Having played both renegade and thaum for months, I am incline to believe that thaum do more damage with a slight restricted spell set.
In party play my renegade can match or even beat some thaum in dps output but I believe this is partially due to the debug thaum is doing.
If you isolate a thaum and renegade, I think thaum will fare better.
Let me know ur thoughts.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Having played both renegade and thaum for months, I am incline to believe that thaum do more damage with a slight restricted spell set.
In party play my renegade can match or even beat some thaum in dps output but I believe this is partially due to the debug thaum is doing.
If you isolate a thaum and renegade, I think thaum will fare better.
Let me know ur thoughts.
Honestly its hard for me to say,
The circumstances depend, I have played both. It depends on how often the Renegade has a combat advantage. Think of the Renegade more like Rogue AoE. And the Thaum more like the GWF AoE. When the Rogue has a combat advantage his damage shoots through the roof and spikes like there's no tomorrow... But without that, his damage goes to just plain normal as all of his crit related feats rely on combat advantage.
Renegade really tends to spike and drop off. Its either through the roof, or average.
You can usually mark this on how often he's got a combat advantage. The Thaum doesn't rely on combat advantage as much, so is not limited by it and can be more consistent even if he's limited to the number of spells he can use. The Renegade if he has a consistent combat advantage will overshoot the Thaum, assuming same gear, but... again... it is all dependent upon that combat advantage... its why your Renegade can beat the other Thaums in the party at times.
So the Renegade will require a lot more skill to play has you'll have to constantly be looking for ways to put your opponents in a combat advantage situation just like any rogue.. Thaum may be limited in spells and what they can put in their slots, but they will be more consistent damage wise. Thaum is a little more straight forward and doesn't have to do that.
Honestly when you combine the two is when they are able to just wreck things togather. One puts things in combat advantage situations, the other capitalizes on them.
As an Example: I run with a Thaum who has over 1000gs over me, has 3 artifacts where I have two, has almost 1000 power, on me. He's running with Vorpal, ,I'm running with Bronzewood. Yet I have at times been able to spike damage past him, and even beat him (on occasion) even though he's a very aggressive player and has a huge advantage on me. That's what the Renegade Crit feats do when you have combat advantage.
As an Example: I run with a Thaum who has over 1000gs over me, has 3 artifacts where I have two, has almost 1000 power, on me. He's running with Vorpal, ,I'm running with Bronzewood. Yet I have at times been able to spike damage past him, and even beat him (on occasion) even though he's a very aggressive player and has a huge advantage on me. That's what the Renegade Crit feats do when you have combat advantage.
I take ur point that it is hard to say which is better. I am trying not to decide which spec is better by looking at dungeon run result. More frequent then not the dps difference is attributed by execution of rotation and timing then the potential of a specs. It is just the damage that my renegade is pulling out keep set me thinking if it is just purely because I am leveraging on thaum debuffs.
I looked at the Thaum feats but couldnt see where all theextra DPS is coming from (I assume from cold stacks)
imo the thaumaturge is much better then the renegade, renegade has only feats to increase damage (combat advantage- about 15% more damage) and 15% more crit severity, the only debuff of renegade is Chaotic Nexus with 11% chances to proc. The thaumaturge has debuffs (-10% defense with arcane spells, -15% mitigation with conduct of ice) up to 25% more damage with frozen power transfer, 15% more damage with the shard and 30% more damage when enemy is below 30% hp, so more damage and with the debuffs more damage for the other team members too, so for me the best is thaumaturge
I take ur point that it is hard to say which is better. I am trying not to decide which spec is better by looking at dungeon run result. More frequent then not the dps difference is attributed by execution of rotation and timing then the potential of a specs. It is just the damage that my renegade is pulling out keep set me thinking if it is just purely because I am leveraging on thaum debuffs.
Partially, Renegade can either be better or worse, and it will vary with each dungeon crawl. One time the Renegade will just far outstrip a theurge as it can be like having a Wizard and a half in party and his damage will more than make up for it, the next time through he might end up being only 3/4ths of a Wizard in a party. Its really erratic and could go either way.
It's just that Thaumaturge debuffs don't stack generally with other Thaumaturge debuffs. So when you have multiple Theurge's you gain nothing, when you have Theurge and Renegade, they do. Or Theurge, Renegade, and MoF togather.
1. crit severity is good but not as good as people seem to believe, +50% for example does not increase your crit damage by that much, but the multiplier. E.G. you start with 100% so
non-crit = 1000
crit = 2000
crit + 50% = 2500.
thats a 25% increase, the same as if you had 25% debuffs/buffs, and also does not apply to normal hits. having 15% mitigation is like having 30% crit severity in this case.
2. what an above poster said is true, split the two apart and a thaum will do more damage, put them together and its just too hard to tell
3. remember assailing force/CoI has a cooldown, it doesn't give you 15% more damage all the time, also that target can die prematurely.
4. Renegade is alot more fast paced, easier and flexible. you do not need to "set up" your debuffs, everything is built into your at-will and spells so its alot more punchie. And you don't have to use CoI.
5. Most importantly damage is determined by the player, if the player understand spell combos, when and when not to use it (you dont just use the same rotation in every fight), and what spells to equip during different class setups.
1. Crit severity is good but not as good as people seem to believe, +50% for example does not increase your crit damage by that much, but the multiplier. E.g. You start with 100% so
non-crit = 1000
crit = 2000
crit + 50% = 2500.
Thats a 25% increase, the same as if you had 25% debuffs/buffs, and also does not apply to normal hits. Having 15% mitigation is like having 30% crit severity in this case.
2. What an above poster said is true, split the two apart and a thaum will do more damage, put them together and its just too hard to tell
3. Remember assailing force/coi has a cooldown, it doesn't give you 15% more damage all the time, also that target can die prematurely.
4. Renegade is alot more fast paced, easier and flexible. You do not need to "set up" your debuffs, everything is built into your at-will and spells so its alot more punchie. And you don't have to use coi.
5. Most importantly damage is determined by the player, if the player understand spell combos, when and when not to use it (you dont just use the same rotation in every fight), and what spells to equip during different class setups.
Time to slink back into the shadows.
grimah! Where the hell have you been? About fell in the floor when i saw you were posting...lol
0
silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
4. Renegade is alot more fast paced, easier and flexible. you do not need to "set up" your debuffs, everything is built into your at-will and spells so its alot more punchie. And you don't have to use CoI.
5. Most importantly damage is determined by the player, if the player understand spell combos, when and when not to use it (you dont just use the same rotation in every fight), and what spells to equip during different class setups.
time to slink back into the shadows.
Punchie, that would be a good description.
I have to say Renegade is unpredictable, yet the damage spikes its capable of are really extreme. I believe it can outdamage the Thaum even outside a party. But its so unpredictable you never know what that will come. Its a true Chaos Mage in every sense of the word.
Example:
I went in to a Dungeon once as a Renegade and the only Wizard in group, and everything fell my way, I was always able to place the enemies at a combat advantage and critted a ton, and this was in a party with all similar gear scores. I actually doubled the damage of the next highest player. And quite literally more than doubled it. In fact, may have actually done more damage than the rest of the party combined. Yet when we went in again and I got outdamaged by the Ranger in similar gear score where I did not achieve combat advantage (flanked, stunned, helpless, proned targets) nearly as much, nor did I crit as much.
I have gone into Dungeons where I started late, or was being outdamaged, and then in just ONE battle, suddenly was top damage again all due to everything falling into combat advantage shoes.
You're right, they are much more versatile as well and very adaptable to any given situation, and have the potential for explosive spike damage... but... its also very inconsistent and relies on certain factors to take advantage of. Admittedly this is also the Thaum trait with regards to their debuff spells they have to have equipped and on the target first... but it is even more exaggerated in the Renegade path where the Risk vs Reward is even more extreme and high damage vs average damage is even more pronounced. This is a true Chaos Wizard where anything could happen.
1. crit severity is good but not as good as people seem to believe, +50% for example does not increase your crit damage by that much, but the multiplier. E.G. you start with 100% so
non-crit = 1000
crit = 2000
crit + 50% = 2500.
thats a 25% increase, the same as if you had 25% debuffs/buffs, and also does not apply to normal hits. having 15% mitigation is like having 30% crit severity in this case.
500 more damage of 1000 base damage is not 25% increase its 50% increase, i dont think anyone believes that 50% crit severity increase your critical hits by 50%, critical severity increases base damage not critical hits damage and i think everybody knows that.
Thats the definition of critical severity on neverwinter gamepedia "A character's Critical Severity determines the amount of bonus damage or healing done on a critical hit"
Comments
That's only a 12k gs there, and reachable by anyone.
In party play my renegade can match or even beat some thaum in dps output but I believe this is partially due to the debug thaum is doing.
If you isolate a thaum and renegade, I think thaum will fare better.
Let me know ur thoughts.
Honestly its hard for me to say,
The circumstances depend, I have played both. It depends on how often the Renegade has a combat advantage. Think of the Renegade more like Rogue AoE. And the Thaum more like the GWF AoE. When the Rogue has a combat advantage his damage shoots through the roof and spikes like there's no tomorrow... But without that, his damage goes to just plain normal as all of his crit related feats rely on combat advantage.
Renegade really tends to spike and drop off. Its either through the roof, or average.
You can usually mark this on how often he's got a combat advantage. The Thaum doesn't rely on combat advantage as much, so is not limited by it and can be more consistent even if he's limited to the number of spells he can use. The Renegade if he has a consistent combat advantage will overshoot the Thaum, assuming same gear, but... again... it is all dependent upon that combat advantage... its why your Renegade can beat the other Thaums in the party at times.
So the Renegade will require a lot more skill to play has you'll have to constantly be looking for ways to put your opponents in a combat advantage situation just like any rogue.. Thaum may be limited in spells and what they can put in their slots, but they will be more consistent damage wise. Thaum is a little more straight forward and doesn't have to do that.
Honestly when you combine the two is when they are able to just wreck things togather. One puts things in combat advantage situations, the other capitalizes on them.
As an Example: I run with a Thaum who has over 1000gs over me, has 3 artifacts where I have two, has almost 1000 power, on me. He's running with Vorpal, ,I'm running with Bronzewood. Yet I have at times been able to spike damage past him, and even beat him (on occasion) even though he's a very aggressive player and has a huge advantage on me. That's what the Renegade Crit feats do when you have combat advantage.
I take ur point that it is hard to say which is better. I am trying not to decide which spec is better by looking at dungeon run result. More frequent then not the dps difference is attributed by execution of rotation and timing then the potential of a specs. It is just the damage that my renegade is pulling out keep set me thinking if it is just purely because I am leveraging on thaum debuffs.
imo the thaumaturge is much better then the renegade, renegade has only feats to increase damage (combat advantage- about 15% more damage) and 15% more crit severity, the only debuff of renegade is Chaotic Nexus with 11% chances to proc. The thaumaturge has debuffs (-10% defense with arcane spells, -15% mitigation with conduct of ice) up to 25% more damage with frozen power transfer, 15% more damage with the shard and 30% more damage when enemy is below 30% hp, so more damage and with the debuffs more damage for the other team members too, so for me the best is thaumaturge
Partially, Renegade can either be better or worse, and it will vary with each dungeon crawl. One time the Renegade will just far outstrip a theurge as it can be like having a Wizard and a half in party and his damage will more than make up for it, the next time through he might end up being only 3/4ths of a Wizard in a party. Its really erratic and could go either way.
It's just that Thaumaturge debuffs don't stack generally with other Thaumaturge debuffs. So when you have multiple Theurge's you gain nothing, when you have Theurge and Renegade, they do. Or Theurge, Renegade, and MoF togather.
non-crit = 1000
crit = 2000
crit + 50% = 2500.
thats a 25% increase, the same as if you had 25% debuffs/buffs, and also does not apply to normal hits. having 15% mitigation is like having 30% crit severity in this case.
2. what an above poster said is true, split the two apart and a thaum will do more damage, put them together and its just too hard to tell
3. remember assailing force/CoI has a cooldown, it doesn't give you 15% more damage all the time, also that target can die prematurely.
4. Renegade is alot more fast paced, easier and flexible. you do not need to "set up" your debuffs, everything is built into your at-will and spells so its alot more punchie. And you don't have to use CoI.
5. Most importantly damage is determined by the player, if the player understand spell combos, when and when not to use it (you dont just use the same rotation in every fight), and what spells to equip during different class setups.
time to slink back into the shadows.
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grimah! Where the hell have you been? About fell in the floor when i saw you were posting...lol
Punchie, that would be a good description.
I have to say Renegade is unpredictable, yet the damage spikes its capable of are really extreme. I believe it can outdamage the Thaum even outside a party. But its so unpredictable you never know what that will come. Its a true Chaos Mage in every sense of the word.
Example:
I went in to a Dungeon once as a Renegade and the only Wizard in group, and everything fell my way, I was always able to place the enemies at a combat advantage and critted a ton, and this was in a party with all similar gear scores. I actually doubled the damage of the next highest player. And quite literally more than doubled it. In fact, may have actually done more damage than the rest of the party combined. Yet when we went in again and I got outdamaged by the Ranger in similar gear score where I did not achieve combat advantage (flanked, stunned, helpless, proned targets) nearly as much, nor did I crit as much.
I have gone into Dungeons where I started late, or was being outdamaged, and then in just ONE battle, suddenly was top damage again all due to everything falling into combat advantage shoes.
You're right, they are much more versatile as well and very adaptable to any given situation, and have the potential for explosive spike damage... but... its also very inconsistent and relies on certain factors to take advantage of. Admittedly this is also the Thaum trait with regards to their debuff spells they have to have equipped and on the target first... but it is even more exaggerated in the Renegade path where the Risk vs Reward is even more extreme and high damage vs average damage is even more pronounced. This is a true Chaos Wizard where anything could happen.
500 more damage of 1000 base damage is not 25% increase its 50% increase, i dont think anyone believes that 50% crit severity increase your critical hits by 50%, critical severity increases base damage not critical hits damage and i think everybody knows that.
Thats the definition of critical severity on neverwinter gamepedia "A character's Critical Severity determines the amount of bonus damage or healing done on a critical hit"