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PvP now is nothing more than regeneration/sustain wars
ifthir
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 281 Bounty Hunter
Qualifers:
I've been here since before game opened to public
Statement:
PvP now is nothing more than sustain/regen wars. Last night we did an in-house guild PvP. The team we faced had 2 gwf's, a perma-stealth TR, an HR and a DC. Literally after 45minutes plus the game was barely half-over. No one had double digit kills that I recall and myself and several others only had 1 death while at least one of the opposing GWF's had 0 deaths.
Typically the scenario would go like this - whittle down enemy to near death, their soulforge goes off = lots of HP back + regen items are pumping, then they pop their artifact and a PvP pot and presto back to full health. All they then have to do is survive 2+ minutes with full health till the artifact and soulforge procs refresh. If it was a GWF they would just run away so fast you cant catch them (I have all dark 8's for + movement in utility slots) and grab a PvP pot from the environment to add on to it. You basically have to burst damage + cc an enemy when they are near death now or they will survive. Unfortunately, with deflect + soulforge + artifacts it can still be extremely difficult to take down a well-played enemy when they are near death.
I can't imagine many players are enjoying high-end PvP right now (probably why there are so few premade vs premade fights these days) with it being nothing more than a regen/sustain war.
Is this the vision you have for PvP Cryptic? If this is your vision, what is your vision as the paper to the sentinel gwf + high regen + high deflect + artifact + soulforge rock?
To the players, are you enjoying this type of PvP? Maybe I am golding memories but it seemed more fun a few months ago when people were actually dying in PvP. Or do you prefer these matches that wind up taking longer than CN runs?
I've been here since before game opened to public
Statement:
PvP now is nothing more than sustain/regen wars. Last night we did an in-house guild PvP. The team we faced had 2 gwf's, a perma-stealth TR, an HR and a DC. Literally after 45minutes plus the game was barely half-over. No one had double digit kills that I recall and myself and several others only had 1 death while at least one of the opposing GWF's had 0 deaths.
Typically the scenario would go like this - whittle down enemy to near death, their soulforge goes off = lots of HP back + regen items are pumping, then they pop their artifact and a PvP pot and presto back to full health. All they then have to do is survive 2+ minutes with full health till the artifact and soulforge procs refresh. If it was a GWF they would just run away so fast you cant catch them (I have all dark 8's for + movement in utility slots) and grab a PvP pot from the environment to add on to it. You basically have to burst damage + cc an enemy when they are near death now or they will survive. Unfortunately, with deflect + soulforge + artifacts it can still be extremely difficult to take down a well-played enemy when they are near death.
I can't imagine many players are enjoying high-end PvP right now (probably why there are so few premade vs premade fights these days) with it being nothing more than a regen/sustain war.
Is this the vision you have for PvP Cryptic? If this is your vision, what is your vision as the paper to the sentinel gwf + high regen + high deflect + artifact + soulforge rock?
To the players, are you enjoying this type of PvP? Maybe I am golding memories but it seemed more fun a few months ago when people were actually dying in PvP. Or do you prefer these matches that wind up taking longer than CN runs?
Post edited by ifthir on
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Comments
The amount of survivability available in PvP at the moment can get a bit ridiculous. Not being able to kill anyone and having a complete stalemate is a bit more of a boring concept than what it could be, but that's what is available right now and it is available to everyone, so we should all make the best of it.
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
Some ppl also heal up so much due to regen that it has become a joke to even have healers in PVP - most players heal more due to their regen and items than due to a healer anyways. I never understood why there is a stat like regen that is ticking even in combat. In other games I played before regen abilities stopped during combat.
And that PVP artifact has become annoying also. At higher levels ppl almost get full health with it - yeah temp hitpoints drain away, but yet they have enough time to use it for their advantage.
All in all it shows even more that everything they design for this game is focussed only on PVE and PVP gets more broken with everything they add and change.
- Disable all runes OR encants and assign a score for each item (rank 7, 8, 9, greater, perfect, etc.)
- Disable bonuses artifacts OR assign a score depending on the level
- All with the same speed riding
- More maps
- More battle modes (1x1, deathmatch, etc.)
so only the players would fight only with the gear char + + build team and foremost FINGER and a bit of clear strategy! each class with its advantages and disadvantages! and honestly after taking into account the return diminisshing ranks above 9 are only for OSTENTATION STAFF!
ps:. excuse me for my poor english
You need a CW to kill things quickly or nothing dies and the game doesn't move. You need more burst/prone locking than before, which really just boils down to more team coordination in voice chat than was previously required to kill someone.
I still find PvP enjoyable in Mod 2, but if you know it's going to be a tough match, it could average 1hr 15minutes or so, especially when DCs are around to save everyone and prolong fights.
Just add a HR and GWF's are killed very easy. ahhh and soulforged has an weakness, just kill it when dead are returning to life, they have no defense till stant up so... just kill it again, i usualy keep a skill just for it need to hit 5k+
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Then there's the TR one-shotting people from stealth in pugs, but it's another issue.
WHAT?!
The problem with that snark logic is that if a system is balanced, one cannot do one without being junk at the other.
Either you deal damage and have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> defense/sustain....or you have great sustain/defense but deal <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage.
Currently characters can do both, some moreso than others.(GWF/TR)
I see a GWF running around chasing my CW through 3 other people hitting him, not really doing a lot to him I shouldn't expect him to drop 10k-12k crit bombs on my face with knockdowns to boot, but they do. Good times.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
This assumes similar gear levels of course, if you're 9-10k and the gwf is 14k you are going to get killed but that's pretty much any class.
Regardless of the class, they stack regeneration.
Now, it's quite obvious that if you put tank builds vs tank builds, it results in a long fight. May be shifting to hybrid builds in premades could help you guys making it less boring.
In pug PvP, i noticed an improvement. People survive more, and considering that in module 1 it was a 1-2-3 shot fest, it's balanced now. Never have problems with soulforged users or artifacts. Just make the fights longer and more interesting.
If i get killed cause the opponent gets back to life with SF or uses an artifact, it's not a problem. I have my armor enchant and artifacts, so it's just fair.
An assassin type has one main role: to be efficient at delivering killing blows, every class has a build that is towards that, high burst & long cooldowns (useless now). I am sry but i wont spend 45 min hitting a target dummy for nothing.
All this qq imo is correct and it should continue till something is going to change.
But this game has alot of loose ends and pvp is just one of them: loot drops, dungeon rewards, zen market prices, marks, companion upgrade prices just to name a few. I really wish all the teams to rise up to the graphic team level: rly good looking maps, animations(best animation i;ve ever seen) and effects.
This is a great suggestion IMO.
Actually I've played 2-3 of these 40 mins Pm vs PM matches, they aren't a hyperbole at all. It's not only about very tanky regen builds either, it's mostly about the fact that in a PM vs PM usually all 3 points are continuously contested, so no team makes any points at all much of the time.
These matches are VERY tiring and makes your hands hurt lol. So limiting the time seems to be good IMO.
As for artifacts, SF, regen and pots in PvP... these things made my CW playable basically. Too bad the others have them as well :P
It's not an uncommon thing to see when people flock to "survival builds" in PvP -- traditionally, survival is always very important in PvP no matter what the game, what the genre. However, when too much of the playerbase decide its a good idea (the only viable idea) to go overboard in terms of survival, that usually indicates a problem in the opposite direction.
If so many people flock to tanky builds, that means people are at their "last resort". What this means, is that generally, the damage/CC factor of the game is so devastating and deadly, that every other build is turned obsolete, and it becomes unrealistic to expect any kind of effect (even situationally) with it. Hence, only a tanky build provides enough life-span to at least try push a key or two to make you feel like you're doing something.
Therefore, it is usually an indicator of a failure in balance -- not necessarily between classes or powers, but rather (and more likely) a failure to balance the mechanics of defense vs. offense. In PvP, people min/max builds. That's to be expected. But if the min/maxing that effects offense/defense provides too high a level of synergy, as compared to a more 'casual build', then that directly leads to the said problem.
So, it all comes down to this.
What this means, is that the 'balance' you people want is hardly achieved by just nerfing or buffing a class or a power. What this means, is that each and every one of you need to accept the hard fact that the aspect you are most proud of, and love about your own character, may be one of what's contributing to the problem mentioned above.
- Do you love your 20k crit ranged attack that one-shots average gear grade players?
- Do you love how your tanky character can wield over 10% lifesteal with average 3~4k damage per attack, coupled with an over 10% regeneration efficiency, so a little bit of defensive maneuvering and you basically roll back on all of your HP lost?
- Do you love how you can control someone back-to-back and never give them a chance to fire back until all of your powers are on cooldown?
Well ALL of that, will ultimately lead people to figure that its impossible to compete with any other build option, and therefore, will cause them to also roll an FotM tank/regen/lifesteal build.
Everyone is an accomplice to this crime. That's the reason why people cry of balance, but in reality there's no real balancing done ever. People actually hate balance. I've never seen anyone who'd agree to seriously nerf what they love so much about their own character. They talk of change and balance, and the moment it involves themselves, they turn defensive and walk away.
Since no one wants to sacrifice themselves a little bit for the "greater good", there is no "greater good" to be achieved.
Personally, I'm an adapter. I don't really care how developers change my favorite class. If something gets nerfed, then I simply adapt to that fact, so in my case, if it brings better balance and more fun to the game where more people can enjoy, then I'd not object against it. However, I cannot say the same for other people, and I seriously doubt much of them would want to see such a 'bigger picture.'
They like their tanky regen buillds. They don't really care that it makes the game frustrating. As long as they have the "Buwahahahaah I love being near-unkillable!" mindset, nothing's going to be changed.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I was in a 5v3 match the other day (being on the 3 side) and used the Lantern and my Path of Blades to take out 2 guys within seconds. (we lost)
I'm no killing machine but that little win made the enjoyment much more for me.
I love killing someone in PVP to see them jump up with health again, just so i can kill them again seconds later.
The key is trying different abilities. If i stuck with the same 3 encounter powers for that fight, I might not have improved myself.
Stand your Ground NW-DNBHK74ML
Bingo, give this man a cigar/coconut/whatever else he prefers.
There is a problem, in the opposite direction. Time to kill in this game is far too short, which renders PvP far too shallow and unsatisfying, leaving it as a sustainability arms race and gear wars.
It's a shame, I usually love me some PvP in MMOs, and I love the the control system in NW. However, it's really not as much fun as it should be, in the current state.
This guy has nailed the essence of it nothing much more to add really, very good written.
Myself i love the long fights compared to the short kill everything in sight and be killed from some afar in 2 big hits while hanging in the air :-).
A tight fight with good players with good gear where you actually have to think and change strat during a game is far more rewarding then fast kills imho that is..
Regardless, that doesn't invalidate anything else in my post. I stopped playing before Module 2 went live because even then it stopped being enjoyable to me.
I think another issue is that even if you wear gear that is the current regen survival fad, you still pump out stupid damage. That's where you get issues with GWF and such when people are like "I can't kill them" but at the same time, these GWF's and other classes are still hitting for 10k, 12k, 14k, etc. It's out of whack.
Sometimes I think about dropping my "youth" gear and just going full balls to the wall power/crit to see if it even makes a difference. I can already still die in 2-3 seconds anyway heh.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
You're completely right. I've been saying for months that 12k+ / greater enchantment pvp was pretty brutal and not fun for months and yet people are still surprised because of these unkillable builds. Such builds aren't fun to play, but being permastunned to death by GFs, GWFs, or one-shot by rogues isn't interesting either.
I loved pvp when everyone had around 9k GS. Now it's just for dailies and the pvp artifacts, because i hate the current state of pvp. Way too mich cc and damage everywhere.