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GF's ~ need some love!

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  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Doesn't matter how tanky you make them. They're already decent tanks. The problem is that tanks are kiters in this game and any class can kite. Making gf's tankier won't help them one iota.
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    Doesn't matter how tanky you make them. They're already decent tanks. The problem is that tanks are kiters in this game and any class can kite. Making gf's tankier won't help them one iota.


    It will if Tankier = More / Better damage mitigation being able to stand ground!
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    It will if Tankier = More / Better damage mitigation being able to stand ground!

    No because you'd still have lower dps and slow things down 99.99% of the time. There are only a couple fights where you can't just aoe things down. In that case you get a kiter. So yeah they could give you god mode where you can't die ever, and you could sit and get beat on that .01% of the time. But you'd still be a hinderance overall.
  • slushpsychoslushpsycho Member Posts: 657 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    uh cool beans, I never saw a dnd game/tabletop session where a fighter in heavy armor runs around in a circle to "control" enemies. But like you said, its how dnd defenders manage enemies right? If they don't want to fix the kite mechanic (which is fine, its fun if enforced threat didn't take forever to complete it's animation)how bout a viable buff to make skills like anvil of doom usable outside of 1/4 of a boss fight so i can break the horrible monotony of enforced threat, lunging strike, and frontline surge?

    You can, but also you can't. It really comes down to efficiency.
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    So whats your suggestion give GFs super run speed and make them the best kiters with heavy armor? Make GFs another pure DPS class that uses a shield?

    Give up on GFs and never play them again?


    charononus wrote: »
    No because you'd still have lower dps and slow things down 99.99% of the time. There are only a couple fights where you can't just aoe things down. In that case you get a kiter. So yeah they could give you god mode where you can't die ever, and you could sit and get beat on that .01% of the time. But you'd still be a hinderance overall.
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    So whats your suggestion give GFs super run speed and make them the best kiters with heavy armor? Make GFs another pure DPS class that uses a shield?

    Give up on GFs and never play them again?
    This game is dps pure and simple, they need to up the dps or delete the class. Only upping dps or a redesign of every single encounter in the game will do that. Since they aren't going to scrap the game and start over, upping the dps is the only viable choice.
  • alcibaides415bcalcibaides415bc Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Give GFs more control powers, we don't need more dps minus buffing a few skills that are really bad dps wise [anvil of doom]
  • goldmember7goldmember7 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 36
    edited February 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    This game is dps pure and simple, they need to up the dps or delete the class. Only upping dps or a redesign of every single encounter in the game will do that. Since they aren't going to scrap the game and start over, upping the dps is the only viable choice.

    We do not need yet another DPS class.
    • Make GF better at gaining and holding aggro
    • Making threat gain depend less on DPS dealt, it will make it harder for other classes to kite
    • Making the adds move faster makes it better to stand your ground than kite, and also harder for other classes to avoid taking damage
    • Give the GF better survivability so they can survive while tanking
    Then you have a good reason to bring a GF to a T2 without making them GWF with shields.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    This make sense to me.

    We do not need yet another DPS class.
    • Make GF better at gaining and holding aggro
    • Making threat gain depend less on DPS dealt, it will make it harder for other classes to kite
    • Making the adds move faster makes it better to stand your ground than kite, and also harder for other classes to avoid taking damage
    • Give the GF better survivability so they can survive while tanking
    Then you have a good reason to bring a GF to a T2 without making them GWF with shields.
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • warpetwarpet Member Posts: 1,969 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    We do not need yet another DPS class.
    • Make GF better at gaining and holding aggro
    • Making threat gain depend less on DPS dealt, it will make it harder for other classes to kite
    • Making the adds move faster makes it better to stand your ground than kite, and also harder for other classes to avoid taking damage
    • Give the GF better survivability so they can survive while tanking
    Then you have a good reason to bring a GF to a T2 without making them GWF with shields.

    this would not make them more wanted ppl would still take 2x cw to remove any need for good tank or healer gf needs to be a lot better aoe controler to
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    We do not need yet another DPS class.
    • Make GF better at gaining and holding aggro
    • Making threat gain depend less on DPS dealt, it will make it harder for other classes to kite
    • Making the adds move faster makes it better to stand your ground than kite, and also harder for other classes to avoid taking damage
    • Give the GF better survivability so they can survive while tanking
    Then you have a good reason to bring a GF to a T2 without making them GWF with shields.

    That's still only 0.01% of fights that you'd need then. Because most fights can just be aoe'ed down by good players with no kiting. Fights that need a kiter 2cnd of karru, last of fh, sort of last of sp. Everything else, just aoe aoe aoe. So even your solution falls short of making gf's wanted. All this solution would do is lock people out until yet a higher gs where they can take more hits and have more dps to get the bosses down with less kiting. This game is set up so you don't want to have a true tank with you in 99.99% of content.
  • evaliraevalira Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 245 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    How about an extra encounter slot so we have access to 4 encounters? This would increase tankiness and dps (depending on what you slotted.) Example - I could then slot Iron Warrior with the usual LS, ET, FS combo and gain 15% more dmg from temp hit points (if feated), more threat (pvp patch addition), and more surviability (more guard/ HP).

    Or the ability to switch between tank mode / dps mode, like a HR can switch between range/melee. I couldn't stand doing solo content with just a tank build so I have to be be conq spec (even if my dps is still lower than all the other classes except DC).

    I would also like to be able to run with the shield up (obviously draining the guard meter when used), thus increasing our poor mobility. I can't dodge any attacks and guard breaks too easily. I can only just get outside the red circles and I would say 30% of the time I am just outside of it and still get knockedback/stunned etc. Or my toon does an extra swing that I did not action or is stuck in a stupid slow animation and can't get away quick enough. I swear my ET animates again sometimes after casting it!

    Our DPS is just too low. Example - Monsters on Ice (winter festival), my 17k GF (at the time) was beaten by twice my score by a level 35 HR with just us two in the instance). That should never be happening (I have been playing GF since open beta so it's not like I don't know my class). Something needs to be done. Someone nearly half my level should never be able to out DPS me.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    evalira wrote: »
    How about an extra encounter slot so we have access to 4 encounters? This would increase tankiness and dps (depending on what you slotted.) Example - I could then slot Iron Warrior with the usual LS, ET, FS combo and gain 15% more dmg from temp hit points (if feated), more threat (pvp patch addition), and more surviability (more guard/ HP).

    Or the ability to switch between tank mode / dps mode, like a HR can switch between range/melee. I couldn't stand doing solo content with just a tank build so I have to be be conq spec (even if my dps is still lower than all the other classes except DC).

    I would also like to be able to run with the shield up (obviously draining the guard meter when used), thus increasing our poor mobility. I can't dodge any attacks and guard breaks too easily. I can only just get outside the red circles and I would say 30% of the time I am just outside of it and still get knockedback/stunned etc. Or my toon does an extra swing that I did not action or is stuck in a stupid slow animation and can't get away quick enough. I swear my ET animates again sometimes after casting it!

    Our DPS is just too low. Example - Monsters on Ice (winter festival), my 17k GF (at the time) was beaten by twice my score by a level 35 HR with just us two in the instance). That should never be happening (I have been playing GF since open beta so it's not like I don't know my class). Something needs to be done. Someone nearly half my level should never be able to out DPS me.

    Not crazy about an extra encounter slot, but maybe adjusting all damage up by 50-100% would make them useful to have along.
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Increasing damage would increase threat, so it would be a win win!


    My 48 GF with a 5000+ gs crits for 2k, my 24 HR crits for 4000k, my 22 TR crits for 2500... We just hit so poorly.
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • warpetwarpet Member Posts: 1,969 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    im think reworked tab could give them place in team
    for example they can make their tab when used to force everything close to gf to atack him and give him cc imunty and high life steel while working and he should recharge his tab by use of shiled and guard metar something like this could give gf control and suravbilty he lack in pve
  • goldmember7goldmember7 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 36
    edited February 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    That's still only 0.01% of fights that you'd need then. Because most fights can just be aoe'ed down by good players with no kiting. Fights that need a kiter 2cnd of karru, last of fh, sort of last of sp. Everything else, just aoe aoe aoe. So even your solution falls short of making gf's wanted. All this solution would do is lock people out until yet a higher gs where they can take more hits and have more dps to get the bosses down with less kiting. This game is set up so you don't want to have a true tank with you in 99.99% of content.
    I do not want the GF to replace or compete with the CW. I think that the current system where it is the role of the CW to AOE or punt adds is good, that is the role of a CW. I would rather see the CW work together with the GF for best result, for example by GF gathers the add on himself, then the CW burns them. Part of the problem now is that CW can use singularity so there is not even any need to generate threat to pile up the adds in one heap before murdering them.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • kharnykharny Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    The GWF is superior to the GF in every capacity albeit shield block... Just remove GFs and give GWF the ability to equip a shield then!


    That would be like having a another CW class called FCW ( Flying Control Wizard ) and then everyone just roles a FCW and can do everything better... Whats the point of having a CW anymore?


    GF deserves to be the best at his job! Or he needs to be brought in line with the GWF!

    lets start a petition!
    +1 for flying control wizard!



    oh i forgot i also had insight
    what if we made GFs gain dps dependant on how much damage and threath they currently hold? make it so the more they hurt the stronger they get, hulk smash, if you will
  • alcibaides415bcalcibaides415bc Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I do not want the GF to replace or compete with the CW. I think that the current system where it is the role of the CW to AOE or punt adds is good, that is the role of a CW. I would rather see the CW work together with the GF for best result, for example by GF gathers the add on himself, then the CW burns them. Part of the problem now is that CW can use singularity so there is not even any need to generate threat to pile up the adds in one heap before murdering them.


    I agree with this, however the problem is that One of our main control power (frontline surge) is counter synergistic for dungeon play. Sure, if you have crushing pin your party gets a 10% increase in damage when target is prone, but the knockback scatters the adds and disrupts the AoE burn. As a Conq GF, i have to use frontline surge as an initiator power, followed by EF and LS, but once battle has engaged, i never use it again because of the scattering. Unfortunately for the GF, there are no powers avaliable to them outside of EF and FS that actively controls the swarms of mobs that jump on them. We have single target controls, like bull rush or knee breaker or griffin wrath, BUT GFs need AOE control far more than single target, given our role as a CW substitute when there is no CW. GFs need an encounter or at will that prones/stuns/slows groups of mobs that isn't a detriment to team DPS.
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Lol sorry, my analogy was way off.....


    kharny wrote: »
    lets start a petition!
    +1 for flying control wizard!



    oh i forgot i also had insight
    what if we made GFs gain dps dependant on how much damage and threath they currently hold? make it so the more they hurt the stronger they get, hulk smash, if you will
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • kharnykharny Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Think about it! a wizard... THAT CAN FLY! we can have the arabian paragon path where he flies on a carpet, or the gandalf paragon path where he has an eagle! IT WILL BE GLORIOUS!!
  • thestaggythestaggy Member Posts: 1,102 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    Bugger it.

    Everyone talks about adding a Paladin to the game and everybody says the GF is rubbish. Fix? Turn the GF into a Paladin. Both essentially fill the same niche; that of a heavily armoured and armed protector.

    Give the Paladin GF small self heals, maybe one clutch party heal (with long cooldown so it does not make a DC redundant), a party defence buff (TRs buff party crit, why can't a GF buff party defence?), increase class tankiness (double the shield or set a threshold that certain hits don't affect shield meter, ie, below a 6k hit), buff damage output and speed up everything about the class (animations, cast times, etc).

    New tab feature: Tab is a toggle, with options of being a ''Divine Guardian'' in which the Paladin GF becomes more of a defensive buff rock or a ''Divine Warrior'' and so the Paladin GF becomes more of an ''I will smash your face'' warrior. Basically a similar mechanic to the HR, but instead of ranged/melee toggle it is a defensive buff/offensive warrior toggle.
    PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
  • masterjewstarmasterjewstar Member Posts: 563
    edited February 2014
    thestaggy wrote: »
    Bugger it.

    Everyone talks about adding a Paladin to the game and everybody says the GF is rubbish. Fix? Turn the GF into a Paladin. Both essentially fill the same niche; that of a heavily armoured and armed protector.

    Give the Paladin GF small self heals, maybe one clutch party heal (with long cooldown so it does not make a DC redundant), a party defence buff (TRs buff party crit, why can't a GF buff party defence?), increase class tankiness (double the shield or set a threshold that certain hits don't affect shield meter, ie, below a 6k hit), buff damage output and speed up everything about the class (animations, cast times, etc).

    New tab feature: Tab is a toggle, with options of being a ''Divine Guardian'' in which the Paladin GF becomes more of a defensive buff rock or a ''Divine Warrior'' and so the Paladin GF becomes more of an ''I will smash your face'' warrior. Basically a similar mechanic to the HR, but instead of ranged/melee toggle it is a defensive buff/offensive warrior toggle.

    That's actually not a bad idea, I like it and had one like it a while ago; but I doubt it would be implemented and if it was it would take several months anyway.

    wouldnt be much of a change either because most dungeons require kiting having this effect of buffing or smashing faces while kiting or tanking would make the gf more useful maybe not in endgame but really its only a small few who even view the gf as a not-possible class to play.
  • arinathosarinathos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Hey, Cryptic! You listening? Read Staggy's post please.
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Absolutely Genius!


    thestaggy wrote: »
    Bugger it.

    Everyone talks about adding a Paladin to the game and everybody says the GF is rubbish. Fix? Turn the GF into a Paladin. Both essentially fill the same niche; that of a heavily armoured and armed protector.

    Give the Paladin GF small self heals, maybe one clutch party heal (with long cooldown so it does not make a DC redundant), a party defence buff (TRs buff party crit, why can't a GF buff party defence?), increase class tankiness (double the shield or set a threshold that certain hits don't affect shield meter, ie, below a 6k hit), buff damage output and speed up everything about the class (animations, cast times, etc).

    New tab feature: Tab is a toggle, with options of being a ''Divine Guardian'' in which the Paladin GF becomes more of a defensive buff rock or a ''Divine Warrior'' and so the Paladin GF becomes more of an ''I will smash your face'' warrior. Basically a similar mechanic to the HR, but instead of ranged/melee toggle it is a defensive buff/offensive warrior toggle.
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • zargorius666zargorius666 Member Posts: 118 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    thestaggy wrote: »
    Bugger it.

    Everyone talks about adding a Paladin to the game and everybody says the GF is rubbish. Fix? Turn the GF into a Paladin. Both essentially fill the same niche; that of a heavily armoured and armed protector.

    Give the Paladin GF small self heals, maybe one clutch party heal (with long cooldown so it does not make a DC redundant), a party defence buff (TRs buff party crit, why can't a GF buff party defence?), increase class tankiness (double the shield or set a threshold that certain hits don't affect shield meter, ie, below a 6k hit), buff damage output and speed up everything about the class (animations, cast times, etc).

    New tab feature: Tab is a toggle, with options of being a ''Divine Guardian'' in which the Paladin GF becomes more of a defensive buff rock or a ''Divine Warrior'' and so the Paladin GF becomes more of an ''I will smash your face'' warrior. Basically a similar mechanic to the HR, but instead of ranged/melee toggle it is a defensive buff/offensive warrior toggle.

    Would love that, especially if there was a Blackguard paragon path. But it would be too sensible on their part...seeing the last event + the new box mounts my hopes are sliding downwards.
  • maroon89maroon89 Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I think an AOE snare component needs to be added to Enforced Threat.
  • spacejewspacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    From playing with lots of GF I can confidently say that there are excellent GF out there who make the class work. However, 90% of GF are mouth breathing morons who complain about doing low damage instead of concentrating on actually tanking.

    In a game where a lot of folks are over gearing instances and taking 5x CW or 5x GWF where do you think GF fits? Or DC's? Or HR's? Or TR's? None of them fit anywhere outside of tiny, tiny niche roles. It's all about AoE damage and control. Nothing actually needs to be 'tanked' in Neverwinter, so why do people roll a class that is meant for aggro control or tanking when neither role is ever actually required to succeed?

    If people ran more instances at 10k instead of 15-20k you'd see a bigger role for GF. So you can safely blame the community for the uselessness of the GF class. Most especially, you can blame the GF community for being bad in general. I can safely say this after running tons of PUG queue instances. Most tanks are quite simply awful. I know it isn't the class either, because I have seen some amazing at-level tanks hold aggro on everything.

    Don't hate the game, hate the players.
    MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
  • qutsemniequtsemnie Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I think GF should get some alternative skill uses while holding shift.

    For example, Lunging Strike. Currently cannot be pressed while blocking (as all encounters cannot be used by blocking). A criticism of GF is once they start to get combo'd with their block down they cannot easily dodge out of combos. I think Lunging Strike should plow you forward 30 feet while holding shift. IE it ignores targets in front of you and just plows through them. This would give GFs a relocate that isn't dependent on finding a target.

    I also think you should be able to use artifacts and use consumables while holding shift. I tried to make alternative key bindings for that but they don't work. The block of shift supersedes using consumables while blocking. You get out of a hard combo, get into block, and realize you can't use your consumables because a) you have no decent emergency relocates, and b) you can't afford to drop block.

    To address most of these an alternative suggestion I have is that for .5 seconds after releasing block you continue to block but can combo it with anything you want. Some people that prefer a really tight play may not like that as it means you have to turn off block early if you want it off at a precise time, but it would allow for some really cool combo play ducking in and out of block. This could be a feat: Your block persist for .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds after releasing block. You may use encounter powers and at-wills during this time. This way it would be optional.
  • zyphxxzyphxx Member Posts: 86
    edited February 2014
    thestaggy wrote: »
    Bugger it.

    Everyone talks about adding a Paladin to the game and everybody says the GF is rubbish. Fix? Turn the GF into a Paladin. Both essentially fill the same niche; that of a heavily armoured and armed protector.

    Give the Paladin GF small self heals, maybe one clutch party heal (with long cooldown so it does not make a DC redundant), a party defence buff (TRs buff party crit, why can't a GF buff party defence?), increase class tankiness (double the shield or set a threshold that certain hits don't affect shield meter, ie, below a 6k hit), buff damage output and speed up everything about the class (animations, cast times, etc).

    New tab feature: Tab is a toggle, with options of being a ''Divine Guardian'' in which the Paladin GF becomes more of a defensive buff rock or a ''Divine Warrior'' and so the Paladin GF becomes more of an ''I will smash your face'' warrior. Basically a similar mechanic to the HR, but instead of ranged/melee toggle it is a defensive buff/offensive warrior toggle.

    This is how it should be done, but sadly it would <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off more people than it would make happy. :( I think if they could find a way to make it in the form of a paragon path it would be easier for those who hate chance to swallow.
  • frariifrarii Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    GFs are fine, always been, they were the best designed class and the more balanced since day 1... and the problem is that, the game has evolved and GFs are still the same than in open beta, we gather,manage and hold agro just fine... the problem is in endgame that is not needed, when you have parties that just melt any amount of mobs in less than 3 seconds there is no need of any kind of tank...

    Reworking the dungeon mechanics is not realistic and wont happen, so the only option is to increase our movement speed and attack speed (seriously, just doubling the speed of cleave... tad
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