Another easier solution would be to simply buff their damage a lot in PVE, at least they would be useful in there again, after all in PVP TRs have at least 1 way to be useful already.
But I much prefer a deeper rework of the class.
That would fix only half the problem, and not the problem at hand. The reason TRs go (semi) perma is because there's no other defense mechanism in place to keep a visible TR alive. ITC isn't the answer, because WKs don't have it and it has a terrible cooldown if you're not perma. If you're going to convince people to use a mostly visible TR in PvP, you'll have to give them some other sort of defense.
ITC + smoke bomb is fairly effective as a visible defense spec. The problem is from a ranged opponent your toast if you haven't closed on them and where is your damage coming from? If your out of stealth even if your not taking much damage, your probably not landing many attacks either. Not only are TR powers lacking in damage but many of them are next to impossible to land on someone who knows your there (dazing strike, wicked reminder, even path of the blade). If Tr encounters not only had CC that was effective and damage appropriate to a low defense melee striker, but lead-ins as fast and large as say front line surge, then and only then does a visible TR start to become viable.
I think we should be able to dual wield shields and throw them like boomerangs
running around and never capping lool
which top tr did u kill 1v1
i know that build.......u just leave
when real tr comes on cap
so before calling out any tr u should proly beat one 1v1 with
full hp ,not coming to only daily him
Another thread moved to the section which is treated equally as rubbish bin. They moved this topic so you can talk here, make 100+posts and no one will care about it at all. There won't be dev or anyone who would care about what you write here. So if you think that your future post in this thread will have any meaning be my guest and keep writing.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
I believe the point was you were warning against a build that already exists.
Exactly it exists and it doesn't need more damage, it's at the upper end of acceptable at the moment with 20k hits as that can be survived. You give a bunch of dps back and that goes to 40k or more well.........
Useless? all your spells get extras when using them from invis + u can go invis and don't attack to hold node or escape. And I would gladly have my unstoppable break each time i use an at will if I'd get the op dmg of the old TR.
trs have no spells to use from stealth not even one
except the ones to stay invisible or itc.
and op dmg from old tr is one big myth
not a single good pvp premade tr ever played burst one shot build because u would be killed easy.they had rege
points in stealth and
they all used itc and ss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWkvrCu8xJ0&list=UUYHDJMItDXLB4woc2NXfikQ
watch 26 :16 u can see 1v1 with gwf was very even fight and
gwf was a joke back then compared to now
26lb in lurker not 50k 10 to 15k lb only without lurker
so saying tr had huge dmg is a joke
it worked good on 20k hp nb thats all
but so did any class
if tr had dmg back in a day it would do 15k lb and 25k in lurker if glass cannon build.which is still not even close to be viable...after that one rotation death is certan
trs have no spells to use from stealth not even one
except the ones to stay invisible or itc.
and op dmg from old tr is one big myth
not a single good pvp premade tr ever played burst one shot build because u would be killed easy.they had rege
points in stealth and
they all used itc and ss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWkvrCu8xJ0&list=UUYHDJMItDXLB4woc2NXfikQ
watch 26 :16 u can see 1v1 with gwf was very even fight and
gwf was a joke back then compared to now
26lb in lurker not 50k 10 to 15k lb only without lurker
so saying tr had huge dmg is a joke
it worked good on 20k hp nb thats all
but so did any class
if tr had dmg back in a day it would do 15k lb and 25k in lurker if glass cannon build.which is still not even close to be viable...after that one rotation death is certan
awsome vid u posted
says it all
so many myths busted
you rock man i realy like u
- Damaging any player in stealth will unstealth you
- You cannot cap nodes while stealthed.
- Using an encounter in stealth unstealths you and takes off x% of your meter instead of the entire thing.
- TRs can re-enter stealth at any % as long as he has meter for it
I'd like better ways of managing my stealth outside of stacking recovery and pressing BnS/SS as I watch the cooldown numbers.
- Damaging any player in stealth will unstealth you
- You cannot cap nodes while stealthed.
- Using an encounter in stealth unstealths you and takes off x% of your meter instead of the entire thing.
- TRs can re-enter stealth at any % as long as he has meter for it
I'd like better ways of managing my stealth outside of stacking recovery and pressing BnS/SS as I watch the cooldown numbers.
You know just thinking about it. I think that most other games didn't allow capping while stealthed. You might be on to a good fix.
- Damaging any player in stealth will unstealth you
- You cannot cap nodes while stealthed.
- Using an encounter in stealth unstealths you and takes off x% of your meter instead of the entire thing.
- TRs can re-enter stealth at any % as long as he has meter for it
I'd like better ways of managing my stealth outside of stacking recovery and pressing BnS/SS as I watch the cooldown numbers.
hmm i can see some of these working. but what are you gonna do on a node completely un stealthed? Maybe if they gave us extra healing when we go in stealth. or unstoppable
If you talking about the "good old days" Tr had triple the ST damage of any other class, Though to fully realize this they had to use certain powers and definitely spec executioner. Then again CW could use some highly obscure bugs to do 500k+ crits with ice knife, tho this was only really useable on bosses. If you saw a completely un-nerfed rogue in action today with all the more powerful gear and the advanced knowledge and technique that has developed over time it would be uncommon to see a DD party without one. They would simply shred any elite mob in an instant and melt bosses like butter.
for the sake of rainbow-ing you could get a tr, but with the current damage of the class its really <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> poor, you'll be completing the run 2x with a gwf or cw, that's how bad it is.
StrawberryCheesecake TR BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] CheeseCake House
I think old TR is too much (or maybe now with tenacity it wouldn't be? I don't really know) but TRs really really need something done, more damage, more ways to defend himself other than stealth and the miserable 2 evades.
TR should be a glass gannon in theory, high damage and low defense, but he needs ways to defend himself, other than stealth and the lousy 2 evades. ItC is good but it's only for MIs.
I think TRs need to have their damage buffed up, more evades (at least 3 without feats) useless skills and feats fixed, like VP, or the combat advantage bug. They need armor penetration added with a stat like other classes too.
There is 1 thing that people don't usually take in mind: Old TR was really strong, but there was no PVP Gear, No tenacity, most people were running tier 1 equipment, REALLY BAD Match making (like really random, throws everyone at you), Shocking execution was hitting that hard because it had a bug... I mean... There were sooooo many differences in damage resistance that it was kinda normal to hit 20k on LS (wich if it wasn't for tenacity, believe me, it would still do it).
In reallity it wasn't that bad, people were just very badly geared...
Rather, it is with how the [TAB] mechanic of stealth has become quintessential to the TR due to the fact that the TR is thoroughly incapable and subpar in every other aspect that makes up a class/character. Because the TR is so much lacking, it had no choice but to rely on an extremely uncommon game system that allows sustained attacks from stealth.
The moment it became possible to extend that stealth indefinately, or at least long enough to match ITC recharge times, the window of exploitation opened up which led to the pile of shi* us TRs are in right now. It subsequently brought on to TRs one nerf upon another, in an endless stream of attempts to "balance" the TR.
Ofcourse, since it was always the stealth mechanic that was at the very heart of the "invincible TR" problem, nerfing individual powers/traits never worked as intended. The TR was still kickin' up dust. Ergo, an endless stream of nerfs until finally so many aspects of the TR were nerfed that we finally arrive at what the TRs are now today.
Let's face it, TRs.
The NW stealth mechanic which allows us to attack while in stealth - the moment a method/build that allowed streams of consecutive stealth to be possible, this mechanic became our rise to power, and at the same time its what started our downfall.
THE NERFS WILL NEVER END AS SO LONG AS THIS STEALTH MECHANIC IS IN PLACE. The majority of people will never accept a method of fighting that allows you to attack, but be never attacked. It doesn't matter if some good players have methods to flush the TR out, or you can get BiS level equipment to stock up so much on HP, defenses, regen that it makes it difficult for a TR to take you down.
On the average scale, trying to fight back against an enemy that you cannot see, and therefore untargettable, is simply too much.
Sooner or later, this stealth mechanic has got to go.
It is only a matter of time until they finally implement a nerf that either makes it impossible/impractical to try and stealth consecutively, or makes benefits from stealth so mediocre that it's not worth it to sacrifice so much to perma/semi-perma. What happens then? What good is "damage" going to do when that happens?
Look on the larger scale. We don't need more damage. We need a total overhaul in our combat design.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Correct me if I'm wrong, wasnt skulkers the best pvp armour and ~23k hp the highest achievable back in the days of the OP 1 shot tr?
These days hp can hit 40k and with the addition of tenacity, the old tr would be considered a perfect fit for the game. We won't be able to 1-shot like before but we will be considered a high damage dealer.
But devs have to be careful about which powers to bring back to 'old tr' levels. We don't want permas becoming high damage permas, and LB/SE reaching rediculous levels.
Speaking of stealth, its fine the way it is. Permas = high survivability, low damage. Combat = high damage, glass cannon. That's how it should be. 2 viable option depending on preference and leaves room for new hybrid builds
I dont know if it was mechanics or just straight DPS, I didnt have one at the time. But TRs were OP at least PVE, that is not a myth.
Heres a vid, pre nerf. We were mostly 10-11k GS at this time. This dude actually had normal vorpal, not even a greater. And yes PK is easy now. Back then it was kind of difficult (kind of, not really, but many discussions about how you properly did it after the fixed the bug where you hopped on the wall). No discussion was needed. Just TR dps boss rest is irrelevant.
These were good peeps back then. Probably long dont play this game anymore. Imagine if they we were all 16K+, greater/perfect vorp, artifacts. That 2nd boss would of been dead in 2-3 seconds tops instead of 6-8 seconds.
Correct me if I'm wrong, wasnt skulkers the best pvp armour and ~23k hp the highest achievable back in the days of the OP 1 shot tr?
These days hp can hit 40k and with the addition of tenacity, the old tr would be considered a perfect fit for the game. We won't be able to 1-shot like before but we will be considered a high damage dealer.
1. Which is not going to help PvE in even the least respect because (as mentioned in other threads) current PvE meta is about "vacuum cleaning + steam rolling", in which the TR doesn't fit no matter how high its damage is.
2. It is not going to help PvP in the sense that it'll instantly resurrect the "TR is OP" uproar, which has only just began to subside.
Think about it.
■ While many classes have now moved on, most TRs still refuse the latest armor sets and still stick to PvP sets with stealth bonuses. If this trend continues, TRs will soon fall under the dilemma where it would have to choose stealth and remain gimped in all other stats, or choose better overall stats and sacrifice stealth. The TRs are falling behind the gear/item curve.
■ The average HP level of PvP-centered players mark around at 30~35k HP, with extremes going over 40k, defense efficiency of some classes such as GWFs or HRs have reached upto ridiculous levels. On the contrary TRs have experienced multiple nerfs detrimental to their performance. As more mods come by, TRs are getting weaker, not stronger.
■ Perma/semi-perma methods have been around for so long, that most experienced PvP players are getting more and more proficient in flushing TRs out, or taking defensive measures to protect themselves against TRs.
All of these factors have contributed to a general wane in relative performance for TRs, which have attributed to the hostile sentiments within the forums and player community simmering down.
If our damage curve climbs back up without any significant changes to our character design, it just brings us back to the past circa early mod2 days. It'll open up the closing wound, and people will be screaming murder again.
That is not the way we should be heading.
But devs have to be careful about which powers to bring back to 'old tr' levels. We don't want permas becoming high damage permas, and LB/SE reaching rediculous levels.
But its going to require ridiculous levels for TRs to be desirable in PvE again, as well as proficient enough to take down some equally ridiculous classes in PvP, like the burp-up roarspam GWFs or the light armoured ranged HR with an HP bar that refuses to drop.
Do we want offensive encounters like LB to make a difference in PvE or PvP? Then my projection is we'll need it to hit around 12~15k average against even heavy armoured classes like GF/GWF without any specific/specialized build, and need to hit 18~25k against CWs, DCs, and HRs. Remember this is "average". For specialized builds that really focus on "one-big-hit"s, you can add assume 5k more damage to these figures.
When we're back hitting these figures, with nothing unchanged with how perma/semi-permas are operating... you can guess what the BBS will be liked after day 1. More TR nerfs.
Speaking of stealth, its fine the way it is. Permas = high survivability, low damage. Combat = high damage, glass cannon. That's how it should be. 2 viable option depending on preference and leaves room for new hybrid builds
My contention is that it is that specific opinion we need to leave from.
My contention is that TRs need to be viewed as a tough but fair opponent, in which every player (seemingly) has a chance of defeating.
Of course currently that is already true, but how stealth is right now, it is such a powerful image of unfairness that it influences people just too much. It drives them against TRs and tempts them to treat us like some kind of a plague. Not to mention the fact that reverting back to the damage levels of the past does nothing to solve how inefficient and abysmal the TR is currently, when it comes to real combat.
In every other game, stealth is as much powerful a tactical tool, but its still merely a tool. You use stealth to choose your conditions of combat, to position yourself, and begin an attack sequences that maximizes your chance of victory. However, once the job is done stealth is then blown off, and ultimately it is still the character itself with its own combat prowess that lead on the fight. It is about what that character can do in combat that decides the outcome, not how powerful a single tool/power is. Whether it be the strong melee combatant the Jedi Shadow is in SWTOR, or the clever CC-heavy Rogue in WoW, or the classic Rogue with nifty backstabs in D&D, this all holds true.
Not so with TRs here. That's the problem. Us TRs are weak. We're weak combatants. No combat buffs. No real CCs. No utilities. No worthy gap-closers. Life as a melee fighter is miserable. All these glaring weaknesses, and then we have ONE, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY POWERFUL [TAB] mechanic that offsets all of that. Not even the best TR players can do anything when they are visible longer than their ITC duration. They simply go down like any ****. But with stealth, those same players become absolutely unkillable.
One must ask, is it really the TR class that is powerful, or the players, or just that one, godda*** [TAB] skill?
I want the TRs to be strong as a whole, as a character, capable and versatile as the designation "Trickster" suggests, whether be it visble or invisible. I want stealth to become a very useful, powerful tool, but not something that totally dictates the survival of the class.
I just want the TR to be something more than an invisible person with a really big gun.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1. Which is not going to help PvE in even the least respect because (as mentioned in other threads) current PvE meta is about "vacuum cleaning + steam rolling", in which the TR doesn't fit no matter how high its damage is.
2. It is not going to help PvP in the sense that it'll instantly resurrect the "TR is OP" uproar, which has only just began to subside.
Think about it.
■ While many classes have now moved on, most TRs still refuse the latest armor sets and still stick to PvP sets with stealth bonuses. If this trend continues, TRs will soon fall under the dilemma where it would have to choose stealth and remain gimped in all other stats, or choose better overall stats and sacrifice stealth. The TRs are falling behind the gear/item curve.
■ The average HP level of PvP-centered players mark around at 30~35k HP, with extremes going over 40k, defense efficiency of some classes such as GWFs or HRs have reached upto ridiculous levels. On the contrary TRs have experienced multiple nerfs detrimental to their performance. As more mods come by, TRs are getting weaker, not stronger.
■ Perma/semi-perma methods have been around for so long, that most experienced PvP players are getting more and more proficient in flushing TRs out, or taking defensive measures to protect themselves against TRs.
All of these factors have contributed to a general wane in relative performance for TRs, which have attributed to the hostile sentiments within the forums and player community simmering down.
If our damage curve climbs back up without any significant changes to our character design, it just brings us back to the past circa early mod2 days. It'll open up the closing wound, and people will be screaming murder again.
That is not the way we should be heading.
But its going to require ridiculous levels for TRs to be desirable in PvE again, as well as proficient enough to take down some equally ridiculous classes in PvP, like the burp-up roarspam GWFs or the light armoured ranged HR with an HP bar that refuses to drop.
Do we want offensive encounters like LB to make a difference in PvE or PvP? Then my projection is we'll need it to hit around 12~15k average against even heavy armoured classes like GF/GWF without any specific/specialized build, and need to hit 18~25k against CWs, DCs, and HRs. Remember this is "average". For specialized builds that really focus on "one-big-hit"s, you can add assume 5k more damage to these figures.
When we're back hitting these figures, with nothing unchanged with how perma/semi-permas are operating... you can guess what the BBS will be liked after day 1. More TR nerfs.
My contention is that it is that specific opinion we need to leave from.
My contention is that TRs need to be viewed as a tough but fair opponent, in which every player (seemingly) has a chance of defeating.
Of course currently that is already true, but how stealth is right now, it is such a powerful image of unfairness that it influences people just too much. It drives them against TRs and tempts them to treat us like some kind of a plague. Not to mention the fact that reverting back to the damage levels of the past does nothing to solve how inefficient and abysmal the TR is currently, when it comes to real combat.
In every other game, stealth is as much powerful a tactical tool, but its still merely a tool. You use stealth to choose your conditions of combat, to position yourself, and begin an attack sequences that maximizes your chance of victory. However, once the job is done stealth is then blown off, and ultimately it is still the character itself with its own combat prowess that lead on the fight. It is about what that character can do in combat that decides the outcome, not how powerful a single tool/power is. Whether it be the strong melee combatant the Jedi Shadow is in SWTOR, or the clever CC-heavy Rogue in WoW, or the classic Rogue with nifty backstabs in D&D, this all holds true.
Not so with TRs here. That's the problem. Us TRs are weak. We're weak combatants. No combat buffs. No real CCs. No utilities. No worthy gap-closers. Life as a melee fighter is miserable. All these glaring weaknesses, and then we have ONE, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY POWERFUL [TAB] mechanic that offsets all of that. Not even the best TR players can do anything when they are visible longer than their ITC duration. They simply go down like any ****. But with stealth, those same players become absolutely unkillable.
One must ask, is it really the TR class that is powerful, or the players, or just that one, godda*** [TAB] skill?
I want the TRs to be strong as a whole, as a character, capable and versatile as the designation "Trickster" suggests, whether be it visble or invisible. I want stealth to become a very useful, powerful tool, but not something that totally dictates the survival of the class.
I just want the TR to be something more than an invisible person with a really big gun.
If you are saying that while the damage would be buffed and stealth stay the same, it will result qq again then i feel for you. How long are you playing this game to not know that there will be always crying about TR. The thing about those cryings is that there has to be reasonable person to move idiotic threads to lower depths when arguments have no sense. Those noobs crying about TR don't want balance. They want TR nerfed so they can go back on GWF and CW and kill TR. Then go on pve and announce that finally TR is capable of running only because in other things in instances he is useless. Get over it and don't go back to this argument.
When it comes to stealth i will keep on reminding those who are less reasonable and suggest to make stealth useless as this whole drain stealth a during at-will. If you want to destroy stealth then:
-GWF has to have break unstoppable on each use of at-will and encounter
-HR needs to have taken away stealth and cooldown on changing between melee and ranged attacks
-CW needs to have reduced damage totally of single target skills since its aoe class
The only reasonable changes to stealth is to move stealth bonus on saboteur path and if you want to rework bait and switch(don't lie to yourself and call it simple destroy the skill) then stealth needs to be increased because 5 seconds is a joke time. And the most important is to increase damage of all single targets skills of TR and unnerf ofc impact shot. But the reason why we can't kill HR and GWF is mostly they have sick ways of defending which makes them totaly overpowered. That is why HR needs to have nerfed those ways to heal himself. As far as i've seen this hr can use cloud and that thorn ward on ground stand still and you can flurry him and you will die anyway, because they have some deflect damage that you deal. Indeed laughable that your damage is so terribly weak that this skill would rather kill you than you would kill standing still player by flurry all time in stealth.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
It is not going to help PvP in the sense that it'll instantly resurrect the "TR is OP" uproar, which has only just began to subside.
Either I worded it badly or you may have missunderstood what I was saying. Back then during the "TR is OP" days, most pvp-ers were using GG sets and had ~25k hp. A 15-25k lashing blade crit would have been considered OP since it could 1 shot. These days, pvp-ers have 35-40k+ hp, tenacity, and as you mentioned the high deflect and defence of other classes. So 15-25k lashing crit would nolonger be a 1-shot, but instead be considered as high burst damage. Same could be said with a slightly toned down version of old impact shot.
Regardless of changes or not, there will always be someone crying that "TR is OP". Only this time, those OP and nerf cries won't be legitimate. 1-shot encounters are definitely not intended, but an encounter power with 20+ seconds cooldown and very easy to miss doing high burst damage is definitely intended.
TRs do need some love, and I agree with you that it is best if we had an entire rework. My opinions put forward here are only in relation to the OP's topic of bringing back the old TR.
However, I somewhat disagree with Stealth being godlike tool which puts TRs out of balance. Like stealth, Lashing Blade, Shocking Ex and Impact shot were also once very good tools. But nerf after nerf, those tools have been removed until Stealth is the only thing we got left. The bit which puts TRs out of balance is the way we try to maximise the effectiveness of this tool.
Lets take a normal stealth activation: 6 seconds invisibility if feated and movement speed increase if feated. Its a nice short tactical advantage, nothing game breaking. The problem occurs when you start using SS and BnS, using the stealth tool for a very long, or indefinite amount of time. I'm not saying that this isn't an intended mechanic, but its definitely the source of where cries come from in pvp.
Another thread moved to the section which is treated equally as rubbish bin. They moved this topic so you can talk here, make 100+posts and no one will care about it at all. There won't be dev or anyone who would care about what you write here. So if you think that your future post in this thread will have any meaning be my guest and keep writing.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Now that we have all had time to see how much harm was done to the PvE portion of the game by the developers responding to the "squeaky wheel" GWF PvPers, I think it is high time to let the TRs have their damage back! I mean, they are weak anyways when it comes to mobs and they are squishy with their lower armor class. The single target damage potential was the TR's best feature! Nerfing their single-target damage potential pulled the TR way out of balance with the rest of the classes in the PvE portion of the game. Also, it made the GWF the stand-alone (and heavily lopsided) ruler in PvP!
Giving the single-target damage BACK to the TR would put them where they should be in PvE and would create more competition against the overpowered GWF in PvP.
I agree with the part you ask to bring back the original TR with high single target dps .
But GWF in mod4 are glascannon too.
Heres a vid, pre nerf. We were mostly 10-11k GS at this time. This dude actually had normal vorpal, not even a greater. And yes PK is easy now. Back then it was kind of difficult (kind of, not really, but many discussions about how you properly did it after the fixed the bug where you hopped on the wall). No discussion was needed. Just TR dps boss rest is irrelevant.
These were good peeps back then. Probably long dont play this game anymore. Imagine if they we were all 16K+, greater/perfect vorp, artifacts. That 2nd boss would of been dead in 2-3 seconds tops instead of 6-8 seconds.
There are a LOT of players who do not own even standard vorpal enchantments. I have a few lessers, but that is it. They are too expensive for the majority of players. Keep in mind, those that post here are among the more avid players, in general. I know many NW players in real life that have level 60 characters without ANY armor/weapon enchants because they can't afford them.
These "max" hit scenarios involve expensive gear that many players will not have for a long time (and some will never have). My old school TR never hit anywhere near 20k.
It just seems like we are looking at best-case situations, not the norm.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
im so sick of ppl crying trs are so weak!
if u cry trs are weak news flash" you probably dont know how to play the tr mechanics!
how about going from im to wk the are much better dps and no you dont need itc to survive
yes i do use profound set, yes i do use my stealth to survive but understanding your mechanics and using them to the max, will make you enloy and help your party without been permastealth in pve and pvp!
just like ppl claimed "wicked reminder" was useless until "demonmongerchild" posted a video how to use it and the unlimited aoe it can do (before recent nerf). sudenly ppl started saying: "wow never know i can do so much damage with this so called useless encounter".
yes trs powers have been nerfed to the ground yes we do need some buffs and guess what: trs are getting bufffes right after m4 i on so said devs!
so expect good thing for trs soon!
im so sick of ppl crying trs are so weak!
if u cry trs are weak news flash" you probably dont know how to play the tr mechanics!
how about going from im to wk the are much better dps and no you dont need itc to survive
yes i do use profound set, yes i do use my stealth to survive but understanding your mechanics and using them to the max, will make you enloy and help your party without been permastealth in pve and pvp!
just like ppl claimed "wicked reminder" was useless until "demonmongerchild" posted a video how to use it and the unlimited aoe it can do (before recent nerf). sudenly ppl started saying: "wow never know i can do so much damage with this so called useless encounter".
yes trs powers have been nerfed to the ground yes we do need some buffs and guess what: trs are getting bufffes right after m4 i on so said devs!
so expect good thing for trs soon!
First, I never said the TR was weak - just needed at least some of its original single-target dps back. I never use perma-stealth myself - cheesy and boring.
But, thanks for the info about Mod 4. I hope what you say is true about the TR getting some buffs back!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
im so sick of ppl crying trs are so weak!
if u cry trs are weak news flash" you probably dont know how to play the tr mechanics!
how about going from im to wk the are much better dps and no you dont need itc to survive
yes i do use profound set, yes i do use my stealth to survive but understanding your mechanics and using them to the max, will make you enloy and help your party without been permastealth in pve and pvp!
just like ppl claimed "wicked reminder" was useless until "demonmongerchild" posted a video how to use it and the unlimited aoe it can do (before recent nerf). sudenly ppl started saying: "wow never know i can do so much damage with this so called useless encounter".
yes trs powers have been nerfed to the ground yes we do need some buffs and guess what: trs are getting bufffes right after m4 i on so said devs!
so expect good thing for trs soon!
Really? What makes you think that? That right before mod they tried to destroy duelist flurry without ANY PATCH NOTE? Or maybe that right before mod they nerfed mentioned here wicked reminder? I don't understand your post to be honest. How come GWF have from mod 2 on each mod mass of changes while TR have barely anything-nerfs. And who can say it is fair to leave TR for so long weakened? On the highest lvl HR and GWF can kill them cause TR has no arguments-only hide and duelist flurry, if they use some offensive encounters they are dead shortly. 1 year and few months now TR had nothing so far but nerfs.
If anyone say that gwf was more pressing to change-then i say who made them op in mod 2?
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
TRs do ned much wor to be viable in PVE and PVP again (I mean with another option that isn't perma stealth)
they need more damage, a stealth rework, a feat rework, and more tools to defend himself besides stealth and the 2 lousy rolls.
im so sick of ppl crying trs are so weak!
if u cry trs are weak news flash" you probably dont know how to play the tr mechanics!
how about going from im to wk the are much better dps and no you dont need itc to survive
yes i do use profound set, yes i do use my stealth to survive but understanding your mechanics and using them to the max, will make you enloy and help your party without been permastealth in pve and pvp!
just like ppl claimed "wicked reminder" was useless until "demonmongerchild" posted a video how to use it and the unlimited aoe it can do (before recent nerf). sudenly ppl started saying: "wow never know i can do so much damage with this so called useless encounter".
yes trs powers have been nerfed to the ground yes we do need some buffs and guess what: trs are getting bufffes right after m4 i on so said devs!
so expect good thing for trs soon!
after one and a half year in to the game no one knows the class but you
how full of yourself u need to be to comment like this
plz stop with non sence same skill 10gs cw beats 19gs tr in every apect of pve
and tr is not weak ?
loooool
Comments
But I much prefer a deeper rework of the class.
ITC + smoke bomb is fairly effective as a visible defense spec. The problem is from a ranged opponent your toast if you haven't closed on them and where is your damage coming from? If your out of stealth even if your not taking much damage, your probably not landing many attacks either. Not only are TR powers lacking in damage but many of them are next to impossible to land on someone who knows your there (dazing strike, wicked reminder, even path of the blade). If Tr encounters not only had CC that was effective and damage appropriate to a low defense melee striker, but lead-ins as fast and large as say front line surge, then and only then does a visible TR start to become viable.
which top tr did u kill 1v1
i know that build.......u just leave
when real tr comes on cap
so before calling out any tr u should proly beat one 1v1 with
full hp ,not coming to only daily him
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
I believe the point was you were warning against a build that already exists.
Exactly it exists and it doesn't need more damage, it's at the upper end of acceptable at the moment with 20k hits as that can be survived. You give a bunch of dps back and that goes to 40k or more well.........
trs have no spells to use from stealth not even one
except the ones to stay invisible or itc.
and op dmg from old tr is one big myth
not a single good pvp premade tr ever played burst one shot build because u would be killed easy.they had rege
points in stealth and
they all used itc and ss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWkvrCu8xJ0&list=UUYHDJMItDXLB4woc2NXfikQ
watch 26 :16 u can see 1v1 with gwf was very even fight and
gwf was a joke back then compared to now
26lb in lurker not 50k 10 to 15k lb only without lurker
so saying tr had huge dmg is a joke
it worked good on 20k hp nb thats all
but so did any class
if tr had dmg back in a day it would do 15k lb and 25k in lurker if glass cannon build.which is still not even close to be viable...after that one rotation death is certan
Now you're just making me drool....
awsome vid u posted
says it all
so many myths busted
you rock man i realy like u
nah we rock man we bring order to this forums and law to like yoda in star wars
but cant say i like u to
i barely tolarate u
- You cannot cap nodes while stealthed.
- Using an encounter in stealth unstealths you and takes off x% of your meter instead of the entire thing.
- TRs can re-enter stealth at any % as long as he has meter for it
I'd like better ways of managing my stealth outside of stacking recovery and pressing BnS/SS as I watch the cooldown numbers.
You know just thinking about it. I think that most other games didn't allow capping while stealthed. You might be on to a good fix.
hmm i can see some of these working. but what are you gonna do on a node completely un stealthed? Maybe if they gave us extra healing when we go in stealth. or unstoppable
for the sake of rainbow-ing you could get a tr, but with the current damage of the class its really <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> poor, you'll be completing the run 2x with a gwf or cw, that's how bad it is.
BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
CheeseCake House
There is 1 thing that people don't usually take in mind: Old TR was really strong, but there was no PVP Gear, No tenacity, most people were running tier 1 equipment, REALLY BAD Match making (like really random, throws everyone at you), Shocking execution was hitting that hard because it had a bug... I mean... There were sooooo many differences in damage resistance that it was kinda normal to hit 20k on LS (wich if it wasn't for tenacity, believe me, it would still do it).
In reallity it wasn't that bad, people were just very badly geared...
Rather, it is with how the [TAB] mechanic of stealth has become quintessential to the TR due to the fact that the TR is thoroughly incapable and subpar in every other aspect that makes up a class/character. Because the TR is so much lacking, it had no choice but to rely on an extremely uncommon game system that allows sustained attacks from stealth.
The moment it became possible to extend that stealth indefinately, or at least long enough to match ITC recharge times, the window of exploitation opened up which led to the pile of shi* us TRs are in right now. It subsequently brought on to TRs one nerf upon another, in an endless stream of attempts to "balance" the TR.
Ofcourse, since it was always the stealth mechanic that was at the very heart of the "invincible TR" problem, nerfing individual powers/traits never worked as intended. The TR was still kickin' up dust. Ergo, an endless stream of nerfs until finally so many aspects of the TR were nerfed that we finally arrive at what the TRs are now today.
Let's face it, TRs.
The NW stealth mechanic which allows us to attack while in stealth - the moment a method/build that allowed streams of consecutive stealth to be possible, this mechanic became our rise to power, and at the same time its what started our downfall.
THE NERFS WILL NEVER END AS SO LONG AS THIS STEALTH MECHANIC IS IN PLACE. The majority of people will never accept a method of fighting that allows you to attack, but be never attacked. It doesn't matter if some good players have methods to flush the TR out, or you can get BiS level equipment to stock up so much on HP, defenses, regen that it makes it difficult for a TR to take you down.
On the average scale, trying to fight back against an enemy that you cannot see, and therefore untargettable, is simply too much.
Sooner or later, this stealth mechanic has got to go.
It is only a matter of time until they finally implement a nerf that either makes it impossible/impractical to try and stealth consecutively, or makes benefits from stealth so mediocre that it's not worth it to sacrifice so much to perma/semi-perma. What happens then? What good is "damage" going to do when that happens?
Look on the larger scale. We don't need more damage. We need a total overhaul in our combat design.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
These days hp can hit 40k and with the addition of tenacity, the old tr would be considered a perfect fit for the game. We won't be able to 1-shot like before but we will be considered a high damage dealer.
But devs have to be careful about which powers to bring back to 'old tr' levels. We don't want permas becoming high damage permas, and LB/SE reaching rediculous levels.
Speaking of stealth, its fine the way it is. Permas = high survivability, low damage. Combat = high damage, glass cannon. That's how it should be. 2 viable option depending on preference and leaves room for new hybrid builds
Butters TR PVP
Heres a vid, pre nerf. We were mostly 10-11k GS at this time. This dude actually had normal vorpal, not even a greater. And yes PK is easy now. Back then it was kind of difficult (kind of, not really, but many discussions about how you properly did it after the fixed the bug where you hopped on the wall). No discussion was needed. Just TR dps boss rest is irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJoaIfzS1Fc - PK 2nd boss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZhLjiU2mp0 - PK Last boss
These were good peeps back then. Probably long dont play this game anymore. Imagine if they we were all 16K+, greater/perfect vorp, artifacts. That 2nd boss would of been dead in 2-3 seconds tops instead of 6-8 seconds.
.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
1. Which is not going to help PvE in even the least respect because (as mentioned in other threads) current PvE meta is about "vacuum cleaning + steam rolling", in which the TR doesn't fit no matter how high its damage is.
2. It is not going to help PvP in the sense that it'll instantly resurrect the "TR is OP" uproar, which has only just began to subside.
Think about it.
■ While many classes have now moved on, most TRs still refuse the latest armor sets and still stick to PvP sets with stealth bonuses. If this trend continues, TRs will soon fall under the dilemma where it would have to choose stealth and remain gimped in all other stats, or choose better overall stats and sacrifice stealth. The TRs are falling behind the gear/item curve.
■ The average HP level of PvP-centered players mark around at 30~35k HP, with extremes going over 40k, defense efficiency of some classes such as GWFs or HRs have reached upto ridiculous levels. On the contrary TRs have experienced multiple nerfs detrimental to their performance. As more mods come by, TRs are getting weaker, not stronger.
■ Perma/semi-perma methods have been around for so long, that most experienced PvP players are getting more and more proficient in flushing TRs out, or taking defensive measures to protect themselves against TRs.
All of these factors have contributed to a general wane in relative performance for TRs, which have attributed to the hostile sentiments within the forums and player community simmering down.
If our damage curve climbs back up without any significant changes to our character design, it just brings us back to the past circa early mod2 days. It'll open up the closing wound, and people will be screaming murder again.
That is not the way we should be heading.
But its going to require ridiculous levels for TRs to be desirable in PvE again, as well as proficient enough to take down some equally ridiculous classes in PvP, like the burp-up roarspam GWFs or the light armoured ranged HR with an HP bar that refuses to drop.
Do we want offensive encounters like LB to make a difference in PvE or PvP? Then my projection is we'll need it to hit around 12~15k average against even heavy armoured classes like GF/GWF without any specific/specialized build, and need to hit 18~25k against CWs, DCs, and HRs. Remember this is "average". For specialized builds that really focus on "one-big-hit"s, you can add assume 5k more damage to these figures.
When we're back hitting these figures, with nothing unchanged with how perma/semi-permas are operating... you can guess what the BBS will be liked after day 1. More TR nerfs.
My contention is that it is that specific opinion we need to leave from.
My contention is that TRs need to be viewed as a tough but fair opponent, in which every player (seemingly) has a chance of defeating.
Of course currently that is already true, but how stealth is right now, it is such a powerful image of unfairness that it influences people just too much. It drives them against TRs and tempts them to treat us like some kind of a plague. Not to mention the fact that reverting back to the damage levels of the past does nothing to solve how inefficient and abysmal the TR is currently, when it comes to real combat.
In every other game, stealth is as much powerful a tactical tool, but its still merely a tool. You use stealth to choose your conditions of combat, to position yourself, and begin an attack sequences that maximizes your chance of victory. However, once the job is done stealth is then blown off, and ultimately it is still the character itself with its own combat prowess that lead on the fight. It is about what that character can do in combat that decides the outcome, not how powerful a single tool/power is. Whether it be the strong melee combatant the Jedi Shadow is in SWTOR, or the clever CC-heavy Rogue in WoW, or the classic Rogue with nifty backstabs in D&D, this all holds true.
Not so with TRs here. That's the problem. Us TRs are weak. We're weak combatants. No combat buffs. No real CCs. No utilities. No worthy gap-closers. Life as a melee fighter is miserable. All these glaring weaknesses, and then we have ONE, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY POWERFUL [TAB] mechanic that offsets all of that. Not even the best TR players can do anything when they are visible longer than their ITC duration. They simply go down like any ****. But with stealth, those same players become absolutely unkillable.
One must ask, is it really the TR class that is powerful, or the players, or just that one, godda*** [TAB] skill?
I want the TRs to be strong as a whole, as a character, capable and versatile as the designation "Trickster" suggests, whether be it visble or invisible. I want stealth to become a very useful, powerful tool, but not something that totally dictates the survival of the class.
I just want the TR to be something more than an invisible person with a really big gun.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I agree with everything you just said!
If you are saying that while the damage would be buffed and stealth stay the same, it will result qq again then i feel for you. How long are you playing this game to not know that there will be always crying about TR. The thing about those cryings is that there has to be reasonable person to move idiotic threads to lower depths when arguments have no sense. Those noobs crying about TR don't want balance. They want TR nerfed so they can go back on GWF and CW and kill TR. Then go on pve and announce that finally TR is capable of running only because in other things in instances he is useless. Get over it and don't go back to this argument.
When it comes to stealth i will keep on reminding those who are less reasonable and suggest to make stealth useless as this whole drain stealth a during at-will. If you want to destroy stealth then:
-GWF has to have break unstoppable on each use of at-will and encounter
-HR needs to have taken away stealth and cooldown on changing between melee and ranged attacks
-CW needs to have reduced damage totally of single target skills since its aoe class
The only reasonable changes to stealth is to move stealth bonus on saboteur path and if you want to rework bait and switch(don't lie to yourself and call it simple destroy the skill) then stealth needs to be increased because 5 seconds is a joke time. And the most important is to increase damage of all single targets skills of TR and unnerf ofc impact shot. But the reason why we can't kill HR and GWF is mostly they have sick ways of defending which makes them totaly overpowered. That is why HR needs to have nerfed those ways to heal himself. As far as i've seen this hr can use cloud and that thorn ward on ground stand still and you can flurry him and you will die anyway, because they have some deflect damage that you deal. Indeed laughable that your damage is so terribly weak that this skill would rather kill you than you would kill standing still player by flurry all time in stealth.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Either I worded it badly or you may have missunderstood what I was saying. Back then during the "TR is OP" days, most pvp-ers were using GG sets and had ~25k hp. A 15-25k lashing blade crit would have been considered OP since it could 1 shot. These days, pvp-ers have 35-40k+ hp, tenacity, and as you mentioned the high deflect and defence of other classes. So 15-25k lashing crit would nolonger be a 1-shot, but instead be considered as high burst damage. Same could be said with a slightly toned down version of old impact shot.
Regardless of changes or not, there will always be someone crying that "TR is OP". Only this time, those OP and nerf cries won't be legitimate. 1-shot encounters are definitely not intended, but an encounter power with 20+ seconds cooldown and very easy to miss doing high burst damage is definitely intended.
TRs do need some love, and I agree with you that it is best if we had an entire rework. My opinions put forward here are only in relation to the OP's topic of bringing back the old TR.
However, I somewhat disagree with Stealth being godlike tool which puts TRs out of balance. Like stealth, Lashing Blade, Shocking Ex and Impact shot were also once very good tools. But nerf after nerf, those tools have been removed until Stealth is the only thing we got left. The bit which puts TRs out of balance is the way we try to maximise the effectiveness of this tool.
Lets take a normal stealth activation: 6 seconds invisibility if feated and movement speed increase if feated. Its a nice short tactical advantage, nothing game breaking. The problem occurs when you start using SS and BnS, using the stealth tool for a very long, or indefinite amount of time. I'm not saying that this isn't an intended mechanic, but its definitely the source of where cries come from in pvp.
Butters TR PVP
Yeah - not happy this thread was moved here. . .
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I agree with the part you ask to bring back the original TR with high single target dps .
But GWF in mod4 are glascannon too.
There are a LOT of players who do not own even standard vorpal enchantments. I have a few lessers, but that is it. They are too expensive for the majority of players. Keep in mind, those that post here are among the more avid players, in general. I know many NW players in real life that have level 60 characters without ANY armor/weapon enchants because they can't afford them.
These "max" hit scenarios involve expensive gear that many players will not have for a long time (and some will never have). My old school TR never hit anywhere near 20k.
It just seems like we are looking at best-case situations, not the norm.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
if u cry trs are weak news flash" you probably dont know how to play the tr mechanics!
how about going from im to wk the are much better dps and no you dont need itc to survive
yes i do use profound set, yes i do use my stealth to survive but understanding your mechanics and using them to the max, will make you enloy and help your party without been permastealth in pve and pvp!
just like ppl claimed "wicked reminder" was useless until "demonmongerchild" posted a video how to use it and the unlimited aoe it can do (before recent nerf). sudenly ppl started saying: "wow never know i can do so much damage with this so called useless encounter".
yes trs powers have been nerfed to the ground yes we do need some buffs and guess what: trs are getting bufffes right after m4 i on so said devs!
so expect good thing for trs soon!
First, I never said the TR was weak - just needed at least some of its original single-target dps back. I never use perma-stealth myself - cheesy and boring.
But, thanks for the info about Mod 4. I hope what you say is true about the TR getting some buffs back!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Really? What makes you think that? That right before mod they tried to destroy duelist flurry without ANY PATCH NOTE? Or maybe that right before mod they nerfed mentioned here wicked reminder? I don't understand your post to be honest. How come GWF have from mod 2 on each mod mass of changes while TR have barely anything-nerfs. And who can say it is fair to leave TR for so long weakened? On the highest lvl HR and GWF can kill them cause TR has no arguments-only hide and duelist flurry, if they use some offensive encounters they are dead shortly. 1 year and few months now TR had nothing so far but nerfs.
If anyone say that gwf was more pressing to change-then i say who made them op in mod 2?
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
they need more damage, a stealth rework, a feat rework, and more tools to defend himself besides stealth and the 2 lousy rolls.
after one and a half year in to the game no one knows the class but you
how full of yourself u need to be to comment like this
plz stop with non sence same skill 10gs cw beats 19gs tr in every apect of pve
and tr is not weak ?
loooool