@overddrive, if your 2xGWF team cannot beat CW+GF... meh. 2 GWFs should kill the CW in like 10 secs at most (if he 's a pro), and destroy the GF afterwards easily.
As things stand now, properly played&built PvP GWFs need stuff like (assuming same gear&skill):
- GF to take them off the node, probably never gonna kill the GWF, just stall them and slowly cap point
- DC to stall them/push off node, never gonna kill GWF just annoy them to death
- GWF to slug it out in a pissing contest of who get more crits and lucky sprints
99% of TRs and CWs don't stand a chance. The guys that do stand a chance are top players in their class, and their chances are still close to 0 against top GWFs.
So basically GWF requires teamwork from at least 2 party members to be killed. Many times, for pro GWFs even 2 guys will have a hard time, cause GWF can wreak a CW before GF+CW can kill the GWF most times.
I personally find this situation a lot of royal BS. GWF should be no special class when they have to be dealt with. If I meet a same gear&experience GWF on my point, I should have 50% chances to solo him on my CW. Yet these days, I need to call for help, rotate somewhere else or stall the GWF for as long as possible, without any realistic chance of a kill, cause:
- GWF deals huge amount of damage on squishies
- GWF sticks to you like glue, no shaking it off
- GWF deflects half your attacks
- GWF has 40%+ DR
- GWF goes immune after each of your encounter crits
And please, don't come with the rock/paper/scissors thing. Slight advantage from class, maybe OK. HUge advantage because of class? No.
And I played geared GWF myself, I know how it feels. The difference from CW vs GWF is HUGE. When I played GWF I was relaxed and just felt like I was enjoying myself in a relaxing game. When you play CW is tension 100%, always on the lookout, always trying to anticipate, always knowing a landed IBS will cost you 12-17K HP and put you on panic mode, especially as they usually come after a takedown/FLS that deals some fearsome damage as well.
If you wanna know how other class feels, do like me, ask a friend to play his char for a day or so. Sure, you will be inexperienced and suck at it, and even this didn't stop me from having a smooth GWF experience, owning squishies like there was no tomorrow.
GWFs do not need nerf. Other classes need to be brought up to par so they have the instruments to deal with GWFs properly.
Did I claim to be a pro or that the other gwfs on my team are all pros? NO I did not. I think we are pretty **** good and are working to both improve our gear and hone our skills, but we are not elite. I have NO PROBLEM admitting that. Basing ANY kind of nerf logic on the absolute best players of a class is explicitly UNREASONABLE. And I think that is what is happening here.
There is a difference between "properly geared and good player" and "BIS leet pvp uber hardcore player". The former does not suck and the latter is the worst possible basis for any kind of nerf. If anything, where gwf is "weak/unbalanced" as a class because it is really easy to optimize into that one single solid build. Unlike TR's who have a plethora of great builds to choose from.
I agree GWFs do not need nerfed as hard as it looks life they are going to be. But I also think the "two gwfs can kill two of any other class" assumption is flat out wrong. All other things being perfectly equal, the gwf is the best class for pvp. But not by miles, by inches. People are shouting for perfect parity and that just is never going to happen. What will happen is GWFs will get nerfed and TR's will again be the best class to play in pvp. Which is one reason I am making a TR.
And look at my sig, I play both my gf and my cw in pvp all the time. GWF's can be countered. Lockdown and burst.
dr132Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 21Arc User
edited February 2014
I'm going to have to disagree with there being no counter to geared sentinels. In a proper match with relatively similar geared players a sentinel GWF can be countered by any class that can throw them off point or force them to leave the point to avoid being killed. a skilled GF can knock a GWF off point repeatedly and put points on the scoreboard or cap the point. a CW can do the same with repel mixed with ranged DPS forcing the GWF to leave the point as can an HR. obviously if the GWF has the point dominated there's no problem for him to leave to kill ranged characters but if he's in the process of capping he's going to be bleeding points when he's forced off point. this is where communication and proper rotation comes into play. yes GWF's may be very difficult for other classes to beat 1v1 but luckily in a 5v5 POINT domination that doesn't count for everything.
We can simply forget about how a certain class or build may or may not take them down in a 1vs1. Sure, I can take 'em down alone if they are one or two notches below the top-end GWFs in terms of either gears, or skill, or both. That's not even the issue here. Let's also just simply close our eyes to the fact that the class is made so easy -- that the margin of error against fighting one is so small, and yet for the GWF so stupidly large, that your one mistake leads to instant death, whereas the guy can make a truck-load of stupid, idiotic, and obvious moves and yet still turn the fight around and kill you within 10 seconds if he gets in one lucky KD.
Those are the least of worries. The problem the class holds in a PvP game-format that concentrates on;
* basically "king-of-the-hill" type of area-domination/suppression
* a system which is heavily influenced by tactical use of CCs
It's simply insurmountable.
It doesn't matter if the GWF is experienced or not so long as the GWF is geared at a comparable level to your own players (and not something like 8~9k against 14~15k). At a comparable level of gear and equipment, when you face a GWF you face a class with the:
* highest HP pool in the game
* among the highest defense/damage reduction in the game
* very high damage capacity
* equipped with 3 CCs which are all Knock-prones and range/AoE
* fastest movement/run speed in the game
* equipped with a God-Mode that can be fired off almost back-to-back
* virtually no real "weakness"
Even if you can take the fight favorably against it, doesn't matter. You're not going to be able to hold any ground, since without a GWF on your own team, the moment a GWF charges in your line is simply pushed back, back, back, back, and back. The tactical burden your team faces is huge, essentially taking at least 2~3 experienced players with good enough gear to keep it under check.
So, against these top-level GWFs, you need your own top level people, and two~three of them. Bring in to the fact that this is a team game, and therefore, let's add in one of those tanclerics behind that GWF. So you now need three people against that one GWF, you put two of yours to harass that DC, who is as much unkillable btw.. so then who is going to keep under check the three enemy players that roam free?
Come on, don't act like you GWF players don't notice this.
Don't play dumb, and don't pretend you don't know just what kind of tactical impact a single powerful GWF has on the team.
Whenever a GWF is in the enemy team, his tactical weight is equivalent to at least two non-GWF players in this team. Unless each and every member of your own team is such skilled and geared well enough to be worth more than two average players, in the long run you're never going to win.
Hence, people start developing other tactics, such as avoiding direct confrontation with the DC-GWF duo, and running back nodes and empty nodes fast enough to still win with points. This can work if there is only ONE GWF in the enemy team.
Then what happens if there is two? Three? If the enemy team has a GWF and a perma-TR?
The only way you can counter this -- Bring GWFs of your own.
When there's an option that is impossible to counter, or impractially difficult to do so without using the very same option of your own -- we call that "OP".
If we want to fix this, its either we limit the "God Mode" in terms of CC immunity, or we make it easier to kill them through focused fire. My personal choice would have been the former, but the developers have chosen the latter.
Like so with any other classes, they must also FEAR dying if they simply charge into enemy lines. Only, and only when they have to think twice before simply pushing forward, that their impact on PvP is reduced to normal levels.
There's nothing that is not deserving, what the developers did about both GWFs and DCs.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The best DCs won't go down to GWFs, it just won't happen.
Sorry, as a active pvp cleric I want to give my opinion. In equal gs bracket (eg 12k vs 12k or 15k vs 15k) GWF always kill a DC, it is just a bit time consuming, a 2 or 3 triple knock-prone chain can effectively kill a DC. Maybe I am unacknowledged, but out of several thousands of cleric who do pvp, please kindly list out 20 non-overgeared DC that can face tank any equal gs GWF. I can stall a 14k gs GWF with my non-sent buffing build (12k gs) with T1 high prophet set just for 5 minutes at max. I wonder is there at least 20 tanky sent speced clerics that can face tank BIS geared GWF?? I don't think so.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Sorry, as a active pvp cleric I want to give my opinion. In equal gs bracket (eg 12k vs 12k or 15k vs 15k) GWF always kill a DC, it is just a bit time consuming, a 2 or 3 triple knock-prone chain can effectively kill a DC. Maybe I am unacknowledged, but out of several thousands of cleric who do pvp, please kindly list out 20 non-overgeared DC that can face tank any equal gs GWF. I can stall a 14k gs GWF with my non-sent buffing build (12k gs) with T1 high prophet set just for 5 minutes at max. I wonder is there at least 20 tanky sent speced clerics that can face tank BIS geared GWF?? I don't think so.
I said "Best DCs". You shouldn't be able to tank a BiS PvP sent if you don't have BiS gear/enchants/spec yourself, pretty logical, yes?
And no they don't facetank the GWF, ideally they will dodge the prone/high damage encounters.
And while I could give you names of DCs that a GWF might never manage to kill, it would be pretty lame to name here people that might not wanna be named. Hint: at least one of them is a pretty active poster in the DC subforum. If you would have taken a look at the streams that a certain BiS GWF put up, you would hear how annoyed was he with this DC.
Putting a good DC on a savage BiS GWF is a sure way to take him out of the game, which is a great advantage, a GWF that is stuck on some point will not roam around destroying your squishies, who in turn will be able to destroy the enemies.
Why would you want to nerf a class that feels good when you play it and makes the game fun? It doesn't make any sense and frustrates so many people.
Yeah feels good, too good. My gwf toon with t1 pvp set + blue jewlery/shirt/pants after I put on him my p.vorpal + rank 8 enchants was destroying PUGs so hard I couldn't believe it. In 10 matches i died 3 times maybe. It's fun to have /godmode, but only for a little while. Soon there will be no other class in pvp... oh yeah sounds like fun!
Yeah feels good, too good. My gwf toon with t1 pvp set + blue jewlery/shirt/pants after I put on him my p.vorpal + rank 8 enchants was destroying PUGs so hard I couldn't believe it. In 10 matches i died 3 times maybe. It's fun to have /godmode, but only for a little while. Soon there will be no other class in pvp... oh yeah sounds like fun!
There is no such thing as "too good", as this is a game, with the sole purpose of allowing people to enjoy themselves. The better you feel, the better the game is. And it's not truly a godmode, it just requires more than it should be required, good GWF should not need combined efforts and prones like its some kind of PvE miniboss, one class and same level of gear/skill should be fine.
As you can see, the main issue here is that other classes don't feel as good as the GWF. Fix that, and all will be fine.
There is no such thing as "too good", as this is a game, with the sole purpose of allowing people to enjoy themselves. The better you feel, the better the game is. And it's not truly a godmode, it just requires more than it should be required, good GWF should not need combined efforts and prones like its some kind of PvE miniboss, one class and same level of gear/skill should be fine.
As you can see, the main issue here is that other classes don't feel as good as the GWF. Fix that, and all will be fine.
No nerfs needed.
If you up the other classes GWF wont feel good anymore For instance, I played a good HR on the PTR the other day, tore me a new one... I couldnt touch him... Spammed dodge so much then combined with bull charge prone I couldnt do anything...
Front line prone him -> dodge
takedown -> dodge
Felt stupid to be honest.... But then I play a CW and just laugh cause they cant do anything....
Overall tho I agree if other classes felt more powerful that would be ideal.
GFs -> more tanky/harder to kill
DCs-> more healing ability to heal party
CW-> more "spells" like "invisibility" or more control powers that work in pvp...
TR -> shouldnt be relying on "perma stealth" but fun encounters...
HRs seem pretty OP atm... Id still buff range spec...
I said "Best DCs". You shouldn't be able to tank a BiS PvP sent if you don't have BiS gear/enchants/spec yourself, pretty logical, yes?
And no they don't facetank the GWF, ideally they will dodge the prone/high damage encounters.
And while I could give you names of DCs that a GWF might never manage to kill, it would be pretty lame to name here people that might not wanna be named. Hint: at least one of them is a pretty active poster in the DC subforum. If you would have taken a look at the streams that a certain BiS GWF put up, you would hear how annoyed was he with this DC.
Putting a good DC on a savage BiS GWF is a sure way to take him out of the game, which is a great advantage, a GWF that is stuck on some point will not roam around destroying your squishies, who in turn will be able to destroy the enemies.
Obviously i know who they are (those sent elite cleric) but they are really few of them, and it really becomes odd when you must be overgeared to stall a normal geared GWF. Only a DC with legend artifacts, R8 above and perfect enchant can survive and stalemate a epic artifact, R7 above and greater enchantment GWF without any great danger. I rarely see a normal DC that can stalemate a normal GWF at equal gs btw, oh ya, clerics do do dodge, that is part of our sent build too.
There is no such thing as "too good", as this is a game, with the sole purpose of allowing people to enjoy themselves. The better you feel, the better the game is. And it's not truly a godmode, it just requires more than it should be required, good GWF should not need combined efforts and prones like its some kind of PvE miniboss, one class and same level of gear/skill should be fine.
As you can see, the main issue here is that other classes don't feel as good as the GWF. Fix that, and all will be fine.
No nerfs needed.
Let me put it in a very simple way so you may understand.
1. We have a survival game field here, where people duke it out in squadron strengths. Going pew-pew here, charging there, some times sniping, etc etc..
2. Among this chaotic battlefield of gun-fights and showdowns, there's someone who brings not a paint-gun, but a fully-automated, quick-firing 152mm artillery that rains down 15' radius paint bombs on the entire field.
3. Sure, some of us better players may be able to risk our lives and assault the position, and be able to take out this cursed battery. But we need like 2~3 people to commit everything to do that. And when 2~3 of us commit our lives for this task, who is going to defend against the rest of the enemis?
4. By the time the artillery has been taken out, the shells already landed at our undefended lines have all but allowed a total steam-roll in favor of the enemy.
...and your 'solution' to the problem is, "let's allow every player to arm oneself with the same wide-area paint-ball artillery"... wow, think of what this wonderful 'balancing' is going to do for the future of survival games.
The basics of game-balancing:
"When there's a nail protruding out of the structure, you hammer it back in, not pull all the other nails out to the same degree -- which will only result in the entire structure crashing down."
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This discussion leads nowhere. GWF haters cry for nerfs as usual, GWF players don't see any room for rebalance and some self proclaimed pros display their wit within walls of text essentially not providing anything of relevance. Luckily there's a select few who actually really contribute with good input but then again get wall-of-text'd down again. Sad.
Another sad fact: I'm not better or smarter by any means and also not contributing anything of relevance. If I were, I would have refrained from replying here. But I just couldn't take it any longer.
Yeah feels good, too good. My gwf toon with t1 pvp set + blue jewlery/shirt/pants after I put on him my p.vorpal + rank 8 enchants was destroying PUGs so hard I couldn't believe it. In 10 matches i died 3 times maybe. It's fun to have /godmode, but only for a little while. Soon there will be no other class in pvp... oh yeah sounds like fun!
- T1 PvP set is among the best sets for a GWF. I noticed it, even more after module 2 which buffed its healing bonus. Gannicus noticed it too and posted about it. The T1 PvP set heals you for a lot, 2k+ on my 29k HP hybrid, everytime you go unstoppable. Which means that going unstoppable i heal for my regeneration plus the armor healing plus unstoppable recovery. Obviously it depends on what you want. 2/2 titan-scrapper gives also more defense and deflection, plus regeneration. But still, the T1 PvP set is a very good set for PvP, right now. Will change when healing depression is implemented, since the healing bonus will be cut in half.
- Blue jewelry usually means regeneration jewelry and is the preferred choice for GWFs in PvP. Blue shirt-pants means nothing if they have the enchant slot. Cause the base stats compared to purple give a marginal improvement. Which does not make the difference in PvP, for sure.
- Rank 8 enchants are already above average
- Perfect enchants for sure make more difference than most gear. Your defensive enchant is perfect too? Perfect vorpal is a 50% increase in crit severity. Which also feeds your deep gash.
Your gear is above average, expecially the enchant, at least for PUGs. Many PUGs these days have people with bad gear, bad builds and bad knowledge of the enemy.
Most PUG players don't know how to take down a GWF. They keep shooting at him feeding his determination. I've seen this happening countless times.
You go fight some serious PvPers and you'll see you can't tank 2-3 enemies that easily. In PUG, it's a walk in the park for any experienced PvPer. For GWFs, just more since people seems to do not understand how unstoppable works.
This is to say that yes, GWFs right now, on certain builds with certain gear are too powerful, expecially cause they can go very very tanky and still keep a pretty good attack power.
But if they seem unkillable or like a epic dungeon bosses tanking 3+ enemies alone, to some players, it's just cause, in addition, they are not good at PvP and/ or undergeared.
Healing depression will already erase the problem of tank builds regenerating-healing too fast. Threat rush must be non-spammable and may be reduced in range. ArP bonus must go from CON to strenght, and DoT resistance from Strenght to CON.
And would already be enough.
TRs don't need buffs if played correctly.
HRs don't need buffs, rather a fix to the roots bug.
DCs may need to keep a bit more of their healing capability even with healing depression.
GFs seem to get their crown in tankiness, at the cost of a loss in attack power, which is fair.
CWs are the only ones, may be, that could use a little buff for PvP.
If you up the other classes GWF wont feel good anymore For instance, I played a good HR on the PTR the other day, tore me a new one... I couldnt touch him... Spammed dodge so much then combined with bull charge prone I couldnt do anything...
Front line prone him -> dodge
takedown -> dodge
Felt stupid to be honest.... But then I play a CW and just laugh cause they cant do anything....
Overall tho I agree if other classes felt more powerful that would be ideal.
GFs -> more tanky/harder to kill
DCs-> more healing ability to heal party
CW-> more "spells" like "invisibility" or more control powers that work in pvp...
TR -> shouldnt be relying on "perma stealth" but fun encounters...
HRs seem pretty OP atm... Id still buff range spec...
I came across a pretty good TR. I mean, after playing countless pug matches with bad-mediocre TRs, i eventually found a EoA pug vs pug, with members of the guild in both teams. My team got CW and if i recall well, TR. The other team got 2 GWF tanks and 1 or 2 TRs. We won, and i was actually surprised about how much the TR could keep my team busy. It's not like the 2 sentinels were weak. They were not. But they did not give as much problems as the TR. I got to go back to our base a few times to force him retreat.
He was able to make very smooth transitions from ITC to dodge roll to stealth, leaving milliseconds of vulnerability between each move, and he was also pretty good at trying to not be predictable when moving during stealth.
I Always like how skilled TRs can be really strong.
CWs are the only ones that, to me, feel like they need really some kind of PvP buff. Some more push back moves, or 1-2 more teleports. Don't know.
The one simple fact IS GWF in PVP are god like.they have no weakness compared to other classes in the game.
This new supposed nerf effects ALL classes not just GWF.
So it will be same old same old GWF owning everyone god mode in PVP.It already is on the test shard.
So you GWF dont have to worry about being mortal like all the rest of the classes that have weaknesses. GWFs are the most favored class yet again under the new system, since defense/deflect/Tenacity all stack, and GWFs usually bring more of these in games.
This nerf really is only gonna make DC's obsolete.
If GWFs (like myself) want damage, it should be at a loss of tankiness. So far the GWF gets the best of all worlds.
1) ULTRA tanky
2) Amazing burst damage
3) Good CC
4) Amazing Anti-CC
So whats the downside of the class? Cant think of one.... Versus EVERY other class has downsides.
GF:
Pros - Ultra Tanky (with PVP gear for more block meter). Good CC/prones
Cons - Low damage, low mobility, no CC resist
CWs:
Pros - High damage, Decent control
Cons - Squishy, no CC resist
TRs:
Pros - High damage, can build for "perma stealth"
Cons - No CC, squishy when caught.
Need I go on?
Now there ARE things that should be fixed, like the perma build a tad. But overall the GWF is just too powerful right now.
Pre Mod 2, Sents had low damage but high survivability. This was due to lack of itemization for needed stats (regen) and lack of damage feats. Mod 2 gave artifacts, opening up more gear combos, and also IV path gave a massive damage boost with threat rush.
So pick which aspect GWF should give up...
damage? CC immunity? Tankiness?
Personally I would like to see the GWF be more the "jack of all trades" so its decent tankiness, decent damage, etc... But right now it does everything.
The one simple fact IS GWF in PVP are god like.they have no weakness compared to other classes in the game.
This new supposed nerf effects ALL classes not just GWF.
So it will be same old same old GWF owning everyone god mode in PVP.It already is on the test shard.
So you GWF dont have to worry about being mortal like all the rest of the classes that have weaknesses. GWFs are the most favored class yet again under the new system, since defense/deflect/Tenacity all stack, and GWFs usually bring more of these in games.
This nerf really is only gonna make DC's obsolete.
And this ONLY effects PVP NOT PVE.
this post below sums it all up.
I'm not so sure about all of this. GWF is not godmode such as a very well defined role in pvp. If you are familiar with American football, the gwf is the equivalent of the quarterback position. In any 5v4, 4v3, 3v2, and so on, the gwf making an entrance to the fight is a big deal. It is a team game. Your gwf counters their gwf. Part of the strategy is to keep the enemy gwf tied up by a non--gwf so that teams gwf can be free to change the game in any other ongoing fights. That is why, imo, it is stupid to have a gwf alone on a node that is filling up blue. Someone else needs to hold that "uncontested" but filling up node while the gwf can get to a node where there is actually a fight going on, or to a node that has none of your team mates on it but is filling up red. Any of the other classes can tie up that lone gwf who is trying to hold a node and make it twice as long to take the node. All the while the enemy gwf is free to wreak havoc.
So ya, you face tank a gwf and it seems like fighting god. Because it is designed to be heavy defense and heavy offense. But you dodge, range burst, or otherwise present a moving target and you will tie him up. No one wants too say it because they don't want to look bad but for as good as threatening rush is, it is not perfect. It is not easy to always catch the enemy player with this. And gf's of equal gs and skill are just HAMSTER frustrating while playing a gwf. You try to whittle down their block meter with at wills to save your encounters for when it runs out and if they are any good they have you bounced across the node before that meter runs out because they aren't really doing enough damage to trigger unstoppable. The key to nullifying a gwfs impact on a match overall is to simply force him to waste time on you. Not to try to kill him unless you have him alone with most of your team and can just keep him in lockdown while bursting him down to nothing.
yeah nothing to wory if sentinel gwf they are still god like have better damage then instigator or destroyer while 45k+hp.50%+resist+40+deflect tentacy changed nothing it even help sentinel to become more op i wish they would move armorpentration from con and change mark feat in thread this would nerf them a bit at least
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So ya, you face tank a gwf and it seems like fighting god. Because it is designed to be heavy defense and heavy offense. But you dodge, range burst, or otherwise present a moving target and you will tie him up. Not to try to kill him unless you have him alone with most of your team and can just keep him in lockdown while bursting him down to nothing.
Why the hell am I supposed to ask help from team to kill GWF? How is this sounding sane to you? And you cannot kite them forever either btw.
Heavy defense AND heavy offense? LOL. What else?
This is an MMO, we have tradeoffs.
It goes like this:
- heavy offense, low defense
- heavy defense, low offense
- hybrid, with both average offense and defense
You think people want to facetank GWFs? They don't but you dodge one encounter, great, dodge the second, cool, you're already a pro and better than 99% of the game, jump around pillars, even better, ultrapro, jumpcast kite&stuff, omg, you're a demigod.
All this time the GWF STILL dealt to you heavy TR damage. Now you're finally out of stamina, even as you took all feats&boons to increase it, spam that shift key, but the GWF gets their first prone in. "No probs" you think, prones are shorter on Preview... nah... GWF STILL can continue their combo before you can get away. "No probs"you think, I have maxed Tenacity and defensive gear all the way. Nah, the IBS left you in soulforge, and you no longer regen, no longer heal from artifact, no longer anything.
All this time, GWF sits at 80% or so HP, comfortably, and play with a smile "look at this guy trying to escape, lulz, I'm such a pro".
And yeah... next few seconds... you're dead.
Just be realistic man. Say things as they are. No more sugarcoating, I'm sick of it already.
Why the hell am I supposed to ask help from team to kill GWF? How is this sounding sane to you? And you cannot kite them forever either btw.
Heavy defense AND heavy offense? LOL. What else?
This is an MMO, we have tradeoffs.
It goes like this:
- heavy offense, low defense
- heavy defense, low offense
- hybrid, with both average offense and defense
You think people want to facetank GWFs? They don't but you dodge one encounter, great, dodge the second, cool, you're already a pro and better than 99% of the game, jump around pillars, even better, ultrapro, jumpcast kite&stuff, omg, you're a demigod.
All this time the GWF STILL dealt to you heavy TR damage. Now you're finally out of stamina, even as you took all feats&boons to increase it, spam that shift key, but the GWF gets their first prone in. "No probs" you think, prones are shorter on Preview... nah... GWF STILL can continue their combo before you can get away. "No probs"you think, I have maxed Tenacity and defensive gear all the way. Nah, the IBS left you in soulforge, and you no longer regen, no longer heal from artifact, no longer anything.
All this time, GWF sits at 80% or so HP, comfortably, and play with a smile "look at this guy trying to escape, lulz, I'm such a pro".
And yeah... next few seconds... you're dead.
Just be realistic man. Say things as they are. No more sugarcoating, I'm sick of it already.
True, but it's more than this.
First of all, the GWFs not having tradeoffs is not a class fault. It's a fault in the stat attributes strictly related to PvP. The class, in its right, relies on strenght, constitution and dexterity. Now, in PvE THERE IS tradeoff between attack power and defense. A sentinel tank does not deal as much damage as a DPS-oriented build.
The problem comes in PvP, cause the main offensive stat shift to ArP makes CON the best attribute for both defense AND attack. As said in other threads, switching ArP to STR and DoT resistance to CON, would make STR builds really more effective for damage, and CON builds more effective at tanking but at the cost of attack power.
Also, it's, again, very much a fault talking about GWFs gods. You mentioned the CW, and it's all true. But, for example, there are HRs, like ayroux mentioned, who can face and also beat GWFs 1v1. And there are skilled TRs who can use their ITC, immunity dodge and stealth so well that they can face GWFs and stall them, or beat them if they are less skilled. Some good DCs can stall sentinel tanks. And strong GFs can face them 1v1 too.
Also, in parties formed by good PvPers, it's quite rare to see a GWF being able to tank 3+ enemies for long time.
CWs are a Whole different matter. They are, in PvP, lacking defensive options severely. They can have very good DPS, but their defense is usually not enough. And being able to survive long enough is a focus for PvP. The main focus, since attack can be compensated by fighting in Group, while lack of defense usually cannot be compensated, not even by DCs deploying their protection on the battlefield.
I'd love to see TR reduced by range and not spammable, to make it not cheap as it is, but a power to use wisely against ranged classes. And even reduced in damage, obviously.
Also, i'd love to see ArP switched to STR.
Imho, just these 2 changes would make a world of difference.
First of all, the GWFs not having tradeoffs is not a class fault. It's a fault in the stat attributes strictly related to PvP. The class, in its right, relies on strenght, constitution and dexterity. Now, in PvE THERE IS tradeoff between attack power and defense. A sentinel tank does not deal as much damage as a DPS-oriented build.
The problem comes in PvP, cause the main offensive stat shift to ArP makes CON the best attribute for both defense AND attack. As said in other threads, switching ArP to STR and DoT resistance to CON, would make STR builds really more effective for damage, and CON builds more effective at tanking but at the cost of attack power.
Also, it's, again, very much a fault talking about GWFs gods. You mentioned the CW, and it's all true. But, for example, there are HRs, like ayroux mentioned, who can face and also beat GWFs 1v1. And there are skilled TRs who can use their ITC, immunity dodge and stealth so well that they can face GWFs and stall them, or beat them if they are less skilled. Some good DCs can stall sentinel tanks. And strong GFs can face them 1v1 too.
Also, in parties formed by good PvPers, it's quite rare to see a GWF being able to tank 3+ enemies for long time.
CWs are a Whole different matter. They are, in PvP, lacking defensive options severely. They can have very good DPS, but their defense is usually not enough. And being able to survive long enough is a focus for PvP. The main focus, since attack can be compensated by fighting in Group, while lack of defense usually cannot be compensated, not even by DCs deploying their protection on the battlefield.
I'd love to see TR reduced by range and not spammable, to make it not cheap as it is, but a power to use wisely against ranged classes. And even reduced in damage, obviously.
Also, i'd love to see ArP switched to STR.
Imho, just these 2 changes would make a world of difference.
armor penetration on str would not change anything since sentinel have str+con high it needs to be moved to dex or removed and replaced with action point gain or coldawn reduction also feat for 15% damage on marked tragets should be change to thread and to have trample on tank path is wrong it either need to me moved to swordmaster or changed to more thread instead of damage on controled targets and feat for more regen hp when use unsstopale should be chaged to something other movment speed for example and all hp bossting items should have its hp bonus halfed it is wrong to have 2.5k hp more per item
I am not a fan of the arpen on is not a good idea in my opinion. GWFs pre-mod 2 were not an issue with all that ArPen on Con didn't make them into unkiteable, burst damage kings because of the mechanics of the class. Address the mechanics of the class instead of working around it to keep the same mechanics to balance them by changing their attributes or giving them crappy tier 2.5 gear.
ArPen on Con could use a nerf to be 50-70% as effective though.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
armor penetration on str would not change anything since sentinel have str+con high it needs to be moved to dex or removed and replaced with action point gain or coldawn reduction also feat for 15% damage on marked tragets should be change to thread and to have trample on tank path is wrong it either need to me moved to swordmaster or changed to more thread instead of damage on controled targets and feat for more regen hp when use unsstopale should be chaged to something other movment speed for example and all hp bossting items should have its hp bonus halfed it is wrong to have 2.5k hp more per item
As kolat say, most sentinels have con+dex builds.
Simple reason is, dex gives deflection.
You go con+str, you lose deflection.
Move it to dex, and you have yet another attribute that boosts deflection (with healing depression, deflection is going to be more important) and ArP (best pvp offensive stat).
Right now, going con+dex allows sentinels to max out defense AND offense for PvP.
The need to go strenght for attack power would still lower their deflection, which means they can't get both best defense and offense, but have to trade off on attributes.
Iron Vanguard or Swordmaster do not determine a tank path. There are destroyer IV too.
What determines a DPS or tank path are mostly the Destroyer-Instigator-Sentinel feats and heroic feats.
There you find the stuff that mostly boost constitution, defense exc...or DPS.
IV or SM, to me, just determine different playstyles. Flourish may need a boost in damage, but overall both paths in new module should have advantages and disadvantages (frontline got nerfed on single target, but increased cap on AoE).
I would say Swordmaster is more single target oriented, and IV is more AoE oriented. Depends on playstyle what you choose.
Biggest difference is threat rush. It gives so much more mobility, making the GWF much more aggressive in PvP. That's the main reason to go IV for PvP.
Biggest difference is threat rush. It gives so much more mobility, making the GWF much more aggressive in PvP. That's the main reason to go IV for PvP.
Pretty much this. This is the main issue for GWF at the moment simply because you cannot get away from them if they use it (unless you are a HR and root them completely).
Why the hell am I supposed to ask help from team to kill GWF? How is this sounding sane to you? And you cannot kite them forever either btw.
Heavy defense AND heavy offense? LOL. What else?
This is an MMO, we have tradeoffs.
It goes like this:
- heavy offense, low defense
- heavy defense, low offense
- hybrid, with both average offense and defense
No, no, no. This IS an mmo. Which means there are 4 roles or primary general attributes: Damage, Tank, Control, Heal.
GWF is heavy Damage, heavy Tank, medium Heal, low Control.
CW is super heavy Damage, low Tank, low heal, and heavy Control.
CW imo is underpowered in terms of across the board attributes and could stand being buffed up to medium tank, medium heal. That one is under powered does not mean the other is OP. It means one needs a buff, not that the other needs a nerf.
You think people want to facetank GWFs? They don't but you dodge one encounter, great, dodge the second, cool, you're already a pro and better than 99% of the game, jump around pillars, even better, ultrapro, jumpcast kite&stuff, omg, you're a demigod.
All this time the GWF STILL dealt to you heavy TR damage. Now you're finally out of stamina, even as you took all feats&boons to increase it, spam that shift key, but the GWF gets their first prone in. "No probs" you think, prones are shorter on Preview... nah... GWF STILL can continue their combo before you can get away. "No probs"you think, I have maxed Tenacity and defensive gear all the way. Nah, the IBS left you in soulforge, and you no longer regen, no longer heal from artifact, no longer anything.
All this time, GWF sits at 80% or so HP, comfortably, and play with a smile "look at this guy trying to escape, lulz, I'm such a pro".
And yeah... next few seconds... you're dead.
Just be realistic man. Say things as they are. No more sugarcoating, I'm sick of it already.
I am saying them as I see them. The best way to quantify things in an MMO is using MMO methods of quantification, no? That means the standard MMO paradigm of Tank, Damage, Control, and Heals. It is all about roles. The nature of Domination pvp puts gwf at the very top. If it were a game of ranged combat instead, GWF would be at the bottom.
HR's and CW's would be saying, "Don't try to out damage us at range or you will lose." And they would be right.
The classes are neither broken or unbalanced. The central problem is the single mode of PVP, which is a close combat form of pvp. So of course the best class at close combat is going to be considered OP.
That all this time is being spent of fixes to a non-broke class system pretty much shows that either
#1. The devs have absolutely no intent to ever make other pvp modes. or
#2. The devs are so lost in some abstract world of ultra overcomplex somutions to simple problems that a massive cluster f*(*& is being made of the whole thing.
We simply need more pvp modes and matchmaking and that will fix the entire problem.
Period.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid Jugger Conq GF
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0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
Sorry overddrive, but you lost all credibility when you pretend that heavy tank+heavy damage is acceptable in MMOs.
Also CW is NOT heavy CC, and it will be even LESS CC very soon.
Also CW is NOT heavy damage. GWF dishes more heavy damage overall, run ACT on a match and you will see.
Also GWF is NOT low CC, it has very good prones, including AoE ranged prone (lulz.... )
Heavy armor, CC invulnerability on taking damage, Prones, speed boost, heavy damage...
Comments
Did I claim to be a pro or that the other gwfs on my team are all pros? NO I did not. I think we are pretty **** good and are working to both improve our gear and hone our skills, but we are not elite. I have NO PROBLEM admitting that. Basing ANY kind of nerf logic on the absolute best players of a class is explicitly UNREASONABLE. And I think that is what is happening here.
There is a difference between "properly geared and good player" and "BIS leet pvp uber hardcore player". The former does not suck and the latter is the worst possible basis for any kind of nerf. If anything, where gwf is "weak/unbalanced" as a class because it is really easy to optimize into that one single solid build. Unlike TR's who have a plethora of great builds to choose from.
I agree GWFs do not need nerfed as hard as it looks life they are going to be. But I also think the "two gwfs can kill two of any other class" assumption is flat out wrong. All other things being perfectly equal, the gwf is the best class for pvp. But not by miles, by inches. People are shouting for perfect parity and that just is never going to happen. What will happen is GWFs will get nerfed and TR's will again be the best class to play in pvp. Which is one reason I am making a TR.
And look at my sig, I play both my gf and my cw in pvp all the time. GWF's can be countered. Lockdown and burst.
Jugger Conq GF
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We can simply forget about how a certain class or build may or may not take them down in a 1vs1. Sure, I can take 'em down alone if they are one or two notches below the top-end GWFs in terms of either gears, or skill, or both. That's not even the issue here. Let's also just simply close our eyes to the fact that the class is made so easy -- that the margin of error against fighting one is so small, and yet for the GWF so stupidly large, that your one mistake leads to instant death, whereas the guy can make a truck-load of stupid, idiotic, and obvious moves and yet still turn the fight around and kill you within 10 seconds if he gets in one lucky KD.
Those are the least of worries. The problem the class holds in a PvP game-format that concentrates on;
* basically "king-of-the-hill" type of area-domination/suppression
* a system which is heavily influenced by tactical use of CCs
It's simply insurmountable.
It doesn't matter if the GWF is experienced or not so long as the GWF is geared at a comparable level to your own players (and not something like 8~9k against 14~15k). At a comparable level of gear and equipment, when you face a GWF you face a class with the:
* highest HP pool in the game
* among the highest defense/damage reduction in the game
* very high damage capacity
* equipped with 3 CCs which are all Knock-prones and range/AoE
* fastest movement/run speed in the game
* equipped with a God-Mode that can be fired off almost back-to-back
* virtually no real "weakness"
Even if you can take the fight favorably against it, doesn't matter. You're not going to be able to hold any ground, since without a GWF on your own team, the moment a GWF charges in your line is simply pushed back, back, back, back, and back. The tactical burden your team faces is huge, essentially taking at least 2~3 experienced players with good enough gear to keep it under check.
So, against these top-level GWFs, you need your own top level people, and two~three of them. Bring in to the fact that this is a team game, and therefore, let's add in one of those tanclerics behind that GWF. So you now need three people against that one GWF, you put two of yours to harass that DC, who is as much unkillable btw.. so then who is going to keep under check the three enemy players that roam free?
Come on, don't act like you GWF players don't notice this.
Don't play dumb, and don't pretend you don't know just what kind of tactical impact a single powerful GWF has on the team.
Whenever a GWF is in the enemy team, his tactical weight is equivalent to at least two non-GWF players in this team. Unless each and every member of your own team is such skilled and geared well enough to be worth more than two average players, in the long run you're never going to win.
Hence, people start developing other tactics, such as avoiding direct confrontation with the DC-GWF duo, and running back nodes and empty nodes fast enough to still win with points. This can work if there is only ONE GWF in the enemy team.
Then what happens if there is two? Three? If the enemy team has a GWF and a perma-TR?
The only way you can counter this -- Bring GWFs of your own.
When there's an option that is impossible to counter, or impractially difficult to do so without using the very same option of your own -- we call that "OP".
If we want to fix this, its either we limit the "God Mode" in terms of CC immunity, or we make it easier to kill them through focused fire. My personal choice would have been the former, but the developers have chosen the latter.
Like so with any other classes, they must also FEAR dying if they simply charge into enemy lines. Only, and only when they have to think twice before simply pushing forward, that their impact on PvP is reduced to normal levels.
There's nothing that is not deserving, what the developers did about both GWFs and DCs.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Make Threatening Rush cd 5 sec.
PvE sentinel gwf not feel the nerf, PvP sentinel gwf will be less viable.
They're not pretending. =P
Sorry, as a active pvp cleric I want to give my opinion. In equal gs bracket (eg 12k vs 12k or 15k vs 15k) GWF always kill a DC, it is just a bit time consuming, a 2 or 3 triple knock-prone chain can effectively kill a DC. Maybe I am unacknowledged, but out of several thousands of cleric who do pvp, please kindly list out 20 non-overgeared DC that can face tank any equal gs GWF. I can stall a 14k gs GWF with my non-sent buffing build (12k gs) with T1 high prophet set just for 5 minutes at max. I wonder is there at least 20 tanky sent speced clerics that can face tank BIS geared GWF?? I don't think so.
I said "Best DCs". You shouldn't be able to tank a BiS PvP sent if you don't have BiS gear/enchants/spec yourself, pretty logical, yes?
And no they don't facetank the GWF, ideally they will dodge the prone/high damage encounters.
And while I could give you names of DCs that a GWF might never manage to kill, it would be pretty lame to name here people that might not wanna be named. Hint: at least one of them is a pretty active poster in the DC subforum. If you would have taken a look at the streams that a certain BiS GWF put up, you would hear how annoyed was he with this DC.
Putting a good DC on a savage BiS GWF is a sure way to take him out of the game, which is a great advantage, a GWF that is stuck on some point will not roam around destroying your squishies, who in turn will be able to destroy the enemies.
Yeah feels good, too good. My gwf toon with t1 pvp set + blue jewlery/shirt/pants after I put on him my p.vorpal + rank 8 enchants was destroying PUGs so hard I couldn't believe it. In 10 matches i died 3 times maybe. It's fun to have /godmode, but only for a little while. Soon there will be no other class in pvp... oh yeah sounds like fun!
Just wanted to clarify that. :cool:
There is no such thing as "too good", as this is a game, with the sole purpose of allowing people to enjoy themselves. The better you feel, the better the game is. And it's not truly a godmode, it just requires more than it should be required, good GWF should not need combined efforts and prones like its some kind of PvE miniboss, one class and same level of gear/skill should be fine.
As you can see, the main issue here is that other classes don't feel as good as the GWF. Fix that, and all will be fine.
No nerfs needed.
If you up the other classes GWF wont feel good anymore
Front line prone him -> dodge
takedown -> dodge
Felt stupid to be honest.... But then I play a CW and just laugh cause they cant do anything....
Overall tho I agree if other classes felt more powerful that would be ideal.
GFs -> more tanky/harder to kill
DCs-> more healing ability to heal party
CW-> more "spells" like "invisibility" or more control powers that work in pvp...
TR -> shouldnt be relying on "perma stealth" but fun encounters...
HRs seem pretty OP atm... Id still buff range spec...
Obviously i know who they are (those sent elite cleric) but they are really few of them, and it really becomes odd when you must be overgeared to stall a normal geared GWF. Only a DC with legend artifacts, R8 above and perfect enchant can survive and stalemate a epic artifact, R7 above and greater enchantment GWF without any great danger. I rarely see a normal DC that can stalemate a normal GWF at equal gs btw, oh ya, clerics do do dodge, that is part of our sent build too.
Let me put it in a very simple way so you may understand.
1. We have a survival game field here, where people duke it out in squadron strengths. Going pew-pew here, charging there, some times sniping, etc etc..
2. Among this chaotic battlefield of gun-fights and showdowns, there's someone who brings not a paint-gun, but a fully-automated, quick-firing 152mm artillery that rains down 15' radius paint bombs on the entire field.
3. Sure, some of us better players may be able to risk our lives and assault the position, and be able to take out this cursed battery. But we need like 2~3 people to commit everything to do that. And when 2~3 of us commit our lives for this task, who is going to defend against the rest of the enemis?
4. By the time the artillery has been taken out, the shells already landed at our undefended lines have all but allowed a total steam-roll in favor of the enemy.
...and your 'solution' to the problem is, "let's allow every player to arm oneself with the same wide-area paint-ball artillery"... wow, think of what this wonderful 'balancing' is going to do for the future of survival games.
The basics of game-balancing:
"When there's a nail protruding out of the structure, you hammer it back in, not pull all the other nails out to the same degree -- which will only result in the entire structure crashing down."
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This discussion leads nowhere. GWF haters cry for nerfs as usual, GWF players don't see any room for rebalance and some self proclaimed pros display their wit within walls of text essentially not providing anything of relevance. Luckily there's a select few who actually really contribute with good input but then again get wall-of-text'd down again. Sad.
Another sad fact: I'm not better or smarter by any means and also not contributing anything of relevance. If I were, I would have refrained from replying here. But I just couldn't take it any longer.
- T1 PvP set is among the best sets for a GWF. I noticed it, even more after module 2 which buffed its healing bonus. Gannicus noticed it too and posted about it. The T1 PvP set heals you for a lot, 2k+ on my 29k HP hybrid, everytime you go unstoppable. Which means that going unstoppable i heal for my regeneration plus the armor healing plus unstoppable recovery. Obviously it depends on what you want. 2/2 titan-scrapper gives also more defense and deflection, plus regeneration. But still, the T1 PvP set is a very good set for PvP, right now. Will change when healing depression is implemented, since the healing bonus will be cut in half.
- Blue jewelry usually means regeneration jewelry and is the preferred choice for GWFs in PvP. Blue shirt-pants means nothing if they have the enchant slot. Cause the base stats compared to purple give a marginal improvement. Which does not make the difference in PvP, for sure.
- Rank 8 enchants are already above average
- Perfect enchants for sure make more difference than most gear. Your defensive enchant is perfect too? Perfect vorpal is a 50% increase in crit severity. Which also feeds your deep gash.
Your gear is above average, expecially the enchant, at least for PUGs. Many PUGs these days have people with bad gear, bad builds and bad knowledge of the enemy.
Most PUG players don't know how to take down a GWF. They keep shooting at him feeding his determination. I've seen this happening countless times.
You go fight some serious PvPers and you'll see you can't tank 2-3 enemies that easily. In PUG, it's a walk in the park for any experienced PvPer. For GWFs, just more since people seems to do not understand how unstoppable works.
This is to say that yes, GWFs right now, on certain builds with certain gear are too powerful, expecially cause they can go very very tanky and still keep a pretty good attack power.
But if they seem unkillable or like a epic dungeon bosses tanking 3+ enemies alone, to some players, it's just cause, in addition, they are not good at PvP and/ or undergeared.
Healing depression will already erase the problem of tank builds regenerating-healing too fast. Threat rush must be non-spammable and may be reduced in range. ArP bonus must go from CON to strenght, and DoT resistance from Strenght to CON.
And would already be enough.
TRs don't need buffs if played correctly.
HRs don't need buffs, rather a fix to the roots bug.
DCs may need to keep a bit more of their healing capability even with healing depression.
GFs seem to get their crown in tankiness, at the cost of a loss in attack power, which is fair.
CWs are the only ones, may be, that could use a little buff for PvP.
I came across a pretty good TR. I mean, after playing countless pug matches with bad-mediocre TRs, i eventually found a EoA pug vs pug, with members of the guild in both teams. My team got CW and if i recall well, TR. The other team got 2 GWF tanks and 1 or 2 TRs. We won, and i was actually surprised about how much the TR could keep my team busy. It's not like the 2 sentinels were weak. They were not. But they did not give as much problems as the TR. I got to go back to our base a few times to force him retreat.
He was able to make very smooth transitions from ITC to dodge roll to stealth, leaving milliseconds of vulnerability between each move, and he was also pretty good at trying to not be predictable when moving during stealth.
I Always like how skilled TRs can be really strong.
CWs are the only ones that, to me, feel like they need really some kind of PvP buff. Some more push back moves, or 1-2 more teleports. Don't know.
This new supposed nerf effects ALL classes not just GWF.
So it will be same old same old GWF owning everyone god mode in PVP.It already is on the test shard.
So you GWF dont have to worry about being mortal like all the rest of the classes that have weaknesses. GWFs are the most favored class yet again under the new system, since defense/deflect/Tenacity all stack, and GWFs usually bring more of these in games.
This nerf really is only gonna make DC's obsolete.
And this ONLY effects PVP NOT PVE.
this post below sums it all up.
I'm not so sure about all of this. GWF is not godmode such as a very well defined role in pvp. If you are familiar with American football, the gwf is the equivalent of the quarterback position. In any 5v4, 4v3, 3v2, and so on, the gwf making an entrance to the fight is a big deal. It is a team game. Your gwf counters their gwf. Part of the strategy is to keep the enemy gwf tied up by a non--gwf so that teams gwf can be free to change the game in any other ongoing fights. That is why, imo, it is stupid to have a gwf alone on a node that is filling up blue. Someone else needs to hold that "uncontested" but filling up node while the gwf can get to a node where there is actually a fight going on, or to a node that has none of your team mates on it but is filling up red. Any of the other classes can tie up that lone gwf who is trying to hold a node and make it twice as long to take the node. All the while the enemy gwf is free to wreak havoc.
So ya, you face tank a gwf and it seems like fighting god. Because it is designed to be heavy defense and heavy offense. But you dodge, range burst, or otherwise present a moving target and you will tie him up. No one wants too say it because they don't want to look bad but for as good as threatening rush is, it is not perfect. It is not easy to always catch the enemy player with this. And gf's of equal gs and skill are just HAMSTER frustrating while playing a gwf. You try to whittle down their block meter with at wills to save your encounters for when it runs out and if they are any good they have you bounced across the node before that meter runs out because they aren't really doing enough damage to trigger unstoppable. The key to nullifying a gwfs impact on a match overall is to simply force him to waste time on you. Not to try to kill him unless you have him alone with most of your team and can just keep him in lockdown while bursting him down to nothing.
Jugger Conq GF
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Why the hell am I supposed to ask help from team to kill GWF? How is this sounding sane to you? And you cannot kite them forever either btw.
Heavy defense AND heavy offense? LOL. What else?
This is an MMO, we have tradeoffs.
It goes like this:
- heavy offense, low defense
- heavy defense, low offense
- hybrid, with both average offense and defense
You think people want to facetank GWFs? They don't but you dodge one encounter, great, dodge the second, cool, you're already a pro and better than 99% of the game, jump around pillars, even better, ultrapro, jumpcast kite&stuff, omg, you're a demigod.
All this time the GWF STILL dealt to you heavy TR damage. Now you're finally out of stamina, even as you took all feats&boons to increase it, spam that shift key, but the GWF gets their first prone in. "No probs" you think, prones are shorter on Preview... nah... GWF STILL can continue their combo before you can get away. "No probs"you think, I have maxed Tenacity and defensive gear all the way. Nah, the IBS left you in soulforge, and you no longer regen, no longer heal from artifact, no longer anything.
All this time, GWF sits at 80% or so HP, comfortably, and play with a smile "look at this guy trying to escape, lulz, I'm such a pro".
And yeah... next few seconds... you're dead.
Just be realistic man. Say things as they are. No more sugarcoating, I'm sick of it already.
True, but it's more than this.
First of all, the GWFs not having tradeoffs is not a class fault. It's a fault in the stat attributes strictly related to PvP. The class, in its right, relies on strenght, constitution and dexterity. Now, in PvE THERE IS tradeoff between attack power and defense. A sentinel tank does not deal as much damage as a DPS-oriented build.
The problem comes in PvP, cause the main offensive stat shift to ArP makes CON the best attribute for both defense AND attack. As said in other threads, switching ArP to STR and DoT resistance to CON, would make STR builds really more effective for damage, and CON builds more effective at tanking but at the cost of attack power.
Also, it's, again, very much a fault talking about GWFs gods. You mentioned the CW, and it's all true. But, for example, there are HRs, like ayroux mentioned, who can face and also beat GWFs 1v1. And there are skilled TRs who can use their ITC, immunity dodge and stealth so well that they can face GWFs and stall them, or beat them if they are less skilled. Some good DCs can stall sentinel tanks. And strong GFs can face them 1v1 too.
Also, in parties formed by good PvPers, it's quite rare to see a GWF being able to tank 3+ enemies for long time.
CWs are a Whole different matter. They are, in PvP, lacking defensive options severely. They can have very good DPS, but their defense is usually not enough. And being able to survive long enough is a focus for PvP. The main focus, since attack can be compensated by fighting in Group, while lack of defense usually cannot be compensated, not even by DCs deploying their protection on the battlefield.
I'd love to see TR reduced by range and not spammable, to make it not cheap as it is, but a power to use wisely against ranged classes. And even reduced in damage, obviously.
Also, i'd love to see ArP switched to STR.
Imho, just these 2 changes would make a world of difference.
armor penetration on str would not change anything since sentinel have str+con high it needs to be moved to dex or removed and replaced with action point gain or coldawn reduction also feat for 15% damage on marked tragets should be change to thread and to have trample on tank path is wrong it either need to me moved to swordmaster or changed to more thread instead of damage on controled targets and feat for more regen hp when use unsstopale should be chaged to something other movment speed for example and all hp bossting items should have its hp bonus halfed it is wrong to have 2.5k hp more per item
ArPen on Con could use a nerf to be 50-70% as effective though.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
As kolat say, most sentinels have con+dex builds.
Simple reason is, dex gives deflection.
You go con+str, you lose deflection.
Move it to dex, and you have yet another attribute that boosts deflection (with healing depression, deflection is going to be more important) and ArP (best pvp offensive stat).
Right now, going con+dex allows sentinels to max out defense AND offense for PvP.
The need to go strenght for attack power would still lower their deflection, which means they can't get both best defense and offense, but have to trade off on attributes.
Iron Vanguard or Swordmaster do not determine a tank path. There are destroyer IV too.
What determines a DPS or tank path are mostly the Destroyer-Instigator-Sentinel feats and heroic feats.
There you find the stuff that mostly boost constitution, defense exc...or DPS.
IV or SM, to me, just determine different playstyles. Flourish may need a boost in damage, but overall both paths in new module should have advantages and disadvantages (frontline got nerfed on single target, but increased cap on AoE).
I would say Swordmaster is more single target oriented, and IV is more AoE oriented. Depends on playstyle what you choose.
Biggest difference is threat rush. It gives so much more mobility, making the GWF much more aggressive in PvP. That's the main reason to go IV for PvP.
Pretty much this. This is the main issue for GWF at the moment simply because you cannot get away from them if they use it (unless you are a HR and root them completely).
No, no, no. This IS an mmo. Which means there are 4 roles or primary general attributes: Damage, Tank, Control, Heal.
GWF is heavy Damage, heavy Tank, medium Heal, low Control.
CW is super heavy Damage, low Tank, low heal, and heavy Control.
CW imo is underpowered in terms of across the board attributes and could stand being buffed up to medium tank, medium heal. That one is under powered does not mean the other is OP. It means one needs a buff, not that the other needs a nerf.
I am saying them as I see them. The best way to quantify things in an MMO is using MMO methods of quantification, no? That means the standard MMO paradigm of Tank, Damage, Control, and Heals. It is all about roles. The nature of Domination pvp puts gwf at the very top. If it were a game of ranged combat instead, GWF would be at the bottom.
HR's and CW's would be saying, "Don't try to out damage us at range or you will lose." And they would be right.
The classes are neither broken or unbalanced. The central problem is the single mode of PVP, which is a close combat form of pvp. So of course the best class at close combat is going to be considered OP.
That all this time is being spent of fixes to a non-broke class system pretty much shows that either
#1. The devs have absolutely no intent to ever make other pvp modes. or
#2. The devs are so lost in some abstract world of ultra overcomplex somutions to simple problems that a massive cluster f*(*& is being made of the whole thing.
We simply need more pvp modes and matchmaking and that will fix the entire problem.
Period.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Also CW is NOT heavy CC, and it will be even LESS CC very soon.
Also CW is NOT heavy damage. GWF dishes more heavy damage overall, run ACT on a match and you will see.
Also GWF is NOT low CC, it has very good prones, including AoE ranged prone (lulz....
Heavy armor, CC invulnerability on taking damage, Prones, speed boost, heavy damage...
And you think they are balanced in PvP.
OK. Seems legit.