My experience since the introduction of the leaver penalty has been nothing but positive. Games finishing 5v5 went from being rare to being common and while super close games don't appear to be hugely more frequent, the majority of the games I play finish with both sides scoring more than 500, with both sides continuing to compete to the end. I reckon less than 30% of my games are now washouts with campfire sitters or quitters.
It's hard to know how representative this is since I've no idea what my Elo is. I'd like to think I was in the top half of the bell curve tho
Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW
Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?
First of all, relax and remember this is a discussion, nothing personal, so leave the attacks at the door.
[snip]
It boils down to the carrot versus the stick. I tend to lean more toward the carrot, particularly in a F2P game. Wield that stick too hard, too often, and you drive off players. Use the carrot in it's place, where applicable, and you encourage more people to play your game, or some particular aspect of that game.
I like your train of thoughts, but someone with the ability to take the perspective of others and willing to do so is rarely encountered on the forums.
As you said yourself, and I think PWE also states, this is a F2P game. GAME. I do not see sticks in game.
There certainly are people who like some "stick" experience, but as their nature and motivation is hidden to me I want to point out this STICK and the word GAME should not be used in the same sentence.
And I agree that it is the systems fault if people join a game mode that they actually do not want to join.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
This is why you do not take the leaver penalty off. Removing it will just let people go right back to leaving matches and putting the rest of us into 3v5 fights.
And it is a design fault that 3v5 matches stay 3v5. This has nothing to do with leaver penalty.
AFAIK it has not been addressed why people leave in the first place. But maybe you can enlighten me which actions have been taken to encourage people to stay in a obviously lost match - imagine the common pre-made vs a PuG.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
People in this game, specifically the ones who used to leave matches all the time, do not care about how much reward you give them. They want wins. That's all they care about. If it looks like they won't get an easy win, they leave. This is why you do not take the leaver penalty off. Removing it will just let people go right back to leaving matches and putting the rest of us into 3v5 fights.
The problem with 3v5 fights? You lose. It's guaranteed unless you're fighting a team of 5 that's indescribably bad at PvP.
You know the problem with losing, don't you? The rewards for losing are terrible compared to the rewards for winning - and necessarily so, as the better rewards for winning are the whole motivation for trying to win in the first place.
First, read the entire proposal I made, I think it addresses your concerns nicely. Second, I think your "leavers" are only a sub group, and their intent was to farm Glory quickly, not "win". Winning was secondary to farming glory, because winning in the old system was meaningless outside of the glory gain and bragging rights (and what's the point of bragging that you found a bad pug team to stomp?).
Third (oops), if you look at my proposal, it still calls for the leaver penalty to be in place at the end of the day, specifically to counteract people who exploit. Which, is exactly what you're calling for. So, go ahead and read the whole thing, don't get focused on one minor detail. I'm seriously looking for some quality feedback/discussion as a way to theoretically test my proposal and see if it needs tweaking.
My experience since the introduction of the leaver penalty has been nothing but positive. Games finishing 5v5 went from being rare to being common
I had quite a few matcher where 1 from the "not optimal performing team" had an unfortunate disconnect after 3 minutes, just to have a reconnect after ~10 minutes.
I don't know if
* people gamble and risk to get the penalty, but matches rarely end soon @ 100:200.
* a team of 2 joins, 1 disconnects and they help each other to being online when the match ends
but certainly something dodgy going on.
Can I prove that? No.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
I had quite a few matcher where 1 from the "not optimal performing team" had an unfortunate disconnect after 3 minutes, just to have a reconnect after ~10 minutes.
I don't know if
* people gamble and risk to get the penalty, but matches rarely end soon @ 100:200.
* a team of 2 joins, 1 disconnects and they help each other to being online when the match ends
but certainly something dodgy going on.
Can I prove that? No.
For some reason sometimes i experience a very high ping.. so i need to reconnect in order to fix that. I;ve seen others encountering this.
Oh yeah, I hate it when I manage to get to their homebase and start capping it alone, and another of my group comes to the same base, one of us is enough.
Yeah, happens too often in pugs. I'm capping an uncontested base, enemies are all on other bases, and two idiots from my "team" show up and sit on the base I'm on. I even try to tell them to move on to the other bases but they don't move. I think some of them believe the cap points actually matter instead of the win, or to win they need the cap points? My favorite is luring two or three enemies off a base to fight so my teammates can cap it but instead they run *across* the base to join in the fight. Oh the agony of pugs.
My experience since the introduction of the leaver penalty has been nothing but positive. QUOTE]
Ok, so perhaps not uniformly. Just lost 1000 to 65. 2 14k players and 3 9.5k vs an EoA premade . We tried. We failed. 2 kills on our side (none by me).
Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW
Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?
My experience since the introduction of the leaver penalty has been nothing but positive. QUOTE]
Ok, so perhaps not uniformly. Just lost 1000 to 65. 2 14k players and 3 9.5k vs an EoA premade . We tried. We failed. 2 kills on our side (none by me).
Oh mee oh my. Please do not accuse me of personal attacks. I was merely pointing out flaws in your argument and thought process you laid out, not at you. I don't know you.
That is all you need to learn. The carrot involves incentives for participation and penalties for leaving. Its really simple.
Again, since you have not sufficiently addressed the point, I will say that I have SEEN improvements in the amount of AFKers ever since the patch. You claim that you don't. I don't know you and I haven't seen every one of your games so I'll take your word for it. That is the crux of your argument against the penalty system and that is mine in favor of it.
Add participation rewards and keep the penalty system in place.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited April 2014
Checkout Neverwinter Preview and see if you like any of the 3 Artifacts offered for Glory (Power, Stability, union 1 each).
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bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If the point of imposing a penalty for leaving a PvP match is to stop people from leaving matches that have not completed, then would you agree that some situation exists that causes people to want to leave matches instead of playing them out?
Yes, I would agree, but this is in the majority a playerbase issue, not a flaw within the design that can simply be fixed.
Even if close matches were always the norm, which the ELO system strives to do, in time, one would still have the problem with those that want naught but an easy win. This is not a problem anyone but that individual with this mentality can possibly solve, it's an entitlement issue, they want their rewards, the maximum they can get, without any challenge, and they want them noaw. To try to address these players within the code is folly, a never-ending rabbit hole of epic proportions, as anything done to address the issue simply has these types seeking a different way to do it. @see leaver penalty.
Even the best players do sometimes find themselves at the bottom of the list. If you then want to make it about playing the wrong class then either change the class or change the way you play. You really should adapt to your team composition and the opponent's team. You cannot play the same style over and over again. If you do then you will of course fail more often than not.
There is however no player who constantly and always sits at the top of the score list and who only needs to do 2 or 3 matches for the dailies. And the players who are really good at PvP and who you perhaps expect to be at the top more often than yourself do play many matches a day and not only 4 like you do. So it may seem like they are having an advantage, but they are really playing a lot more matches than you think. If they had to do 2 or 8 matches to complete the dailies will matter very little to them.
A Cryptic dev once stated that they wanted to know why people afk at campfires well here is a very good example of why.
If there was no rewards for PvP then I suppose I could understand how someone could ask this question, unless of course they have never PvPed themselves.
In this game though, a lot of people PvP for glory. If a player is certain they are going to lose, they can get more glory/hour if they afk at campfire and let the opponents quickly win so that they can get into another match sooner with a chance to win. The real culprit is that winning a match gives a substantially higher proportion of glory than losing.
I think if winning and losing gave the same amount of glory, campfire afking would be quit rare.
I think if winning and losing gave the same amount of glory, campfire afking would be quit rare.
No, as one would get even more in the end by losing and AFKing. If the sole purpose for PvPing is glory gain, this road will be chosen.
You'd have to have a minimum for getting through the PvP match(either side), and then some points for damage dealt/received/nodes captured.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
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bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think if winning and losing gave the same amount of glory, campfire afking would be quit rare.
I think if the devs removed the training wheels on this kindergarten PVP, and losing gave 0 glory, instead of the 'consolation prize', nobody would ever do this.
You supply the cause yourself, they can gain more glory by throwing the match.
People would just start abusing that change. Imagine, there is no need to push yourself so hard while you can just stand on campfire and wait...
Sometimes I want to TK someone out of the campfire with my bull charge when I PvP on my Guardian Fighter.
I wish we could get some points just for the time we waste for holding the caps.
How about you just give us a PREMADE-QUE? That is what alot off us hardcore pvpers would like, its more fun for the pugs not to get stomped, and vice versa. I cant find ONE good reason to not have this.
How about you just give us a PREMADE-QUE? That is what alot off us hardcore pvpers would like, its more fun for the pugs not to get stomped, and vice versa. I cant find ONE good reason to not have this.
Rather strongly put, but I don't see why this shouldn't be implemented.
How about you just give us a PREMADE-QUE? That is what alot off us hardcore pvpers would like, its more fun for the pugs not to get stomped, and vice versa. I cant find ONE good reason to not have this.
a lack of players perhaps...also what if 4-man parties queue up? Will they get paired with a PUG?
I agree though, I want a premade queue too
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
Yes, I would agree, but this is in the majority a playerbase issue, not a flaw within the design that can simply be fixed.
Even if close matches were always the norm, which the ELO system strives to do, in time, one would still have the problem with those that want naught but an easy win. This is not a problem anyone but that individual with this mentality can possibly solve, it's an entitlement issue, they want their rewards, the maximum they can get, without any challenge, and they want them noaw. To try to address these players within the code is folly, a never-ending rabbit hole of epic proportions, as anything done to address the issue simply has these types seeking a different way to do it. @see leaver penalty.
...and if you go back and read the entire proposal, you will see that I addressed the issue of people exploiting (match shopping for easy wins would fall into that category), by ultimately re-instating the leaver penalty. That point seems to be missed on several people who see "remove leaver penalty" and get up in arms and feel the need to respond immediately instead of reading the entire position. At no point am I suggesting that positive reinforcement alone will fix everything. What I'm saying is that you can fix the bulk of the issues, you can make it a positive experience for the majority of people who PvP, and you can use feedback in the form of people quitting matches to track how those changes impact the system. Once you feel like you've created an experience that the majority appreciate (which you can see by tracking the number of people who leave matches), THEN you re-institute the penalty to account for exploiters and that small percentage of people that you will just never please.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
I think if the devs removed the training wheels on this kindergarten PVP, and losing gave 0 glory, instead of the 'consolation prize', nobody would ever do this.
You supply the cause yourself, they can gain more glory by throwing the match.
I disagree completely. If losing gave zero Glory, instead of this minimal amount it does now, they would still afk/camp spawn when they felt the match was not one they had a possibility of winning. Not only that, but you still have the reward tied to the daily task as well.
However, I would argue that my proposal does two things that address this:
One, it removes any incentive for people to queue up and afk/camp as they would earn no reward.
Two, it derives their overall reward, in a loss, by activity measures that show they were participating in the match. The more they fight, the more they earn.
Comments
It's hard to know how representative this is since I've no idea what my Elo is. I'd like to think I was in the top half of the bell curve tho
As you said yourself, and I think PWE also states, this is a F2P game. GAME. I do not see sticks in game.
There certainly are people who like some "stick" experience, but as their nature and motivation is hidden to me I want to point out this STICK and the word GAME should not be used in the same sentence.
And I agree that it is the systems fault if people join a game mode that they actually do not want to join.
AFAIK it has not been addressed why people leave in the first place. But maybe you can enlighten me which actions have been taken to encourage people to stay in a obviously lost match - imagine the common pre-made vs a PuG.
First, read the entire proposal I made, I think it addresses your concerns nicely. Second, I think your "leavers" are only a sub group, and their intent was to farm Glory quickly, not "win". Winning was secondary to farming glory, because winning in the old system was meaningless outside of the glory gain and bragging rights (and what's the point of bragging that you found a bad pug team to stomp?).
Third (oops), if you look at my proposal, it still calls for the leaver penalty to be in place at the end of the day, specifically to counteract people who exploit. Which, is exactly what you're calling for. So, go ahead and read the whole thing, don't get focused on one minor detail. I'm seriously looking for some quality feedback/discussion as a way to theoretically test my proposal and see if it needs tweaking.
I don't know if
* people gamble and risk to get the penalty, but matches rarely end soon @ 100:200.
* a team of 2 joins, 1 disconnects and they help each other to being online when the match ends
but certainly something dodgy going on.
Can I prove that? No.
For some reason sometimes i experience a very high ping.. so i need to reconnect in order to fix that. I;ve seen others encountering this.
Yeah, happens too often in pugs. I'm capping an uncontested base, enemies are all on other bases, and two idiots from my "team" show up and sit on the base I'm on. I even try to tell them to move on to the other bases but they don't move. I think some of them believe the cap points actually matter instead of the win, or to win they need the cap points? My favorite is luring two or three enemies off a base to fight so my teammates can cap it but instead they run *across* the base to join in the fight. Oh the agony of pugs.
That is all you need to learn. The carrot involves incentives for participation and penalties for leaving. Its really simple.
Again, since you have not sufficiently addressed the point, I will say that I have SEEN improvements in the amount of AFKers ever since the patch. You claim that you don't. I don't know you and I haven't seen every one of your games so I'll take your word for it. That is the crux of your argument against the penalty system and that is mine in favor of it.
Add participation rewards and keep the penalty system in place.
Even if close matches were always the norm, which the ELO system strives to do, in time, one would still have the problem with those that want naught but an easy win. This is not a problem anyone but that individual with this mentality can possibly solve, it's an entitlement issue, they want their rewards, the maximum they can get, without any challenge, and they want them noaw. To try to address these players within the code is folly, a never-ending rabbit hole of epic proportions, as anything done to address the issue simply has these types seeking a different way to do it. @see leaver penalty.
There is however no player who constantly and always sits at the top of the score list and who only needs to do 2 or 3 matches for the dailies. And the players who are really good at PvP and who you perhaps expect to be at the top more often than yourself do play many matches a day and not only 4 like you do. So it may seem like they are having an advantage, but they are really playing a lot more matches than you think. If they had to do 2 or 8 matches to complete the dailies will matter very little to them.
You might just be jealous for no reason.
If there was no rewards for PvP then I suppose I could understand how someone could ask this question, unless of course they have never PvPed themselves.
In this game though, a lot of people PvP for glory. If a player is certain they are going to lose, they can get more glory/hour if they afk at campfire and let the opponents quickly win so that they can get into another match sooner with a chance to win. The real culprit is that winning a match gives a substantially higher proportion of glory than losing.
I think if winning and losing gave the same amount of glory, campfire afking would be quit rare.
You'd have to have a minimum for getting through the PvP match(either side), and then some points for damage dealt/received/nodes captured.
I think if the devs removed the training wheels on this kindergarten PVP, and losing gave 0 glory, instead of the 'consolation prize', nobody would ever do this.
You supply the cause yourself, they can gain more glory by throwing the match.
Sometimes I want to TK someone out of the campfire with my bull charge when I PvP on my Guardian Fighter.
I wish we could get some points just for the time we waste for holding the caps.
WTB Class Reroll please
Rather strongly put, but I don't see why this shouldn't be implemented.
a lack of players perhaps...also what if 4-man parties queue up? Will they get paired with a PUG?
I agree though, I want a premade queue too
...and if you go back and read the entire proposal, you will see that I addressed the issue of people exploiting (match shopping for easy wins would fall into that category), by ultimately re-instating the leaver penalty. That point seems to be missed on several people who see "remove leaver penalty" and get up in arms and feel the need to respond immediately instead of reading the entire position. At no point am I suggesting that positive reinforcement alone will fix everything. What I'm saying is that you can fix the bulk of the issues, you can make it a positive experience for the majority of people who PvP, and you can use feedback in the form of people quitting matches to track how those changes impact the system. Once you feel like you've created an experience that the majority appreciate (which you can see by tracking the number of people who leave matches), THEN you re-institute the penalty to account for exploiters and that small percentage of people that you will just never please.
I disagree completely. If losing gave zero Glory, instead of this minimal amount it does now, they would still afk/camp spawn when they felt the match was not one they had a possibility of winning. Not only that, but you still have the reward tied to the daily task as well.
However, I would argue that my proposal does two things that address this:
One, it removes any incentive for people to queue up and afk/camp as they would earn no reward.
Two, it derives their overall reward, in a loss, by activity measures that show they were participating in the match. The more they fight, the more they earn.
Its simple really.
Nobody has come up with a good argument against it, cryptic, what are you waiting for?