Ah gotcha so relying on CWF AOE is valid and works. Re-ballancing so the controler *ahem* controls and the DPs hge lacks is done by a striker is just horrible. Or maybe you just really reaaallly like seeing your name on paingiver and are sad it might not be easy anymore?
I'll ignore the obvious jealousy as its irrelevant to the tactical discussion.
But this from a long line of experience in running dungeons.
Should be no secret to you at this point the GF was pretty much useless in Dungeons because he couldn't maintain or gain agro control once the mobs passed 8. Also... Few of the boss mobs are even tankable, they just sit there and throw things from a distance or use missile attacks while the mass mobs swarm you. Making the GF irrelevant generally in a group.
Problem 1: The GF was not capable of holding the point of attack and few if any boss mobs needed tanking.
Problem 2: The Ranger would end up splitting the mobs and some would be all over him killing his DPS on the group.
Problem 3: A CW Singularity can gather the mobs, but cannot hold them in that position minus Stunning them. And its a DAILY not an encounter power.
Problem 4: GWFs while great at the proning/stunning/AoE assist... aren't that good at agro control either... but great for CC.
As I was running CN and working with the failures of the GF class again, dropping mobs on top of them with Singularity only to watch them lose them again or not be able to hold it or to take the agro back... I realized they just could not hold the point of attack.
The GWF/CW groups worked great, but the mobs did tend to eventually spread out as we were working them.
Oppressive Force showed me that So long as the mobs were fixated on one target, they would run right back at them even if they could not attack.
Rangers in group showed me how often they end up in a practical sense spitting the mobs, and never get to actually DPS a group of mobs vs having to single target the ones they pulled off rather than an entire group. Killing their own DPS. CWs and GWFs cannot do much for them, as we focus on the main pack. Leaving the Ranger to fend for himself. Meaning he won't be able to participate in that group.
Solution:
If the GF or Tank could hold the point of attack in that group... and had the ability to instantly gather any and all agro in the room, acting as the Singularity At Will button... the GWF and the CW were close enough to be able to keep his shield from breaking before they overwhelmed him and died. On top of that, if the Ranger was not having mobs in his face all the time he could FINALLY concentrate ALL his DPS on the group as a whole.
The missing link was YOU as a GF.
Because you were unable to hold the point of attack in mass mobs or maintain agro for very long past 8 mobs. And there were no Boss mobs for you to really tank in the first place. Allowing you to hold the point of attack, and taking over the job of Singularity At Will, means you now become the protector class you were designed to be, and in great demand on top of that.
Nothing has to change, the Rangers are able to maintain full DPS, the Rogues are finally able to keep constant combat advantage, and your GWF and CW are able to keep you from being destroyed before your shield breaks.
The current Idea being tossed around is that the CW does no damage, but controls everything without doing any damage... but that just makes your job meaningless and un-needed yet again.
You CANT DPS. Clerics won't be healing anyone in those shoes. And only GWFs and potentially Rangers will be able to participate... Because the CW would end up doing your entire job and make you meaningless again.
You'll still be out in the cold.
BUT... if CWs maintained their DPS alongside the GWFs, AND you became the new Singularity At Will, for the group with the ability to hold the point of attack and a good 20 plus Mobs Temporarily, AND the Rangers could now participate again... YOU'D have a permanent role again and be worth something.
And nothing had to change much...
As it stands you're still out a job because of all these nerfs.... worse now you're on an island, and going to get wrecked.
So everything I was working on or pushing for... was all for nothing.
Again you view is myopic (as I pointed out on a similar thread IIRC) that is you are coming from the perspective of running CWF parties which is a sign of bad game ballance. When a party composed of 2 classes not only works, but works well the game is not ballanced. At all. It is a lot of fun for people pklaying those 2 classes. I know I run delves with my GWF when bored or drunk because it does not take any effort and is easy AD. If you'd played a GF you would know that it is an encounter not an instant that draws mass aggro (your singularity) on all mobs. There is an instant option of spamming threatening rush but because it was so broken when used by the GWF it is now being nerfed as well. They did buff threat generation for the GF so it may be possible to have that encounter 'singularity' but it is all for naught as the nerf to TR drops the GFs mobility and the new block mechanic is paper-thin. Only inexperienced archery glass-cannons string out mobs. Skilled players do the same thing the CW does. They stack LS and pull their aggro into the pile where everyone can hit it. So IF (and that's a big if) they recant on the guard re-work even a less mobile GF might be able to hold the mobs together assisted by a CW CONTROLLING (odd thought that for the DPS WIzard) the mobs to assist in this endeavor the HR can lay down sufficient DPS to finish them off (given the new set of feats) GWFs can off-tank loose mobs wnd the TR can focus the high HP targets while DCs can de-buff and heal. This, unfortunately for some, will not be as mind-numbingly easy as having the CWs cycle their timers while the GWF holds down left-click and plaintively taps tab while using whatever encounter is available. Horrifying I know.....
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Again you view is myopic (as I pointed out on a similar thread IIRC) that is you are coming from the perspective of running CWF parties which is a sign of bad game ballance. When a party composed of 2 classes not only works, but works well the game is not ballanced. At all. It is a lot of fun for people pklaying those 2 classes. .....
Well don't blame me for that,
That lays squarely on the Devs for designing the PvE content in a way that completely eliminates your class and makes you irrelevant.
The only way you can BE relevant is if you can contribute to mass mobs. That will require two things... Agro Control or the ability to instantly gain it or take it back... and a shield that will not break against a good 20+ mobs.
Combine the two correctly and it gives you the role everyone wants out of the CW... Singularity, except YOURs would be an encounter power... not a DAILY.
IF...... they turned the CW into an actual all out control class with no damage... it will completely eliminate you from the game. Because it would mean no need for any tank any longer. And there won't be any need for cleric healing either. Only for DPS... So you just ended up in the same shoes all over again.
Not only will you be useless on Boss mobs, but you'll be useless in Mass Mobs too. I was hoping to at least make GFs useful in one of them because they cannot be useful on the other.
But everything I just worked for went into the tank due to nerfs... you're on your own now.
1. GF is not my main. I just happen to play one sometimes so I (unlike you) actually know how they work.
2. Gf can do damage while aggroing mobs. It is difficult but it can be done.
3. If you are winning with a party composition that the average PUG will win with (and trust me my GWF is all-pug all the time. LFG is home to him. Just grab some CWFs and maybe a De-buff DC and roflpwn all content.) Then you may want to reconsider how 'good' you are at this game. Hint: Not very!
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
1. GF is not my main. I just happen to play one sometimes so I (unlike you) actually know how they work.
2. Gf can do damage while aggroing mobs. It is difficult but it can be done.
3. If you are winning with a party composition that the average PUG will win with (and trust me my GWF is all-pug all the time. LFG is home to him. Just grab some CWFs and maybe a De-buff DC and roflpwn all content.) Then you may want to reconsider how 'good' you are at this game. Hint: Not very!
Well then.. let me put it bluntly...
You can either make the game easy by NOT including GFs...
Or you can make it easy and INLCUDE GFs...
Pick one... because right now.... the devs just picked the wrong answer on ALL counts.
Shame really, because if they'd have picked the right one... rather than the nerfaholic one.... things could be a lot different for GFs about now.
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noerqMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited June 2014
Some people haven't realized that this is no "nerfaholic" approach, but a "bring things back in line where they belong" approach. If you can't figure out why less control for CW and less survivability for GWF is important to include GFs into the game, I think noone here can help you anyways.
It's about time that the roflstomping CWF fotm groups are history, once and for all!
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2014
Control powers.... weren't nerfed... damage was...
GWFs were never truly tanking in the first place... they were just CCing, dodging the red... and occasionally popping unstoppable... if you cannot understand that...
I think the balance needs to be so that every class can actually solo, the solo content, so be sure to actually test it and give information on that.
Doing daily quests as GF is fine. It was never a problem by the way, even with my old Protector build, it was just longer...
I can do some minor HE solo on live but can not do it on preview (they seem bugged also).
GF in the current state of preview can not handle large packs of mobs.
Having Enforced Threat taunting more targets is dangerous if GFs with their own stats/tools can not manage this situation.
I do not blame people wishing to have more interaction between classes, each one acting as support for another. You just clearly define a role to each class. Classes have different paths, multiple equipment sets to allow playing the way you want.
If each class is strictly labeled to a specific role in dungeons, you would not do much if one is missing or the spec is not suitable for a praticular case.
I feel safe when I know I can do my job just fine "alone" and increase the success to fulfill my role by receiving help from other classes. Team work should not be forced in a way where you need them to do just fine, it should be you need them to do GREAT.
You can either make the game easy by NOT including GFs...
Or you can make it easy and INLCUDE GFs...
Pick one... because right now.... the devs just picked the wrong answer on ALL counts.
Shame really, because if they'd have picked the right one... rather than the nerfaholic one.... things could be a lot different for GFs about now.
Who wants easy things? Games are for fun not a second job that you don't get paid for. I mean our new T3 content came out and relly it's not hard. I'd hope that in Mod4 there are some really difficult dungeons that require teamwork and coordination to survive.
Who wants easy things? Games are for fun not a second job that you don't get paid for. I mean our new T3 content came out and relly it's not hard. I'd hope that in Mod4 there are some really difficult dungeons that require teamwork and coordination to survive.
I've asking for something like that since I play this game, I want a dungeon where you need a godly team to do it, not just run and destroy everything with no fun to sell stuff in the AH, that's boring for me.
Not even a godly team but a team thaat makes plans and changes strategies. The best, most memorable dungeon experiences for me was when I was new and there would be that post-wipe conversation by the gate where we would work out how to beat the room. It's kind of why VT is my favorite still because you can have ungodly stats buiut if you don't coordinate as a team it will wipe.
Or you know, one could actually play with the new builds and enhance it to last for 8-10 seconds. My opinion though is it needs to drain a little slower, or give some stamina regen on certain feats.
Please tell me how you got 8 - 10 seconds of guard? Wearing Profound PVP gear and slotting Shield Talent I get ~ 7 seconds of shield.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
The GF as is on Preview cannot compensate for the scaled back CW and less tanky GWF.
I can see what the devs tried to do but the GF's shield and lack of survivability (5k more HP means nothing when 20 monsters are swarming around your broken guard) will not be able to cope with a ''weaker'' CW and softer GWF.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I've noticed in the forum posts for each of these classes that a lot of people are complaining about losing certain aspects of their class while not gaining any compensation. GWFs want more mobility because they lost a lot of survivability. CWs want more control because they lost a lot of damage.
GFs have only been improved (except maybe frontline), but many of them don't seem convinced that the changes will be enough.
I think people are forgetting that this is a team game, and that these changes were made in relation to each other, to change how these classes interact.
The fact of the matter is, the developers want GFs to do their job and not have that job stolen from them by CWs and GWFs. CWs ask where is their control to compensate for the loss of damage? Now it's the GFs'. Where is the GWF tankiness and how are they going to survive? They're going to have to rely more on the GF. That's the point.
And GFs are asking, what's the point of getting more threat if GWFs and CWs can just obliterate everything in the game? The answer is no, GWFs and CWs won't be able to just obliterate everything anymore.
***
So here is my question. Do you think the relationship between these three classes is going to change significantly with the coming of module 4? Will they finally be in harmony or will things just be a disaster still?
This thread is also a call to remember that your class is not the only one changing, whether you're a GF, CW, or GWF.
Have a nice day all!
From what I've seen on the test shard so far, I would say no.
GF on test shard has been nerfed, severely. GF still feels un-needed in PvE. If it were live today, I see party composition of 2CW / 2GWF (or HR) / DC with no place for GF.
I've noticed in the forum posts for each of these classes that a lot of people are complaining about losing certain aspects of their class while not gaining any compensation. GWFs want more mobility because they lost a lot of survivability. CWs want more control because they lost a lot of damage.
GFs have only been improved (except maybe frontline), but many of them don't seem convinced that the changes will be enough.
I think people are forgetting that this is a team game, and that these changes were made in relation to each other, to change how these classes interact.
The fact of the matter is, the developers want GFs to do their job and not have that job stolen from them by CWs and GWFs. CWs ask where is their control to compensate for the loss of damage? Now it's the GFs'. Where is the GWF tankiness and how are they going to survive? They're going to have to rely more on the GF. That's the point.
And GFs are asking, what's the point of getting more threat if GWFs and CWs can just obliterate everything in the game? The answer is no, GWFs and CWs won't be able to just obliterate everything anymore.
***
So here is my question. Do you think the relationship between these three classes is going to change significantly with the coming of module 4? Will they finally be in harmony or will things just be a disaster still?
This thread is also a call to remember that your class is not the only one changing, whether you're a GF, CW, or GWF.
Have a nice day all!
I think CWs in PVE will still be top dog, I think CW in PVP will be far better now GWF lost some mobility.
I think GWF will still be #2-3 in PVE and #1-#2 in PVP as they still will do massive damage, have a great tool box of control and cc immunity, sprints, and will need to use their Threatening Rushes more tactfully now instead of spamming it around a pillar waiting for Takedown to refresh! The GWF will need to spec for more survivability or more DPS, just like everyone else!
The GF, getting buffed and nerfed at the same time kinda sucks, we lose some mobility and FLS because of the GWFs... I will test preview tonight and see this new guard feature, but I am happy the GF is getting some more HP. Hopefully they buff Defense for the GF and look into his animation times maybe change cleave to 180 arc, but hopefully we are better then previous.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Comments
I'll ignore the obvious jealousy as its irrelevant to the tactical discussion.
But this from a long line of experience in running dungeons.
Should be no secret to you at this point the GF was pretty much useless in Dungeons because he couldn't maintain or gain agro control once the mobs passed 8. Also... Few of the boss mobs are even tankable, they just sit there and throw things from a distance or use missile attacks while the mass mobs swarm you. Making the GF irrelevant generally in a group.
Problem 1: The GF was not capable of holding the point of attack and few if any boss mobs needed tanking.
Problem 2: The Ranger would end up splitting the mobs and some would be all over him killing his DPS on the group.
Problem 3: A CW Singularity can gather the mobs, but cannot hold them in that position minus Stunning them. And its a DAILY not an encounter power.
Problem 4: GWFs while great at the proning/stunning/AoE assist... aren't that good at agro control either... but great for CC.
As I was running CN and working with the failures of the GF class again, dropping mobs on top of them with Singularity only to watch them lose them again or not be able to hold it or to take the agro back... I realized they just could not hold the point of attack.
The GWF/CW groups worked great, but the mobs did tend to eventually spread out as we were working them.
Oppressive Force showed me that So long as the mobs were fixated on one target, they would run right back at them even if they could not attack.
Rangers in group showed me how often they end up in a practical sense spitting the mobs, and never get to actually DPS a group of mobs vs having to single target the ones they pulled off rather than an entire group. Killing their own DPS. CWs and GWFs cannot do much for them, as we focus on the main pack. Leaving the Ranger to fend for himself. Meaning he won't be able to participate in that group.
Solution:
If the GF or Tank could hold the point of attack in that group... and had the ability to instantly gather any and all agro in the room, acting as the Singularity At Will button... the GWF and the CW were close enough to be able to keep his shield from breaking before they overwhelmed him and died. On top of that, if the Ranger was not having mobs in his face all the time he could FINALLY concentrate ALL his DPS on the group as a whole.
The missing link was YOU as a GF.
Because you were unable to hold the point of attack in mass mobs or maintain agro for very long past 8 mobs. And there were no Boss mobs for you to really tank in the first place. Allowing you to hold the point of attack, and taking over the job of Singularity At Will, means you now become the protector class you were designed to be, and in great demand on top of that.
Nothing has to change, the Rangers are able to maintain full DPS, the Rogues are finally able to keep constant combat advantage, and your GWF and CW are able to keep you from being destroyed before your shield breaks.
The current Idea being tossed around is that the CW does no damage, but controls everything without doing any damage... but that just makes your job meaningless and un-needed yet again.
You CANT DPS. Clerics won't be healing anyone in those shoes. And only GWFs and potentially Rangers will be able to participate... Because the CW would end up doing your entire job and make you meaningless again.
You'll still be out in the cold.
BUT... if CWs maintained their DPS alongside the GWFs, AND you became the new Singularity At Will, for the group with the ability to hold the point of attack and a good 20 plus Mobs Temporarily, AND the Rangers could now participate again... YOU'D have a permanent role again and be worth something.
And nothing had to change much...
As it stands you're still out a job because of all these nerfs.... worse now you're on an island, and going to get wrecked.
So everything I was working on or pushing for... was all for nothing.
Well don't blame me for that,
That lays squarely on the Devs for designing the PvE content in a way that completely eliminates your class and makes you irrelevant.
The only way you can BE relevant is if you can contribute to mass mobs. That will require two things... Agro Control or the ability to instantly gain it or take it back... and a shield that will not break against a good 20+ mobs.
Combine the two correctly and it gives you the role everyone wants out of the CW... Singularity, except YOURs would be an encounter power... not a DAILY.
IF...... they turned the CW into an actual all out control class with no damage... it will completely eliminate you from the game. Because it would mean no need for any tank any longer. And there won't be any need for cleric healing either. Only for DPS... So you just ended up in the same shoes all over again.
Not only will you be useless on Boss mobs, but you'll be useless in Mass Mobs too. I was hoping to at least make GFs useful in one of them because they cannot be useful on the other.
But everything I just worked for went into the tank due to nerfs... you're on your own now.
2. Gf can do damage while aggroing mobs. It is difficult but it can be done.
3. If you are winning with a party composition that the average PUG will win with (and trust me my GWF is all-pug all the time. LFG is home to him. Just grab some CWFs and maybe a De-buff DC and roflpwn all content.) Then you may want to reconsider how 'good' you are at this game. Hint: Not very!
Well then.. let me put it bluntly...
You can either make the game easy by NOT including GFs...
Or you can make it easy and INLCUDE GFs...
Pick one... because right now.... the devs just picked the wrong answer on ALL counts.
Shame really, because if they'd have picked the right one... rather than the nerfaholic one.... things could be a lot different for GFs about now.
It's about time that the roflstomping CWF fotm groups are history, once and for all!
GWFs were never truly tanking in the first place... they were just CCing, dodging the red... and occasionally popping unstoppable... if you cannot understand that...
... then you're doomed to fail...
.... yet again.
Doing daily quests as GF is fine. It was never a problem by the way, even with my old Protector build, it was just longer...
I can do some minor HE solo on live but can not do it on preview (they seem bugged also).
GF in the current state of preview can not handle large packs of mobs.
Having Enforced Threat taunting more targets is dangerous if GFs with their own stats/tools can not manage this situation.
I do not blame people wishing to have more interaction between classes, each one acting as support for another. You just clearly define a role to each class. Classes have different paths, multiple equipment sets to allow playing the way you want.
If each class is strictly labeled to a specific role in dungeons, you would not do much if one is missing or the spec is not suitable for a praticular case.
I feel safe when I know I can do my job just fine "alone" and increase the success to fulfill my role by receiving help from other classes. Team work should not be forced in a way where you need them to do just fine, it should be you need them to do GREAT.
Who wants easy things? Games are for fun not a second job that you don't get paid for. I mean our new T3 content came out and relly it's not hard. I'd hope that in Mod4 there are some really difficult dungeons that require teamwork and coordination to survive.
I've asking for something like that since I play this game, I want a dungeon where you need a godly team to do it, not just run and destroy everything with no fun to sell stuff in the AH, that's boring for me.
Please tell me how you got 8 - 10 seconds of guard? Wearing Profound PVP gear and slotting Shield Talent I get ~ 7 seconds of shield.
I can see what the devs tried to do but the GF's shield and lack of survivability (5k more HP means nothing when 20 monsters are swarming around your broken guard) will not be able to cope with a ''weaker'' CW and softer GWF.
From what I've seen on the test shard so far, I would say no.
GF on test shard has been nerfed, severely. GF still feels un-needed in PvE. If it were live today, I see party composition of 2CW / 2GWF (or HR) / DC with no place for GF.
I think CWs in PVE will still be top dog, I think CW in PVP will be far better now GWF lost some mobility.
I think GWF will still be #2-3 in PVE and #1-#2 in PVP as they still will do massive damage, have a great tool box of control and cc immunity, sprints, and will need to use their Threatening Rushes more tactfully now instead of spamming it around a pillar waiting for Takedown to refresh! The GWF will need to spec for more survivability or more DPS, just like everyone else!
The GF, getting buffed and nerfed at the same time kinda sucks, we lose some mobility and FLS because of the GWFs... I will test preview tonight and see this new guard feature, but I am happy the GF is getting some more HP. Hopefully they buff Defense for the GF and look into his animation times maybe change cleave to 180 arc, but hopefully we are better then previous.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!