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calous78
Banned Users Posts: 95
Hey Everyone!
Some friends and I have acquired a website and plan on running a PvP Ladder. We have many ideas but we would like some feedback from the community about what rules and regulations you feel should be in place.
Essentially how the site will work is you create an account, create a team, or join an existing team, then sign up for a ladder and you can begin challenging your way up!
Things we need feedback on are as follows:
-Ranking system. How we determine how people move up or down the ladder. Points per match? An experience point based system, or straight 1 to 1 challenges i.e. "My team beat your team I take your spot you take mine".
-Team rules: Rules governing team composition, and things of that sort, for example:
1) Required team composition?
2) How many members per team? (we are thinking small teams would be best, perhaps 5, 7, 10 members)
-Match Rules: what is allowed and not allowed in a match, for example
1) No gear swapping outside of player spawn
2) No potions allowed with the exception of the PvP specific Health Potions
-Tiers! This is something we would like to implement so that everyone can compete on fairly even ground. Tiers (separate ladders essentially) would be based on things like Gear (not gear score but enchant ranks, experience etc). Basically we just need a way to rank individual players and teams so that everyone can enjoy competitive matches.
Our goal here is to create a dynamic, competitive, and persistent PvP League consisting of MANY teams.
Lets PLEASE keep this thread on topic, and its contents HELPFUL and CONSTRUCTIVE!
Thank you so much in advance for your input!
Some friends and I have acquired a website and plan on running a PvP Ladder. We have many ideas but we would like some feedback from the community about what rules and regulations you feel should be in place.
Essentially how the site will work is you create an account, create a team, or join an existing team, then sign up for a ladder and you can begin challenging your way up!
Things we need feedback on are as follows:
-Ranking system. How we determine how people move up or down the ladder. Points per match? An experience point based system, or straight 1 to 1 challenges i.e. "My team beat your team I take your spot you take mine".
-Team rules: Rules governing team composition, and things of that sort, for example:
1) Required team composition?
2) How many members per team? (we are thinking small teams would be best, perhaps 5, 7, 10 members)
-Match Rules: what is allowed and not allowed in a match, for example
1) No gear swapping outside of player spawn
2) No potions allowed with the exception of the PvP specific Health Potions
-Tiers! This is something we would like to implement so that everyone can compete on fairly even ground. Tiers (separate ladders essentially) would be based on things like Gear (not gear score but enchant ranks, experience etc). Basically we just need a way to rank individual players and teams so that everyone can enjoy competitive matches.
Our goal here is to create a dynamic, competitive, and persistent PvP League consisting of MANY teams.
Lets PLEASE keep this thread on topic, and its contents HELPFUL and CONSTRUCTIVE!
Thank you so much in advance for your input!
Post edited by calous78 on
0
Comments
^What this will bring.
If you can somehow come up with a system that avoids it, then props to you.
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
I agree 110 %
This ladder cannot guarantee people will not armor swap or use potions or any of that.
I think it's a given that will always happen until PW / Cryptic finds a way to lock gear, or prevent zoning into PvP without PvP specific gear on that has no enchant slots.
Also, Team play brings bias against other players who excel but may not have teams. There needs to be an option for single player totals. This current set up of Team play excludes players who have no set teams... If you want to gauge PvP as a whole, more than just 5 teams must be included.
I know this is a Feedback thread so here is my feedback.
* Separate Team and Single Player ladders.
* How will guaranteed totals be done ? How can one be sure of results being totaled ? Maybe a program in the background that can record kills and deaths and assist from the combat log file ? Some coders out there could whip something like that up pretty quickly.
* Who has final say on what totals are tallied ? Who is involved ? and to what degree ? Bias can cause some issues here so there should be a wide range of involvement of people from PvE heros to PvP superstars.
I don't know man, we have been tossing this idea around for quite a while, and MANY of the top PvPers have expressed a lot of interest.
We are going to do it. The site will be up as soon as we get the rest of the rules sorted out. We would love it if you and your guild would participate Scroto, but if you don't want to, thats fine as well
Lets also remember this kind of thing is done a lot on console games. There are dozens and dozens of very active sites out there just like the one we are going to make. The only difference is those games are usually FPS games and this is an MMO. I am fairly confident we can make it work. We have many ideas in place, we would just like more feedback from the community.
Great Feedback! Thanks for taking the time to post!
As far as gear swapping, this will be against the rules. Yes we can't really enforce this, however its VERY easy to catch people doing this. Video proof could be submitted to site moderators (we will have several from several different Guilds/Teams) And those @handles will be banned form the ladder indefinitely.
As far as your second point. End of match SS's will be required to be submitted by BOTH teams after every match and before results are made official. These SS's will include all the information you listed above.
Multiple ladders based on Skill/Gear are defiantly something we WANT to do. Unless we have alot of initial interest this will not be something we will be able to do right off the bat. The way we would like to place people in the ladders (and yes people will be able to cheat) is via a gear score system based off Item Enchants and Artifact Levels, I think most would agree this would be the fairest way to do this, as actual gear doesn't matter, its the level of enchants that determine the gear level of your Character.
Only thoughts are to make it rainbow comp /: don't want any troll groups.
The rest of the player base simply don't care or they don't have the strength to. There are only a few guilds that can pull off a legit premade team atm. Some guild can have more than 2 teams depending on actual membership.
I do a rough estimate in my head if a system like you visioned ever come out, we gonna have roughly 15 teams available throughout the server.( Providing all geared/skilled players actually decided to be on a team and participate) Reality there will be more than 15 teams but none of those would be nearly as competitive as this 15, they would simply get destroyed like 1000-100 or worse. Let say each team allow to have 1 or 2 extra member on the bench. Ultimately we are talking about a ladder that consist only 100 players.
And yeah Rainbow comp is pretty much a must. Otherwise there are just too much troll comp possibility. Or you can have a choice to have 2 members on one particular class only. But if you go that way you kind of need to borrow the ban pick process from LOL because some comp just counter the other too much. The best case should be just strictly demand all team to be rainbow.
If you want your ranking to be actually mathematically sound, you can't just use any system you make up. Or, in fact, pretty much any system which attempts to do a linear ranking of teams that haven't played each other. Team quality is not transitive, that is to say, A beats B, B beats C does NOT imply A beats C. Any system that assumes this is pretty much just a randomized ranking that is dependent on order of play. (Think about it, rock/paper/scissors have a contest and one gets first place means the score system is busted).
Yes, lots of very entrenched games use these types of systems, but traditions that make no sense should be ended.
Is there a better solution? I think just having a 2D grid that keeps count of every team's wins over every other teams.
So for example:
cats
dogs
fish
cats
-
0
1
dogs
1
-
1
fish
0
0
-
This system does not lose information and cannot be 'rigged' like other systems. It allows teams to play against each other however many times they want without lop-siding the score keeping.
If you say, but we want to rank so there can be a NUMBER 1 TOP TEAM, well, reality says no. Using this grid, anyone can still use whatever dumb-*** broken math they want to say who is best, but there won't be any lost information or lies in the grid itself. The facts will stand for themselves.
What we have are basically 2 options.
1) An EXP option, where EXP is awarded for challenging, accepting, winning, losing, ect.
2) An ELO system.
Both systems are integrated into our site already, we simply need to decide which one would work best for a MMO PvP league format.
Either of these systems will create an even playing field, where players are all ranked evenly at the beginning, but after alittle activity teams will be sorted properly on the ladder.
After a short time separate ladders can be created based on how well teams are doing on the initial ladder. This will put people and teams onto ladders where they have a chance to be competitive against all other teams on that ladder.
All Constructive Feedback Welcome!
I like the idea of non-roided out toons with pots. Honestly though, I really think if its going to work you just need to let the game be the game. If players want to swap, let them, if they want to pot up, let them.
The objective is to determine who is better at playing the game correct? Well pots ARE the game crytpic gave us.
On top of that, Group comp should be limited to a MAX of 2 of any class. So a team could have 2 Trs 2 GWF 1 CW for example.
Then I would make each team post a list of 5-10 players any of which could play for that team.
I would ALSO make this NOT a ladder competition but also a pvp "Season" like everybody plays everybody (round robin style) so people dont feel like its wasted if they lose in the first round. Post a schedule.
For rewards, keys are always really easy and universal. Could also offer up R9s+ enchants.
IMO each team should have a "buy in" so they actually care about the competition and dont just phase out.
I am pretty sure each guild could easily come up with 10 players to throw on the roster. This type of thing needs to be spread around in game.
Its been my experience forum posts die fast. In typing this, the half-life of this forum is already come and gone.
Well any single rating figure that attempts to condense the entire set of information will be by definition an approximation and so not 'mathematically sound'.
However, in practice an ELO-style system is usually good enough...
A resounding NO to this. If we allow pots, eventually everyone will be using similar pots and the playing field will once again be levelled, except now you've effectively wasted people's AD and time.
I'm fairly certain armour swapping was not an intended pvp strategy and simply makes combat annoying.
If your team needs to load up on pots and armour swap for a chance at winning, then you probably shouldn't be doing serious, competitive pvp. I feel like the "no pots/no armour swapping" rules really aren't asking much of anyone.
Lemonade Stand does not, and will not, pot up and armour swap during premades.
Then why allow high rank enchants? Same argument applies: eventually everyone will be using similar enchants and the playing field will once again be leveled, except now you've effectively wasted people's AD and time.
Oh, it's because (1) only the very rich can afford high level enchants, (2) even the poor can afford pots, and (3) diminishing returns on stats would give the poor a marginally better return from pots. Ok, so game-rich don't want pots because it does little for them but lots for the game-poor.
Anyway, don't want to sidetrack. I like this idea and would be glad to help. I suggest including the raw data per Izatar's suggestion as well as some agreed-upon 'fairest of them all' algorithm.
Iyon the Dark
It's pretty simple to fight without armor swapping and pots. If you really feel like you need an advantage to beat someone you don't want to lose to, then maybe you shouldn't be fighting them in the first place.
or people that know how to play the game wisely instead of complaining.
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
And my point still stands: pots help those less geared (game-poor) more than those with gear due to (1) diminishing returns and (2) ease of access and affordability.
Iyon the Dark
Except that people also gear up to excel at things outside of premades, so it's not really a waste. And it's about putting reasonable bounderies. We shouldn't start throwing in more ways to waste people's money/time.
Sure, the pots will help out less geared players more, but they'll still help the geared players at the same time. And the geared team will still likely win out, because of, you know, gear. And pots. (I also suspect that most people who will participate in this kind of thing will be geared, so moot point anyway.)
Agreed with that. If cryptic ever has a ranking system, I wonder how they will treat pots. /derail
Iyon the Dark
Thanks for your input guys! Keep it coming
I totally suppor the ladder idea. And if my guild is willing to participate, i would gladly participate too.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Pots that give flat % increases such as crit severity or deflection chance disproportionately help those with better gear. Pots that give flat stat increases such as power, recovery, defense, deflect, etc disproportionately help those with worse gear. Most pots give flat stat increases.
For the purposes of top-end brackets/ranking, pots don't serve much of a purpose. Same-access, same-benefit, low cost = needless, (very small) cost to play. For general PVP, pots allow lesser-geared players to make up some of the difference.
Iyon the Dark
To prevent gear swapping and pot chugging, have each team initially stand either side of point 2 for a screen shot. Weapon and armor enchants have a distinctive appearance and you can see any active potions.
If any player is seen with different chants/active elixirs in-match after it starts, simply take another screenshot. This may be a little cumbersome till cryptic maybe implements a gear lock system, but it's simple and acts as a good deterrent.
If anyone is found breaking the rules, the opposing team auto-wins the match.
Happy pvping!
Screen Shots are very quick and easy to take during the game so if you see someone with a pot on, or with different weapon/armor enchant just snap a screen shot which can then be submitted to an Admin via the Ticket System.
From there the dispute will be handled by the admins and referees via a vote and then punishments will be dolled out. Punishments will come in the form of suspensions, exp. deductions or bans.
These situations are the kind of things we need feedback on! Feel free to pipe in on how you feel rule violations and punishments should be handled!
Thanks!!
Iyon the Dark
Please I would like to hear people's thoughts and ideas on this!
Simple enough. The leading team at the time of disconnect gets a value of "exp" depending on the current point value (more exp for a disconnect at 900 than 100). Then they can re-do a separate match if they'd like to.
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
Thing is, if you don't take a screen at start, and didn't have time to individually do an enchant check for each player (likely), then your first screen during the match along with a claim that they swapped doesn't hold much weight. In the middle of a heated fight ya might not be able to take a before and after screen either. So yeah, it's not a perfect solution but it's a start.
My thoughts on the matter is it should be handled how most fps leagues handle it. You play the game out; and count a loss as a loss. If the person can reconnect and get back in then they do so. There's no reason the opposing team should be penalized for someone disconnecting. At that point it becomes a strategic choice, do you take the person with more skill but with frequent disconnect issues or the less skilled person but maybe they have a better connection. It's all about risk management at that point.
And yes I've been on the side of someone disconnecting and have myself disconnected, and while it sucks it also keeps people honest. If it's a fluke thing, then prove it the next time you play that team. Keep it pure, keep it simple.
That's where I lean too. But this is an exceptional game when it comes to disconnects / crashes..
Iyon the Dark
After much thought and discussion, we are leaning in this direction as well. Now would be the time to present any counter arguments.
Also the issue of Team size needs to be discussed. We are thinking 7 members per team. This would allow the PvP community to "spread out", and allow the opportunity for more teams to participate in the ladder. We think 2 alts in addition to the core 5 members will be enough to account for people not being able to make it to a particular match. Of course which members play in which matches would be left up to the team completely, thus allowing for changes in comp to perhaps better counter another comp (Switching a DC for a HR for example)
We feel to make this strictly Guild vs. Guild would defeat the purpose of the Ladder (to have a more active PvP community aka: More people to fight)
Team members can be changed out pretty much at will, although a team would never be able to have more than 7 members, and there would have be SOME restrictions on how often you could change members. (would love some feedback on what people feel these restrictions should be).
Thanks!