The last 2 posts are soo true. Just I'm not gonna go in to end game PVP with my GWF ever I'm gonna do exactly what I did with my HR, make another class to counter both OP classes. I was never the dude who liked to play the OP class but I got sick of Permas and Roarers ruining my game so I created my HR to counter both classes and I can beat any same lvl gear GWF and TR. Keep in mind I'm not using any OP set with just Constricting I can stop the GWF from proning me if he ever catches me and I can avoid DF. But I guess that's gone so on to the next counter class
There won't be any roarers in Mod4. Roar is dead. Even if it wasn't, I'd still keep playing GWF without using Roar.
But anyway, the reason why is that GWF has the trifecta of DPS, Survivability & CC. Honestly every class should have a pie chart of DPS, Survivability, CC & Utility and each chart should add up to 100 points of effectiveness no matter how the chart splits. PWE doesn't understand this, though, and thus we have two top tier PvP classes (GWF & TR), one mid-tier class (CW), and the rest are bottom-tier classes as it currently stands going into Mod4 (though I should give preview GF another look, I'm hearing good things). I'm absolutely fine trading away one or more aspects of the pie chart as long as the other aspects are buffed, but simply dropping down to 50 points of effectiveness because of nerfs while other classes remain at 100 points is irritatingly stupid.
Without the lazy CC chain that ROAR-bug was and Takedown no longer proning, GWFs will actually require some more skill to play at a top level. But because it has CC immunity on demand, it's just going to continue to be fun to play and have a trump-everyone card since CC has no DR in this game. If GWF wasn't fun, I'd just quit at this point because of the lack of proper balancing. NW doesn't even have that many mechanics to it, so it's confusing how the changes aren't aimed at creating "effectiveness (read: fun) balance" in PvP & PvE.
Having played GWF more (still not using Roar on Live, I refuse), it's pretty fun facetanking people and sprinting all over the place. It takes work to actually chase down a competent CW or HR (maybe because I'm not all geared out, w/e), and that's cool.
HR is plenty of fun on Live, and I'll miss it come Mod4. But PvP is what's fun to play, so there's no point in having an HR anymore if they keep the current imbalance plans. RIP HR.
This is most definitely true in PvE. Just because I hit a fell troll with CA doesn't guarantee that he won't get to knock me flying, but it becomes a lot less likely. I still have to dodge the attack if it looks like the stun won't proc in time.
I really would like to hear from a Dev: what is the rationale behind the CA change? I don't PvP at all, and so I would like to hear the justification for hurting us this badly in PvE, which is the vast majority of NW content.
This change to CA is what I would describe at work as "killing an ant with a thermonuclear weapon". A simple solution would be to space out the stuns by an extra 0.5 sec. But then, I'm an engineer and when we need to make a change in a complex system, we do our best to minimize its impact footprint as much as possible--and then test it to death (it being a manned aircraft, after all).
Maybe if they doubled the duration and damage of Disruptive Shot, I'd be fine with a complete CA rework.
I mean, every other class on Live gets some form of great CC as an Encounter power (typically 2 or more). Why don't HRs? Grasping Roots is weak, and it's even weaker on Preview. It doesn't sport the damage or duration to be useful yet.
Ideally, damaging Roots would become baseline for Rangers, the baseline duration would be doubled, and then the Trapper tree would further improve from there (minimum double current Roots damage with 100% of it dealt to CC immune targets, and increasing the duration to current levels +2/1 seconds, imo). Trapper could also give Roots some kind of debuff, so it helps even more in PvP and makes AOEing adds in PvE easier.
Then Constricting Arrow could be reworked into something that isn't a clone of Binding Arrow and plays with the roots mechanic (not enough abilities that do so anyway, currently) without a problem.
And then maybe they could buff some Heroic feats to replenish some of the lost survivability of AotLW and Wilds Medicine.
After all that, we'd be looking at a class that could better toe-to-toe with TR, GWF & CW, or better complement parties in PvE, but as it stands it's pointless to bring an HR when you can instead bring someone else.
I'm going to reiterate that every class should be as effective as the GWF in PvE and PvP. They can and should be differently specialized and kitted out, but when half the classes are just not as effective, it's grating to play anything but a top tier class.
Which means those areas where classes are lacking need to be buffed. (Rather than nerf GWF)
TR should be amazing ST hitters in PvE, and should have another option than Perma to be useful in PvP.
CWs should get a small survivability or dps boost to be better in PvP.
DCs should be able to do more than debuff in PvE and heal in PvP.
HRs should have some kind of arena where they rock (without needing a bugged pvp set), e.g. amazing ST or AOE DPS, or solid DPS + decent CC support.
GFs should bring enough DPS and Utility to a party to be useful in PvE, and have at least as much Survivability as a Sentinel GWF in PvP while dishing out more CC or Utility in place of a GWF's DPS.
And SWs look great for damage, so they'll be cool in PvE, but they look like wet noodles for PvP.
This thread is ridiculous. I play an HR as my main and is by far my favorite class in the game.
I don't feel bad for these changes coming at all because:
1. PvP will be fine because HRs may be getting nerfed, but so are other classes. Essentially these changes are necessary because with the other classes getting much weaker, and with the HR already being one of the top tier PvP classes, we would be risking HRs becoming too powerful. In the long run with GWF and CW getting weaker with us, you will see little to no change.
2. The new tree focuses on Hybrid HRs and scraps the useless and less taken feat tree, nature. I for one as a Hybrid HR will love to be able to focus on one tree instead of having to go half into Archery and half into Combat. Now Archery HRs may become weaker in combat, but will become even stronger in Archery, allowing them to be almost pure Archery like some wish. The same goes for combat.
3. These changes are really nothing compared to the nerfs the GWF and CW are getting. CW will only have about 25% of their original damage. GWFs will lose all of their prone encounters in PvP and lose 3x their DR in unstoppable.
Feel bad about our nerfs now? I for sure am glad the Devs didn't strike our class with the nerf fury of a thousand gods like that.
The HR will be alright. I've tested my main HR, Sky-Hawk, for hours on the preview shard using the Trapper tree while testing out the new campaign. We are still far from weak. I'm very confident that we may even be viable in PvE now with all that's happening to the GWF and CW. We also have less to worry less about GWFs and CWs in PvP.
I love the HR and will still continue playing mine after mod 4 goes live. In fact I'm confident that I will enjoy my HR with the new changes.
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3. These changes are really nothing compared to the nerfs the GWF and CW are getting. CW will only have about 25% of their original damage. GWFs will lose all of their prone encounters in PvP and lose 3x their DR in unstoppable.
1. You dont read much do you as gwf dr in unstop been somewhat changed back + they get 30% dr and immunity when sprinting + sprinting use 40 % less stam whish means most will go for another 15% less stam drain meaning 55% less stam drain = 30%+dr + immunity to ccs between unstop good luck catching one. CW having 25% of their dam is a blunt lie and would concern pve when fighting mass mobs in pvp reality is that they will be able to lock cc alot more and the dam nerf isent close to 75% pure falsarium.
2.Many of the changes hasent hit preveiw yet so you cant test them against other classes.
Tell me what other classes do you play can it be cw tr and gwf maby just a guess......
This thread is ridiculous. I play an HR as my main and is by far my favorite class in the game.
I don't feel bad for these changes coming at all because:
1. PvP will be fine because HRs may be getting nerfed, but so are other classes. Essentially these changes are necessary because with the other classes getting much weaker, and with the HR already being one of the top tier PvP classes, we would be risking HRs becoming too powerful. In the long run with GWF and CW getting weaker with us, you will see little to no change.
2. The new tree focuses on Hybrid HRs and scraps the useless and less taken feat tree, nature. I for one as a Hybrid HR will love to be able to focus on one tree instead of having to go half into Archery and half into Combat. Now Archery HRs may become weaker in combat, but will become even stronger in Archery, allowing them to be almost pure Archery like some wish. The same goes for combat.
3. These changes are really nothing compared to the nerfs the GWF and CW are getting. CW will only have about 25% of their original damage. GWFs will lose all of their prone encounters in PvP and lose 3x their DR in unstoppable.
Feel bad about our nerfs now? I for sure am glad the Devs didn't strike our class with the nerf fury of a thousand gods like that.
The HR will be alright. I've tested my main HR, Sky-Hawk, for hours on the preview shard using the Trapper tree while testing out the new campaign. We are still far from weak. I'm very confident that we may even be viable in PvE now with all that's happening to the GWF and CW. We also have less to worry less about GWFs and CWs in PvP.
I love the HR and will still continue playing mine after mod 4 goes live. In fact I'm confident that I will enjoy my HR with the new changes.
A lot agree with the thread and just because you don't doesn't make the thread ridiculous. GWFs lost 3x their DR in unstoppable? 15-30% (Down from 25-50%) Totally 3x . I don't think anymore needs to be said however I'll continue. The nerf for GWFs is barely a nerf. They lost their prones? Boohoo it may actually take skill to land IBS which is ironic because most the GWFs crying about players needing skill to avoid Roar and Takedown are now crying that it may actually take some skill to land IBS. I've moved to GWFs briefly in this thread but I really think we should stay on the topic of HRs. Just because the big red monsters lost their prones and 10% DR and the squishy killers got animation time ups and a damage nerf doesn't mean HRs got none. Tankiness NERFED Healing Set NERFED Archery Damage ABOUT TO BE NERFED. But our only form of CC really? I'm getting the feeling that the devs added in the nerf because they didn't think the nubs who don't realize that on preview the healing set hasn't been nerfed yet would think that removing our tankiness, damage, and healing set was enough. Remember that gap between the split shot and fox shift nerf and right before pathfinder? All HRs dropped off earth and weren't a problem? That's how we're going to be just that the whole class is being deleted and replaced with CombatorMeleeWithASideDfUselessTrapperer class. I really was waiting for that class.... and to think everyone else was hoping for a paladin, warlock, or druid PFFFFFFFT
1. You dont read much do you as gwf dr in unstop been somewhat changed back + they get 30% dr and immunity when sprinting + sprinting use 40 % less stam whish means most will go for another 15% less stam drain meaning 55% less stam drain = 30%+dr + immunity to ccs between unstop good luck catching one. CW having 25% of their dam is a blunt lie and would concern pve when fighting mass mobs in pvp reality is that they will be able to lock cc alot more and the dam nerf isent close to 75% pure falsarium.
2.Many of the changes hasent hit preveiw yet so you cant test them against other classes.
Tell me what other classes do you play can it be cw tr and gwf maby just a guess......
Well they are nerfing 2 of CW's commonly relied upon skills: Shard and Chill Strike.
Unless they rereleased new patch notes that buffed it back up.
Well they are nerfing 2 of CW's commonly relied upon skills: Shard and Chill Strike.
Unless they rereleased new patch notes that buffed it back up.
They nerf some dam and add more cc how that balance out in pvp is to be tested but saying that cw class lost 75% dam overall is nothing but trolling....
They nerf some dam and add more cc how that balance out in pvp is to be tested but saying that cw class lost 75% dam overall is nothing but trolling....
Yup spot on. I honestly hope a dev reviews this and considers what the Hunter Rangers have to say like they do with the GWF
0
dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
edited July 2014
I've tested my main HR, Sky-Hawk, for hours on the preview shard using the Trapper tree while testing out the new campaign.
I gave the Trapper tree a try yesterday versus Mod3 and Mod4 mobs and I'm pretty sure I'll be switching to it when Mod4 goes live.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
I gave the Trapper tree a try yesterday versus Mod3 and Mod4 mobs and I'm pretty sure I'll be switching to it when Mod4 goes live
It is very fun to play I agree as it more demanding and you have to stay active all the time to get most of it :-). The sad part is that in pve dungeons and in pvp is downright worthless but hopefully some changes that boost trapper path (if the devs listens) will happend before it goes live.
It is very fun to play I agree as it more demanding and you have to stay active all the time to get most of it :-). The sad part is that in pve dungeons and in pvp is downright worthless but hopefully some changes that boost trapper path (if the devs listens) will happend before it goes live.
Trapper is a lot of fun, feels the closest to what I currently run on Live... but only when I'm doing dailies in DV and Shar and IWD.
As you say, it's underwhelming when it actually counts.
Comments
There won't be any roarers in Mod4. Roar is dead. Even if it wasn't, I'd still keep playing GWF without using Roar.
But anyway, the reason why is that GWF has the trifecta of DPS, Survivability & CC. Honestly every class should have a pie chart of DPS, Survivability, CC & Utility and each chart should add up to 100 points of effectiveness no matter how the chart splits. PWE doesn't understand this, though, and thus we have two top tier PvP classes (GWF & TR), one mid-tier class (CW), and the rest are bottom-tier classes as it currently stands going into Mod4 (though I should give preview GF another look, I'm hearing good things). I'm absolutely fine trading away one or more aspects of the pie chart as long as the other aspects are buffed, but simply dropping down to 50 points of effectiveness because of nerfs while other classes remain at 100 points is irritatingly stupid.
Without the lazy CC chain that ROAR-bug was and Takedown no longer proning, GWFs will actually require some more skill to play at a top level. But because it has CC immunity on demand, it's just going to continue to be fun to play and have a trump-everyone card since CC has no DR in this game. If GWF wasn't fun, I'd just quit at this point because of the lack of proper balancing. NW doesn't even have that many mechanics to it, so it's confusing how the changes aren't aimed at creating "effectiveness (read: fun) balance" in PvP & PvE.
Having played GWF more (still not using Roar on Live, I refuse), it's pretty fun facetanking people and sprinting all over the place. It takes work to actually chase down a competent CW or HR (maybe because I'm not all geared out, w/e), and that's cool.
HR is plenty of fun on Live, and I'll miss it come Mod4. But PvP is what's fun to play, so there's no point in having an HR anymore if they keep the current imbalance plans. RIP HR.
Maybe if they doubled the duration and damage of Disruptive Shot, I'd be fine with a complete CA rework.
I mean, every other class on Live gets some form of great CC as an Encounter power (typically 2 or more). Why don't HRs? Grasping Roots is weak, and it's even weaker on Preview. It doesn't sport the damage or duration to be useful yet.
Ideally, damaging Roots would become baseline for Rangers, the baseline duration would be doubled, and then the Trapper tree would further improve from there (minimum double current Roots damage with 100% of it dealt to CC immune targets, and increasing the duration to current levels +2/1 seconds, imo). Trapper could also give Roots some kind of debuff, so it helps even more in PvP and makes AOEing adds in PvE easier.
Then Constricting Arrow could be reworked into something that isn't a clone of Binding Arrow and plays with the roots mechanic (not enough abilities that do so anyway, currently) without a problem.
And then maybe they could buff some Heroic feats to replenish some of the lost survivability of AotLW and Wilds Medicine.
After all that, we'd be looking at a class that could better toe-to-toe with TR, GWF & CW, or better complement parties in PvE, but as it stands it's pointless to bring an HR when you can instead bring someone else.
I'm going to reiterate that every class should be as effective as the GWF in PvE and PvP. They can and should be differently specialized and kitted out, but when half the classes are just not as effective, it's grating to play anything but a top tier class.
Which means those areas where classes are lacking need to be buffed. (Rather than nerf GWF)
TR should be amazing ST hitters in PvE, and should have another option than Perma to be useful in PvP.
CWs should get a small survivability or dps boost to be better in PvP.
DCs should be able to do more than debuff in PvE and heal in PvP.
HRs should have some kind of arena where they rock (without needing a bugged pvp set), e.g. amazing ST or AOE DPS, or solid DPS + decent CC support.
GFs should bring enough DPS and Utility to a party to be useful in PvE, and have at least as much Survivability as a Sentinel GWF in PvP while dishing out more CC or Utility in place of a GWF's DPS.
And SWs look great for damage, so they'll be cool in PvE, but they look like wet noodles for PvP.
Anyway, /rant.
I don't feel bad for these changes coming at all because:
1. PvP will be fine because HRs may be getting nerfed, but so are other classes. Essentially these changes are necessary because with the other classes getting much weaker, and with the HR already being one of the top tier PvP classes, we would be risking HRs becoming too powerful. In the long run with GWF and CW getting weaker with us, you will see little to no change.
2. The new tree focuses on Hybrid HRs and scraps the useless and less taken feat tree, nature. I for one as a Hybrid HR will love to be able to focus on one tree instead of having to go half into Archery and half into Combat. Now Archery HRs may become weaker in combat, but will become even stronger in Archery, allowing them to be almost pure Archery like some wish. The same goes for combat.
3. These changes are really nothing compared to the nerfs the GWF and CW are getting. CW will only have about 25% of their original damage. GWFs will lose all of their prone encounters in PvP and lose 3x their DR in unstoppable.
Feel bad about our nerfs now? I for sure am glad the Devs didn't strike our class with the nerf fury of a thousand gods like that.
The HR will be alright. I've tested my main HR, Sky-Hawk, for hours on the preview shard using the Trapper tree while testing out the new campaign. We are still far from weak. I'm very confident that we may even be viable in PvE now with all that's happening to the GWF and CW. We also have less to worry less about GWFs and CWs in PvP.
I love the HR and will still continue playing mine after mod 4 goes live. In fact I'm confident that I will enjoy my HR with the new changes.
1. You dont read much do you as gwf dr in unstop been somewhat changed back + they get 30% dr and immunity when sprinting + sprinting use 40 % less stam whish means most will go for another 15% less stam drain meaning 55% less stam drain = 30%+dr + immunity to ccs between unstop good luck catching one. CW having 25% of their dam is a blunt lie and would concern pve when fighting mass mobs in pvp reality is that they will be able to lock cc alot more and the dam nerf isent close to 75% pure falsarium.
2.Many of the changes hasent hit preveiw yet so you cant test them against other classes.
Tell me what other classes do you play can it be cw tr and gwf maby just a guess......
A lot agree with the thread and just because you don't doesn't make the thread ridiculous. GWFs lost 3x their DR in unstoppable? 15-30% (Down from 25-50%) Totally 3x . I don't think anymore needs to be said however I'll continue. The nerf for GWFs is barely a nerf. They lost their prones? Boohoo it may actually take skill to land IBS which is ironic because most the GWFs crying about players needing skill to avoid Roar and Takedown are now crying that it may actually take some skill to land IBS. I've moved to GWFs briefly in this thread but I really think we should stay on the topic of HRs. Just because the big red monsters lost their prones and 10% DR and the squishy killers got animation time ups and a damage nerf doesn't mean HRs got none. Tankiness NERFED Healing Set NERFED Archery Damage ABOUT TO BE NERFED. But our only form of CC really? I'm getting the feeling that the devs added in the nerf because they didn't think the nubs who don't realize that on preview the healing set hasn't been nerfed yet would think that removing our tankiness, damage, and healing set was enough. Remember that gap between the split shot and fox shift nerf and right before pathfinder? All HRs dropped off earth and weren't a problem? That's how we're going to be just that the whole class is being deleted and replaced with CombatorMeleeWithASideDfUselessTrapperer class. I really was waiting for that class.... and to think everyone else was hoping for a paladin, warlock, or druid PFFFFFFFT
Well they are nerfing 2 of CW's commonly relied upon skills: Shard and Chill Strike.
Unless they rereleased new patch notes that buffed it back up.
They nerf some dam and add more cc how that balance out in pvp is to be tested but saying that cw class lost 75% dam overall is nothing but trolling....
Yup spot on. I honestly hope a dev reviews this and considers what the Hunter Rangers have to say like they do with the GWF
I gave the Trapper tree a try yesterday versus Mod3 and Mod4 mobs and I'm pretty sure I'll be switching to it when Mod4 goes live.
It is very fun to play I agree as it more demanding and you have to stay active all the time to get most of it :-). The sad part is that in pve dungeons and in pvp is downright worthless but hopefully some changes that boost trapper path (if the devs listens) will happend before it goes live.
Trapper is a lot of fun, feels the closest to what I currently run on Live... but only when I'm doing dailies in DV and Shar and IWD.
As you say, it's underwhelming when it actually counts.