Jinadu, you assume that all players are geared equally, then you spank them, then they run away and thats being a coward. Nothing could be further from the truth. All of my toons are over 13k. Most over 14k. On my TR, i frequently have to pull back to regen a bit before trying to move in again on point. That's called strategy. We do this because most of us do not have the 50% dmg resist of GF or GWF.
In many matches (even now) teams are so unbalanced you have 3 players at 9k fighting a whole team of players at 14k+. They have no option but to try and run and regen. Whats sad is that a lot of great players have pulled together some really nice builds for all different classes and when they don't seem to "act" as another player 'perceives' that they should its "not playing fair" or "cowardly".
I am not great at PVP but i know without a doubt the best players will analyze the situation, adapt and overcome. Perma-Stealth is one of the solutions that was created to "overcome" the lack of dmg resist from the TR class. Its not the only solution, but one of them. (edit) Let's try this again, Perma-stealth seems to be one of the better builds to allow a TR to cap and hold points. (edit)
See you on the battle field. I will probably be whining about something in PVP zone chat.
Tod, I tried to send you a message (question) but it seems like it never shows as "sent". Here it is just in case
Tod,
Seems a lot of rogues are utilizing PoTB in pvp but it seems to be very effective if their are 2 TRs and they are in groups. 1 using potb and the other using smoke (stealthed) at the same time.
My question is this, if you are normally a perma-TR, if you have PoTB and want to use it effectively, do you use it while stealthed for faster pulse or do you use it unstealthed knowing its going to do a longer damage pulse on the node? Also do you use ITC while pulsing or engage shadow? (i am asking from a PUG perspective)
Tod, I tried to send you a message (question) but it seems like it never shows as "sent". Here it is just in case
Tod,
Seems a lot of rogues are utilizing PoTB in pvp but it seems to be very effective if their are 2 TRs and they are in groups. 1 using potb and the other using smoke (stealthed) at the same time.
My question is this, if you are normally a perma-TR, if you have PoTB and want to use it effectively, do you use it while stealthed for faster pulse or do you use it unstealthed knowing its going to do a longer damage pulse on the node? Also do you use ITC while pulsing or engage shadow? (i am asking from a PUG perspective)
Thanks so much for your time!
StevenX
I would use PoB without stealth for prolonged use, and ItC under stealth for immortality. It changes according to what encounters you have slotted
I would use PoB without stealth for prolonged use, and ItC under stealth for immortality. It changes according to what encounters you have slotted
Keep in mind though that you can activate ITC at any point in a move. By timing it properly, you can activate ITC and PoTB both from stealth at the same time to use the "stealth" version of the moves. This also works with shadow strike so that you could put a daze on someone as well as get dodge immunity. This is limited in its usefulness for 1v1 (but is still fantastic in some situations), but in 2v1 or 2v2, ect. you could put a daze on an opponent that is going for your ally and then try to hold any other enemies while you have immunity. That being said, the only time I'd use PoTB from stealth is if the target already has low hp. Otherwise just leave it normal so that you can get shadow strike off faster in relation to ITC to help maintain the stealth rotation and keep PoTB up longer in case you are fighting a rogue or an enemy rogue comes.
I tend to always combo ITC + SS stealth versions whenever I am using my stealth rotation for the daze and dodge immunity even if its just 1v1 though.
One thing that i completely agree with that either Tod or Xyn had mentioned was swapping weapon enchants based on group makeup. 2 Tr's = pbile. 1 or none = pvorpal. Still trying to figure out when going against 2 GF's which i like.
I truly appreciate all the advice on the forums. You guys really do help
One thing that i completely agree with that either Tod or Xyn had mentioned was swapping weapon enchants based on group makeup. 2 Tr's = pbile. 1 or none = pvorpal. Still trying to figure out when going against 2 GF's which i like.
I truly appreciate all the advice on the forums. You guys really do help
I would go P.Bile, it eats up GF shield and GWF through unstoppable like nothing. I've been using it in pvp for the last few days and am loving it.
I don't think im that great either, I could be a lot better in pvp but it frightens me to think that 90% of the TRs have now rolled perma-stealth as a "solution" to fighting GWFs and GFs when its not needed, maybe some people don't have the capabilities but if you learn to adapt to fighting Iron vanguard GWFs and GFs without excessive over-use of stealth you will come out on top everytime. I use stealth to deliver finishing blows or to briefly escape danger. Not to avoid confrontation for 10-20 mins straight.
If you use Tactics you should have your daily up quite frequently, even in pvp, 2 stacks of DF on a GWF + Shoxection and hes down. My word.
With the right skill rotation GWFs and GFs are cake.
I cant really say the same for whisperknife because of lack of ITC.
Tod, I tried to send you a message (question) but it seems like it never shows as "sent". Here it is just in case
Tod,
Seems a lot of rogues are utilizing PoTB in pvp but it seems to be very effective if their are 2 TRs and they are in groups. 1 using potb and the other using smoke (stealthed) at the same time.
My question is this, if you are normally a perma-TR, if you have PoTB and want to use it effectively, do you use it while stealthed for faster pulse or do you use it unstealthed knowing its going to do a longer damage pulse on the node? Also do you use ITC while pulsing or engage shadow? (i am asking from a PUG perspective)
Thanks so much for your time!
StevenX
Hey, StevenX.
If I were to use PotB in a high Stealth setup, I'd use it outside of Stealth for the slower ticks. As compared to the Stealthed version where it only lasts 5 seconds, 10 seconds of inescapable damage can be quite stressful to the thoughts, specially since you can't see who and where he is hitting you. PotB has such an effect in PVP nowadays. This may reinforce the thoughts in your opponent's head that he should stay out of the node and wait for it to go into cooldown.
Compared to the Stealth-ed version that only lasts 5 seconds, 10 seconds of slow pulses is also harder to kite specially when your opponent is a TR. The only time I'd use a Stealth PotB would be if someone can be bursted down fast enough using the faster ticks.
Though I don't use PotB in PVP much, yet. Currently doing my best to refuse playing the same way as most others. But one of these days I guess might just break and use it.
Its just my opinion but I think its cheap and everybodies doing it because they are scared to fight normally in PVP, whats more is its not fun. When you can fight toe-to-toe with an Iron vanguard GWF without over-use of stealth and still spank them, then you will relise that you are sacrificing too much damage and time by hiding the whole match.
What I hate most of all is perma-stealth rogues who run away after you spank them! Not only are you hiding but running away too, you tell me that isn't cowardly (especially when they attack you first)... clueless, skill-less players that choose to play like this because they think its the only way to win in pvp lol.
Its funny because 2 days ago I was defending #1 by myself had this perma-stealth rogue come after me trying to cap everytime... and everytime I killed him, so his teammate came to help him out, at this point its 2v1 (both perma-stealth rogues vs me dps rogue) Killed 1, the other one ran away this cycle repeated a few times until a third came who was a GWF (dunno what build) Killed the gwf and 1 rogue, the other rogue ran away.
The difference between perma-stealth and dps at the end of the match was about 15-1 (me) and 5-12 (them) K/D Ratio.
This isn't just 1 match either, I see statistics like this between me and perma-stealth rogues in almost every game im in one with.
Im sure someone will say ohh they just sucked or don't know how to play or whatever... Fair enough, maybe they did, maybe they didn't but I still havnt met a perma-stealth rogue that I could call very good or one who I couldn't beat in a 1v1 situation for that matter. Don't get me wrong, there are some decent ones I have come across but none who I could say were outstanding, the end score and K/D Ratio on scoreboard speaks for itself to be honest.
I don't play a perma. Not because of any ridiculous ideas about 'cowardice' but because I just don't like the playstyle. And I majorly suck at it as a result. I have a Combat build based around deflect/defence and ITC. It's a work in progress as I need better gear, enchants, and boons to make it work right but at least I have fun playing it. That doesn't mean I despise alternative builds though.
A really decently geared perma with a perfect bilethorn doesn't run away from 1v1 fights. It'll generally win them.
If they went 1v1 who do you think would most likely come out on top? Given that both players are highly skilled and highly geared.
Combat TR = P.vorp/high hp/deflect/burst dmg/not reliant on stealth
Perma TR = P.Bile/high hp/recovery/DOT/heavily reliant on stealth
(of course this is a generalisation, each person stacks different things)
Note: I run a Combat TR and have dabbled on the Perma Bile which was fun for a little while but switched back. Pre patch my Combat TR had no problems against Perma TRs but now its really hard to take them down 1v1.
Also, what build do you guys run? and what strategies do you use to go against either one?
Seems like Perma TRs are where its at right now and well i can switch back but really I'd rather not lol.
P-Bile is disgustingly effective against TR's. Especially TR's like yourself, who have limited use of Stealth by your chosen build.
Lets clarify though.
Everyone seems to enjoy calling All TR's Perma..who are in Stealth often.
There IS a difference. A highly geared Hybrid of mixed paths, can have significant Length in Stealth, adding in high recovery, can be very substantial depending on how well played the TR is.
A TRUE Perma TR, is built from the ground up with high INT stat roll, High Recovery stats, near full Sabo feats, with use of GLoaming Cut.
A true Perma never did much damage, and they still don't. But with the current craptastic new pvp system they have, Permas are stronger in terms of survivability then they were before, because they take much, much less damage when they finally do get hit, and generally if you are lucky enough to spot an actual Perma TR, they are more than likely in stealthed/itc so you wont do jack to them anyway. Also made stronger is the use of Shocking because it goes through everything, as well as Tenacity.
In the past it was easy to contest a point against even the most skilled of true Perma's. Because of the lack of damage, and being built properly, regen always over came much of the damage, so generally 1 point ended up in 100% contention. (which was fine then).
Now however, regen is terrible, and a Perma TR with a bile can very easily whittle anyone down to below half in a short amount of time, and kill them with Shocking.
Now to your question.
A combat spec'd highly geared(high recovery with P-Bile) highly skilled TR VS the same but a true Perma. I would say the fight will be a stalemate. Both players will be in Stealth the majority of the fight, and when they aren't, they will both be in stealthed/itc. This fight would make me want to take a nap at how boring it would be to watch......
Now..take either of those built characters, against ANY TR with no bonus's to stealth duration or any recovery. They will get wasted 9-10 times by the above in my opinion.
This is on a pure 1 vs 1 situation of course.
Bottom line.
For a TR to be effective in any form of PvP. They need to have stealth. Stealth for the obvious(they are hidden), and the bonus's we get from abilities by being in stealth, as well as 100% combat advantage while in stealth.
I made this mistake when I was new with my TR. I loved my Dazing/Lashing/Impact Combo, it would nearly kill anyone in a full rotation, most people didn't make it passed the first impact shot.
Obviously all of that has changed. But I learned very quickly that for a TR to be at the top, and play with the big boys so to speak. Big numbers and big crits didn't matter, when you were most surely going to die by the guy you just killed's teammate.
Of course you play what you want and whats fun, it IS unfortunate that there aren't a fiew different builds that are viable in high end premades. But really there isn't. Stealth duration and high recovery is all that matters.
P-Bile is disgustingly effective against TR's. Especially TR's like yourself, who have limited use of Stealth by your chosen build.
Lets clarify though.
Everyone seems to enjoy calling All TR's Perma..who are in Stealth often.
There IS a difference. A highly geared Hybrid of mixed paths, can have significant Length in Stealth, adding in high recovery, can be very substantial depending on how well played the TR is.
"A TRUE Perma TR, is built from the ground up with high INT stat roll, High Recovery stats, near full Sabo feats, with use of GLoaming Cut."
"A true Perma never did much damage, and they still don't. "
In the past it was easy to contest a point against even the most skilled of true Perma's. Because of the lack of damage, and being built properly, regen always over came much of the damage, so generally 1 point ended up in 100% contention. (which was fine then).
"For a TR to be effective in any form of PvP. They need to have stealth. Stealth for the obvious(they are hidden), and the bonus's we get from abilities by being in stealth, as well as 100% combat advantage while in stealth. "
It is really sad when people start yelling on zone chat: "perma ****" "fail perma" "perma cheater" when many of us including myself are not even perma anymore. I had this guy yesterday calling me all sorts of names, and saying devs will fix this, perma was never supposed to exist" i'm like: wtf kid I am not a perma stealth rogue.
I do have a full perma saboteur with cons and int, all defensive gear for back capping and harassment, but he doesn't kill anything other than cw's and sometimes a hr lol, can't 1x1 ****, and people never mention his "permaness" When i pop ItC and start DF people to their graves though I suddenly become a perma **** trololololol it goes beyond ridiculous the things people cry about regarding rogues nowadays.
It's ok to be a steamrolling sentinel its ok to have a dc that heals himself over and over and doesn't die, its ok to have hr fox shift deal way more dmg than lashing blade from stealth, thats is all good..
It is really sad when people start yelling on zone chat: "perma ****" "fail perma" "perma cheater" when many of us including myself are not even perma anymore. I had this guy yesterday calling me all sorts of names, and saying devs will fix this, perma was never supposed to exist" i'm like: wtf kid I am not a perma stealth rogue.
I do have a full perma saboteur with cons and int, all defensive gear for back capping and harassment, but he doesn't kill anything other than cw's and sometimes a hr lol, can't 1x1 ****, and people never mention his "permaness" When i pop ItC and start DF people to their graves though I suddenly become a perma **** trololololol it goes beyond ridiculous the things people cry about regarding rogues nowadays.
It's ok to be a steamrolling sentinel its ok to have a dc that heals himself over and over and doesn't die, its ok to have hr fox shift deal way more dmg than lashing blade from stealth, thats is all good..
Its just a testament really to how much the PvP community as a majority....really doesn't have a clue about PvP, or what the other class's abilities or builds truly are.
Its just ignorance man.
People get mad when they lose, so they find something...anything....,other than themselves to blame to make themselves somehow feel better.
I usually don't respond, but when I do. I respond with the most child like statement I can think of at that moment. Usually involving the word poopee, and diapers.... :cool:
Geared bilethorn TRs should stomp vorpal TRs. If they don't, they have some problems. Simple as that.
Dang, I think you should tell the rogues in your guild that.
running around and never capping lool
which top tr did u kill 1v1
i know that build.......u just leave
when real tr comes on cap
so before calling out any tr u should proly beat one 1v1 with
full hp ,not coming to only daily him
It's also sad that people think this is such a huge advantage.
GF's can spam a skill that will show that they are on you, whether you are in stealth or not. It is Knight Challenge or something.
and
GWF's can spam swing with long distance that covers the width of the node and hit you, do a Daily that is similar to POB, etc.
Both can prone you and do a lot of damage before you get up.
Combine 2 of these characters who work well as teammates and they can put down a TR in an instant.
I am just tired of the whining.
Every class has their strengths and weaknesses and it's how you play the class that makes it what it is.
I wish people would put more effort in becoming a better player, vs trying to get the devs to gimp people who out played them.
It's also sad that people think this is such a huge advantage.
GF's can spam a skill that will show that they are on you, whether you are in stealth or not. It is Knight Challenge or something.
and
GWF's can spam swing with long distance that covers the width of the node and hit you, do a Daily that is similar to POB, etc.
Both can prone you and do a lot of damage before you get up.
Combine 2 of these characters who work well as teammates and they can put down a TR in an instant.
I am just tired of the whining.
Every class has their strengths and weaknesses and it's how you play the class that makes it what it is.
I wish people would put more effort in becoming a better player, vs trying to get the devs to gimp people who out played them.
While I agree with "some" of what you said.
What does any of it have to do with the OP? ----> Combat TR VS Perma TR" <
I'm finding that the only Perma/Bile TRs that give me problems are the very top-end.
If you use Gloaming Cut/CoS/PoTB, it really gives them fits if they don't have tenacity. I'll have my full profound armor on 3/23 or 3/24 if life doesn't get in the way. Even if they do kill me one on one, they have already wasted so much time on me that they have negated their own efforts for the team.
Perma/Bile can only melt you down if they can land DF on you. Like I've said before, they are lucky to land one on me each match. That's usually when I am trying to delay the taking of a node against 3 or more opponents. They are the extreme example of the TR. Staying in stealth nearly the whole time. They are the ultimate opportunist rogue in this game. They eat unsuspecting victims alive.
Their Smoke/Dazing/DF combo is so unreliable if you just keep moving and you have decent recovery.
What about a Perma/Bile that uses Gloaming Cut/CoS/PoTB
I'm finding that the only Perma/Bile TRs that give me problems are the very top-end.
If you use Gloaming Cut/CoS/PoTB, it really gives them fits if they don't have tenacity. I'll have my full profound armor on 3/23 or 3/24 if life doesn't get in the way. Even if they do kill me one on one, they have already wasted so much time on me that they have negated their own efforts for the team.
Perma/Bile can only melt you down if they can land DF on you. Like I've said before, they are lucky to land one on me each match. That's usually when I am trying to delay the taking of a node against 3 or more opponents. They are the extreme example of the TR. Staying in stealth nearly the whole time. They are the ultimate opportunist rogue in this game. They eat unsuspecting victims alive.
Their Smoke/Dazing/DF combo is so unreliable if you just keep moving and you have decent recovery.
I'm only going to reply to the last sentence of this...
Any Semi-stealth/Bilethorn TR who is running both Smoke and Dazing is doing it wrong. REALLY wrong. Any good one will be running ITC, SS, and a third skill which is optional, but with a few limits. Smoke bomb really isn't something you'd want to use versus another TR, for example, due to the probability of that TR using ITC. PotB or B&S, or even Lashing would be better, but the lesser of the three.
at least the few who damage permstealth of an opportunity to react if dying is by inexperience,combate rogues invisible and stab wounds in the back + 3x imobilize shot giving no chance, for me that is the definition of coward
So using the game mechanics to play your character to the best of it's ability is being a coward?
Everyone should just stay at level one and never use armor then
So using the game mechanics to play your character to the best of it's ability is being a coward?
Everyone should just stay at level one and never use armor then
You cant compare armour and stealth just stop it.
I use stealth too dude but to ensure finishing blows or to escape danger temporarily, I don't use It excessively because I think its the only way to win
Its just cheap and annoying, constantly hiding in stealth throwing daggers that don't do any damage at all -> Bait n Switch in stealth -> Come out of stealth -> Ohhh Shadow strike -> back into stealth -> Cycle is repeated... -.- Give it a rest mate.
Only time perma-stealth ever wins against me is when hes annoyed me to death
End score perma-stealth rogue always at the bottom of the scoreboard. Lame.
If most you perma-stealth TR took the time to learn your class properly and get good in pvp without using cheap exploits you would have 10x more fun in pvp fighting toe-to-toe with GWFs and GFs, the two things you always complain about.
Till this day my best game in pvp was 38-1 pre patch / 29-5 post patch
You cant compare armour and stealth just stop it.
I use stealth too dude but to ensure finishing blows or to escape danger temporarily, I don't use It excessively because I think its the only way to win
Its just cheap and annoying, constantly hiding in stealth throwing daggers that don't do any damage at all -> Bait n Switch in stealth -> Come out of stealth -> Ohhh Shadow strike -> back into stealth -> Cycle is repeated... -.- Give it a rest mate.
Only time perma-stealth ever wins against me is when hes annoyed me to death
End score perma-stealth rogue always at the bottom of the scoreboard. Lame.
If most you perma-stealth TR took the time to learn your class properly and get good in pvp without using cheap exploits you would have 10x more fun in pvp fighting toe-to-toe with GWFs and GFs, the two things you always complain about.
Till this day my best game in pvp was 38-1 pre patch / 29-5 post patch
I am just going to point out once more that very few people actually run a full permastealth build. To be a TRUE permastealth, one must run Bait and Switch, which very few high-end players actually do. The default right now is ITC, SS, PotB, which is technically a semistealth, not a permastealth. I only make this clarification due to the mass-amount of misinformation going about the forums.
However, with the current gearsets/builds, semistealth actually deals pretty good damage. And if you're ever able to fight toe-to-toe with a GWF, with a semistealth, permastealth, or non-stealthing TR, then you're honestly not fighting a good one. Or even a decent one. A good GWF will wreck any TR who tries to fight him that way, as he should. GFs... who ever complained about GFs? XD
You cant compare armour and stealth just stop it.
I use stealth too dude but to ensure finishing blows or to escape danger temporarily, I don't use It excessively because I think its the only way to win
Its just cheap and annoying, constantly hiding in stealth throwing daggers that don't do any damage at all -> Bait n Switch in stealth -> Come out of stealth -> Ohhh Shadow strike -> back into stealth -> Cycle is repeated... -.- Give it a rest mate.
Only time perma-stealth ever wins against me is when hes annoyed me to death
End score perma-stealth rogue always at the bottom of the scoreboard. Lame.
If most you perma-stealth TR took the time to learn your class properly and get good in pvp without using cheap exploits you would have 10x more fun in pvp fighting toe-to-toe with GWFs and GFs, the two things you always complain about.
Till this day my best game in pvp was 38-1 pre patch / 29-5 post patch
Calling someone a coward for playing their class the way they want to is what needs to be given a rest.
When someone pays for my computer, internet, games and time, they can tell me how to play.
I am never at the bottom of the scoreboard. I have posted scores and videos and have played with a decent amount of people on this forum who can attest to my comments.
Also, like Kenakth pointed out, it's rare that anyone is perma stealth. We leverage stealth as it is a tool in our tool box.
I am just going to point out once more that very few people actually run a full permastealth build. To be a TRUE permastealth, one must run Bait and Switch, which very few high-end players actually do. The default right now is ITC, SS, PotB, which is technically a semistealth, not a permastealth. I only make this clarification due to the mass-amount of misinformation going about the forums.
However, with the current gearsets/builds, semistealth actually deals pretty good damage. And if you're ever able to fight toe-to-toe with a GWF, with a semistealth, permastealth, or non-stealthing TR, then you're honestly not fighting a good one. Or even a decent one. A good GWF will wreck any TR who tries to fight him that way, as he should. GFs... who ever complained about GFs? XD
Actually I see tons of ppl complaining here that they cant fight GFs and GWFs cos of all the cc etc.
And no, I have come up against very good GFs and GWFs, its really not hard to anticipate what your enemy is going to do once you figure out they're attack pattern/skill rotation.
You assume that no TR is good enough to fight a GWF in the way that I do, and if they are that means the gwf must suck? No not really, it just means that the TR is better. I don't know why so many ppl think that constant stealth is the only way to win lol, I really havnt had any problems in pvp at all the way I fight especially in 1v1 situations that doesn't mean everyone that I fight is bad.
I don't really agree with the whole stealth = only defense. You can easily get deflect up to close to 50% and with deflect severity at 75% that's a really nice defense. Now with tenacity you can build a tr that can survive outside of stealth, that still has nasty spike damage from feats and vorpal. You may not be able to alpha strike down a perma in one encounter rotation but you can on plenty of other targets.
Potb and fey thistle though is a really nice combo to combat perma's, like other's have stated. It usually makes them come to you instead of the other way around.
the problem with that is that it's only viable for high geared players, what about the rest?
many of us will never get greater/perfect vorpals, r8-9s. Stealth works as a defense for every TR.
Actually I see tons of ppl complaining here that they cant fight GFs and GWFs cos of all the cc etc.
And no, I have come up against very good GFs and GWFs, its really not hard to anticipate what your enemy is going to do once you figure out they're attack pattern/skill rotation.
You assume that no TR is good enough to fight a GWF in the way that I do, and if they are that means the gwf must suck? No not really, it just means that the TR is better. I don't know why so many ppl think that constant stealth is the only way to win lol, I really havnt had any problems in pvp at all the way I fight especially in 1v1 situations that doesn't mean everyone that I fight is bad.
Well, first of all I never stated that everyone you fight is bad. Just to get that out of the way.
However, a good GWF (which I consider to be one who doesn't blow their Frontline at the first chance they get on your ITC or a dodge or a DF, takes the time to avoid DF, etc. An example would be a GWF from Chocolate Shoppe or Enemy Team) will always beat a TR in a toe-to-toe fight, hands down. Their class is simply better equipped for it. The combat TR has its place in games, but 1v1ing a top-end GWF... it's really not likely. I, too, can dodge just about all of their abilities even as a stealth TR, but if they catch me once it's going to hurt.
That's not to say you can't beat some GWFs that way, but I tend to fight other high end PvP guilds and there's a reason none of the top-end TRs run a combat spec... it just isn't viable to 1v1 a good GWF with, as TRs in premade vs premade games often end up doing. It is, however, quite good at playing a roaming DPS setup, where you support other nodes while someone else holds them.
Comments
In many matches (even now) teams are so unbalanced you have 3 players at 9k fighting a whole team of players at 14k+. They have no option but to try and run and regen. Whats sad is that a lot of great players have pulled together some really nice builds for all different classes and when they don't seem to "act" as another player 'perceives' that they should its "not playing fair" or "cowardly".
I am not great at PVP but i know without a doubt the best players will analyze the situation, adapt and overcome. Perma-Stealth is one of the solutions that was created to "overcome" the lack of dmg resist from the TR class. Its not the only solution, but one of them. (edit) Let's try this again, Perma-stealth seems to be one of the better builds to allow a TR to cap and hold points. (edit)
See you on the battle field. I will probably be whining about something in PVP zone chat.
Cheers!
Tod,
Seems a lot of rogues are utilizing PoTB in pvp but it seems to be very effective if their are 2 TRs and they are in groups. 1 using potb and the other using smoke (stealthed) at the same time.
My question is this, if you are normally a perma-TR, if you have PoTB and want to use it effectively, do you use it while stealthed for faster pulse or do you use it unstealthed knowing its going to do a longer damage pulse on the node? Also do you use ITC while pulsing or engage shadow? (i am asking from a PUG perspective)
Thanks so much for your time!
StevenX
I would use PoB without stealth for prolonged use, and ItC under stealth for immortality. It changes according to what encounters you have slotted
Keep in mind though that you can activate ITC at any point in a move. By timing it properly, you can activate ITC and PoTB both from stealth at the same time to use the "stealth" version of the moves. This also works with shadow strike so that you could put a daze on someone as well as get dodge immunity. This is limited in its usefulness for 1v1 (but is still fantastic in some situations), but in 2v1 or 2v2, ect. you could put a daze on an opponent that is going for your ally and then try to hold any other enemies while you have immunity. That being said, the only time I'd use PoTB from stealth is if the target already has low hp. Otherwise just leave it normal so that you can get shadow strike off faster in relation to ITC to help maintain the stealth rotation and keep PoTB up longer in case you are fighting a rogue or an enemy rogue comes.
I tend to always combo ITC + SS stealth versions whenever I am using my stealth rotation for the daze and dodge immunity even if its just 1v1 though.
I truly appreciate all the advice on the forums. You guys really do help
I would go P.Bile, it eats up GF shield and GWF through unstoppable like nothing. I've been using it in pvp for the last few days and am loving it.
I don't think im that great either, I could be a lot better in pvp but it frightens me to think that 90% of the TRs have now rolled perma-stealth as a "solution" to fighting GWFs and GFs when its not needed, maybe some people don't have the capabilities but if you learn to adapt to fighting Iron vanguard GWFs and GFs without excessive over-use of stealth you will come out on top everytime. I use stealth to deliver finishing blows or to briefly escape danger. Not to avoid confrontation for 10-20 mins straight.
If you use Tactics you should have your daily up quite frequently, even in pvp, 2 stacks of DF on a GWF + Shoxection and hes down. My word.
With the right skill rotation GWFs and GFs are cake.
I cant really say the same for whisperknife because of lack of ITC.
Hey, StevenX.
If I were to use PotB in a high Stealth setup, I'd use it outside of Stealth for the slower ticks. As compared to the Stealthed version where it only lasts 5 seconds, 10 seconds of inescapable damage can be quite stressful to the thoughts, specially since you can't see who and where he is hitting you. PotB has such an effect in PVP nowadays. This may reinforce the thoughts in your opponent's head that he should stay out of the node and wait for it to go into cooldown.
Compared to the Stealth-ed version that only lasts 5 seconds, 10 seconds of slow pulses is also harder to kite specially when your opponent is a TR. The only time I'd use a Stealth PotB would be if someone can be bursted down fast enough using the faster ticks.
Though I don't use PotB in PVP much, yet. Currently doing my best to refuse playing the same way as most others. But one of these days I guess might just break and use it.
A really decently geared perma with a perfect bilethorn doesn't run away from 1v1 fights. It'll generally win them.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
P-Bile is disgustingly effective against TR's. Especially TR's like yourself, who have limited use of Stealth by your chosen build.
Lets clarify though.
Everyone seems to enjoy calling All TR's Perma..who are in Stealth often.
There IS a difference. A highly geared Hybrid of mixed paths, can have significant Length in Stealth, adding in high recovery, can be very substantial depending on how well played the TR is.
A TRUE Perma TR, is built from the ground up with high INT stat roll, High Recovery stats, near full Sabo feats, with use of GLoaming Cut.
A true Perma never did much damage, and they still don't. But with the current craptastic new pvp system they have, Permas are stronger in terms of survivability then they were before, because they take much, much less damage when they finally do get hit, and generally if you are lucky enough to spot an actual Perma TR, they are more than likely in stealthed/itc so you wont do jack to them anyway. Also made stronger is the use of Shocking because it goes through everything, as well as Tenacity.
In the past it was easy to contest a point against even the most skilled of true Perma's. Because of the lack of damage, and being built properly, regen always over came much of the damage, so generally 1 point ended up in 100% contention. (which was fine then).
Now however, regen is terrible, and a Perma TR with a bile can very easily whittle anyone down to below half in a short amount of time, and kill them with Shocking.
Now to your question.
A combat spec'd highly geared(high recovery with P-Bile) highly skilled TR VS the same but a true Perma. I would say the fight will be a stalemate. Both players will be in Stealth the majority of the fight, and when they aren't, they will both be in stealthed/itc. This fight would make me want to take a nap at how boring it would be to watch......
Now..take either of those built characters, against ANY TR with no bonus's to stealth duration or any recovery. They will get wasted 9-10 times by the above in my opinion.
This is on a pure 1 vs 1 situation of course.
Bottom line.
For a TR to be effective in any form of PvP. They need to have stealth. Stealth for the obvious(they are hidden), and the bonus's we get from abilities by being in stealth, as well as 100% combat advantage while in stealth.
I made this mistake when I was new with my TR. I loved my Dazing/Lashing/Impact Combo, it would nearly kill anyone in a full rotation, most people didn't make it passed the first impact shot.
Obviously all of that has changed. But I learned very quickly that for a TR to be at the top, and play with the big boys so to speak. Big numbers and big crits didn't matter, when you were most surely going to die by the guy you just killed's teammate.
Stealth > Survivability > Damage. Nothing else matters.
Of course you play what you want and whats fun, it IS unfortunate that there aren't a fiew different builds that are viable in high end premades. But really there isn't. Stealth duration and high recovery is all that matters.
Just my 2 cents
It is really sad when people start yelling on zone chat: "perma ****" "fail perma" "perma cheater" when many of us including myself are not even perma anymore. I had this guy yesterday calling me all sorts of names, and saying devs will fix this, perma was never supposed to exist" i'm like: wtf kid I am not a perma stealth rogue.
I do have a full perma saboteur with cons and int, all defensive gear for back capping and harassment, but he doesn't kill anything other than cw's and sometimes a hr lol, can't 1x1 ****, and people never mention his "permaness" When i pop ItC and start DF people to their graves though I suddenly become a perma **** trololololol it goes beyond ridiculous the things people cry about regarding rogues nowadays.
It's ok to be a steamrolling sentinel its ok to have a dc that heals himself over and over and doesn't die, its ok to have hr fox shift deal way more dmg than lashing blade from stealth, thats is all good..
Its just a testament really to how much the PvP community as a majority....really doesn't have a clue about PvP, or what the other class's abilities or builds truly are.
Its just ignorance man.
People get mad when they lose, so they find something...anything....,other than themselves to blame to make themselves somehow feel better.
I usually don't respond, but when I do. I respond with the most child like statement I can think of at that moment. Usually involving the word poopee, and diapers.... :cool:
Dang, I think you should tell the rogues in your guild that.
which top tr did u kill 1v1
i know that build.......u just leave
when real tr comes on cap
so before calling out any tr u should proly beat one 1v1 with
full hp ,not coming to only daily him
GF's can spam a skill that will show that they are on you, whether you are in stealth or not. It is Knight Challenge or something.
and
GWF's can spam swing with long distance that covers the width of the node and hit you, do a Daily that is similar to POB, etc.
Both can prone you and do a lot of damage before you get up.
Combine 2 of these characters who work well as teammates and they can put down a TR in an instant.
I am just tired of the whining.
Every class has their strengths and weaknesses and it's how you play the class that makes it what it is.
I wish people would put more effort in becoming a better player, vs trying to get the devs to gimp people who out played them.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
+1 Couldn't of said that better myself
While I agree with "some" of what you said.
What does any of it have to do with the OP? ----> Combat TR VS Perma TR" <
My comments are on topic in relation to other posts made in the thread and are directly related to the Perma TR part of this thread.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
What about a Perma/Bile that uses Gloaming Cut/CoS/PoTB
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
I'm only going to reply to the last sentence of this...
Any Semi-stealth/Bilethorn TR who is running both Smoke and Dazing is doing it wrong. REALLY wrong. Any good one will be running ITC, SS, and a third skill which is optional, but with a few limits. Smoke bomb really isn't something you'd want to use versus another TR, for example, due to the probability of that TR using ITC. PotB or B&S, or even Lashing would be better, but the lesser of the three.
Everyone should just stay at level one and never use armor then
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
You cant compare armour and stealth just stop it.
I use stealth too dude but to ensure finishing blows or to escape danger temporarily, I don't use It excessively because I think its the only way to win
Its just cheap and annoying, constantly hiding in stealth throwing daggers that don't do any damage at all -> Bait n Switch in stealth -> Come out of stealth -> Ohhh Shadow strike -> back into stealth -> Cycle is repeated... -.- Give it a rest mate.
Only time perma-stealth ever wins against me is when hes annoyed me to death
End score perma-stealth rogue always at the bottom of the scoreboard. Lame.
If most you perma-stealth TR took the time to learn your class properly and get good in pvp without using cheap exploits you would have 10x more fun in pvp fighting toe-to-toe with GWFs and GFs, the two things you always complain about.
Till this day my best game in pvp was 38-1 pre patch / 29-5 post patch
I am just going to point out once more that very few people actually run a full permastealth build. To be a TRUE permastealth, one must run Bait and Switch, which very few high-end players actually do. The default right now is ITC, SS, PotB, which is technically a semistealth, not a permastealth. I only make this clarification due to the mass-amount of misinformation going about the forums.
However, with the current gearsets/builds, semistealth actually deals pretty good damage. And if you're ever able to fight toe-to-toe with a GWF, with a semistealth, permastealth, or non-stealthing TR, then you're honestly not fighting a good one. Or even a decent one. A good GWF will wreck any TR who tries to fight him that way, as he should. GFs... who ever complained about GFs? XD
Calling someone a coward for playing their class the way they want to is what needs to be given a rest.
When someone pays for my computer, internet, games and time, they can tell me how to play.
I am never at the bottom of the scoreboard. I have posted scores and videos and have played with a decent amount of people on this forum who can attest to my comments.
Also, like Kenakth pointed out, it's rare that anyone is perma stealth. We leverage stealth as it is a tool in our tool box.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
Actually I see tons of ppl complaining here that they cant fight GFs and GWFs cos of all the cc etc.
And no, I have come up against very good GFs and GWFs, its really not hard to anticipate what your enemy is going to do once you figure out they're attack pattern/skill rotation.
You assume that no TR is good enough to fight a GWF in the way that I do, and if they are that means the gwf must suck? No not really, it just means that the TR is better. I don't know why so many ppl think that constant stealth is the only way to win lol, I really havnt had any problems in pvp at all the way I fight especially in 1v1 situations that doesn't mean everyone that I fight is bad.
Potb and fey thistle though is a really nice combo to combat perma's, like other's have stated. It usually makes them come to you instead of the other way around.
many of us will never get greater/perfect vorpals, r8-9s. Stealth works as a defense for every TR.
Well, first of all I never stated that everyone you fight is bad. Just to get that out of the way.
However, a good GWF (which I consider to be one who doesn't blow their Frontline at the first chance they get on your ITC or a dodge or a DF, takes the time to avoid DF, etc. An example would be a GWF from Chocolate Shoppe or Enemy Team) will always beat a TR in a toe-to-toe fight, hands down. Their class is simply better equipped for it. The combat TR has its place in games, but 1v1ing a top-end GWF... it's really not likely. I, too, can dodge just about all of their abilities even as a stealth TR, but if they catch me once it's going to hurt.
That's not to say you can't beat some GWFs that way, but I tend to fight other high end PvP guilds and there's a reason none of the top-end TRs run a combat spec... it just isn't viable to 1v1 a good GWF with, as TRs in premade vs premade games often end up doing. It is, however, quite good at playing a roaming DPS setup, where you support other nodes while someone else holds them.