while you are just throwing at wills in their face to make them act defensive, and desperately try to hit you with CC and encounters etc. This is where thinking defensively comes in. Actively think about when to use a little bit of sprint, and realize you have to do it a little bit sooner than you would think, since there is a slight delay between when you hit shift and when you are granted Immunity.
Destro GWF is all about controlling the flow of the fight as best as you can. We all know what CWs, most other GWFs, GFs, TRs, and HRs are going to do in a fight.
And if you arent sure, then engage with the player and pay attention to what they are doing, in what order, and where they feel comfortable. Once you know their skills/rotations/comfortzone/have an idea of their build, you can deny them the important skills that they must land on you to win (CC's) and keep them out of their comfort zone (usually just be in their face ALWAYS) And always deal with any ranged people in the back line of your enemies team. That is now more so a GWF job than a TR one. Since we can get in their face and back to the node in a heartbeat over and over.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
To ALL:
It is of absolutely no concern to the success of a balancing thread to say things like: "the other day I killed X class with my Y class" or "I saw X class do this vs. Y class" or ANYTHING similar. These remarks are nothing but BASELESS CLAIMS. They do nothing but warrant someone else to respond with the inverse version: "well I saw Y class do this to X class". It achieves nothing and it leads to devs getting an entirely inaccurate perception of the reality of PvP balance.
Class balance should only be discussed in terms of "all other things being equal". When gear, experience, build, and skill are all relatively equal, then we can begin to examine class imbalances. The truth is, this rarely ever happens in a Domination and I dare say has never happened in GG.
Basically, leave your subjective examples out of it. You simply have no idea what you're talking about or how to constructively contribute to a balancing thread.
I guess I will go delete my character now since some shmuck thinks that a GWF should never lose to an HR...
A lot of people get upset when PvPers start to bicker on the forums...not me. Mods are always shutting down or banning EXPERIENCED PVPers and their threads because it tends to get heated, at least these players know what they are talking about. Instead, they should be banning the uneducated n00bs who chime in and have absolutely no clue about what's really going on.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Agree with all of this, and will add it would be most appropriate for PVE.
Not sure about this one. M4 GWF already has way more CC immunity through twitch sprints than any other class has with dodges. Sprint only adds DR instead of a true dodge but the GWF has higher base toughness than most other classes. GWF is also the only class with a encounter power that refills stamina, someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
Sounds great
Kind of a finisher like IBS, also one of a GWFs strongest single target encounters. Mark + TD + RS + IBS damage potential could be through the roof, and maybe a bit too much.
Would be an interesting gap closing addition to swordmasters, maybe they could use it in a feat tree. IV doesn't really need it. Would depend on activation time, Gap closer + Stun + fast activation time would be too strong.
Agree with all of this. I would also add Target lock + sprint on a GWF is beast. It can be difficult to find hot keys that work for you. I use U for target lock, I for sure strike, O for sprint, P for jump, B for threatening rush, G,H,N for encounter slots, and Q and 1 for dailies, thumb on mousepad for targeting. My fingers are always on target lock, sure strike or sprint(since you can't do both at the same time), one encounter, and jump.
I have already had people call me a hacker becuase of target lock!(CWs no less)
For all those kicking butt in M4 cheers, lets polish our skills.
I never tried SM in my life, i don't need the extra damage of flourish after nerf to beat someone, i can't help you telling you what to do with your actual build... BUT IV seems like the best build ever since mod3, true before the nerf I was winning most of the time spamming threatning rush, and it was a huge gap closer but i ended up getting bored of pvp...
After reading the nerfs for the mod4 i was a little bit shocked! I thaught it was the end of my GWF... CW were gods in front of meBut i got used to the 3 charges and i started using my sprint during a fight (i was never using it since i had that OP at will).
Now pvp is more interesting especially in IWD when 1 vs 1.
Kuhaku-NGNL-
''One does Not Simply Win Against a Perfect Vorpal CW''
Kuhaku-NGNL-
It should mark targets, be boosted in secondary damage, and debuff should affect ALL attacks not just at wills.
Flourish is still lack luster, its slow clumsy and way to easy to see coming on opposing players!
Steel Defense is awesome when it works? Needs to be made to always work!
Steel blitz is pretty bleh...
Steel Grace I don't think ever worked?
This goes for both GF / GWF
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
NO SIR they don't need extra resistance :P it's only that they think that they are the only CCers in this game
Anyway before you Talk about balance, at least test on 2 EQUAL Geared Classes... Don't act like the 8k GS TR that is Being Oneshot by the 18k GS CW!
No offense xD
Kuhaku-NGNL-
BTW! My Frontline Surge is hitting 5000 without crit... My Takedown 7000 i think... I just simply Mark my target and at least hit her 3 times to debuff it with my plague fire
''One does Not Simply Win Against a Perfect Vorpal CW''
Kuhaku-NGNL-
What I got out of the first part that was you are unhappy that you can't land IBS ... welcome to the world of PVP where targets move around, I have had trouble with a number of awesome skills that would be great if only they would connect with the target in PVP. So join the world of having to be an "adaptive" player, might be time to think about what other skills be be useful for a GWF in PVP.
I have not played my GWF since the changes so I have NO idea what might be good or not good, but yeah i'm sure the odds feel terrible being totally melee drivin only to find that you can't do anything without being locked in place ... which is pretty much how I felt as a CW, I spent so much time being prone prone dead that I quit PVP on my CW for awhile, with occasional outtings for daily AD.
For every thread I see about this I will post my same response of, GWF was prone prone kill for so long its time for someone else to be OP and get their PVP campaign boons for a change. I'm NOT saying things shouldn't be addressed, but overall it seems like a new tactic will need to be looked at, just ask any TR out there where they have been changed so much and still many seem to find other ways to get some killing done.
GWF might want to start looking at stuff like punishing charge, battle fury and even mighty leap, may not be 30k single shot hits but will close gaps do damage (maybe to multiple targets) and start looking at feating up sprint if you are a PVP mostly type of person.
If you are a Sword Master GWF things like steel defense, and steel grace might be worth a look, both have uses in PVP but will require some timing and not just spamming tab. The latter will help you mitgate control on you, unless its changed I think it reduces control by 30% + ~20 from tenacity not to mention any reduction you might get from your attributes and you can always look at elven battle enchants if you are that concerned with control. I know as a CW I ran into someone with a ton of control mitigation and he would end control effects pretty much as they were started. Can't remember if that was a halfling or not either.
I think the intent for GWF now is to rely on unstoppable to be immune to control effects and to take advantage of being highly mobile, which means in PVP some of the feats I just mentioned might not sound sexy but would increase at will power damage making those at will strikes a bit more deadly as you sprint around dealing damage.
Again I have not played my GWF so these things might not work well, or maybe might have broken mechanics themselves. But the point is be like the TR, they have survived so many changes but they adapted, GWF just need to figure out what is going to work with how they are now expected to be played.
I end with this last statement, this is also NOT a PVP based game, it is a side quest, a distraction, something to do other than turn in missions for up to an hour. As such there will NEVER be total balance ... EVER!. This game will always be a cycle of one class being superior to all others until they make drastic changes ... sometimes there might be a couple of classes that shine for a time ... but in the near future there will be MOD 5 which will change DC and TR will be getting changes that could either ascend them to the status of being OP or drop them down even worse than they already are but i'm willing to bet it will be the former.
To the first false, I should have stated my main character was CW and prone prone kill happened a lot. As other toons maybe not always dead but being prone prone often lead to dead as frankly there are times when others are hitting you from ranged while the GWF is proning you to death. I can freeze someone twice and not necessarily kill them out right but being frozen means others hitting them too is probably going to do the job. Again the point being it sucks to be unable to do anything in a pvp environment.
As to the second, i'd have to look at my post again but i'm certain I said "unless its bugged". I stand by the fact that if those things worked as they should then they would be viable options to move into ... again the point being, adapt, others have had major class changes and i'm sure the GWF can find something that works, I already see people talking about sentinels again.
I agree with a lot of this. The TR example is always a solid one. To expand upon it.
What is the main damage of a good perma TR now - a - days? It isn't Lashing Blade and Impact shot anymore, that was a long time a go in a different world. Now the main bread and butter is Duelists Flurry. AN AT WILL!! I believe the same to be true for how GWFs will have to treat themselves.
You think it was easy for TR's to drag that lashing blade off of their bar? And replace it with something that does no damage like Bait and Switch, or shadow strike - 2 abilities that any "TOP" level TR would scoff at back in the day before things changed. Because they knew they didn't need that kind of ultimate utility because they had such high burst because of their possible builds back then.
Punishing Charge. Mighty Leap. Battle Fury <-- all of these add tremendous utility to your GWF as well as tremendous amounts of extra survivability.
Steel Defense is my new all time favorite class feature as a Sword Master.
You can sprint cancel Take Down, Flourish, IBS among some other encounters.
But most importantly, and I hope you understand just how great this can be as a tool. You can Sprint cancel Spinning Strike. With Steel Defense this gives you 5 seconds of immunity to all damage.
What is tankier than 5 secs of taking no damage at all, no matter what? What is a better utility than soaking up all of these different encounters and maybe dailys for your team while also taking 0 damage?
When you sprint cancel spin strike you will still proc Steel Defense. And you will be left over with around 70% of your AP. Using a spell like Punishing Charge, with a high recovery build, you can get your AP bauble full and ready to use another Daily before the fight is over. I have used this to successfully 1v1 CWs and other GWFs and TRs and HRs and what not in Domination. Everyone is so trigger happy that when you get better at timing when to use SPin Strike Shift Cancel for Steel Defense, you will eat their whole rotation while taking 0 damage, and they are on the receiving side of your Battle Fury.
It is a different play style, one which is both fun and effective. Don't be swayed by the pretty base damage numbers on your skills. All of us TR's understood that a high base damage is useless if you can't land it. And it is just as Useless if that skill means that your ability to survive is greatly diminished.
TL;DR
Just as TR's had too, we need to change our style, encounter load out, and possibly over all build, to really adapt as best as we can.
Sword Master and IV are both really good, but the play style is/can be way different now. I am a Sword Master so that is what I will talk about.
Steel Defense always works. Use Spinning Strike and Sprint cancel it to keep about 70% of your AP for quicker casts.
NOTICE:::If you sprint TOO EARLY during a spinning strike it will not proc Steel Defense. Get used to looking at your portrait for a second when you cast Spinning Strike.As soon as you see the Steel Defense icon pop up, it is time to Sprint Cancel.
Punishing Charge 4%-6% AP per target I hit (on a 6.4 second recharge time)
Take Down - 6% ap generation (on a 6.2 second cool down)
Mighty Leap is 5% AP generation (11.1 seconds cooldown)
Battle Fury - increase AP generation (11.3 cooldown)
Flourish is 6-7% AP generation (11.1 cooldown)
About every 6 seconds I will be stunning someone, and landing a WMS Sure Strike Puishing Charge combo, ending up behind them and them usually using their skill at where I was. It is all about timing.With the movement speed buff from Instigator tree I have a 50% up time on an extra 15% movement speed. So I run really fast when sprinting, Isue Bravery as well fore more movement and dark enchants for movement.
Punishing Charge, Mighty Leap, Battle Fury <-- these are super good , think about TR's, their main damage is from an AT Will, because the encounters they use allow the control of a fight and a higher rate of landing their attacks while remaining safe.
Learn to Sprint Cancel all the skills that are able to be. Flourish is useless until you learn how to Sprint Cancel for Feints.
Once you learn this, you will always land the Flourish that you INTEND to land. Gettin up in someones face and starting an animation triggers their "RUN AWAY" reflex and forces them to move, which equals them not hurting you. Your skill won't go on cool down because you cancel it with sprint. Then you can land it after you force their dodges through feints.
Spend time with those Training Dummies. See just how fast you can increase your AP. If it isn't very quick than this idea wouldn't be the best for you.
No matter what your build though, learning to Sprint Cancel and feint your encounters will help you 100% all the time.
STEEL DEFENSE WORKS - TRUST ME I USE IT EVERYDAY ALL DAY
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
I was slaughtering the entire community with my GWF in open beta because it was too powerful.
GWF doesn't need any buffs, they're in a perfect spot now. The idea was that some mechanics and buffs to other classes give them huge advantage just because of those mechanics.
Deflection must not reduce stuns at least.
Turn Steel Blitz into Spell Storm and that's a deal
The thing I quoted was 100% the reason why CWs on PvP were bad.
Since we are as squishy as wet toilet paper we need good control powers, but before mod 4 our control powers were so retardedly banal that our best stun lasted for like 0.5s. We talked about how OP deflection was and not even a single one said we were right... and here we are.
I'm not saying SM GWFs don't need buffs, I just pointed how ironic the situation is.