Another indication of the decline of the GF?

arinathos · January 2014

For the longest time, my primary and only character was a GF. Switched to a HR and was pleasantly suprised at how much more fun the game was. Significantly more damage, faster, and more versatile.

I've been perusing the auction house, and took a look at armor sets for the GF just for fun. Currently, even high level T2 sets are dirt cheap compared to what they were before Module 2 came out.

Is this an indication of how far the GF has gone down in value? If the market is right, it indicates there's a lot less demand for top tier GF items. Could this be because the GF diehards are already specced out, and newer people just aren't gravitating towards the class?

tang56 · January 2014

I mained a GF for the longest time, ever since beta. Mod 2 killed the class for me.

todesfaelle · January 2014

I think that's all the more reason to gear the class up now while our gear is dirt cheap. It's only a matter of time before the devs make the GF viable again.

They did so for GWF's, and look at how nice they are right now. I believe every class will be brought up to par in time, although things may be slow at first.

I see this as an opportunity more than a decline. Better invest now while stocks are cheap.

frarii · January 2014

The reason for DC/GF cheap gear is there is a lot less players with those classes but the gear drops at the same pace than any other class, so there is more supply than demand, easy as that.

arinathos · January 2014

frarii, that's true now... but it hasn't always been like that. It wasn't that long ago that the Timeless set was at least twice as expensive as it is currently, so something has changed with how many people are playing GFs on the server.

Todes, hope you're right. I still use my GF for professions and occasional tanking when my guild needs it, but compared to the HR, it takes me at least 2-3 times longer to take down an opponent in PvE. I'm not even sure that the current planned changes will help all that much. I think GF just needs a damage boost... not as much as a GWF or a TR, but enough to make it more respectable. Heck, I'm doing as much crit damage with an HR DAILY (aimed shot) as with a GF encounter (Anvil of Doom) that refreshes every 20 some seconds...

kolbe11 · January 2014

January 29, 2014 - Helm of the Timeless Hero - 250,000 AD
June 16, 2013 - Helm of the Timeless Hero - 850,000 AD

I had a SS from then... Stalwart Helm was still 1.1m btw.

Sure, some is supply & demand; Some of it is most GF's are already geared and some of it is due to a slower base of new GF players picking up the class. While the first two can be explained rather easily, the lack of GF's even available in LFG for FH, SP or VT is quite apparent.

So where have all the GF's gone and why?

Well, we're still here. I think just about every "die-hard" GF is still around, but I think most of us have relegated our GF's to the ranks of mule and banker as the class is just no fun right now. EVERY.SINGLE. job a GF could do well is just not good enough anymore.

I say this not because I hate my GF, quite the contrary, I have loved playing GF since 2011 in this game. However, the class is just 6th best in the game right now. A spare tire if you will. Let's hope the Devs follow through with their changes on preview and let's also hope those changes are enough to win the hearts of GF's back on to the battlefield.

arinathos · January 2014

Amen, Kolbe.

Maybe they should have kept the old Stalwart set around to offset the inferior damage compared to other classes. God, I really miss my old Stalwart set...

kharny · January 2014

shoot me down if im wrong but right now a lot of classes are basically useless in many aspects of the game. TR doesnt get viable in dungeons until after 14000 gs when they get a niche boss killer role, CW gets killed by everything in PvP, GF is the least seen class, even more so than cleric for me personally simply because they help the team more than the cleric does with most of their encounters. If you have a look, a lot of the GF's abilities either are very boring or help your teammates, which is why it is less appealling to play one. Playing a class with a multitude of viable abilities and fun mechanics is a lot more appealing than playing somethings thats not. I myself find GF a hoot and a half even if i think the mark mechanic is terrible, but thats not to say that other people find GF's low dps and constant turtling fun. For me it might just be a welcome change from constantly kiting around with a CW, but until GF becomes a bit more welcoming to new comers and to veterans alike it isnt going to see more play. Right now its fairly viable in both pvp and pve, maybe weaker in some aspects to the GWF but it certainly has its niche

sorry rambled on there for a bit

oh also a quick edit for ariaonthos, i would love to see an ability that links you up to an enemy, and that enemy takes 35% of the damge you take, at the cost of not being able to deal any damage to it. I think that GF would gain a great niche as an add tanker in dungeons, maybe throw it onto mark or something? make it so when you hit them they take the damage but the effect goes away

trapublican · January 2014

MoD 2 killed them by giving the IV path to GWFs, well done devs.

chocobofarmer · January 2014

GWF frontline does ~3x more damage than GF frontline, after you consider broken gash, higher crit chance+weapon master crit chance, higher base weapon damage. Hallmark of GF, mark 8% damage taken increase from threatening rush, given to GWF and also does more damage and allows for animation canceling for gwf. HR is far superior (yes I mean far superior) at kiting because split shot is like 5 target taunt per cast. DC and GWF have always been more tanky than gf, and dc's can take a lot of damage just by walking ahead of the team by a few seconds, and gwf can aggro a lot due to having their dps almost doubled, which btw wasn't intentional, gwf was fixed by a bug, and the only way gf might be fixed with cryptic's sad spreadsheets and balance ideas is if they accidentally quadrupled conqueror power bonus.

odd111out · January 2014

I've farmed a lot of Frozen Heart since Mod 2, DC-CW-GF-GWF Sent and Destroyer. And I will say that GF are still the better tank as far as agro management goes. A GWF can add tank, but it takes much longer to ball the add or peel away something that's agroed another teammate. So there are some situations where a GF is preferable as a tank to tank-GWF. That being said, GF are near unviable in MC's final boss and completely unwanted in VT. Which is where the class is getting killed in PvE content. What's the point in doing all those Dread Ring Dailies if you can't go to VT unless your Guild takes pity? Part of that is the surprising number of things that go through Block even when your Shield meter is still up. Another part is the new boss mechanic where there are pauses and the floor gets strafed with flame. The new Soulforged has helped quite a bit. And needless to say, casket clearing.

tang56 · January 2014

odd111out wrote: »

I've farmed a lot of Frozen Heart since Mod 2, DC-CW-GF-GWF Sent and Destroyer. And I will say that GF are still the better tank as far as agro management goes. A GWF can add tank, but it takes much longer to ball the add or peel away something that's agroed another teammate. So there are some situations where a GF is preferable as a tank to tank-GWF. That being said, GF are near unviable in MC's final boss and completely unwanted in VT. Which is where the class is getting killed in PvE content. What's the point in doing all those Dread Ring Dailies if you can't go to VT unless your Guild takes pity? Part of that is the surprising number of things that go through Block even when your Shield meter is still up. Another part is the new boss mechanic where there are pauses and the floor gets strafed with flame. The new Soulforged has helped quite a bit. And needless to say, casket clearing.

Yep. Oh, there's a casket filled with a fairly strong add that you have to interact with to prevent it spawning? Cool. I can do that. There's four of them in my quarter of the room? Hahaha! I only have decent gap closer! Better enjoy those wights.

sslothzz · January 2014

i personally don't need a GF to build high DPS values. i'd be more than pleased if our role as a tank would diversify and improve.
like, adding more buffs to our mitigation, and debuffs for enemies. i would love to see a GF able to hold aggro while not doing damage at all. i know this sounds crazy considering that aggro in this game follows DPS numbers. but it is the initial role a tank plays in the group. heck, playing a GF now requires TOO MUCH SKILL, i can barely manage to keep the group safe, mobs crowded and at the same time stay alive. currently GF needs some loving from the devs in terms of funnier skill composition, aggro accumulation and survivability.

i have leveled a second toon, CW, and all i can say - it is just much more fun to play. i have different loadouts and sets for different situations. i can maximise my performance adjusting to the group composition and its skill level. i can go full cc, buff the group (what i think a GF should do), debuff the mobs (what i think a GF would be nice to be able to do), and organize a nice freezing party (love how frozen mobs crack). or i can go full DPS, topping the paingiver chart. whatever. wizard is capable of many things. i even get immovable object perk at the end of events sometimes (warms my heart).

this shadowmantle module has ruined GFs. GWFs have acquired some very nice abilities from GF tree, but sadly it hasn't worked out vice versa. even before december GWFs were better at eating the red. now they are unstoppable in all ways. while groups still sometimes want a GF in their party (i see LFM GF for Karru/ToS/VT or whatever) - it is just too difficult to be a good GF now. mainly because their role in party is uncertain. somehow a tank, not a paingiver, not a healer, somehow a controller - it is just not enough in current setting. ofc, one day devs might spread their blessing upon the class and give us some nice rework. ofc. but maybe - maybe - it will be too late already.

or you can disregard that wall of text above and create a poll to ask for old good stalwart bulwark set to be brought back. i will launch the botnet and vote AW YIIIIIS 100 times

*a joke. almost*

overddrive · January 2014

arinathos wrote: »

For the longest time, my primary and only character was a GF. Switched to a HR and was pleasantly suprised at how much more fun the game was. Significantly more damage, faster, and more versatile.

I've been perusing the auction house, and took a look at armor sets for the GF just for fun. Currently, even high level T2 sets are dirt cheap compared to what they were before Module 2 came out.

Is this an indication of how far the GF has gone down in value? If the market is right, it indicates there's a lot less demand for top tier GF items. Could this be because the GF diehards are already specced out, and newer people just aren't gravitating towards the class?

Buy low sell high, this is the time to stock up on gf gear. NWO changes so much that eventually GF will be at the top of the rotation again and that gear will be worth a ton.

warpet · January 2014

chocobofarmer wrote: »

GWF frontline does ~3x more damage than GF frontline, after you consider broken gash, higher crit chance+weapon master crit chance, higher base weapon damage. Hallmark of GF, mark 8% damage taken increase from threatening rush, given to GWF and also does more damage and allows for animation canceling for gwf. HR is far superior (yes I mean far superior) at kiting because split shot is like 5 target taunt per cast. DC and GWF have always been more tanky than gf, and dc's can take a lot of damage just by walking ahead of the team by a few seconds, and gwf can aggro a lot due to having their dps almost doubled, which btw wasn't intentional, gwf was fixed by a bug, and the only way gf might be fixed with cryptic's sad spreadsheets and balance ideas is if they accidentally quadrupled conqueror power bonus.

it is not ture frontline dose not do 3 times more damage on gwf my instigator gwf have 5,2k k while conq gf have 4.8k think so how is this 3 times more?

also cw is what ruined gf not gwf they removed any needs for tanks or supports u do not even need dc anymore if got op geared cw in team i done fh,karru,tos, and all this with no dc and had 2 team members badly geared they had free t1 pvp gear with rank 5 and lesser weapon enchants

mconosrep · January 2014

overddrive wrote: »

Buy low sell high, this is the time to stock up on gf gear. NWO changes so much that eventually GF will be at the top of the rotation again and that gear will be worth a ton.

Given that the GF is now occupying the bottom position that GWF were in for most of the game, you can hardly be wrong in that things can only improve.

However, I doubt very much that GFs will ever be the most sought after class given that the CW has been the top class by far since Open Beta....

chocobofarmer · January 2014

warpet, gwf has much higher crit chance, base damage, and deep gash+vorpal will more than double damage on crits.

chemboy613 · February 2014

I love GF, but GWF does better DPS, and unless there are uncontrollable mobs, CW does better CC, now parties can be so over geared they just DPS everything...

Recently i sold an ancient shilled for 70k almost made me cry.

I will play a lot of GF when they get buffed, but as long as the dungeon design is "throw 20 mobs at you at once" it will be a CW/GWF game.

The downside here is that once you are geared you are fighting 2+ encounters at time so GWF/CW is just more efficient.

I hope the new content is much more difficult and has stronger mobs and less trash. MC was a step in the right direction IMO.

warpet · February 2014

chemboy613 wrote: »

I love GF, but GWF does better DPS, and unless there are uncontrollable mobs, CW does better CC, now parties can be so over geared they just DPS everything...

Recently i sold an ancient shilled for 70k almost made me cry.

I will play a lot of GF when they get buffed, but as long as the dungeon design is "throw 20 mobs at you at once" it will be a CW/GWF game.

The downside here is that once you are geared you are fighting 2+ encounters at time so GWF/CW is just more efficient.

I hope the new content is much more difficult and has stronger mobs and less trash. MC was a step in the right direction IMO.

even there is a lot harder if u do not stack cw since they can easy interupt valindra

zacazu · February 2014

GWF Role: Damage Dealer
Secondary Defender
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter
GF Role: Defender
Secondary Controller
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Guardian_Fighter

The primary function of gwf is damage, it is only fair that the gwf do more damage than gf.

ps: The primary function of the cw is not damage, it is the secondary ... As control for the gf ... is a hint ...

chemboy613 · February 2014

about MC- one CW can use MoC and do just fine, so you only need one.

If you have a GWF you can use slam every other (say the chokes) and that's no problem.

and if you have a high enough DPS, you don't need any interrupts.

I agree CW primary function is control. I run a control bar and use both control pets, but that said, debuff and damage is important too, as dead ads are controlled

zacazu · February 2014

ok ... but what I mean is that a fair requirement is: gf has control proportional the cw damage .

is here that must be the focus, unless they want to change the gf concept (and I do not object to it).

nwnghost · February 2014

I really don't think gear prices are a good indicator.

Even when GWF pre mod-1 as well as post mod-1 was an unwanted class altogether in PvE (and GF/TR/CW dominated PvP), the prices of GWF gear (any type, even the crappy sets) were always higher than even CW sets.

Back then, people explained it to me as "because we don't take a GWF with us, we can keep the price of GWF gear high, because they cannot get it anywhere else"

Although I don't think that explanation really holds water (how many GFs do you see in CN? And yet back then GF CN gear was still the cheapest of all), I think there is a perception among market leaders that certain classes' items should for one reason or another always be more pricy than that of others.

frarii · February 2014

Again in open market (and this is pure open market) prices are determined by supply and demand, KISS! (keep it simple stupid!)

kharny · February 2014

i just got a mulhorand blade for 6400 on my GF, happy for myself but sad for the class, althought at the moment i think that its just a decline because of the module, maybe next module we will get some buffs and everything will be gusta

katbozejziemi · February 2014

Want me to remind you about the time you could have bought GWF T2 bracers for 20K? Comparing today prices to prices from June is ridiculous.

sslothzz · February 2014

zacazu wrote: »

GWF Role: Damage Dealer
Secondary Defender
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter
GF Role: Defender
Secondary Controller
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Guardian_Fighter

The primary function of gwf is damage, it is only fair that the gwf do more damage than gf.

ps: The primary function of the cw is not damage, it is the secondary ... As control for the gf ... is a hint ...

Just a hint: why take a GF in a party (primary defender and secondary controller) when you can take another GWF (much better tank + high DPS) or another CW (much better control + high DPS)?
As long as GWF retains more survivability than GF, and CW generates more threat than GF - there is no need for a GF at all.

kharny · February 2014

This is completely true, but why have a CW and a GWF when you can have a single GF?

chocobofarmer · February 2014

kharny wrote: »

This is completely true, but why have a CW and a GWF when you can have a single GF?

Because gwf and cw are much better.

loboguild · February 2014

sslothzz wrote: »

Just a hint: why take a GF in a party (primary defender and secondary controller) when you can take another GWF (much better tank + high DPS) or another CW (much better control + high DPS)?
As long as GWF retains more survivability than GF, and CW generates more threat than GF - there is no need for a GF at all.

True. In my eyes the difference in the TAB abilities is too much to overcome for the GF currently. GWF can add damage and tankiness through Unstoppable, GF adds little control and no defense with Mark.

The only reason to take a GF over a GWF is threat generation, which is simply not needed in the current environment minus FH.

zacazu · February 2014

Come to a point :

Be defender - in gf sense - is not just " stand thumping." It's you be the one fixed reference point in the battle from which the logistics of the party will be implemented ( gwf flanks , cw advanced position ; rogue behind , dc with shields / healing ; RANGER WITH SPLIT SHOT ) . In other words, you will be a "living singularity " .

I'm not inventing , read the description of the class.

The gwf have the best resources for this role ? No. The class is in evidence today because of the damage (which is their primary role ) and yet if we speak of gwf above a certain gear . I 'm leveling one cw now and it's sad to see the gwf trying to keep the fight collectively . I need to control the group , save the HR and protect the poor dc . What is different if the group has a gf ... which does not mean to say that the class is great . 'M NOT SAYING THAT . But the culprit is gwf as reverse the order of events , and especially ignore the function of each . The gwf is simply a class that " works now " , being by definition independent of gf to survive . if gwf depended on a defender , how could it be a secondary defender?

What is demanded is that the gf " work."

Another indication of the decline of the GF?

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